EPTNewbie Student Mafia XIII - Page 134
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GlowingBear
Brazil12446 Posts
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GlowingBear
Brazil12446 Posts
On August 04 2015 08:10 geript wrote: I read this game mostly in passing, so take what I say with a grain of salt. I forget why I thought Barakos was a good lynch D1, but there was a really good reason that a bunch of people (even a vet or two) missed that someone had posted. Regardless, the result of his lynch (because it was so lopsided) should basically be ignored. It's both possible and probable that he was bussed so for the most part, no one should think that anyone on that wagon is town for being on or starting the wagon. The NK was a good choice, but in games where roleblocking a Veteran prevents their bulletproof vest from going off, then mafia should heavily consider "burying" the RB on the NK. The setup is random equally split between Medic and Veteran, but it's usually correct to err on the side of Veteran because Medics do crazy shit sometimes; or Medics guess wrong. Another good reason to "bury" the RB is because this setup states that RB's are notified and should the NK flip anything but Veteran, then you can have a plan for mafia to claim the RB for town cred later. The D2 lynch was really bad. I didn't keep notes, but I remember thinking that TickTock was almost assuredly town. That said, how both mafia treated this lynch was really terrible. It's fine to townread someone who's about to get lynched. But neither had a good reason for it and and both looked really terrible for it AND for not really organizing a counter wagon. The 5 off the wagon looked significantly more suspect than the 7 on the wagon. Somewhere around here, Ruxxar got into a big fight with n00bKing and MoosyDoosy stepped in to townshield his read. There's nothing wrong with any of this. However, how n00bKing approached the situation was not how a towny would whatsoever. He didn't want to really explain things and the explanations he gave were really piss poor. In addition, he was quite happy to let Moosy townshield the hell out of him while n00bKing proceeded to do practically nothing except continue to stir the pot between Mossy and Ruxxar. 99% of the time, Moosy is just a townie with a really bad read that he firmly believes in and n00bKing is mafia. Also fwiw, I think there were some pretty decent points made in cases against n00bKing this day (I can't remember whose were the best but I think disinformation, ruxxar and Rels all had some good points). D3 had a bunch of random things happen; not all of which I remember. But n00bking made a major mistake by not being on the nocturnemage wagon or not securing the sulfurous lynch. The 4-3-2 division where scum is lynched, generally means that mafia isn't on the wagon. So it basically stated that mafia was between Rels, disinformation, n00bKing and Ruxxar. Disinformation and Rels had both been really towny throughout the game. When you go back and look at the votes, Ruxxar's been wrong all game. Both n00bKing and NocturneMage were late on the D1 bus and then acted oddly around the D2 lynch. So the last mafia is probably n00bKing. Regarding N3. So mafia chose to roleblock himself and apparently forgot that the rules stated that KP was hand delivered. If I were the host, I would've let the KP go through because there isn't any potential setup with a town RB/JK/tracker so KP is essentially factional. Even still, mafia should've roleblocked the cop and shot him; he'll be dead and you can claim whatever the fuck you want (although claiming the RB there is pretty dumb because it will convince no one). I don't think it would've changed the outcome of the game because I find it hard considering thread sentiment and such that n00bKing wouldn't have been lynched; but he might have been able to avoid 1 day's worth of lynching. Either way, I'll be hanging out in the TLmafia teamspeak channel for a while if anyone want to talk about the game some more. Geript, in the other hand, mage was voting noob and refused to hammer sulfurus. This, objectively, draws connection between sulfurus and noob and distances noob and mage. I don't think it is that clear | ||
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GlowingBear
Brazil12446 Posts
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43266 Posts
The reasons for people to be mafia are usually really straightforward and easy. Do not overthink stuff. If you are wrong then well.. you are wrong. Then move on. I did not strongly scumread anyone in this game except for the scumteam and TicTock. I now after the game realize why i was wrong on TicTock but it has more to do with how he plays rather than what he actually says. He basically focuses on everything which leads him to well.. think everyone could be mafia. It makes you paranoid, and you will never get your message across. I have never understood what's the point of talking about 1% possibilities when the point of the game as town is to kill the people who have the biggest possibility of being mafia. That's where i think you went wrong and if i am honest i will most likely lynch that sort of play every game just because it does not achieve anything. I have no idea why i cut off the NM scumread. Probably because TicTock and n00bKing were more scummy. When someone says "i am hesitant to read them as town" when they have just given reasons why someone is town it shows a lack of commitment and fear. If you are town you can always go back and change your opinion on someone. That was the opposite. He had reasons to townread Rels, he didn't want to do it, and i can't find any other reason for it except for "i don't want to call a townie town". n00bKing was mafia because he argued mafia would not roleblock Rels. Guess what, mafia DID do that, or Rels is mafia and they rb'd noone (which is basically the same thing). The question is no more did mafia do that, it's why mafia did that. There was already a conclusion, yet he ignored the thing that was 100% true and argued it is not true. Also noone should be arguing anything about the factional/delivered KP. Because LS literally told the scumteam the KP is delivered. If the host says so, then it is so. If you don't like it it's your problem. | ||
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Breshke
Australia3749 Posts
Yes you will. You just need more time | ||
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n00bKing
United States1202 Posts
On August 05 2015 21:52 raynpelikoneet wrote: n00bKing was mafia because he argued mafia would not roleblock Rels. Guess what, mafia DID do that, or Rels is mafia and they rb'd noone (which is basically the same thing). The question is no more did mafia do that, it's why mafia did that. There was already a conclusion, yet he ignored the thing that was 100% true and argued it is not true. You apparently never read anything I wrote on the subject. I did not ever say that the Mafia would not roleblock Rels, and from the time he claimed the roleblock I basically shut down all efforts to attempt to get him lynched, because I argued that there would be no motivation for him to fake-claim the block, and we know that they didn't kill the same person they blocked, because no one died. And with you claiming Vet, it wouldn't make any sense for them to withhold the roleblock, instead of just blocking the kill target. All I ever *actually* said is that Mafia has reason not to roleblock Rels if *I* am on the team. That's it. I never said they would avoid roleblocking Rels if the team had ANY other makeup. So either you BADLY misremember or you were just never paying any attention at all. On August 05 2015 21:52 raynpelikoneet wrote: Also noone should be arguing anything about the factional/delivered KP. Because LS literally told the scumteam the KP is delivered. If the host says so, then it is so. If you don't like it it's your problem. I think you may be literally alone on that one. This setup uses factional KP, and if this host used this setup again, he would make sure that the rules make that explicitly clear. If anyone else uses this setup again, they should also make sure that the rules make it explicitly clear that the KP is factional and NOT delivered. I have not (at any point) tried to say that the host ruined the game, with the confusion. But to say that "no one should be arguing anything" about it is just simply wrong. Arguing about it is how the correct answer in this setup (KP is factional, not delivered) was discovered, and that will prevent any misunderstandings in the future. | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43266 Posts
I have an idea where LS says to your team "the KP is delivered". | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43266 Posts
On August 06 2015 01:21 n00bKing wrote: All I ever *actually* said is that Mafia has reason not to roleblock Rels if *I* am on the team. That's it. I never said they would avoid roleblocking Rels if the team had ANY other makeup. So either you BADLY misremember or you were just never paying any attention at all. Maybe i explained myself badly. You ignored the fact that actually happened and defended yourself purely based on "well you are all stupid i would never do that" when actually it is the most logical conclusion. You never went to the second most logical conclusion (still likely) that someone is trying to frame you as mafia. Basically you went on the subject with "i did not do this" instead of "what does this mean". | ||
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n00bKing
United States1202 Posts
On August 06 2015 01:54 raynpelikoneet wrote: I have no idea where it says "this setup used a factional KP". Still not paying attention. It doesn't clearly say that the setup uses a factional KP. That was specifically clarified, however, in the last game that used this setup. And will be specifically clarified in the rules, in any future game using this setup. Because we reasoned out why it is that the setup needs to use factional KP. If we hadn't had the discussions of whether the KP should be factional or not in this setup, it might not have been discovered why the KP is supposed to be factional. Now we know that it IS supposed to be, and we know WHY it is supposed to be, so there will be no future misunderstandings. | ||
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n00bKing
United States1202 Posts
On August 06 2015 01:59 raynpelikoneet wrote: Maybe i explained myself badly. You ignored the fact that actually happened and defended yourself purely based on "well you are all stupid i would never do that" when actually it is the most logical conclusion. You never went to the second most logical conclusion (still likely) that someone is trying to frame you as mafia. I can't ignore the fact that it happened and also stop trying to get Rels lynched. When I stop trying to get Rels lynched, that is proof that I'm not ignoring that it happened. What you're saying is not possible. And I see nothing logical about that second conclusion. Mafia would not roleblock Rels to frame me, because Rels being roleblocked makes me LOOK TOWN. That would be the worst frameup ever. On August 06 2015 01:59 raynpelikoneet wrote:Basically you went on the subject with "i did not do this" instead of "what does this mean". I participated in discussions where I theorized about why the Mafia team would have roleblocked Rels (or in other words, "what does this mean"). I'm not sure whether you don't remember them, or just didn't read them. I expect some of those discussions took place after you died, so that might help explain why you didn't check them out. I'll mention again that I will NOT try to say that I played well in this game. I stopped thinking through my posts after Barakos bailed on the team and set us adrift, and just typed whatever came to mind. I'm sure there were logical inconsistencies (and other flaws) in my posts, because I wasn't making sure there weren't. And I was also claiming to be doing a bunch of reading and analysis that I wasn't doing, so that would lead to other problems as well. So I'm sure I made mistakes. I just didn't make the mistakes you're talking about right here. | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43266 Posts
On August 06 2015 03:18 n00bKing wrote: Still not paying attention. It doesn't clearly say that the setup uses a factional KP. That was specifically clarified, however, in the last game that used this setup. And will be specifically clarified in the rules, in any future game using this setup. Because we reasoned out why it is that the setup needs to use factional KP. If we hadn't had the discussions of whether the KP should be factional or not in this setup, it might not have been discovered why the KP is supposed to be factional. Now we know that it IS supposed to be, and we know WHY it is supposed to be, so there will be no future misunderstandings. There is no "supposed to be". There is only what the host says. Past games have nothing to do with that. If i am a one-shot vigilante i am not going to argue i am in fact a two-shot, against the host, just because "the last game had a two-shot vigi and it was 100% balanced and well decided". Can you see what i am saying? This has nothing to do with what it should or should not be and how LS came to a conclusion. It has to do with the fact he LITERALLY said the KP is delivered. Then it is fucking delivered and i cannot know how this is so hard to understand for the people. On August 06 2015 03:26 n00bKing wrote: And I see nothing logical about that second conclusion. Mafia would not roleblock Rels to frame me, because Rels being roleblocked makes me LOOK TOWN. That would be the worst frameup ever. I kinda feel like you are talking in circles (like you were in the game aswell). So you are saying there is no other option in the game than that you are mafia based on the Rels being roleblocked, and now you are also, at the same time, arguing against it? Like there would literally be no reason to mafia to roleblock you as you were a suspect, to make you look more town, now would there?  | ||
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n00bKing
United States1202 Posts
Yes there is. This ruleset uses factional KP. And that wasn't just picked at random, there is a reason why this ruleset uses factional KP. Which helps explain why it was specifically clarified during the last game that the KP is factional. And through discussion in the Scum thread, we were able to determine what that reason is. So that now, no future host will erroneously ask the Mafia to select an attacker, when there is not an attacker. On August 06 2015 03:37 raynpelikoneet wrote: I kinda feel like you are talking in circles (like you were in the game aswell). So you are saying there is no other option in the game than that you are mafia based on the Rels being roleblocked, and now you are also, at the same time, arguing against it? I don't know what you're trying to say. At no time did I ever indicate that Rels being roleblocked could make me Mafia, either in-game or post-game. Rels being roleblocked makes me look Town. Mafia would not do it to "frame me." Mafia would do it only for other reasons, which I discussed at length during the game. | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43266 Posts
Alsa well played, you apparently outplayed the host with your team and coach. Good job. Obviously what you guys did matter more than what the host says. How stupid of me to think otherwise. | ||
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n00bKing
United States1202 Posts
On August 06 2015 04:19 raynpelikoneet wrote: Well you were mafia.... soo.... soo....what? On August 06 2015 04:19 raynpelikoneet wrote:Alsa well played, you apparently outplayed the host with your team and coach. Good job. And now (thanks to my team and coach) no future host will repeat the same error made by this host. So you're welcome. | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43266 Posts
If you do it in-game it just makes you look stupid. Or like, if you base your actions in game-onto what YOU think the game should be like instead of what it ACTUALLY is. | ||
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n00bKing
United States1202 Posts
On August 06 2015 04:38 raynpelikoneet wrote: If you have a reason to call out bad hosting or whatever do it after the game. I made no mention of it in this thread until after the game. In fact, I didn't even bring it up in this thread after the game either, and only corrected something that geript had said about me "forgetting" that the rules say the KP is delivered. They do not say that. On August 06 2015 04:38 raynpelikoneet wrote: Or like, if you base your actions in game-onto what YOU think the game should be like instead of what it ACTUALLY is. We're not talking about what I think. This isn't a matter of my opinion, or of someone else's opinion. Rather, as I said already: "This ruleset uses factional KP. And that wasn't just picked at random, there is a reason why this ruleset uses factional KP." And now that everyone understands that, there won't be any future misunderstandings. You're welcome. | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43266 Posts
You still went against what LS told you directly in the scum QT for some reason. There is nothing wrong about calling a mistake a mistake after the game, like you are doing here (because yes, i obviously understand what was the mistake in LS' part in the first place). But the fact is you - aswell as your coach afaik - did dishonor the guy who runs the game by making a decision based on NOT what his rules say instead of what you think the rules say (which they didn't). Someone being wrong does not allow that. People make mistakes and bad decision all the time. They are going to be discussed after the game, or privately. But you cannot just decide "fuck this i am gonna do this because this is how i think the game should be ran" because you feel like it. I hope you get what my problem here is. | ||
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n00bKing
United States1202 Posts
On August 06 2015 05:00 raynpelikoneet wrote: I hope you get what my problem here is. Your problem is based on you thinking something happened that didn't. My coach and I did not confer, and then decide that because this ruleset uses factional KP, we were going to disregard that LS had earlier mentioned something about naming an attacker. I have specifically said that I didn't notice that one post from LS in the scum thread. And that I assumed the KP was factional because it had been clarified as such in the last game using this same ruleset. So I never had the attitude of "screw you, I'm gonna do this to call attention to your bad ruling/mistake." I wasn't aware of his bad ruling/mistake, because I had mentally checked out of the game, and didn't notice his post. Only after the fact did GB, LS and myself have a discussion of how the KP is supposed to be delivered in this ruleset. And that's when I figured out the reasoning behind why the ruleset is meant to have factional KP. Make better sense now? | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43266 Posts
But i do not like your argument because you were - again - literally told, that the KP is delivered. If you didn't read the post in QT, then it's your fault. If you didn't ask for a clarification, then it's your fault. People put all sort of things (even dumb) in their games because they do not think them through. If something is not clear, for future reference, ask the host about it. Not just make your own conclusions and act. | ||
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n00bKing
United States1202 Posts
On August 06 2015 05:15 raynpelikoneet wrote: People put all sort of things (even dumb) in their games because they do not think them through. If something is not clear, for future reference, ask the host about it. Not just make your own conclusions and act. Why would it occur to me to think anything was unclear? I had JUST played another game under this exact same ruleset. And during that game, how the KP is delivered was specifically asked and answered: The KP is factional. So there's no reason for me to expect that anything needs further clarification. If you want to bash me for missing one post of a 391 post thread, then go right ahead. But why I acted on the conclusions that I had at the start of the game cannot be easier to understand. | ||
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