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Newbie Student Mafia XXII - Page 11

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-Celestial-
Profile Joined September 2011
United Kingdom3867 Posts
August 09 2016 23:36 GMT
#1204
On August 10 2016 07:35 silentwarrior wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 10 2016 07:08 -Celestial- wrote:
On August 10 2016 06:53 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
A useful tip is that when someone is right all the time when everyone else is wrong all the time, the guy that's right all the time is probably mafia.


Yup; one thing I picked up from live games in years gone by was basically along the lines of "wrong does not necessarily equal mafia". I tended to find people would always get hung up on people making wrong reads, especially in face-to-face sessions. Rather than thinking about why they were making that read and whether it was for garbage reasons.

I was going to post that earlier in big letters but kinda felt that if I posted something so blatant people would think I was trying to wriggle out of being accused in a crappy way.

Then again I wish that someone, ANYONE, who had tried to pick me for scum had actually tried to pick a hole in my arguments anywhere rather than just going "yep, scum". There was a reason I tried to provide a basis for all my reads for people to evaluate.


This is suprising to read since the biggest reason I didn't like you in the game was because you went after people you disagreed with or who had done a mislynch or the like. I even said so in-game several times.


???

Disagreeing with people or doing mislynches is never enough reason to scum them by itself. What it IS enough to do is to get me looking at their filter again to see if I either missed something that they brought up about that person, or to see if their tone and/or reasoning doesn't hold up too well. Which I did, repeatedly, every time someone did something odd. (Something of an advantage over live play, you have filters to double-check back on.)

Problem was with like a third of the game being basically afk for big chunks and another third of the game posting super weirdly all over the place I kept running into scummy things in basically EVERYONE'S filter. Which made it near impossible to draw decisive conclusions. Once or twice when doing some analysis I actually ended up with the conclusion that EVERYONE IN THE GAME was scum. Which necessitated me starting over with the filtering and analysis because it was obviously impossible for that to be the case.

I mean...its literally all in my read posts and filter dives. I don't know what to say here. Did you read them? I mean, did anyone read them, considering I don't think anyone challenged any of it? :-\
"Protoss simultaneously feels unbeatably strong and unwinnably weak." - kcdc
-Celestial-
Profile Joined September 2011
United Kingdom3867 Posts
August 09 2016 23:42 GMT
#1205
On August 10 2016 08:36 -Celestial- wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 10 2016 07:35 silentwarrior wrote:
On August 10 2016 07:08 -Celestial- wrote:
On August 10 2016 06:53 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
A useful tip is that when someone is right all the time when everyone else is wrong all the time, the guy that's right all the time is probably mafia.


Yup; one thing I picked up from live games in years gone by was basically along the lines of "wrong does not necessarily equal mafia". I tended to find people would always get hung up on people making wrong reads, especially in face-to-face sessions. Rather than thinking about why they were making that read and whether it was for garbage reasons.

I was going to post that earlier in big letters but kinda felt that if I posted something so blatant people would think I was trying to wriggle out of being accused in a crappy way.

Then again I wish that someone, ANYONE, who had tried to pick me for scum had actually tried to pick a hole in my arguments anywhere rather than just going "yep, scum". There was a reason I tried to provide a basis for all my reads for people to evaluate.


This is suprising to read since the biggest reason I didn't like you in the game was because you went after people you disagreed with or who had done a mislynch or the like. I even said so in-game several times.


???

Disagreeing with people or doing mislynches is never enough reason to scum them by itself. What it IS enough to do is to get me looking at their filter again to see if I either missed something that they brought up about that person, or to see if their tone and/or reasoning doesn't hold up too well. Which I did, repeatedly, every time someone did something odd. (Something of an advantage over live play, you have filters to double-check back on.)

Problem was with like a third of the game being basically afk for big chunks and another third of the game posting super weirdly all over the place I kept running into scummy things in basically EVERYONE'S filter. Which made it near impossible to draw decisive conclusions. Once or twice when doing some analysis I actually ended up with the conclusion that EVERYONE IN THE GAME was scum. Which necessitated me starting over with the filtering and analysis because it was obviously impossible for that to be the case.

I mean...its literally all in my read posts and filter dives. I don't know what to say here. Did you read them? I mean, did anyone read them, considering I don't think anyone challenged any of it? :-\



In fact in at least some cases I was doing the exact opposite, not liking people's reads but liking the reason for it and the tone behind it.
"Protoss simultaneously feels unbeatably strong and unwinnably weak." - kcdc
-Celestial-
Profile Joined September 2011
United Kingdom3867 Posts
August 09 2016 23:48 GMT
#1206
Checked silent's and my own filter briefly.

"I even said so in-game several times."

As far as I can tell every time you 'called me out' for this you were actually just ignoring parts of my reasoning behind my reads. :-\
"Protoss simultaneously feels unbeatably strong and unwinnably weak." - kcdc
-Celestial-
Profile Joined September 2011
United Kingdom3867 Posts
August 10 2016 00:06 GMT
#1207
Okay had time to take a look through obs QT.

To address a thing from there (because I'm not sure if I should be posting in there now even if the game is over). Which I already mentioned in-thread but might have been missed:

rsoultin in post 89 - if you're talking about what I think you're talking about the mislynch argument with the association flip was basically a massive derp on my part.

I counted as follows:
9 players, 6 town, 3 mafia

6-3

Lose one N2.

5-3
Lynch Lunatic D3.

5-2

Then I COMPLETELY FORGOT ABOUT THE NIGHT KILL FOR N3. Which meant I thought "oh great, a mislynch and a NK and we're still at 3-2 by D5".

I wasn't scared of a D4 mislynch because it would end the game (because I didn't think it would end the game), I was scared of a D4 mislynch that wasn't actually me but that would put me as top candidate for mislynch on D5 (when I thought a mislynch would end the game) because I wasn't 100% sure I'd be able to keep activity up for D5 since I go on holiday this Friday and have to prepare and stuff. So I couldn't be certain I'd be about to fight a potential mislynch. I'd have rather been mislynched on D4 where it wasn't fatal for town, and hope that my flip would be informative for some of the remaining town.

As it was that whole argument was academic because I'd totally miscounted. X-D
"Protoss simultaneously feels unbeatably strong and unwinnably weak." - kcdc
-Celestial-
Profile Joined September 2011
United Kingdom3867 Posts
August 10 2016 15:39 GMT
#1228
All of this kinda feeds into how bad activity overall was though. KSC was notably terrible for it, and so is worth pointing out, but across the board it was incredibly weak. Hell, two of the people alive at the end had three page filters. Three pages for four day phases, not even a page per day.

Whole thread was pretty much inactive as hell. It was driving me to utter madness to be honest. Poorly played game by all of us townside; BTDT probably would have and should have clutched this. Game was a mafia win in all but the final score.
"Protoss simultaneously feels unbeatably strong and unwinnably weak." - kcdc
-Celestial-
Profile Joined September 2011
United Kingdom3867 Posts
August 10 2016 16:04 GMT
#1229
On August 11 2016 00:38 beentheredonethat wrote:
Okay. I'm back home on a computer. My daughter is still in the hospital but her mum's with her and she's doing fine.

Yesterday when we were swimming, she fell pretty hard on the back of her head, and later when she was in bed, she started puking, so we decided to go to the hospital because we feared a concussion. And indeed, doctors said she has a minor concussion and they wanted to keep her for 48 hours as a routine. She puked once more through the night but after that, all was fine. I didn't get to sleep much for several reasons, the machines running in the room were loud and woke me up regularly (although my daughter slept all throughout the night without disturbance) and I was highly worried about her since it was the first hospital stay I've ever had with my child (well, besides birth).

However today she already felt much better and doctors said she's doing great. No fever, no high/low blood pressure, good reactions to light and so on, so yeah, another stay at night for her. Mum took over an hour ago and I'm finally home.


That's a big relief. All the best to you and yours.


First off, the hosting. I want to start with a big thank you to the hosts for the effort that was put in. On the other hand, there are some points that I want to raise as I did not like them:

The vote counts were rather bad. Although the game was going slowly, I felt like there were so few vote counts that I asked myself if the hosts were even bothering about the game.

Host questions such as the one I imposed were not answered, not even mentioned.

EoD/EoNs were treated very lackluster and weren't on time.

As a solution for that, I suggest to include one or two more co-hosts to the game with differing timezones.


Actually yes, these are fair things to start to bring up.

Personally I was really bothered by the timing of EoDs and EoNs being kinda inconsistent. I don't know if this was a communication problem between the hosts or what. All I know is that the one time I've co-hosted so far the three of us were in chat on the google document that we were using to track the game typically like a solid half hour to an hour before an end phase. So as to coordinate things and make things happen exactly on time.

The other thing I'd like to bring up is that the vote counts didn't always match the actual number of people voting on someone. Which got very confusing sometimes and led to some fairly bizarre things like this:
On August 05 2016 06:46 Shapelog wrote:
Day 2 vote count

Lunaticman (6): Rels, slientwarrior, beentheredonethat, -celestial-, scott31337, Skynx, KelsierSC
Scott31337 (1): J Roc, lunaticman
KelsierSC (1): lunaticman
SlientWarrior (0):: Skynx

Not voting (3): MoosyDoosy,

Currently Lunaticman is set to be lynched.

The deadline is Thursday, Aug 04 11:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00). You have to vote!


Lunatic apparently has 6 votes on him but there are seven names there. Also Skynx is voting Silent, but the counter is at 0. A minor thing, but very easy to fix so...it felt a bit like the hosts were otherwise distracted and thus things like this were slipping through.


Regarding the game:
I feel like I over-bussed. I started D1 with putting shade on Luna already, also Moosy. My goal was to play as a standalone scummer, also since I felt like we wouldn't have much coordination given we had MoosyDoosy on the team who, to me, is a rather unreliant teammate. His modkill even confirmed that theory and I will be very carefully making the decision if I ever join a game with him again.

The general inactivity level was poor and I have to admit that I played part in that. I didn't post too much too, although I was heavily reading via mobile. I decided to not do anything around EoD1 since I knew we had town trains only. D2, I wanted to start leading town a bit but didn't manage to pull up the motivation to even try.

After the modkill/warning spree that introduced the endgame, I really felt motivated to do stuff though. I knew that Celestial had already started to un-scumread me so I put in heavy effort. I knew that Celest, who's a high volume poster on his own, would take that as a town indicator so I felt kinda save leaving him alive. Killing Skynx over Celest/Silent was a choice that I made after having a skype discussion with my coach, Artanis. Kudos and a big thank you to Artanis at this point. Killing Skynx over Celest wouldn't make any sense as scum and I highly hoped people would take the Skynx kill as a tinfoil Celestscum move, or as a scott/jroc kill.

Well. I'm not sure if I could've taken the win. But given that Celestial would've been my next kill and LYLO would've been Silent/Jroc or Scott, I think my chances were actually quite decent.

I won't sign up to a game with Kelsier though. General activity level was terrible anyways.


I don't know about the over-bussing thing. I mean it kept you alive quite well and you ended up heavily townread. It CAN be a risky strategy but it worked. Moosy's inactivity was basically a disaster for mafia team though.

Activity I mentioned above, yeah it was terrible. Although as mafia you shouldn't actually blame yourself for it. If everyone else is low-volume then it absolutely make sense to go low-volume yourself so as to blend in. Its the job of town to drive the game forward and to put pressure on mafia to do things, because mafia is more likely to slip up if they have to keep up with a lot of posting. As mafia you were merely taking advantage of the way the game was going.

When it came to endgame I'm honest in what I said the other page: if it'd have come down to you vs silent on D5 I would have voted you all day. If it'd come down to you vs J Roc then I'd have been far, far more suspicious; silent was obv town. J Roc was the scummiest person left to me other than scott for D4 but it felt like it'd be too easy to simply go scott then J Roc especially given how Onegu was tunneled literally all game on scott. So that'd have probably resulted in me massively filtering again (as much as I'd be able to because of the holiday) and could have gone either way for D5. The Skynx kill was good; to me it seemed like the absolute only play that a desperate scum!scott could make. However...it also felt too easy. I was super comfortable lynching scott but I had some tinfoil theories going on in the back of my mind that I never gave voice to; along the lines of "since its the ONLY reasonable play that a scum!scott can make...is it TOO obvious a play for scum!scott to actually make? And that makes him town? Maybe?" I dunno if I'd have nailed you with a shenanie D4 though if I'd eventually come to the conclusion that the move was SO obviously a scum move by scott that it couldn't possibly have been him actually making it, more likely I'd have flipped J Roc at that point as my next most likely scum candidate. My D4 lynch was almost certainly between him and scott.

Killing me next I think would have been a good move. Assuming the scott lynch went through you'd be left with J Roc who I don't think looked at anyone much except scott and silent who was super townie all game and had you as town. Onegu probably dies there unless he works a miracle on your filter. With me alive the last three alive would have either been me/you/silent or me/you/J Roc. As I said above in the former situation I always vote you and although silent was townreading you there was a chance of it not necessarily going your way (and your ONLY option there would be to try to lynch me, because silent was unlynchable). In the latter I had a tinfoil hat on so whilst it wasn't out of the question that you'd manage to get one of us two lynched it was less certain; especially if I managed to pick something out of your filter I really didn't like.

At least that's how it felt to me. Its where I was coming from.
"Protoss simultaneously feels unbeatably strong and unwinnably weak." - kcdc
-Celestial-
Profile Joined September 2011
United Kingdom3867 Posts
August 11 2016 03:29 GMT
#1241
On August 11 2016 09:56 Shapelog wrote:
Scoobydoo was Cele, Slient was shaggy, and Lunatic was the villain.


I have achieved all I want in life now. :3

Anyway I'm not sure there's too much to pick apart there. Its a pretty good overview I think.

Honestly I found the game intensely frustrating. I didn't mean to end up trying to lead town but with the sheer lack of anyone doing anything I just felt more and more that I needed to do SOMETHING to drive the game forward. Given the inactivity my reads were all over the place. But probably the biggest problem was because nobody actually really challenged my reads or any of my logic at any point I ended up kinda stuck in an echo-chamber a bit.

With nobody actually questioning my thoughts I had to rely on questioning myself. That's never as good as outside perspective which is always better as it provides new perspectives. Which meant that a lot of the time it was very difficult to correct myself when I was going down a wrong path. :-\
"Protoss simultaneously feels unbeatably strong and unwinnably weak." - kcdc
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