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yes i understand. but it was also answered in this game. 
if you missed it, it is only your problem.
Like yes i know LS made a bad call (wayyyy before) regarding the last night you rb'd yourself. But it was in line with his actions earlier in the game. The WORST thing someone can ever do as a host is to change their rules mid-game. He had told you the KP is delivered, therefore it is delivered all game, whatever it causes. tbh in this game it would caused nothing to have a delivered KP (nor would it have any affect - unless someone decides to rb their night kill sender, which is really stupid in the first place because it doesn't do anything... except for block the kill from going through if the KP is delivered)...
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On August 06 2015 05:34 raynpelikoneet wrote:
yes i know LS made a bad call
That's all I need you to say.
Thanks to the after-the-fact discussions between LS, GB, and myself, I was able to uncover WHY the call was wrong. And now that the why is understood, the bad call will not be repeated. And that's all that is important at this point: making sure that everyone is on the same page, so that the problem will not recur.
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Well to be honest you all SHOULD have been on the same page...
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Rayn, my point is: if you're hosting a newbie game and you see a newbie doing the most suicidable possible move is your duty to remind them that the shot won't go through.
I always had in mind that roleblocking self isn't possible because it uses the game mechanics to violate the game rules (shot not going through in a game mafia must shoot), which I consider cheating. It's abusive. If you have a rule that explicitly says Mafia can't skip a kill, game mechanics can't possibly overrule this.
And I can rant as much as I want in obs QT. It wasn't fair that the team had their scum partner killed over nothing, and it wasn't fair that noob got his kill roleblocked and therefore checked by the cop.
The fairness I'm saying here is not related to the host.
What is related to the host is the duty he has to make the rules clear. You will never ask for clarification if you think your interpretation of something is right. You're putting the blame on the "victim" here.
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On August 06 2015 05:48 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Well to be honest you all SHOULD have been on the same page...
Meaning that you think we should all have been together, on the WRONG page? I meant that going forward, everyone will be on the same (RIGHT) page. Everyone will know that the KP is factional, and will know why. But I do appreciate like a dozen straight posts of you being annoying for no real reason.
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Like, it should be my duty ALSO. That's why I apologised here too. I wasn't following the QT very closely. I couldn't keep up with it.
But the host saw it (and I didn't). He should have reminded him.
I think LS did wrong, which doesn't mean at all I'm mad at him or anything like that. But I think pointing out this will help him improve as a host
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Honestly I never encountered a scenerio where the mafia roleblocker wants to roleblock himself so I had to ask people about it by the time I got a answer I did try to post it but obviously n00bKing didn't see my answer till after the Day post T_T
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On August 06 2015 05:52 GlowingBear wrote:
Rayn, my point is: if you're hosting a newbie game and you see a newbie doing the most suicidable possible move is your duty to remind them that the shot won't go through.
I always had in mind that roleblocking self isn't possible because it uses the game mechanics to violate the game rules (shot not going through in a game mafia must shoot), which I consider cheating. It's abusive. If you have a rule that explicitly says Mafia can't skip a kill, game mechanics can't possibly overrule this.
And I can rant as much as I want in obs QT. It wasn't fair that the team had their scum partner killed over nothing, and it wasn't fair that noob got his kill roleblocked and therefore checked by the cop.
The fairness I'm saying here is not related to the host.
What is related to the host is the duty he has to make the rules clear. You will never ask for clarification if you think your interpretation of something is right. You're putting the blame on the "victim" here.
No GlowingBear. It is ONLY your job to remind your scumteam.
Like it was literally told to to the scumteam that the KP is delivered on N1.
The mafia team sent in DELIVERED KP on N1 and N2!!! How is anyone supposed to think they did "not understand how the KP works"?!?!?!? Like wtf are you guys even arguing about? Suddenly on N3 the scumteam just decided the KP is not delivered anymore....
There is nothing LS should have clarified at this point.
And for the record Barakos was always going to get lynched whatever he says after his set of posts.
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On August 06 2015 16:12 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2015 05:52 GlowingBear wrote:
Rayn, my point is: if you're hosting a newbie game and you see a newbie doing the most suicidable possible move is your duty to remind them that the shot won't go through.
I always had in mind that roleblocking self isn't possible because it uses the game mechanics to violate the game rules (shot not going through in a game mafia must shoot), which I consider cheating. It's abusive. If you have a rule that explicitly says Mafia can't skip a kill, game mechanics can't possibly overrule this.
And I can rant as much as I want in obs QT. It wasn't fair that the team had their scum partner killed over nothing, and it wasn't fair that noob got his kill roleblocked and therefore checked by the cop.
The fairness I'm saying here is not related to the host.
What is related to the host is the duty he has to make the rules clear. You will never ask for clarification if you think your interpretation of something is right. You're putting the blame on the "victim" here. No GlowingBear. It is ONLY your job to remind your scumteam. Like it was literally told to to the scumteam that the KP is delivered on N1. The mafia team sent in DELIVERED KP on N1 and N2!!! How is anyone supposed to think they did "not understand how the KP works"?!?!?!? Like wtf are you guys even arguing about? Suddenly on N3 the scumteam just decided the KP is not delivered anymore.... There is nothing LS should have clarified at this point. And for the record Barakos was always going to get lynched whatever he says after his set of posts.
See, you're saying that it should be known that kp is delivered and not factional. Okay. I, myself, am not arguing that.
But tell why Mafia would roleblock himself. That shouldn't even be possible in the rules (as I already explained it is cheating)
If you see the only Mafia sending a KP and roleblocking himself you won't think this guy got something wrong ESPECIALLY when it's a newbie game? It doesn't matter how many times it was stated that kp is delivered, you will realise that the message clearly didn't get to the player's knowledge when you see his actions in the game. You should not evaluate WHAT has been DISPLAYED but HOW the players are ACTING when you are dealing with this, IMO. In other words, I think a proper course of action by the host is to say something like "just a reminder: kp is delivered and you are not hitting someone tonight by taking those actions" instead of complying to those actions and saying "lol its your fault you did this because I've already said before" (I'm not saying LS did this, I'm saying that this is what you say is correct)
I think the host has an active job of helping newbies understanding the game. So yes, I don't think host should clarify things only when asked. I think it is their duty to clarify stuff when they see someone obviously got something wrong.
No, I'm not blaming LS for mafia's loss. Yes, I wasnt a good coach this game and I should've been guiding them more closely.
I'm arguing things for future games. My points are:
- Hosts needs to clarify the rules when they see someone in clear error and not just answer things when questioned
- Mafia self-blocking shouldn't be allowed and this should be explicitly displayed in model OP's from now on
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I am not arguing LS did not do anything wrong regarding the setup.
I agree that rules should be more clear from the beginning.
I am arguing it is never the host's job to tell the players what they should/should not do. This is what happens in LS' setup. If you roleblock yourself as the last mafia you do block your nightkill, because of what the roleblocker does.
I am arguing your team should have not made their own decisions on what the setup is (when it clearly isn't) and it was YOUR and ONLY YOUR job to tell them not to do that. Basically, as an advice, never assume something that is not there. In this case, ffs never assume something that is IN FACT CLEARLY STATED THE OTHER WAY AROUND ALREADY.
That's what i am saying. n00bKing shot himself in the foot because he somehow thought what he thinks is more true than what the host says. It's not an issue if the rules make sense or not. It has nothing to do with it. It is that the rules were clear, and he went against them because he thought they do not make sense. But that's irrelevant. The rules were clear. Period.
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Like if the mafia had something to complain about the KP, they should have done that when LS told them to "select a person to deliver the kill" on N1, instead of sending in delivered KP in two nights, then jsut decide on their own the KP is not delivered any more but factional instead because it suits them.
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
rayn is right, if the rules had been said before, it's absolutely not the host's prerogative (even in a newbie game) to interfere with a player's action, no matter how bad it might be.
That's the coach's job. That's why there are coaches.
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On August 06 2015 18:21 marvellosity wrote:
rayn is right, if the rules had been said before, it's absolutely not the host's prerogative (even in a newbie game) to interfere with a player's action, no matter how bad it might be.
That's the coach's job. That's why there are coaches.
+2
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Well, I think it's mainly coaches' job, but also hosts job especially in a newbie game.
As I said, I never thought Mafia could roleblock themselves, as it is cheating. The only person who can clarify this is the host. Actively clarifying the rules and mechanics is the duty of every host. Not just when asked.
I presume most of the hosts in TL Mafia has this mindset. If not, then I don't really care. I'm used to not win arguments here.
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On August 06 2015 16:12 raynpelikoneet wrote:
And for the record Barakos was always going to get lynched whatever he says after his set of posts.
Not sure why anyone (including myself!) bothers to still talk to you, when you post things like this. You sound completely ridiculous. It would not have taken much effort from Barakos to avoid the Noose, but even if he can't shake the votes with counterarguments, he can still make waves with a blue claim. As I pointed out earlier, if he claims Vigilante or Cop, the player who has the counterclaim wasn't even here to make it. And even if he gets lynched without drawing a counterclaim (which is extraordinarily unlikely) then simply by participating in the game, it affords Mage and myself opportunity to disassociate from him. Opportunity that we never had, when we had no way of knowing he had just up and quit the game. Barakos' early posts aren't what made him a liability, his refusal to play the game is what made him a liability.
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On August 06 2015 16:53 raynpelikoneet wrote:
n00bKing shot himself in the foot because he somehow thought what he thinks is more true than what the host says. It's not an issue if the rules make sense or not. It has nothing to do with it. It is that the rules were clear, and he went against them because he thought they do not make sense. But that's irrelevant. The rules were clear. Period.
Still no. It was just ONE page ago that I corrected you, and pointed out that none of this happened. You're just making shit up, and you continue to do it, after I already told you that you're wrong.
Night 1 Mage is talking about the plan for that Phase, and asks me "who delivers the kill?" But before I even get there to say anything, he catches himself. And tells me that I can ignore that post, saying "I forgot, KP appears to be factional." I also KNEW the KP was factional, because I had just played another game using this same ruleset, and it was specifically clarified during that game that the KP is factional. So it is perfectly natural for me to continue to assume that the KP is factional, since the rules say nothing to the contrary. "The rules were clear?" No, the rules were not clear. If the rules were clear, LS would not have erroneously thought that the ruleset used delivered KP, when it DOESN'T.
The solitary indication from LS that he thinks the ruleset uses delivered KP is this:
"You can post your night actions here with the following:
##Kill x with you sending someone if you don't choose someone I will rng it.
##Roleblock x"
That's it. That is anything but a loud & clear declaration that the ruleset does not use factional KP (and again, we know that it does). And since (as I already explained to you) I never saw that post, I have no reason at all to think that the ruleset will not continue to use factional KP, and every reason to think that it WILL continue to use factional KP. Never did GB or myself decide that what we thought of the rules is more important than what the host said, and never did we make a conscious decision to go against any rules, or go against anything the host had said about the rules. All that happened is the host made ONE incorrect assumption about the rules, said ONE thing that insinuates his interpretation, and that ONE thing that he said was overlooked by me.
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EPT
