[M][N]Holy Guardians Chapter 1 - Page 61

On June 07 2015 08:04 scott31337 wrote:
"The reason I haven't voted on you yet is because I also think TT is Mafia, and it seems like there's more chance of getting a coalition to vote him off for now. But if there isn't much movement in the next 12 hours or so, I'll vote for you - unless you turn it around and make a real case that you're town."

You don't make a town case, you make a mafia case. You show you are town by your thoughts and words. I'd almost call this a slip.

Your hearts beating a little faster now isn't it?

On June 07 2015 02:37 Tictock wrote:
Ok well if nobody is around to interact with I'll go ahead and finish up that case then.

#1 - GG has basically shown that he is simply not sure that he isn't sure about anyone but me, yet is willing to claim he's 99% sure about this game.
He makes this assertion here.

D1 he was sure that it was either myself or Kick that were Mafia. He hardly pushed Kick instead, flipped his read rather suddenly and kept focus on me. This was shortly before Kick becomes the EoD wagon and eventually gets lynched. To GG this now has me as "confirmed" scum.

This thinking is dangerous as town, and seems to clearly be scum motivated to me. As scum, this makes perfect sense as it suggests to town that they have a 50/50 chance one day with a confirmed scum lynch the next day. If scum can set this situation up and have it gain credence then it's a great way to get 2 ML's for one stubborn argument. Even if the end result is Scum!GG being lynched on the 3rd day this would be hugely productive for scum.

As town it is highly questionable to make this case, as since you cannot have perfect information (and losing out Blue role means Town can't glean any extra info this game) and thus if you are wrong you are sentencing 2 town to be killed. Thus if you want to suggest a move like this as town you had better have solid evidence to backup this plan. I fail to see that evidence coming from GG.

#2 - He throws out my name in every post as though chanting my name. This is subtle manipulation on his part, it's the same tactic used in commercials to get you to remember something and keep thinking about it.

I'm not even sure I need to bother proving this one, it is clearly the tactic GG is using here. Instead I'll return to why GG is scumreading me, the Chez rule.

I would like to point out that GG is clearly basing his assertion that I am scum off the Chez Rule, yet he does next to nothing to backup his belief in the Chez rule. It was scott who first tried to explain it, then ritoky posted links, and Onegu posted another one. GG would rather paraphrase the rule in order to get it to fit this situation and stick to it, then give any real evidence about the Chez Rule.

Having now done my own reading and looking into it I can see why GG isn't giving out those links. His play is not very in line with how Chez would play out his rule. In the Champions Game Onegu linked to, you can clearly see that Chez is willing to think outside his own rule, and while he comes back to it time and again he never lets the rule fully cloud his judgment. I also have a hard time believing Chez would allow his vote to be wasted like GG let his "vote" on me go to waste D1.


#3 - He throws around spots in his reads like he's offering safe passage to those he "reads town"

I quoted the post he made where he stated this a couple of posts ago. Again, I think this point speaks for itself.

I'm really interested if anyone has anyway to explain how this thinking could possibly be good or helpful.

#4 - He throws out his Townreads on Kick and Ritoky like they were candy that everyone should enjoy, and then remember who gave them out so they will accept more later.

The post where he does this is here, but here is the portion I found most interesting.



This is such an easy move for scum to make since they actually know who is town. GG is quick to throw out that he was townreading Kick, yet he barely recognized that Kick had died or was our ONLY blue role. He spins his read on ritoky the same way, just saying "I knew he was town, listen to me"

Saying you were right about Townreads is the worst way to prove you are town as it is the easiest way for Mafia to show that they are town as well. If anything people should be more afraid to listen to GG given this statement.

#3 & 4 together pretty much prove to me that GG does not have Town interests in mind. I also find there to be ample explanation as to why Scum!GG would be acting this way and pushing me like this. Maybe it's a little WIFOM, but I don't think scum is sweating losing a member of their team right now if it has the potential of getting another ML and creates further confusion and misdirection at the same time.

On June 07 2015 07:53 scott31337 wrote:
What stops them is the "Why am I still alive" policy. You can only run that towncred for so long and wonder why that person wasn't shot by the mafia, unless they are mafia. I can get into it more if you would like, but that's the jist of it.

On June 07 2015 08:37 Fidei86 wrote:
I still think Onegu is a worthy policy lynch. I was reading a guide to forum Mafia on some wiki, and it said that it was common for towns to adopt a "lynch all lurkers" policy. Onegu still hasn't really contributed anything of value, really. It's totally impossible to get any read on someone who doesn't post anything substantive. I don't think the meta town read is sufficient to exonerate him. I saw he's moderating another game on the forums - he's surely smart enough to replicate his last town game as scum.

I have a town read on milo. I've also come round on Damdred and VE. They both got out in front of their wagons, and I don't think that it's usual Mafia play to do that. I also really liked Damdred's response to my last question. Mafia are usually (I understand) obsessed with getting things right and are wary of admitting mistakes. When I pointed out Damdred had two different reads on Chocolate, he admitted it straight up. That makes me think that he was posting an honest stream of conscience, which I don't think a Mafia would do.

I'm leaning towards Chocolate being town, a lot because his behaviour during the last EOD seemed really genuine.

As to SL's replacement, I'm null. It's too early still. I'm also not sure on Nymus. As for GG, I originally thought that he was scum leaning, as all his posts were just "I think you're town". But he's changed it up since then. I'm null on him too.

Also, yeah, my heart is going pretty quickly. Mafia is a hell of a lot more stressful than I thought it would be. I still feel awful for being the casting vote on KS. Being town and not knowing who to trust is giving me paranoia. It's fun, but once this game is over I think I'll need a break..

On June 07 2015 07:42 scott31337 wrote:
I've obs'ed more then 20 games of Mafia before I started playing - I want to learn things before I jump into it, just my nature. I've obs'ed at least five games from him and beyond the claiming VT in XXX when he was mafia, he does not change much, and reads inconsistencies well. If we need to light a fire under his ass I have no problem with that, but he's a town read at the moment.

On June 07 2015 12:52 VisceraEyes wrote:
I see we are well on track to lynch temp. Good job.

On June 05 2015 14:31 milo109 wrote:
Alright, looking back I think I've focused too much on defense and not enough time pushing my reads. Here's where I'm at
Chocolate Town
VE Mafia

I really don't want to get into that again. But I think that this is the way things do and should line up.

Other reads:
Ritocky is super town from the combination of both his activity level and the thought he puts into the game. I called him nitpicky earlier, but as the game goes on I appreciate the pressure he is putting on.

Nydus is a light town. I'm sorta getting a dimwit silly impression from him, and it seems hard to understand why mafia would want to fake that. I realllly don't like his last post though, so that bumped him down.

Fidei is town just for doing for the long, clear, and well-written way he conveys his thought processes. I've never felt jarred by of his logic.

Damdred is scum. His vote on Kickstart and the way he has been playing is so noncommital.

I still like Templar. You people don't understand his utterly dopey playstyle in video mafia. He plays here like he does there.

The problem with these reads is that means only one scum voted on Kickstart. And that's a real problem. I'll rethink this in the morning with my Onegu/Ticktock/Scott/New Guy sequel.

On June 06 2015 07:11 milo109 wrote:
So I wanted to finish my reads, but I'm finding it hard.

Onegu is just so... weird. I'm fine lynching him anytime. Can't read him.

Tictock is town. Same reason for my read on Fedei.

Scott is also probably town??? Weakest town read.

New Guy might be scum. Weakest scum read. I hated SL's play, and I'm getting a 'desperate attempt to turn things around' vibe.

On June 05 2015 05:13 Chocolate wrote:
I'm switching to KS. I really like these points
"Hounds people for reads but when confronted for his own reads he gives only smoke scum read that is rehashed fom others in the thread, sl scum read at this point is an afterthought and feels contrived."

"you come back to the thread, start yelling and OMGUSing damdred and jump off a wagon losing steam onto the other popular one for a meh reason."

walls of text, I don't know if you consciously write them for this reason but I have a hard time focusing on them and if I see a bunch of new posts I kinda just skip over them at first

still don't really like his first post lol

and now he bandwagons on me for ??

my vote is also partially grounded in a will to survive since I hope that with my vote and possibly a change on the part of ritoky I won't die D1 at least

On June 05 2015 05:55 Chocolate wrote:
case for KS
sorry for formatting in a hurry

"Took a nap cause I was feeling like shit and moody, probably came through in my posting. Lots of people have taken issue with my Nydus town read. I just want to say again that it was hastily done and I just said it off the top of my head because people were pressuring me to give more town reads (which again I don't find fair since I gave them, but people are greedy and wanted more and I reacted badly). It can be ignored and I have tried to explain why it happened, I will have to reevaluate him later but like I said I would probably not lynch him at the moment."
backpedaling and trying to appease everybody

"After addressing everyone getting a tryhard/bossy vibe from me, do you still find me suspicious? Does my defense that this is normal from me change your opinion at all?

I agree with the town reads part, that is why I don't like to give them this early but since I was asked for opinions on more than just milo i did give a few. Do you still find scott and myself to be most suspicious or has that changed?"
more appeasement

"Again milo I think you are focusing too much on me just because I was pressuring you so hard. That is fine I guess but I still would like to hear thoughts on someone aside from me you find scummy, or am I the only one at this point? Your points in my case I don't find particularly good either but I can address those later if people think they hold weight, for now I will work on posting reads on people aside from you as I have had multiple requests to do so."
evasion

"That said, is milo still slight town and I still slight scum to you? Are there any other reads you can give besides us two at this point?"
evasion

"Well me OMGUSing everything is a stretch. I went on milo and sl before they even mentioned me, and my read on GGT is the same with or without him directing anything at me. I am generally of the opinion that town reads aren't of much use D1, but I was pressured to name some earlier and I named yourself and VE, for basically the same reasons. I felt that you were both applying pressure when needed, you were both driving discussion, and both were being open and honest with your thoughts - all of which I think is helpful and thus I feel that you have been helpful for town up to this point. Does that mean I think you are both 100% town? No, but I feel confident in saying that I would not vote on either of you this cycle. To be honest the only other person I feel is slightly town atm is Nydus, but definitely not on the same level as you two. I have real issues with almost everyone else who I havent mentioned because I just feel their posts are void of strong feelings and I don't like that style of play. Namely I feel like Damdred, scott, Onegu, and Fideu (just off the top of my head) are not giving us anything to work with, their posts are void of reads and strong opinions, and while Damdred has asked a lot of questions and put a bit of pressure on at times, he is still guilty of not giving us his thoughts (though he said this is how he plays and that he will wait to make a stronger case when he is ready - which I intend to hold him too, if Day 1 ends and he is still guilty of what I outlined above I will have some real questions about him because he has been active enough and seems experiences and good enough to give some solid reads but has yet to do so). I think scott and fideu are new so I can understand the reluctance to stick their necks out on anything but I don't feel that is a real excuse, they still need to share their thoughts on things. Onegu seems to have arrived late on the scene but already his posting style is suspicious to me, much too much joking around; while this is normal and understandable at the start of the game, I feel like there is plenty of content to actually address, which he has not done. Can anyone tell me if this is normal posting from Onegu?"
verbal diarrhea which confused me, probably others

"id mention my issues with chocolate before and it seems he is getting a lot of heat atm, will see that happens there."
"well I'd like to bandwagon but I don't want to be held accountable for it"

On June 07 2015 13:43 Tictock wrote:
Not around long, but I agree Shen Choco looks pretty bad atm.

I'm really unhappy that this was his last post over 24hrs ago, and was one of like 3 posts since EoD...




However, we have 2 solid cases on GG, I still think we should be lynching him today.

On June 05 2015 05:27 Chocolate wrote:
KS, if you would look back, you would see I posted only a few minutes after you, I had not yet seen what you wrote

ok let me try to generally address the points against me

1. the scott vote

he wasn't posting, had a general town read and nothing else at the moment, very easy way for scum to play it safe, I don't feel he is scum at all at the moment since he has posted a lot more since then

2. going scott over VE
uhhh it was pretty far before the end of the day and it was a case of pros and cons vs. only cons at the moment

3. I seen scummy because I've been defending all game
It's a cycle. If I don't defend myself, I get called dodgy scum. If I defend myself, I seem to be scrambling. In either case I have to spend a lot of my time and posts defending myself which continues to call attention to myself possibly being scum

4. switching votes a lot
tictock vote meant next to nothing, scott vote was imo logical at the time it was made, VE vote was slightly OMGUSing, onegu vote I continue to stand by but if you guys want to interpet meta to the detriment of town I can't stop you, KS I don't want to die, he seems scummy (and for my next post I'll try to be more formal why), and bandwagoned me

if there's anything else scummy you want to bring up about me then shoot