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On November 14 2015 23:25 kitaman27 wrote:
Riddle me this, if there were two spies on the second mission where did me and Rels coordinate how to avoid the double sabotage?
We chose to pass it, so there had to be some secret communication to avoid essentially loosing the game automatically, yet there was only one sabotage.
It's very rare for a scum team to upvote a double spy mission because of this reason.
thats a somewhat valid point but a very small point. you guys could have been impateint and happy with the way the game is going. When I play scum the faster I win the better because its hard to fake being town for a long period of time.
Kita what are your current reads after the last vote?
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It's kind of simultaneously funny and annoying that HTS is now saying I'm stretching things. Let's look at reality.
HTS's first argument against me was that my read progression regarding rayn/SL after the first fail didn't make sense. I already explained why it did, and rayn agreed. Here's how it went:
1) I heavily townread rayn, town leaned on SL
2) rayn heavily townread me, town leaned on SL
3) Mission failed
3) I still townread rayn, scumread SL (because that's the only logical conclusion there)
4) rayn still townreads me, scumreads SL (because that's the only logical conclusion there)
5) HTS first pushes rayn for unrelated things, then comes to the conclusion that rayn is town anyways when none of it makes sense
6) BUT then HTS says that I'm scum for my read progression there when it's the exact same as rayn's.....
7) WTF????!!!!!
Now HTS would already be likely scum for this, plus her vote record that's more terrible than anyone else's. But there's more, a lot more. It just gets worse. She starts nitpicking my every post that she can find something suspicious on in her imaginary world. It goes downhill until rayn called HTS's posts about me "literally bullshit" (100% agreed btw).
Perhaps the worst example was when I discussed with rayn about how this "might be our only chance to make it work" (before SL's auto-nomination came up). I was obviously talking about this nomination overall, not the current team. But HTS just latched on me supporting SL to be on the team (???) when I just clearly said right there that I didn't want him on the team. HTS continued pushing this angle for many pages, and even though she was shown wrong by me and others, she never dropped it. Instead she renewed her agenda of finding any possible bullshit reason to scumread me.
And now it's repeating. She's saying that I shouldn't have voted YES to the earlier team when I had clearly said that I preferred this to SL's auto-nomination, even if I had my doubts..... But it's no use talking to HTS really.
This will hopefully be my last post on this topic.
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it shouldnt be. you and hts need to fight it out if your town because shes always scum. If your town then your only hope to win the game is to fight her.
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On November 14 2015 23:19 sicklucker wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 23:13 Xatalos wrote:On November 14 2015 23:12 sicklucker wrote:On November 14 2015 21:08 Xatalos wrote:On November 14 2015 21:02 Vivax wrote:
Xata, who was the spy on the mission you issued? SL probably. I agree that rayn/Coag has the worst mission/vote record (besides HTS), but other things still point more to him being town (his balanced attitude to the game as opposed to his very aggressive/agenda-driven attitude as scum in VS, and his lack of care for getting modkilled etc.). SL also has things against him like first scumreading me, then suddenly townreading me when I put him on the mission with me (meaning he could easily sabotage the mission just by townreading me at that moment). ya you cant think this still if your town Explain RELS /SUPER/YOU/VIVAX/RYAN what do they have in common xata? + Show Spoiler +they all voted no on two teams that I was on and can not be on a scum team with me
I don't think me/Vivax are scum anyways, and Coag could well be town still. The only question mark is Rels, but he's clearly voted NO to fail teams anyway, so it's nothing conclusive. Besides you could be scum with someone else than Rels (like shockeyy/Artanis/HTS).
Can't say I see the "confirmed".
What would be your "dream team" right now?
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On November 14 2015 23:39 sicklucker wrote:
it shouldnt be. you and hts need to fight it out if your town because shes always scum. If your town then your only hope to win the game is to fight her.
It really should just be simple. Her reasons are very bad and mostly just factually untrue. Her voting record sucks so much. If she's not scum, I'm ready to take the blame post-game. As for you, I guess there's a possibility you're town, but it would mean Coag being scum and I still don't think that's the case.
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Oh, I'd also like to mention that just before the mission failed, HTS kept talking about how SL would be the spy there. Yet she somehow immediately townread SL after the fail............
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can you qoute such things
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Which posts? I guess I could if you wish to dwell more on this.
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On November 06 2015 07:45 Half the Sky wrote:
Shockey is townreading Superbia, Rels, Artanis and Kita, scumreads on rayn and Xatalos.
Null on everyone else. Probably means I don't have to worry about a spy Xatalos fooling us all, with the third scum being Superbia/Kita, Artanis/sicklucker per this association is a longshot.
This also means though I'm wrong on a townread though, and I'm now not sure whom without filter diving.
It's one of Superbia or Kita, Rels is either defending scum Kita or disassociating from Superbia.
If I had to tinfoil Kita, the former makes sense considering the early case on Xatalos. But now we have some queries on Rels. Hmmmm.
The problem is, if sicklucker is mafia, and Rels is using reverse psychology on us, then this whole thing is blown out of the water. But Ockham's razor indicates SL is town, so I think that's what I'm going to hold for now, unless something else indicates otherwise.
Random thoughts. Still on mobile, can't filter dive too easily.
SL is HTS's #2 suspect here after Rels.....
On November 06 2015 07:55 Half the Sky wrote:
Nah wait, Rels is downvoting the team, so nvm.
sicklucker is probably town. Forgot for a second.
Vote justified anyway just because Rels disagrees with the team.
On November 06 2015 08:24 Half the Sky wrote:
Independent of the vote, there's plenty to suggest Xatalos/rayn are town, so the main doubt was sicklucker. If the mission is sabotaged, it makes it pretty obvious where it'd be but then that also circles to the point raised as to why the next team is selected right away.
Townreading me/rayn.
On November 07 2015 08:37 Half the Sky wrote:
Alright, going into tinfoil rayn land - the first thing that jumps out at me was the "alternate strategy" of getting multiple scum on the team as opposed to the conventional strategy of trying to get the first mission to pass. I forget who accused rayn of mafia motivation but this was one potential point to raise against him.
On November 07 2015 08:43 Half the Sky wrote:Second point is the conflicting read on Superbia where he was nitpicking Xatalos over scum being at a disadvantage (paraphrasing) whereas Kita took the opposite position on this. Saying that Superbia was stretching it. Does it make sense for a town rayn to read Superbia that way? That's probably the first question to think hard on. We all know that when rayn is town, he's nitpicky over semantics. As mafia....I honestly don't remember. I know the rage level is the same, the last mafia game I recall (TL LXX before he replaced out) I don't recall a lot of nitpicking but I might need to refresh my memory, that game was in March. Ugh. Does anyone else recall any notable rayn scum games where he was close to replicate town play? First wave of reads: Show nested quote +On November 02 2015 18:21 raynpelikoneet wrote:Okay i am gonna stop this conversation now as it's waste of time. I think both of Superbia and Xatalos are town. I don't see any reason to think otherwise. Artanis and sicklucker said nothing alignemnt indicative. Rels and kitaman are suspicious. Rels because he is refusing to read people. kitaman because he is talking about setup which is a big no-no in this game unless you are scum and want to give advice to your teammates, like "this is something i would not recommend to do". And that's all he said, except for; I'd say people stating that they are happy that they didn't roll mafia typically increases their chances of being mafia, though I don't know if that actually holds true. So; "I think people who claim town are more likely to be scum, but i don't really know if that's true" hmmm... what?!?!
Putting some suspicion on rayn for a bit.. But it doesn't really work out too well, so next is me.... Even though SL was the main suspect of us 3 before, now he's off bounds somehow.
On November 08 2015 12:06 Half the Sky wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2015 12:00 ShoCkeyy wrote:On November 08 2015 11:57 Half the Sky wrote:
I anticipate I will be up until 0400 my time (or another hour and change from this post) so if anyone wants to talk, will do.
I answered Rels' questions, I got Artanis's earlier, if I missed yours, flag me. I read the last 10 pages and I don't think I missed any more.
Since Rels is up for debate, I'll prioritise him over the Xata meta analysis... How about you talk to me on how Xata and rayn both still town read each other and attack SL after the first mission? Actually re-read this - the quick answer to this is Xatalos being suspicious based on how quickly he did it. I brought this point up discussing sicklucker and I went into detail citing two posts where I suspected Xatalos could be scum for this. rayn I have a slightly different take which I was going to do a separate walkthrough. I was planning on doing a Xata meta read analysis - as mafia Xatalos has shallower reads (and the last post I just cited from him sorta scares me tbh. But long story shot I think a number of the things you cited with rayn is (mostly) NAI. I'll try and explain why.
Well, here's the main argument. That I decided SL was scum rather than rayn too "quickly". But rayn decided that even faster.... So ?????? It just doesn't make sense. I did at least entertain the possibility of rayn being scum, but I never really thought that was the case, and my filter dive confirmed my stance there. I was pretty sure it would be SL if the mission somehow failed.
On November 10 2015 03:08 Half the Sky wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2015 20:20 raynpelikoneet wrote:
So that was the only team that had a reasonable chance of going onto a mission.
##Nominate: raynpelikoneet, sicklucker, Half the sky, Shockeyy Show nested quote +On November 09 2015 21:31 Xatalos wrote:On November 09 2015 20:20 raynpelikoneet wrote:
So that was the only team that had a reasonable chance of going onto a mission.
##Nominate: raynpelikoneet, sicklucker, Half the sky, Shockeyy Quite a curious nomination. Another reaction test, or you don't think any other team can pass at this point......? Show nested quote +On November 09 2015 22:00 Xatalos wrote:On November 09 2015 21:52 raynpelikoneet wrote:
So like, Xatalos is stubbornly trying to push a team that has both me and him in it, when at least half of the people in the game think one of us might be scum.
HtS doesn't even read the game (or apparently any game she has ever played) so i don't see any reason i should pay any attention to what she posts.
Shockeyy hasn't made a single logical conslusion in this game, and Artanis now for some reason thinks Xatalos is mafia instead of sicklucker because of what Shockeyy says.
sicklucker doesn't wanna say yes to any team he doesn't pick himself, doesn't scumhunt and just hides behind his heuristic.
Superbia gave up a long time ago on this game.
So yeah, i am just gonna vote yes to any team that gets picked and/or wait for SL to present his team and if the team is all town we win -- or if the team fails i am gonna blame the dude who picked the team. Because that's the correct play, right sicklucker?
Basically this game cannot possibly go anywhere so i don't really see any reason why i should give any fucks rn. Tbh I think this nomination is probably the only one where we have a chance anymore.... But I guess quite a few scumread you now so I can understand why it seems difficult. Then should we just try voting for a team or something? More on why Xatalos is a spy - Mission 1: Xatalos, rayn, sicklucker - vote passed 5:4, mission failed. Rayn suggested a team of himself, sicklucker (TWO FROM THE ABOVE FAILED MISSION!!!!) me, and Shockey. And then Xatalos turns around and says "this nomination is the only one we have a chance"?????? When in HIS world he's town and we know for a FACT one of these two failed, he's saying we have a chance? Are you remotely kidding me?!?!?!?!? That is one atrocious response if I've ever seen one.
This is where it really starts going downhill. Read this post and the following posts to see why. Nothing fits this argument more than "absolute bullshit".
And the following new arguments are pretty much the same.
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Back.
On November 14 2015 22:51 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 22:38 Half the Sky wrote:On November 14 2015 22:17 Vivax wrote:On November 14 2015 22:11 Xatalos wrote:On November 14 2015 21:59 Vivax wrote:
I'll be tinfoiling hard before the next mission actually. Mostly about those who always voted yes on any failed mission (HTS, Rayn).
Xata is among them too.
I'm not that sure this was an all town team after all. Well, I won't deny that my voting record isn't the best one. I think it's still better than HTS/Coag though. HTS is especially bad because her YES votes have been to failing teams that she herself hasn't been part of, further pointing to her seeing a chance to pass some failing team in those situations (especially voting Rels to pass when she has mostly been scumreading Rels throughout the game). Fair point, I shall revisit HTS. But it would mean that I'm wrong on kita and that's kinda tough cause I always had a bad feeling about him. Tinfoil request accepted. Coag might as well not have voted anything and have defaulted to no on the last mission. Maybe spies missed a victory just cause he's a lazy bum lolz. Fidei said he didn't receive all the votes. Vivax In both cases I explained why I voted for the failed teams. And if it comes to it I can come up with the teams you need that leave myself off. The scumteam are Xata/Rels/Kita so its super easy to sort out the rest. What I suggest you look at is the rationale leading up to the failed votes. Xatalos should have never voted mission 2 on for all the reservations he had. Also extra town points to you (Vivax) for the smokescreen...not like you needed them. I have no idea tbf what Coagulation is doing though. Btw I did explain why I voted like I did. SL's auto-nomination would have been a surefire way to lose. At least that team had hope. But you haven't read my posts in ages anyway so whatever.
No, that was you not answering rayn's question as to Kita/Rels - AND RAYN CALLED YOU OUT ON THAT HIMSELF.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/497443-resistance-v-section-31?page=112#2225
YOU EVADED HIS QUESTION.
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On November 14 2015 22:55 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 22:38 Half the Sky wrote:On November 14 2015 22:17 Vivax wrote:On November 14 2015 22:11 Xatalos wrote:On November 14 2015 21:59 Vivax wrote:
I'll be tinfoiling hard before the next mission actually. Mostly about those who always voted yes on any failed mission (HTS, Rayn).
Xata is among them too.
I'm not that sure this was an all town team after all. Well, I won't deny that my voting record isn't the best one. I think it's still better than HTS/Coag though. HTS is especially bad because her YES votes have been to failing teams that she herself hasn't been part of, further pointing to her seeing a chance to pass some failing team in those situations (especially voting Rels to pass when she has mostly been scumreading Rels throughout the game). Fair point, I shall revisit HTS. But it would mean that I'm wrong on kita and that's kinda tough cause I always had a bad feeling about him. Tinfoil request accepted. Coag might as well not have voted anything and have defaulted to no on the last mission. Maybe spies missed a victory just cause he's a lazy bum lolz. Fidei said he didn't receive all the votes. Vivax In both cases I explained why I voted for the failed teams. And if it comes to it I can come up with the teams you need that leave myself off. The scumteam are Xata/Rels/Kita so its super easy to sort out the rest. What I suggest you look at is the rationale leading up to the failed votes. Xatalos should have never voted mission 2 on for all the reservations he had. Also extra town points to you (Vivax) for the smokescreen...not like you needed them. I have no idea tbf what Coagulation is doing though. Not really sure why you call kita scum when he has voted against every failing team while you have voted FOR every failing team without even being included in them  And on pretty shaky grounds such as voting in SL even though you suspected him to be scum at the time, and Rels whom you had scumread up to that point.
You conveniently forget that I re-read Rels' filter to see if I could see town motivation in his filter and I did prior to voting. I also made it VERY clear what votes I was putting in with the team prior to upvoting or downvoting and (IIRC most cases) why. It should be VERY easy to follow and if anyone wanted to stop me or protest my logic they should have. I made a mistake - and I admitted it right away - not fully tinfoiling Kita, but with Rels on the team, it would have been a moot point anyways.
The other funny thing is that you and Rels are pushing the same angle, relying on the voting records (and hyperfocusing on them) and pretty much nothing else. That is a red flag, because it is not the only thing that comprises this game. Like I have said before if people feel my votes disqualify me and they don't understand my explanations or my re-evaluations, I will come up with teams without me to achieve the victory for town.
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On November 14 2015 23:25 kitaman27 wrote:
Riddle me this, if there were two spies on the second mission where did me and Rels coordinate how to avoid the double sabotage?
We chose to pass it, so there had to be some secret communication to avoid essentially loosing the game automatically, yet there was only one sabotage.
It's very rare for a scum team to upvote a double spy mission because of this reason.
No coordination is needed. If I recall correctly, it was also discussed prior to the game that the spy at/closer to the top of the list would be the one to pull it off. It was hashed out by Artanis and rayn. Posts #67 and #69 of the thread.
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On November 15 2015 00:50 Xatalos wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2015 07:45 Half the Sky wrote:
Shockey is townreading Superbia, Rels, Artanis and Kita, scumreads on rayn and Xatalos.
Null on everyone else. Probably means I don't have to worry about a spy Xatalos fooling us all, with the third scum being Superbia/Kita, Artanis/sicklucker per this association is a longshot.
This also means though I'm wrong on a townread though, and I'm now not sure whom without filter diving.
It's one of Superbia or Kita, Rels is either defending scum Kita or disassociating from Superbia.
If I had to tinfoil Kita, the former makes sense considering the early case on Xatalos. But now we have some queries on Rels. Hmmmm.
The problem is, if sicklucker is mafia, and Rels is using reverse psychology on us, then this whole thing is blown out of the water. But Ockham's razor indicates SL is town, so I think that's what I'm going to hold for now, unless something else indicates otherwise.
Random thoughts. Still on mobile, can't filter dive too easily. SL is HTS's #2 suspect here after Rels..... Show nested quote +On November 06 2015 07:55 Half the Sky wrote:
Nah wait, Rels is downvoting the team, so nvm.
sicklucker is probably town. Forgot for a second. Vote justified anyway just because Rels disagrees with the team. Show nested quote +On November 06 2015 08:24 Half the Sky wrote:
Independent of the vote, there's plenty to suggest Xatalos/rayn are town, so the main doubt was sicklucker. If the mission is sabotaged, it makes it pretty obvious where it'd be but then that also circles to the point raised as to why the next team is selected right away. Townreading me/rayn. Show nested quote +On November 07 2015 08:37 Half the Sky wrote:
Alright, going into tinfoil rayn land - the first thing that jumps out at me was the "alternate strategy" of getting multiple scum on the team as opposed to the conventional strategy of trying to get the first mission to pass. I forget who accused rayn of mafia motivation but this was one potential point to raise against him. Show nested quote +On November 07 2015 08:43 Half the Sky wrote:Second point is the conflicting read on Superbia where he was nitpicking Xatalos over scum being at a disadvantage (paraphrasing) whereas Kita took the opposite position on this. Saying that Superbia was stretching it. Does it make sense for a town rayn to read Superbia that way? That's probably the first question to think hard on. We all know that when rayn is town, he's nitpicky over semantics. As mafia....I honestly don't remember. I know the rage level is the same, the last mafia game I recall (TL LXX before he replaced out) I don't recall a lot of nitpicking but I might need to refresh my memory, that game was in March. Ugh. Does anyone else recall any notable rayn scum games where he was close to replicate town play? First wave of reads: On November 02 2015 18:21 raynpelikoneet wrote:Okay i am gonna stop this conversation now as it's waste of time. I think both of Superbia and Xatalos are town. I don't see any reason to think otherwise. Artanis and sicklucker said nothing alignemnt indicative. Rels and kitaman are suspicious. Rels because he is refusing to read people. kitaman because he is talking about setup which is a big no-no in this game unless you are scum and want to give advice to your teammates, like "this is something i would not recommend to do". And that's all he said, except for; I'd say people stating that they are happy that they didn't roll mafia typically increases their chances of being mafia, though I don't know if that actually holds true. So; "I think people who claim town are more likely to be scum, but i don't really know if that's true" hmmm... what?!?! Putting some suspicion on rayn for a bit.. But it doesn't really work out too well, so next is me.... Even though SL was the main suspect of us 3 before, now he's off bounds somehow. Show nested quote +On November 08 2015 12:06 Half the Sky wrote:On November 08 2015 12:00 ShoCkeyy wrote:On November 08 2015 11:57 Half the Sky wrote:
I anticipate I will be up until 0400 my time (or another hour and change from this post) so if anyone wants to talk, will do.
I answered Rels' questions, I got Artanis's earlier, if I missed yours, flag me. I read the last 10 pages and I don't think I missed any more.
Since Rels is up for debate, I'll prioritise him over the Xata meta analysis... How about you talk to me on how Xata and rayn both still town read each other and attack SL after the first mission? Actually re-read this - the quick answer to this is Xatalos being suspicious based on how quickly he did it. I brought this point up discussing sicklucker and I went into detail citing two posts where I suspected Xatalos could be scum for this. rayn I have a slightly different take which I was going to do a separate walkthrough. I was planning on doing a Xata meta read analysis - as mafia Xatalos has shallower reads (and the last post I just cited from him sorta scares me tbh. But long story shot I think a number of the things you cited with rayn is (mostly) NAI. I'll try and explain why. Well, here's the main argument. That I decided SL was scum rather than rayn too "quickly". But rayn decided that even faster.... So ?????? It just doesn't make sense. I did at least entertain the possibility of rayn being scum, but I never really thought that was the case, and my filter dive confirmed my stance there. I was pretty sure it would be SL if the mission somehow failed. Show nested quote +On November 10 2015 03:08 Half the Sky wrote:On November 09 2015 20:20 raynpelikoneet wrote:
So that was the only team that had a reasonable chance of going onto a mission.
##Nominate: raynpelikoneet, sicklucker, Half the sky, Shockeyy On November 09 2015 21:31 Xatalos wrote:On November 09 2015 20:20 raynpelikoneet wrote:
So that was the only team that had a reasonable chance of going onto a mission.
##Nominate: raynpelikoneet, sicklucker, Half the sky, Shockeyy Quite a curious nomination. Another reaction test, or you don't think any other team can pass at this point......? On November 09 2015 22:00 Xatalos wrote:On November 09 2015 21:52 raynpelikoneet wrote:
So like, Xatalos is stubbornly trying to push a team that has both me and him in it, when at least half of the people in the game think one of us might be scum.
HtS doesn't even read the game (or apparently any game she has ever played) so i don't see any reason i should pay any attention to what she posts.
Shockeyy hasn't made a single logical conslusion in this game, and Artanis now for some reason thinks Xatalos is mafia instead of sicklucker because of what Shockeyy says.
sicklucker doesn't wanna say yes to any team he doesn't pick himself, doesn't scumhunt and just hides behind his heuristic.
Superbia gave up a long time ago on this game.
So yeah, i am just gonna vote yes to any team that gets picked and/or wait for SL to present his team and if the team is all town we win -- or if the team fails i am gonna blame the dude who picked the team. Because that's the correct play, right sicklucker?
Basically this game cannot possibly go anywhere so i don't really see any reason why i should give any fucks rn. Tbh I think this nomination is probably the only one where we have a chance anymore.... But I guess quite a few scumread you now so I can understand why it seems difficult. Then should we just try voting for a team or something? More on why Xatalos is a spy - Mission 1: Xatalos, rayn, sicklucker - vote passed 5:4, mission failed. Rayn suggested a team of himself, sicklucker (TWO FROM THE ABOVE FAILED MISSION!!!!) me, and Shockey. And then Xatalos turns around and says "this nomination is the only one we have a chance"?????? When in HIS world he's town and we know for a FACT one of these two failed, he's saying we have a chance? Are you remotely kidding me?!?!?!?!? That is one atrocious response if I've ever seen one. This is where it really starts going downhill. Read this post and the following posts to see why. Nothing fits this argument more than "absolute bullshit". And the following new arguments are pretty much the same.
Alright, to answer these points.
1 First your "vote justified...." doesn't account for the fact I townread you up to that point (first sentence of quoted post, I had reason to townread you anyhow). Additionally, rayn made the same point that scummy people wanted sicklucker out for Rels. So what on that note alone made him more town than myself making the same point?
2 It would be negligent to not question potential scum motives on rayn after the failture. Did I push them? No. Kita answered the questions (or someone did) and if there's no mafia motivation, of course I'd drop them. I wanted discussion and I wasn't going to push rayn unless there was actually evidence of such a mindset. It is a town tell to express some scepticism which is what I did. I said it before (post 1850).
It is a known fact for anyone familiar with rayn that rayn does not take well to being scumread or to me doubting him in any way. I did it, it didn't check out, I moved on. rayn suspecting me does not mean he's right, nor does it mean I'm scum. He was wrong on me in Titanic (and got mislynched for it, mafia took advantage of my tunnel on rayn) and he was wrong on me here.
3 rayn townreading you (and stickling to it) is the type of thing he will do, he has his one way of thinking - many players agree on this - and I know he said a few times early on "Xatalos is confirmed town" (erroneously). Anyways, he is the type of player who doesn't change his reads much if he thinks the player is being "logical" enough. At that point in time, he was scumreading both Shockey and myself pretty hard, and did not change his reads on us at any point in the game until he was modkilled. I know the very last thing he said about both of us was that (paraphrasing) "and I keep coming back to how Shockey and HTS are so scummy because of everything they post..."
.....but this is because rayn plays the game very different from either of us so he will say things like that.
The meta expectations for both of you are different because you play the game differently and this is the same argument I made in defence of sicklucker.
Using a different example, Artanis is/was scumreading you for not re-evaluating on me. The biggest difference between you and rayn is that rayn will not re-evaluate if he feels there are more scummy townies. And that is typical town rayn. (And I know I'm not the only one who said this either.)
4 Regarding the last quote I told Rels (because I beleive he queried me on it too) that it was possible I could have misunderstood you regarding the first mission and I spliced the words for a double take. At this point in time I am pushing you harder on Mission #2 (posts 2363/(my 6000th post)/2990). You cast doubt on sicklucker and myself upvoting the team, and took attention off your own scummates. THAT IS MAFIA MOTIVATED.
5 A few other people drew into question your reads - #2361 and 2362. I keep forgetting those posts.
Finally, again, if people are so scared of me, I can come up with 4- and 5-player teams without myself on it that suit the town agenda. You (from your recent posts) can not.
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Yo folks. Sry I don't have time to play due to this fucking attack. My take on the vote:
On November 14 2015 09:11 Tictock wrote:
Day 3
ShoCkeyy's Nomination (Shockey, Vivax, Half the Sky, sicklucker)
Vote Result
Half the Sky - YES
Xatalos - NO
Artanis[Xp] - YES
Coagulation - NO
ShoCkeyy - YES
Rels - NO
sicklucker - YES
kitaman27 - NO
Vivax - NO
MISSION IS REJECTED
Day 3
Rels's Nomination Phase
Phase will end in at 23:00 GMT (+00:00) on 14 November 2015.
This was a bit rushed as I'm posting via mobile, will fix it up later. Not all votes were sent to me so if there was a mistake please PM myself or Fidei and we will get it fixed asap.
Apologies for the delay
Vivax could have voted YES to a team containing himself. Hell, he said he would vote YES but didn't for some reason. I think that makes him confirmed town.
Vivax, name a team and I'll probably nominate it when I come back tonight.
I didn't read anything from today so this might be stupid but whatever.
Anyway I'm with my family so see you later.
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On November 14 2015 23:25 kitaman27 wrote:
Riddle me this, if there were two spies on the second mission where did me and Rels coordinate how to avoid the double sabotage?
We chose to pass it, so there had to be some secret communication to avoid essentially loosing the game automatically, yet there was only one sabotage.
It's very rare for a scum team to upvote a double spy mission because of this reason.
everyone knows the top spy on the playerlist sabotages. thats not a riddle and spys dont avoid going two deep.
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On November 15 2015 01:41 Half the Sky wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2015 00:50 Xatalos wrote:On November 06 2015 07:45 Half the Sky wrote:
Shockey is townreading Superbia, Rels, Artanis and Kita, scumreads on rayn and Xatalos.
Null on everyone else. Probably means I don't have to worry about a spy Xatalos fooling us all, with the third scum being Superbia/Kita, Artanis/sicklucker per this association is a longshot.
This also means though I'm wrong on a townread though, and I'm now not sure whom without filter diving.
It's one of Superbia or Kita, Rels is either defending scum Kita or disassociating from Superbia.
If I had to tinfoil Kita, the former makes sense considering the early case on Xatalos. But now we have some queries on Rels. Hmmmm.
The problem is, if sicklucker is mafia, and Rels is using reverse psychology on us, then this whole thing is blown out of the water. But Ockham's razor indicates SL is town, so I think that's what I'm going to hold for now, unless something else indicates otherwise.
Random thoughts. Still on mobile, can't filter dive too easily. SL is HTS's #2 suspect here after Rels..... On November 06 2015 07:55 Half the Sky wrote:
Nah wait, Rels is downvoting the team, so nvm.
sicklucker is probably town. Forgot for a second. Vote justified anyway just because Rels disagrees with the team. On November 06 2015 08:24 Half the Sky wrote:
Independent of the vote, there's plenty to suggest Xatalos/rayn are town, so the main doubt was sicklucker. If the mission is sabotaged, it makes it pretty obvious where it'd be but then that also circles to the point raised as to why the next team is selected right away. Townreading me/rayn. On November 07 2015 08:37 Half the Sky wrote:
Alright, going into tinfoil rayn land - the first thing that jumps out at me was the "alternate strategy" of getting multiple scum on the team as opposed to the conventional strategy of trying to get the first mission to pass. I forget who accused rayn of mafia motivation but this was one potential point to raise against him. On November 07 2015 08:43 Half the Sky wrote:Second point is the conflicting read on Superbia where he was nitpicking Xatalos over scum being at a disadvantage (paraphrasing) whereas Kita took the opposite position on this. Saying that Superbia was stretching it. Does it make sense for a town rayn to read Superbia that way? That's probably the first question to think hard on. We all know that when rayn is town, he's nitpicky over semantics. As mafia....I honestly don't remember. I know the rage level is the same, the last mafia game I recall (TL LXX before he replaced out) I don't recall a lot of nitpicking but I might need to refresh my memory, that game was in March. Ugh. Does anyone else recall any notable rayn scum games where he was close to replicate town play? First wave of reads: On November 02 2015 18:21 raynpelikoneet wrote:Okay i am gonna stop this conversation now as it's waste of time. I think both of Superbia and Xatalos are town. I don't see any reason to think otherwise. Artanis and sicklucker said nothing alignemnt indicative. Rels and kitaman are suspicious. Rels because he is refusing to read people. kitaman because he is talking about setup which is a big no-no in this game unless you are scum and want to give advice to your teammates, like "this is something i would not recommend to do". And that's all he said, except for; I'd say people stating that they are happy that they didn't roll mafia typically increases their chances of being mafia, though I don't know if that actually holds true. So; "I think people who claim town are more likely to be scum, but i don't really know if that's true" hmmm... what?!?! Putting some suspicion on rayn for a bit.. But it doesn't really work out too well, so next is me.... Even though SL was the main suspect of us 3 before, now he's off bounds somehow. On November 08 2015 12:06 Half the Sky wrote:On November 08 2015 12:00 ShoCkeyy wrote:On November 08 2015 11:57 Half the Sky wrote:
I anticipate I will be up until 0400 my time (or another hour and change from this post) so if anyone wants to talk, will do.
I answered Rels' questions, I got Artanis's earlier, if I missed yours, flag me. I read the last 10 pages and I don't think I missed any more.
Since Rels is up for debate, I'll prioritise him over the Xata meta analysis... How about you talk to me on how Xata and rayn both still town read each other and attack SL after the first mission? Actually re-read this - the quick answer to this is Xatalos being suspicious based on how quickly he did it. I brought this point up discussing sicklucker and I went into detail citing two posts where I suspected Xatalos could be scum for this. rayn I have a slightly different take which I was going to do a separate walkthrough. I was planning on doing a Xata meta read analysis - as mafia Xatalos has shallower reads (and the last post I just cited from him sorta scares me tbh. But long story shot I think a number of the things you cited with rayn is (mostly) NAI. I'll try and explain why. Well, here's the main argument. That I decided SL was scum rather than rayn too "quickly". But rayn decided that even faster.... So ?????? It just doesn't make sense. I did at least entertain the possibility of rayn being scum, but I never really thought that was the case, and my filter dive confirmed my stance there. I was pretty sure it would be SL if the mission somehow failed. On November 10 2015 03:08 Half the Sky wrote:On November 09 2015 20:20 raynpelikoneet wrote:
So that was the only team that had a reasonable chance of going onto a mission.
##Nominate: raynpelikoneet, sicklucker, Half the sky, Shockeyy On November 09 2015 21:31 Xatalos wrote:On November 09 2015 20:20 raynpelikoneet wrote:
So that was the only team that had a reasonable chance of going onto a mission.
##Nominate: raynpelikoneet, sicklucker, Half the sky, Shockeyy Quite a curious nomination. Another reaction test, or you don't think any other team can pass at this point......? On November 09 2015 22:00 Xatalos wrote:On November 09 2015 21:52 raynpelikoneet wrote:
So like, Xatalos is stubbornly trying to push a team that has both me and him in it, when at least half of the people in the game think one of us might be scum.
HtS doesn't even read the game (or apparently any game she has ever played) so i don't see any reason i should pay any attention to what she posts.
Shockeyy hasn't made a single logical conslusion in this game, and Artanis now for some reason thinks Xatalos is mafia instead of sicklucker because of what Shockeyy says.
sicklucker doesn't wanna say yes to any team he doesn't pick himself, doesn't scumhunt and just hides behind his heuristic.
Superbia gave up a long time ago on this game.
So yeah, i am just gonna vote yes to any team that gets picked and/or wait for SL to present his team and if the team is all town we win -- or if the team fails i am gonna blame the dude who picked the team. Because that's the correct play, right sicklucker?
Basically this game cannot possibly go anywhere so i don't really see any reason why i should give any fucks rn. Tbh I think this nomination is probably the only one where we have a chance anymore.... But I guess quite a few scumread you now so I can understand why it seems difficult. Then should we just try voting for a team or something? More on why Xatalos is a spy - Mission 1: Xatalos, rayn, sicklucker - vote passed 5:4, mission failed. Rayn suggested a team of himself, sicklucker (TWO FROM THE ABOVE FAILED MISSION!!!!) me, and Shockey. And then Xatalos turns around and says "this nomination is the only one we have a chance"?????? When in HIS world he's town and we know for a FACT one of these two failed, he's saying we have a chance? Are you remotely kidding me?!?!?!?!? That is one atrocious response if I've ever seen one. This is where it really starts going downhill. Read this post and the following posts to see why. Nothing fits this argument more than "absolute bullshit". And the following new arguments are pretty much the same. Alright, to answer these points. 1 First your "vote justified...." doesn't account for the fact I townread you up to that point (first sentence of quoted post, I had reason to townread you anyhow). Additionally, rayn made the same point that scummy people wanted sicklucker out for Rels. So what on that note alone made him more town than myself making the same point? 2 It would be negligent to not question potential scum motives on rayn after the failture. Did I push them? No. Kita answered the questions (or someone did) and if there's no mafia motivation, of course I'd drop them. I wanted discussion and I wasn't going to push rayn unless there was actually evidence of such a mindset. It is a town tell to express some scepticism which is what I did. I said it before (post 1850). It is a known fact for anyone familiar with rayn that rayn does not take well to being scumread or to me doubting him in any way. I did it, it didn't check out, I moved on. rayn suspecting me does not mean he's right, nor does it mean I'm scum. He was wrong on me in Titanic (and got mislynched for it, mafia took advantage of my tunnel on rayn) and he was wrong on me here. 3 rayn townreading you (and stickling to it) is the type of thing he will do, he has his one way of thinking - many players agree on this - and I know he said a few times early on "Xatalos is confirmed town" (erroneously). Anyways, he is the type of player who doesn't change his reads much if he thinks the player is being "logical" enough. At that point in time, he was scumreading both Shockey and myself pretty hard, and did not change his reads on us at any point in the game until he was modkilled. I know the very last thing he said about both of us was that (paraphrasing) "and I keep coming back to how Shockey and HTS are so scummy because of everything they post..." .....but this is because rayn plays the game very different from either of us so he will say things like that. The meta expectations for both of you are different because you play the game differently and this is the same argument I made in defence of sicklucker. Using a different example, Artanis is/was scumreading you for not re-evaluating on me. The biggest difference between you and rayn is that rayn will not re-evaluate if he feels there are more scummy townies. And that is typical town rayn. (And I know I'm not the only one who said this either.) 4 Regarding the last quote I told Rels (because I beleive he queried me on it too) that it was possible I could have misunderstood you regarding the first mission and I spliced the words for a double take. At this point in time I am pushing you harder on Mission #2 (posts 2363/(my 6000th post)/2990). You cast doubt on sicklucker and myself upvoting the team, and took attention off your own scummates. THAT IS MAFIA MOTIVATED.5 A few other people drew into question your reads - #2361 and 2362. I keep forgetting those posts. Finally, again, if people are so scared of me, I can come up with 4- and 5-player teams without myself on it that suit the town agenda. You (from your recent posts) can not.
Hm, so I assume you've dropped the earlier arguments by now then? It's just hard to tell because it's a continuous push where you switch arguments whenever you can, and kind of leave the earlier arguments hanging in there.
I think you said you haven't seen my towngame, so I'd say you're unqualified to talk about my towngame in any case. I usually stick to my reads as town, unless there's heavy reason to reconsider. Your vote record and push on me have kept being awful, so...
That latter argument "I took attention off my teammates" is just unflipped association. You just assume someone is scum and I'm scum when I'm not scumreading them (at least as much as you are). Not very convincing.
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Well it should be obvious to everyone else, but just in case, purposely leaving myself off, I would propose the following teams if I was leader.
Team of 4: Artanis/Vivax/sicklucker/Shockey (Shockey is switchable for Coag depending on how people feel)
Team of 5: Artanis/Vivax/sicklucker/Shockey/Coagulation
I strongly feel that rayn was town, but if people have had doubts on him respective of his voting record, I am confident in the other four.
I have nothing to hide.
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On November 15 2015 01:29 Half the Sky wrote:Back. Show nested quote +On November 14 2015 22:51 Xatalos wrote:On November 14 2015 22:38 Half the Sky wrote:On November 14 2015 22:17 Vivax wrote:On November 14 2015 22:11 Xatalos wrote:On November 14 2015 21:59 Vivax wrote:
I'll be tinfoiling hard before the next mission actually. Mostly about those who always voted yes on any failed mission (HTS, Rayn).
Xata is among them too.
I'm not that sure this was an all town team after all. Well, I won't deny that my voting record isn't the best one. I think it's still better than HTS/Coag though. HTS is especially bad because her YES votes have been to failing teams that she herself hasn't been part of, further pointing to her seeing a chance to pass some failing team in those situations (especially voting Rels to pass when she has mostly been scumreading Rels throughout the game). Fair point, I shall revisit HTS. But it would mean that I'm wrong on kita and that's kinda tough cause I always had a bad feeling about him. Tinfoil request accepted. Coag might as well not have voted anything and have defaulted to no on the last mission. Maybe spies missed a victory just cause he's a lazy bum lolz. Fidei said he didn't receive all the votes. Vivax In both cases I explained why I voted for the failed teams. And if it comes to it I can come up with the teams you need that leave myself off. The scumteam are Xata/Rels/Kita so its super easy to sort out the rest. What I suggest you look at is the rationale leading up to the failed votes. Xatalos should have never voted mission 2 on for all the reservations he had. Also extra town points to you (Vivax) for the smokescreen...not like you needed them. I have no idea tbf what Coagulation is doing though. Btw I did explain why I voted like I did. SL's auto-nomination would have been a surefire way to lose. At least that team had hope. But you haven't read my posts in ages anyway so whatever. No, that was you not answering rayn's question as to Kita/Rels - AND RAYN CALLED YOU OUT ON THAT HIMSELF. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/497443-resistance-v-section-31?page=112#2225YOU EVADED HIS QUESTION.
Well, I wasn't sure if I was going to vote or not yet when rayn asked that. I did talk more about my stance after that too. Not sure if I spelled out that I'd be going to vote YES, but I don't think it's always good to announce your vote for certain like that anyway (in case scum could possibly predict the results like Vivax suggested).
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On November 15 2015 01:53 Xatalos wrote:
Hm, so I assume you've dropped the earlier arguments by now then? It's just hard to tell because it's a continuous push where you switch arguments whenever you can, and kind of leave the earlier arguments hanging in there.
I think you said you haven't seen my towngame, so I'd say you're unqualified to talk about my towngame in any case. I usually stick to my reads as town, unless there's heavy reason to reconsider. Your vote record and push on me have kept being awful, so...
That latter argument "I took attention off my teammates" is just unflipped association. You just assume someone is scum and I'm scum when I'm not scumreading them (at least as much as you are). Not very convincing.
The point I tried to make and I did in my earlier post is that you failed to answer any question or take a stance on Kita or Rels prior to the team going up. "It's not the best and it's not the worst" simply means it's easier for you to evade accountability regardless of anyone's alignment. The answer you simply gave to rayn was poor irrespective of their alignments.
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EPT
