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On June 08 2015 16:15 Fidei86 wrote:
I'll admit that I'm pretty heavily tunnelled on TT and Scott, but did anyone else feel like their last set of interactions sound like a guy talking to his sock puppet? TT makes a big post about why I'm null/newbie town, then Scott says I'm Mafia, then TT agrees with him, all the while they're directing questions only at each other, or mostly at each other.
If your main reason for thinking I'm Mafia is because of the EOD1 lynch vote, then surely that only makes sense if Chocolate is town. I honestly can't see why I, as a Mafia player, especially a new Mafia player, would come off one town wagon onto another town wagon, when I already had a perfectly acceptable policy lynch vote already. obviously my KS vote was disastrous, and I was the first to admit that. I've shown far more remorse than Damdred has for leading two town lynches.
So, I dedicated one whole post to respond to your criticisms of me.+ Show Spoiler + In it I tried to explain why I felt you were possibly being blinded by making too many assumptions. Your EoD vote was one thing I mentioned, not the main thing. I also made sure to point out what posts you had made that have me leaning slightly town for you.
I spent another whole post in response to the point that Shen pointed out about Nydus' vote D2 landing on me which meant Nydus sided with Choco, his main scum read. I didn't quote every post, but I assure you I went through everything in that filter.
Yet you focus in on the one post where I ask scott a question. You want to know why I asked that question?
I was also trying to figure out why I didn't like the tone of Fidei's posts (the WIFOM stuff and the large series of posts changing his thinking. I randomly figured it out while going through Nydus' filter. He looks a lot like one of the newbie scum in NSM X. That guy spent a lot of the early game asking basic noob questions & looking like he didn't know what he was doing and then spent lots of posts "lost in thought" discussing things others told him were best left along (role hunting/suggesting).
I tried to be clear what I was thinking. Scott was scum the game I'm referring to, I've even given the exact game if people would like to know what I'm talking about, I'll do you one better and link it for ya. I felt he might have a better perspective since the player I'm referring to was on Scotts team that game. It wasn't me going "scott, he looks pretty scummy like this guy was scum huh?" though since your seeing me in red I get why you think that, it WAS me going "hey scott, am I crazy or do these 2 things look alike?"
So, yea I think you are probably too tunneled on me. I'm not angry with you for it, I honestly get it really well. I'll explain in detail but I'm leaving those thoughts in spoilers, kus I don't want to fill up the thread with my thoughts from a different game.
Thoughts from last game:
+ Show Spoiler +So I just thought I'd share why I earned the nickname "Tunneltoc" last game, and also why scott has brought up me and tunnels a lot.
Last game we had a Town player by the name of plotspot. It was his 2nd game here I believe and his newness showed. He hardly posted or contributed D1 but spent hours working on spreadsheets detailing everyones time of posting and style of post. In addition he set up a numerical system for looking at how people interacted. The effort was real, but the idea fell flat. The time investment to do all that charting proved far too great and it never helped plots find mafia.
As it turned out plots was actually the town RB that game. Guess how many scum he blocked... 0. In fact he managed to convince himself the best person to block N1 was actually the mafia NK, then N3 AFTER he had claimed cop plots blocked our Cop, also a NK. His other 2 blocks were on town, but was never able to give more than a few words as to why he thought blocking them was a good idea.
Between all those terrible blocks, and the wasted effort D1 (he gave up on the charts after D1, and didn't even use the charts to explain why he used his N1 action like he did), plus the fact that this particular game had a funky setup. I became convinced that plots claim as RB was fake. I spent the next 3-4 phases (that's close to a week) 100% convinced that plots was scum faking a claim. It took plots being the NK on the last night of the game before I finally accepted I was wrong.
Even now I think I had great reasons to think plots was scum that game and I was only further driven down that tunnel since nobody could explain to my why his blocks made any sense, or matched up with his playstyle. I had a whole butt load of reasons to think what I did, and after awhile nobody even cared to talk me down anymore.
So, yea. Tunnels are bad, I prob would have gotten myself lynched over that tunnel if I hadn't been masons that game and was able to use my partner flipping to prove myself town.
This is why I've been doing my best this game to stay out of getting tunneled. I came close to tunneling Damdred N1, but he gave me reasoning and thinking back so I decided to back off and cool my thinking down. My question to scott was similar. I wasn't sure I trusted my own thinking, and so asked someone I'm fairly certain is town for their opinion instead of barreling down some weird meta game association stuff.
Fidei I think you are one of the few people who voted me that actually did their own thinking. Hence why I'm even bothering to respond to you about that thinking. Just please don't fall into the same trap that GG did and not forget to look at the WHOLE game. There are 3 scum left, if you are sure I'm one of them then there are still 2 others that need to be found.
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On June 08 2015 16:41 Fidei86 wrote:
@Onegu Honest question - if you were looking at your own posts objectively, what conclusion would you draw? Because the nagging feeling I get, particularly because I see you are running your own game elsewhere, is that you rolled mafia but perhaps didn't care that much, or had other things going on, or maybe just have played enough games that you're a bit jaded, and just thought "I'll keep trolling as hard as I can for as long as I can and see if they still won't lynch me". I know that you've stopped with the uber-troll now, but you're still only talking about this 'Onegu' rule, which I understand is a knock-off of the Chezinu rule? But it seems like a bunch of people in the thread already knew about that, which means that if they were scum, they wouldn't fall for it.
The issue I have with your entire approach to this game is that it's now too late for policy lynches. After the NK we're down to what, 6 town and 3 mafia? At some point - and you can see it already - the mafia team (if you aren't mafia) are going to start laying the ground work for a "lynch all lurkers" wagon, which townies, frustrated with all the MLs and the general sense of confusion in the thread, are going to jump on. Hell, I already feel like jumping on it now despite having literally just given my reasons for why it would be a bad idea.
So basically, all of the above is a plea - please, PLEASE, start taking this game more seriously and give us some actual reads and non-troll thoughts. Otherwise, if you're town, you're throwing the game. Obviously if you're actually mafia, then you're clearly one step ahead of the meta.
Ok since you dont know my meta. I am town. I enjoy playing scum so much more than town. Like go read my scum games compared to this one. XXX I was sick so I didnt post much. Yes I am capable of trolling as scum.
I just showed you where the onegu rule worked.
It is a newish rule so only scott and maybe damdred knew about it before hand. So that arguement is irrelvant.
Most older players know about the chez rule but it still works.
Ok lets take away the onegu rule. Look at damdreds reasons for scum reading me and his 180 that in itself is scummy as hell.
Plus what did he do day 2. He led a blue mislynch day 1 and then did nothing day 2 except call himself town.
The Onegu rule works. Kill Damdred.
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On June 08 2015 16:29 Onegu wrote:
We are lynching Damdred tomorrow BTW. You all will sheep me.
Sorry but I won't.
I might end up voting with you though if I find enough good reasons to when I look through his filter.
Honestly though it might be wasted effort. Unless Damdred is mafia I'd guess that he is high up on the scum's "To Kill" list.
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@ Onegu
I'm just wondering, you listed 3 players who broke your rule.
Damdred
Shen
Nydus
Why is all your focus on Damdred?
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Why would scum kill someone who has been totally wrong thus far on pretty much everything?
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@Fidei
Humm, decent point. I thought Damdred looked pretty strong D1, but I suppose he did slack off D2... and he led the lynch on Kick. Yea, you are probably right.
Actually I'm being rather hypocritical trying to guess NK's while telling you not to read into them too much, huh?
I'll just go back to reading then...
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EBWOP:
On June 08 2015 17:51 Tictock wrote:
@Fidei
Humm, decent point. I thought Damdred looked pretty strongly reasoned & able to lead town D1, but I suppose he did slack off D2... and he led the lynch on Kick. Yea, you are probably right.
Actually I'm being rather hypocritical trying to guess NK's while telling you not to read into them too much, huh?
I'll just go back to reading then...
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@TT What do you think about VE? I've subconsciously linked Dam and VE together, since they seem to have been basically doing the same thing all game (leading lynches hyperbolically on D1, lurking on D2).
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I'm not sure if I've actually looked at VE's filter, so keep that in mind.
My honest gut read on him based on what I recall. He's town. I didn't see anything he did today suggest scum to me and he was one of the strongest pushers for Choco D1.
He might get OMGUS a little too much but he did a good job on his case on GG. He responded to GG and kept pushing since GG's responses were lacking. I would be interested to hear where VE sits on this game now though.
@VE
Care to chime in on that when you are around?
Got slightly sidetracked about GG not being a bad lynch, didn't seem too important on proofreading so I'll leave it spoilered.
+ Show Spoiler +Honestly I don't think it was a bad call for us to have lynched GG. It sucks he was town, but honestly given how he was playing I doubt he would have been an asset in solving this game. I mean claiming he has 99% solved the game and listing 5 players as scum is a pretty poor thing to say. Maybe he will be laughing at us all post-game, but personally I'd bet he pinged out 1... maybe 2 scum at best.
I kinda get why you compare VE and Damdred though especially off of the play going on D1. It might even seem weird that I read VE so strongly Town without much evidence, yet am suspect of Damdred.
To me Damdred's push on Kick looked odd due to it's timing, and also some of the language he used to push it. It wasn't that Damdred made a push & eventual wagon that had (I suppose still has...) me thinking he might be scum here it was how he did it. VE has been consistent with his reads and pushes throughout the Day phases. Any changes in thinking were pretty clearly explained as well.
I'll also remind you that Damdred's play was much different D2 than D1. I recall you scumming ritoky D1 for a shift in his play, what do you make of the shift in Damdred's play D1 to D2?
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On June 08 2015 17:34 Tictock wrote:
@ Onegu
I'm just wondering, you listed 3 players who broke your rule.
Damdred
Shen
Nydus
Why is all your focus on Damdred?
Because I have to start on one player and then go to the next. Would lynch any of the 3 but think Damdred looks the worst for other reasons not related to the onegu rule.
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I've just had a quick read over VE's filter and I'll concede that I was wrong - he has not been lurking Day 2. However, he did spend basically all of Day 2 going after Templar. I'm all over the place on VE right now. I need to re-read Damdred's filter, because I have this nagging feeling that one of them is mafia, and I can't figure out which.
@TT I'll try and read Damdred's filter at lunch and come back with thoughts.
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Ok finally my look into Damdred's filter. I'll admit I ended up just focusing on his play after D1.
I was actually overstating the shift I had thought I saw in Damdred's play. I has felt he took on a much more lurky/backseat role D2 but I think I mainly thought this since a lot of his posts D2 were short and Damdred wasn't pushing his own thinking as much, but still was to an extent. Damdred's scum reads were really all over the place though.
Just to get it out of the way, I want to remind everyone of not only the case I made against Damdred N1 (which was mostly me looking at EoD) but also of his reply. Looking back, it wasn't a very strong case and Damdred's reply to it was solid.
Shortly after that Damdred posted this which gives this rather interesting read on Nydus.
NydusHerMain is scum I believe. Reading through his filter he gives little to no actual thoughts to the thread overall, he is a bit sideline for me hes never directly involved in any confrontation. He states people are scummy (ie., he says ritoky is scummy) but never really does anything with it, he throws the thought into the thread and just sort of morphs back into the aether to post again another day. He asks at one point if he is invisible, yes, yes he is probably one of the most invisible players in the game. He pushes very little and stays under the radar his read post that he posted during the night was pretty bad to me, his scum reads weren't fleshed out and lacked any depth and also the scum team he propposd just didn't make sense with us triple bussing each other when we had two town up for lynch? It just feels fake to me.
After those reads Damdred seems to go back to the style of play he was doing D1 but at a reduced capacity imo. It could be that he is taking a more defensive stance as I was pushing him N1, and scott & onegu also start scum reading Damdred.
After VE makes his case on GG Damdred sheeps it (stays on this sheep all day, though he later gives his own reasoning why it's a good lynch)
On June 07 2015 02:56 Damdred wrote:
Damdred sheeps VE cause reasons
I'm not sure why Damdred suddenly dislikes Shen, I didn't check super thoroughly maybe this was before Shen was caught up...
On June 07 2015 22:22 Damdred wrote:
How about we lynch sls slot or nydus, literally nydus still has no reads (well has some just that chocolate wagon all town rest of game scum).
Kinda meh even about lynching the Sl slot though
He says he's pretty sure Nydus is scum over me, gets kinda pissed off at scott, and moved to Nydus and Onegu as his top scum.
He gives out this, his player pool he thinks could be scum.
On June 07 2015 22:55 Damdred wrote:
And I'm not trying to be disrespectful to shen by saying Sl slot. Like I don't actually think shen is the commonest player by far but the Scum,team I feel like is in
Oneg(highly unlikely now)
Shen
Fi
GG
Chocolate
Nylus
Those are the commonest players to me atm. Shen is still in a weird place due to Sl. However I think shen has a fair chance to be town because of effort and looking at past games so I'd probably remove him.
To also answer a previous question oneg tries harder as suck than town but that doesn't mean he lurks less as Scum. It seems contradictory but it's just sorta how he does it.
And I really don't want to lynch oneg today so,it's in between 4 people. Even Fi I'd be ok with not lynching, chocolate has been even less here than I have it feels like, Nylus hasn't tried anything today and is just trying to fit in. GG is weird and not actually looking at the,game anymore.
Damdred does some pushing on GG and ends up deciding that GG is a perfectly fine lynch since GG stopped trying to re-evaluate the game and was giving very poor logic.
EoD Damdred seems to shift back and forth between Choco and GG. These quotes show his thinking moving between the two.
On June 08 2015 00:12 Damdred wrote:
Ehhh I kinda want to lynch nydas or chocolate today.
And you are just bad or scum oneg.
Anyway Gg attitude makes me hesitate here no survival really going on bah.
On June 08 2015 00:59 Damdred wrote:
Yeah I really don't care if we lynch Gg and he's town he is a cancer to the thread.
I really doubt he is mafia but I won't cry if he dies. He says he reevaluated but you haven't. You have funneled on tick and have barely interacted with him. His activity push on you actually looks good. Plus his willingness to look at people again and again looks good. He could be Scum I suppose having an amazing game foe him,but he isn't the lynch today.
So let's talk about something else whoever is here.
Shen tell me why you hate chocolate at eod so,much.
On June 08 2015 03:14 Damdred wrote:Honestly this is the first time someone has said this so far this game. I disagree obviously I'm a bit aware of,my meta so it's not as strong. But when I bus I take a much more assertive tone and don't jump all over the place. However I still don't know exactly why I'm Scum to people. This weird generic/middle of,the road complaint. Which I personally don't thunk is right considering I have given out multiple reads when people were using this. Also IDK why someone said 've isn't saying anything...when he is. I would lynch chocolate or Gg today. Also I'm not sure shen, I need another night to look at him unless we kill me today obviously.
On June 08 2015 05:09 Damdred wrote:
I Hobestly want to lynch chocolate for trying to skirt the rules. That's really crappy
On June 08 2015 06:08 Damdred wrote:
Yeah actually Gg is being that bad, has a cancerous attitude that makes it generally unpleasant to talk to that isn't really helpful to the game so idc if he's town or Scum. However 've is pretty sure he's Scum so I trust him.
I don't have an issue with Damdred keeping his vote on GG, I think his reasons for doing so (well besides sheeping VE for "reasons") were good. It does strike me as odd that Damdred never really pushed Chocolate though, even when he was scumming him most of the Day.
Overall Damdreds reads D2 seemed to be pretty all over the place. That is what strikes me between his D1 and D2 play. He seems to not be as sure of himself now and while I see him push Nydus a lot early on in the day I never quite understood why he drops that pressure. Something feels off about his read progressions D2.
I'm thinking that it could be scum!Damdred trying to see where town is willing to lynch into and testing the waters with the early day reads and pushes, then later joining the pack as they gather around one or two people. This also adds up with my concerns about his playstyle I had in my N1 case on Damdred.
It is also possible this is town!Damdred having a hard time with this game, and having lost some confidence with his D1 lynch going so sour.
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I'm getting some odd lag in my internet connection (like it takes more than a min or two to load a page) so I'm prob done reading filters tonight.
I'll leave you guys with my current reads since I'm not sure if I'll be back before EoN. At this point null is probably more like scum leaning, I'm fairly confident of my town reads. Also order means nothing, I'm just going down the player list.
Town
Onegu
VisceraEyes
Shendelzare (I haven't mentioned, her play today has me fairly swayed she is town)
milo109 (his posting has been weak, but it's hard to see him being scum off that EoD1)
scott31337
Null
NydusHerMain
Fidei86
Damdred
Scum
Chocolate
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Given my Spidy sense about the scumteam being lurkers I'd say this is the scumteam
Nydus, Fidei, Choco
If Damdred is scum, then it is safe to say he would be bussing his partners. So if Damdred is scum then the team is
Nydus, Choco, Damdred
I propose we lynch either Nydus or Choco tomorrow.
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I don't think I've been a lurker, but if I've given that impression then I apologise. Honestly, lurking is the best way to ruin a game, whether people are mafia or town (town because it makes it impossible to win, and mafia because it's no fun winning an easy game). I'll try and post more frequently.
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I should also say the reason why my posts come in fits is that I work long hours as a lawyer at my desk, so I can usually keep up with the thread, but finding long stretches of time to read, digest and make serious posts has been tricky. Not an excuse, I know..
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Does anyone know when we are likely to find out about the NK? It's sort of pointless spending too much time pontificating until we do...
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The night lasts 24 hours according to the rules. So the NK gets done at 2300 my time. That's a little over 7 hours from now.
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Ah. For some reason, I thought it happened during the day last time. I'm on a big case atm and the days and nights are sort of blurring a little.
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I'm extremely busy at work. Once I get off work though, I'll look into Damdred/VE/NHM given the concerns I'm reading.
I'm pretty sure Scott is okay but will probably give his filter a runthrough to make sure I'm not missing anything.
Milo is making me a little nervous as a lurker, NHM for that and the reads day two.
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EPT
