EPTNewbie Student Mafia XI - Page 127
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Rels
France13467 Posts
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Rels
France13467 Posts
On June 23 2015 02:11 ruXxar wrote: Rels, I don't understand your reaction. If trfel left out that game on purpose to frame oat, then obviously trfel is mafia. On June 12 2015 07:36 ruXxar wrote: Usually you want to hear the reasoning of the person you're asking. If someone answers the question before him, you potentially open up for someone else to make a logical conclusion beforehand, and then the guy the question was directed at get an easy bandwagon onto that guys conclusions. At least that is what I think. Some things didn't change right ? (= | ||
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Rels
France13467 Posts
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ruXxar
Norway5669 Posts
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ruXxar
Norway5669 Posts
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Rels
France13467 Posts
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Trfel
7015 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + The game had town Roleblocker, Cop, and Mason pair versus mafia Roleblocker and Godfather. So, this is four town power roles. However, a mason pair isn't very strong, the only real use is to claim (and even this can be unreliable). Overall, I'd say both masons are about the strength of one weaker normal blue role. Furthermore, town Roleblockers are really weird. At the start of the game they are extremely weak, being as likely to hit town power roles as mafia carrying KP. Looking at the setup, the town has roleblocker as a possible role option, but no watcher/tracker. Therefore, in this setup mafia will be using their least suspected player to deliver KP, making the roleblocker extremely weak until there are few people left, when it's extremely strong. Despite this game having four power roles, they're generally weaker. This game is balanced, despite mafia having the same, standard roleblocker/godfather setup as in all of the other, standard, two power role games. Mad Hatter feels like a moderately strong role. Compare it to vigilante. When the Mad Hatter gets lynched, it's like a vigilante who gets to fire in the day. Otherwise, it's like a vigilante who gets to hold their bullet until the end of the game, but doesn't have to worry about being killed early. The disadvantage of the mad hatter is that their action is far less immediate than the vigilante's, and the vigilante can sometimes provide a confirmed town (which the mad hatter can rarely do). Doctor is an extremely strong power role throughout the game. Can help confirm people, can help keep top townies alive, can block mafia KP, can force mafia to choose sub-optimal night kills. No downside to targeting town power roles (actually, an upside), and no downside to targeting mafia. Cop is fairly strong, but I've heard that Doctor is a bit stronger. It's hard to see town having the blue power of Cop/Doctor/Mad Hatter. Still, if Oatsmaster is the cop, then he's the cop. The setup analysis is something to use to help make a decision, but it's not a stand-alone argument. It's important, but much less important than standard forms of analysis. If the only reason you think that Oatsmaster is scum is because of the power role balance, then you need to rethink that read. | ||
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Rels
France13467 Posts
OK I give up. I have the biggest gut feel that WOS + Trfel is a thing. But rereading WOS' filter, it's so townie. And rereading Oatsmaster, I forgot he fucking attacked his "greencheck" after ignoring him all D3. The facts are clear. Just can't shake that weird feeling, like when scott's lynch was so easy. | ||
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Kickstart
United States1941 Posts
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Kickstart
United States1941 Posts
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Rels
France13467 Posts
On June 23 2015 02:54 Trfel wrote: You're right, I missed that game somehow. See the spoiler for more power role analysis. + Show Spoiler + The game had town Roleblocker, Cop, and Mason pair versus mafia Roleblocker and Godfather. So, this is four town power roles. However, a mason pair isn't very strong, the only real use is to claim (and even this can be unreliable). Overall, I'd say both masons are about the strength of one weaker normal blue role. Furthermore, town Roleblockers are really weird. At the start of the game they are extremely weak, being as likely to hit town power roles as mafia carrying KP. Looking at the setup, the town has roleblocker as a possible role option, but no watcher/tracker. Therefore, in this setup mafia will be using their least suspected player to deliver KP, making the roleblocker extremely weak until there are few people left, when it's extremely strong. Despite this game having four power roles, they're generally weaker. This game is balanced, despite mafia having the same, standard roleblocker/godfather setup as in all of the other, standard, two power role games. Mad Hatter feels like a moderately strong role. Compare it to vigilante. When the Mad Hatter gets lynched, it's like a vigilante who gets to fire in the day. Otherwise, it's like a vigilante who gets to hold their bullet until the end of the game, but doesn't have to worry about being killed early. The disadvantage of the mad hatter is that their action is far less immediate than the vigilante's, and the vigilante can sometimes provide a confirmed town (which the mad hatter can rarely do). Doctor is an extremely strong power role throughout the game. Can help confirm people, can help keep top townies alive, can block mafia KP, can force mafia to choose sub-optimal night kills. No downside to targeting town power roles (actually, an upside), and no downside to targeting mafia. Cop is fairly strong, but I've heard that Doctor is a bit stronger. It's hard to see town having the blue power of Cop/Doctor/Mad Hatter. Still, if Oatsmaster is the cop, then he's the cop. The setup analysis is something to use to help make a decision, but it's not a stand-alone argument. It's important, but much less important than standard forms of analysis. If the only reason you think that Oatsmaster is scum is because of the power role balance, then you need to rethink that read. Look, I kinda agree with your analysis. But I don't care for excuses. You did forget one game which convienently had 3 power roles. You can explain it all you want after, the fact you did is real and won't disappear. Anyway unless ruxxar or Kickstart can find some WOS scumslips, I'll stay like that. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
On June 23 2015 02:32 Rels wrote: OK WOS didn't answer my question immediately. Whatever his excuse is, negative point it is. This really annoys me for the record. Like if you want to lynch me and think Oats is actually the cop, fine, but to give out arbitrary 'negative points' AFTER you're already voting me because I'm not in front of my computer right when you want me to be is horseshit. Again as I've mentioned before, by the PoE I've done today so far I'd guess last scum to be Ruxxar but that's not complete. My best course of action today in order to ensure this game continues is to make sure as many people as possible are on Oats to minimize the ability for last second shenanigans or switching, so I'll concern myself with that when he flips red. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
On June 23 2015 03:02 Rels wrote: Look, I kinda agree with your analysis. But I don't care for excuses. You did forget one game which convienently had 3 power roles. You can explain it all you want after, the fact you did is real and won't disappear. Anyway unless ruxxar or Kickstart can find some WOS scumslips, I'll stay like that. And I'm pretty sure it's been explained to you already (and shown by the geript flip) that isolated scumslips are just not likely to come from scum as is. If you're to call me scum it should be blaring at you from the heavens. There should be something overarching about my play that feels wrong, or forced, or with a specific agenda in mind, or whatever. But I'm willing to bet you're not getting that, and I'm pretty sure I know why that is. | ||
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Rels
France13467 Posts
On June 23 2015 03:06 WaveofShadow wrote: This really annoys me for the record. Like if you want to lynch me and think Oats is actually the cop, fine, but to give out arbitrary 'negative points' AFTER you're already voting me because I'm not in front of my computer right when you want me to be is horseshit. Again as I've mentioned before, by the PoE I've done today so far I'd guess last scum to be Ruxxar but that's not complete. My best course of action today in order to ensure this game continues is to make sure as many people as possible are on Oats to minimize the ability for last second shenanigans or switching, so I'll concern myself with that when he flips red. I find that super weird. You know for a FACT that Oats is mafia. You've known for more then 24 hours. But you just did nothing really, when you could be hunting scum. You are the only one that can do it with certitude. You seem too ... static when even if Oats is scum, we still have another MYLO tomorrow. | ||
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Rels
France13467 Posts
On June 23 2015 03:08 WaveofShadow wrote: And I'm pretty sure it's been explained to you already (and shown by the geript flip) that isolated scumslips are just not likely to come from scum as is. If you're to call me scum it should be blaring at you from the heavens. There should be something overarching about my play that feels wrong, or forced, or with a specific agenda in mind, or whatever. But I'm willing to bet you're not getting that, and I'm pretty sure I know why that is. You're actually so wrong. It's exactly the inverse. I HAVE the fucking feeling you're weird, but can't find any hints to that. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
On June 22 2015 18:01 Oatsmaster wrote: Why does it look like this? He got mad, and yes that is scummy. But his post about the timing of your claim is a really good point and perfectly matches what town!WaveofShadow should be trying to do.Look at the reaction from wave. Does that look like the reaction of a townie getting fake redchecked? It looks like the reaction of mafia that got caught. On June 22 2015 16:57 Oatsmaster wrote: Ok, so you admit that you checked Kickstart to help with association reads but didn't actually follow through with this.Let's go with bats first.I thought he was town during d1 but when geript flipped town, I thought I should check bats to make sure that he wasnt fooling me because it didn't look like he was gonna get lynched the next day anyway. 2nd day. I thought it was a bus because it would've be suspicious for people to lynch kickstart when sulph was really obvious mafia. I don't think mafia tried to lynch Kickstart over sulph. Knowing Kickstart's alignment then makes it easier to find the mafia team. Also he wasn't on the chopping block or shooting block so imo it was a great check. I didn't do jack with this in terms of analysing other dudes though. Life is tough 3rd day, At this point, I'm running outta checks. It's still not lylo though so I'm not checking damdred, there are better check and I have explained why. I set a trap for damdred earlier in the day though. I'm pretty sure Scott hasn't gotten lynched at that point so I was setting a trap just to confirm him for people who have no idea. Then Day 3, when you supposedly knew that Kickstart was town, why were you still yelling at people to not make association reads for the Sulfurus lynch? So there were some people who had no idea that Damdred was mafia. Then why did you say you didn't want to check Damdred because everyone knew he was mafia and it was too obvious? | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
On June 23 2015 03:10 Rels wrote: You're actually so wrong. It's exactly the inverse. I HAVE the fucking feeling you're weird, but can't find any hints to that. Then describe it. What about me feels weird? And if so, why do you only now feel weird about me once it has been pointed out to you that I have a potential redcheck on me? If I was there was something to make you feel that way previously, would you not have felt that way before? | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31494 Posts
On June 23 2015 03:10 Trfel wrote: Why does it look like this? He got mad, and yes that is scummy. But his post about the timing of your claim is a really good point and perfectly matches what town!WaveofShadow should be trying to do. Ok, so you admit that you checked Kickstart to help with association reads but didn't actually follow through with this. Then Day 3, when you supposedly knew that Kickstart was town, why were you still yelling at people to not make association reads for the Sulfurus lynch? So there were some people who had no idea that Damdred was mafia. Then why did you say you didn't want to check Damdred because everyone knew he was mafia and it was too obvious? I don't see why getting mad is scummy in the slightest tbh. When someone misrepresents your play and is posting lie about you, what is the natural reaction to that? | ||
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Rels
France13467 Posts
When I found that Trfel's missing game I had the feeling I was missing something. Like he did a case on everyone but not a "super scummy" Sulfurus. You and Trfel had opposite opinions all game too. That's almost look like that's on purpose. On me, Damdred, Sulfurus, scott ... you were two of the most town read players, but never killed and never on the same page. And lastly, I find weird that you had NO thoughts regarding the last scum, given that if you are really town, you must have thought about the game during 24 hours knowing Oats is mafia. Voilà, here is my feeling. | ||
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