EPTNewbie Mini Mafia LXI
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Hier
2391 Posts
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Hier
2391 Posts
The Bridges Let’s make this interesting. Instead justifying one’s alignment with semantics, grammatical tendencies, and suspicious use of emoticons I’ll introduce a more systematic approach. I have linked each player to one another (visualized in Appendix 1) using a randomly generated series of numbers shown in Appendix 3. 1) Going around in a circle each player “follows” another. 2) When a player gets lynched his or her follower must be voted for the next day’s lynch. 3) Each player has a once-per-game ability to unfollow a player and follow a different one, displacing the existing follower onto the one that got abandoned (since there cannot be 2 followers on the same target). Example in Appendix 2. 4) Once the next lynch has been “set” by a link, another player may use up their one-time ability to unlink him or her, at which point a standard vote takes place. The "doomed" player may not unlink him or herself. 5) If a player in the middle of a chain gets killed off at night, his or her follower and followed get connected. 6) I will post the updated map right after a player gets lynched and keep track of all everyone's re-linking ability counters. FAQ What does this accomplish? The threat of a predetermined lynch coerces the players to be more invested into the game, choosing carefully the appropriate time to switch their, or someone else’s, link to steer the game to their advantage. Won’t someone just outright ignore these crazy rules? I can't stress this enough - that's the best part! + Show Spoiler [Appendix 1] + Each player "follows" another into the grave. So if Hier gets lynched, Trfel gets put up to the chopping block the next day cycle. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/V1KQEsN.png) + Show Spoiler [Appendix 2] + Here Hier has chosen to unfollow rsoultin, perhaps because rsoultin is getting flooded with votes to be lynched, and Hier doesn't want to be next. He chose The Shining either because he thinks The Shining is a sure town, or because he thinks jarjarbinks is a sure mafia. Again - this ability can be used ONCE during the game. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/8qppjCN.png) + Show Spoiler [Appendix 3] + First off, could I have manipulated the initial set-up? Yes, it is up to you to decide whether I did or not. To keep it to one image I generated a column of numbers corresponding to our position in the sign-up list in the OP. Starting from 1 (which was Trfel) I linked him to the first unique number that came up - 7 (Hier), linked him to the next unique number - 9 (rsoultin), and so on to make a full circle. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/VxiHCC5.png) | ||
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Hier
2391 Posts
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Hier
2391 Posts
On February 15 2015 19:51 ElyAs wrote: Came back from sleep to see this was on. Gonna share my thoughts on what on some posts that I find significant. [...] Hier, I don't like your plan, but I agree that all participants should post as soon as possible If everybody was willing to follow the plan, it could work, but I can't see either mafia or townies with strong reads willing to break the circle. Plus pressure vote is a good tool in my opinion and your plan forces you to cast a vote on a strong read, it's harder to pressure with only 1 switch. Still, I'd like for more people to comment on your plan. Please be careful of what you say, typically only a mafia player would include themselves in a set of people that require "strong reads"; it's done for inclusion's sake because the mafia don't have "reads" - they can see everything as is. Your rationale is flawed. People with strong reads are more willing to break the links, not less. Further, the number of switches you have has nothing to do with how susceptible you are to be pressured to a vote. With 2 people, out of only 9, dying every vote cycle having more than 1 switch trivializes the tool, which is what The Bridges is, and deprives each switch of its subtle meaning. On February 15 2015 19:58 zlefin wrote: I don't like that plan, too complicated for a newbie game, and it's not like a methodology can force a superior outcome. The only achievable objective would be getting people to play more, but I think there's better ways to accomplish that. [...] Don't assume everyone here can't comprehend a simple set of rules. In a vacuum nothing can force a superior outcome, however passivity favours mafia. Hit me, what "better ways" are you thinking of right now? In your experience, is the use of a smiley face signal scum for you? What about people analysing your analysis of that suspiciously sarcastic undertone some guy is utilizing? Can you analyse that analysis of your analysis and get a good read on the person? We can go around in circles aimlessly. An engraved method forces people with a little too much knowledge to act the way people without said knowledge wouldn't. | ||
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Hier
2391 Posts
On February 16 2015 01:15 jarjarbinks wrote: He made a mistake and meant the opposite of what he said in the quote you posted. Still I really liked your post here. Have you used this idea in a past game? Has it seen success? Did you just come up with it? No. This is a fresh approach I've come up with, unless something similar has been used by someone else in the past. On February 16 2015 01:16 rsoultin wrote: [...] Got any reads, Hier? No. So far I have been the only one to open myself up to non-gimmicky criticism. Once everyone's viewpoint of my model has been posted and everyone's criticisms of those viewpoints start cropping up things will be a little more clear. | ||
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Hier
2391 Posts
On February 16 2015 01:21 rsoultin wrote: You don't see a problem with the simple fact that town is in the dark and mafia isn't? Most games I've played I have so many nullish or slight leans, especially early game, but using a one-time-ability on someone I'm far from certain of? That's lolworthy when it might better be preserved for later xP Also, town not knowing each other for sure, what's to encourage making reads if the lynch is already set at start of day? How will you make your vote analysis? Not a fan of this style of play at all. If it was so effective, it would already be in use. Nobody is forcing you to use your switch on a target you aren't sure of. I am sure some people will have a problem with a specific person being "auto-lynched", in which case anyone is free to save that person by using up their switch ability, allowing for a standard vote we will see on Day 1. Or you can convince someone else to do it, someone who isn't in danger of being dragged into a lynch. | ||
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Hier
2391 Posts
Something I've overlooked: If a player gets successfully lynched on Day 2 by "following" the lynch on Day 1, the lynch on Day 3 has to go back to a free vote; a third person in chain cannot be auto-lynched. This is alleviate the situational initial set-up of its impact on the game. | ||
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Hier
2391 Posts
On February 16 2015 01:48 rsoultin wrote: You're not addressing the problem of no information vs. perfect information in this set-up, or how an auto-lynch discourages town trying to figure things out. Not saying people won't still try, but the pressure is less, and I don't know about you, but I personally put less weight on what people who are about to be lynched are saying versus someone who apparently has nothing to gain from speaking up? Have you played mafia before somewhere else? The mafia start off with an advantage of knowing everyone's alignment. To counteract that I introduced a system to try and put them in a situation they don't want to be in. The rules of the model are immune to informational bias. I have 3 mafia games on TL, prior to this. | ||
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Hier
2391 Posts
Anyway, I've spammed enough for now. I'll be back in a few hours. | ||
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Hier
2391 Posts
Purely numerically completely off the wall random lynches win out over the Bridges method by a little over 2 percentage points at the second lynch; it is negligible. In both cases mafia’s odds of escaping 2 lynches in a row are a little better than a coin flip. Better blind mathematical odds are not, however, what I’m advocating. I am selling a platform, a canvas, through which reads can be made. You say people will be content with the predetermined 2nd lynch and activity will drop – I say you’re wrong. As long as there are 2 sides that want to win arguments will always arise, except in this case they will be of a different nature: justification of substitution, rather than a timed mandatory witch hunt. Bandwagons will certainly not be eliminated, but through this method they will demand sturdier foundations, which eliminates chaos. Let’s spice things up. rsoultin: In 3 separate posts you have described your reads to be null towards people that have posted, and despite you not liking the Bridges method, which is fine, said that it is something a town player may suggest thinking it’s good. Later, after someone mentioned they weren't a fan of my model, you've gone to suggest that I've done nothing to show that I care about finding scum, all the while you proclaim your reads are null and just ask what other players’ reads are. That is the way mafia players probe the scene to start a bandwagon. Why else, out of the blue, without any further analysis, would you vote me to be lynched with the phrase “Tell me why I’m wrong, or get onboard.”? No, it is your job to tell everyone the reasons behind your vote, not to tell everyone to get onboard. I vote rsoultin. I know who your follower is. Should you turn green the town will have a sure scum locked. Should you turn red, someone will bail me out before the 2nd lynch. | ||
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Hier
2391 Posts
It only takes one other player to declare his or her support for the model to get people to support its use. I know how Bridges works and how to use it to get a town victory. I will always abide by its rules, but if you later decide it's not worth it by all means abandon it. | ||
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Hier
2391 Posts
I am not an oracle, I will give out reads as soon as I come to their conclusion. In turn I must ask for some analysis from other people as well. Despite what you are saying my accusation of rsoultin was not an OMGUS. Within the first paragraph of rsoultin's section I describe why his or her play is scummy, which does not mention his or her vote. | ||
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Hier
2391 Posts
As as I said, if you have the slightest town read on me, support the model. This will entice others to join. | ||
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Hier
2391 Posts
Unfortunately, you did not give me much to work with. Your response can be summarized as "Your post is bad, Hier." Anyway, I'll be back in a few hours. | ||
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Hier
2391 Posts
I have provided my prime scum read with justification. Of course rsoultin may just not be very good at the game, which is fine, but I’ll stand by my claim. The Shining’s scum read on zlefin isn’t without rationale, but I suspect the second mafia player to be one of the two inactive players. I do not have a solid town read, in fact it doesn’t make sense to, and stating you are neutral about that guy and that guy isn’t productive. | ||
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Hier
2391 Posts
On February 16 2015 12:51 rsoultin wrote: Okay, in the interest of fairness, if you genuinely believe each of these claims, I can understand your scumread. So I'm going to ask you to actually quote the posts I made that led you to the three bolded conclusions. Preferably in context, because if you misrepresent me I do very much have a tendency to get tunneled xP Once you've done so, I'll answer the last bit. Alright. You went back to my original accusation, to which you have already responded, and are now demanding further explanation when, quite literally, nobody else is asking for it. People have already read my statement and have made up their minds, whatever those may be. You are creating artificial content by searching for an excuse to re-state your innocence, and projecting the appearance of scum hunting at the same time. That would create drivel. You have not been the centre of discussion for several pages, and nobody has been tunnelling you, much less me. Right now it looks like the one doing the tunnelling is you. Look, for now my vote stays where it is. If you post something that changes my mind or a more obvious scum target comes up I promise I will be the first one to let you know. For now let me focus on somebody else, instead of going through your filter again. On February 16 2015 13:31 jarjarbinks wrote: Hier, I know a lot of people have been asking you questions. Can you answer this one? Should be easy enough? I've already answered this, and my answer isn't changing. Yes, as the game began. As of right now I do not think Trfel or jarjarbinks are scum, and thus have no intention of voting for them. | ||
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Hier
2391 Posts
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Hier
2391 Posts
On February 16 2015 14:54 rsoultin wrote: Shining is male. It's like "The Shining" with Jack Nicholson. Not relevant, but lol, I'm sure he's tired of being called a woman ^^ Ok. I just noticed Trfel refer to him as "her". | ||
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Hier
2391 Posts
On February 16 2015 15:10 rsoultin wrote: For the record, I'd still like this answered, Hier. From a more veteran player I'd be calling to lynch you with fire for most of your posts xP but I recognize that this is a newbie game and you might actually believe what you're saying. I just don't know how far my lexicon can take me reiterating my own accusations, and I don't really see the point when you'll just rebuke it my saying I misinterpreted your quotes, thus creating a nucleus for a completely unnecessary discussion. But if you really really really want I'll do so in the morning. It's getting late here too, and tomorrow is a holiday here, so I'll have time. | ||
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Hier
2391 Posts
The way scum play is by creating an illusion of healthy contribution, often subsidized by the incestuous demand for other people’s reads. This makes them appear to scum hunt and gives them an overall picture of the scene to know who is safe to make a move against without having suspicion fall on them. rsoultin provides us with a textbook example of such play. Prior to me making my first post the highlight of the thread was a set of back and forth comments between rsoultin and Trfel, during which rsoultin called one of Trfel’s comments a null read here, and called him and overall null read here. That was when Trfel and rsoultin were the only people that have begun to play (The Shining hoped in mostly to say hello, his post contentless); what’s the point in insisting to calling someone a null read twice at that stage? In this case “null” serves as a parasitic word that acts as an advert, subconsciously making people believe that its user is making reads and scum hunting, while exerting the least effort. This tactic is coupled effectively with her tendency to demand immediate reads from people that have just joined the thread, as in the case of jarjarbinks and myself. This would be completely fine if not for her safely hiding behind an array of null reads, including myself, seemingly not to piss anyone off. To immediately establish own neutrality to the players, but aggressively seek others' suspicions is usually a sign of mafia play aimed at identifying potential future bandwagons. Upon my posting of the Bridge model ElyAs, zlefin, and Trfel have responded negatively. Only jarjarbinks initially thought it was worth the try. Once jarjarbinks has begun to display doubt, rsoultin's stance on me diminished, as if to mirror. Finally, jarjarbinks’s final verdict on the model came in, it being negative. This was a signal to rsoultin, giving her permission to vote against me, as she did almost immediately, accompanied by her infamous phrase and no case made. What’s happening here is something very similar to a tactic used to buy equity; it is beneficial to buy into something early knowing its value will grow. It was beneficial to get on the lynch train early; being the first person to do so guarantees protection from future sheep voting accusations, and with 4 people having shown their discontent with me it was a decently safe assumption that a bandwagon would form. Having said that, it could very well be possible that rsoultin just isn’t very experienced at the game, like I’ve said here before, and is not watching her actions. As it stands her actions are explainable by either her lack of controlled play or that she is scum. It is unlikely to be anything in between. I will be adding The Shining to my probable town list, to join jarjarbinks and Trfel. His actions do not make sense from a mafia perspective. Creating a third lynch candidate with no prior suspicion hovering over zlefin on the grounds of suggesting unlikely scenarios seems to be weak town play. Finally, like I mentioned in this post, I have been suspecting a scum player to be one of the then inactives, Silverarte and Mimeux. Now that Tere has replaced an inactive player and has begun posting I am more convinced she is, in fact, scum. | ||
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Hier
2391 Posts
On February 17 2015 05:06 Tere wrote: So, the only person you aren't scum reading is ElyAs, based on that, right? What? Did you even read any of that? And don't worry, my cases typically take longer than 5 minutes to write up. | ||
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Hier
2391 Posts
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Hier
2391 Posts
On February 17 2015 05:31 rsoultin wrote: Hier...I'm trying really hard not to tunnel you. If you're saying that Tere is your other scumread and are only now reading her fiter...gah -_- you do realize how bad this looks, don't you? I mean, it doesn't escape you, right? What were your initial reasons for your scumread on Tere? She was reaching with her initial assessments. She needed something to establish convincing player analyses. Saying jarjarbinks is likely a town player because of his spreadsheet? There was no spreadsheet. Similarly I could have said I made a spreadsheet, would I get points? Not to mention I corrected jarjarbinks's math in one of my posts. Calling you a "Known town or towny" because of your explanation of WIFOM for zlefin? Laughable. | ||
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Hier
2391 Posts
On February 17 2015 05:42 Tere wrote: Ballsacks, I make my view of you pretty damn clear in the post explaining my vote, including specific posts I think are scummy, and have pointed out one of the items I think most problematic again very recently. It's hard not to see that as misrepresentation. I am trying to give you the opportunity to clear yourself but it's not going very well for me here. Are you going to answer my question? Also a bonus question, are you having fun here, it doesn't look like you are having fun? Final RFI - this might be how you are, it's possible. Can you please link your previous games at TL Mafia with alignment? I will go have a read through those filters but right now I'm not feeling a reason to move my vote. You voted for me in one post, and claimed that I could be a town player and that we need to look for counterwagons in your very next post. Sounds to me like even you thought your case against me was weak. | ||
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Hier
2391 Posts
On February 17 2015 05:46 rsoultin wrote: Why are you only picking some of her reasons for her reads and not others? Are you saying that those reasons make JJB and I scum? Because otherwise, I don't understand why you'd point out the spreadsheet and not how she likes JJB's easy manner...or why you'd only mention my explanation of WIFOM to zlefin when there were several other points she was townreading me on. You're right, you don't understand the point I made. No, for those reasons jarjarbinks and you could not be considered scum. Tere needed volume to establish her reputation, the quality of her posts, however, was feeble, as seen in the examples I have provided. For that reason, for such a rushed and frail attempt at alignment establishment, I strongly suspect Tere to be scum. | ||
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Hier
2391 Posts
On February 17 2015 05:50 Tere wrote: That's called wanting to give someone the benefit of the doubt. If it makes you feel better, you are making me more confident on my scumread every time you post. Now are you going to answer my question? In turn, your innocence fades with each of yours. Why don't you convince me that you are town, and I will answer your question (which you'll have to repost). | ||
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Hier
2391 Posts
Ok, ladies first. I'll be here when you post. | ||
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Hier
2391 Posts
Yes. I've responded to a lot of your posts. Let's change gear; show me you are town. | ||
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Hier
2391 Posts
On February 17 2015 05:59 Tere wrote: It's not my neck on the chopping block. I guess Hier doesn't want to defend himself  This is a team game. It makes no difference if I get lynched, so long as town wins. As of right now you are formally ignoring my request. | ||
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Hier
2391 Posts
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Hier
2391 Posts
On February 17 2015 06:27 jarjarbinks wrote: Hier: Who do you think is more likely to turn up scum, Rso or Tere? Is there someone else you think is more likely? I've noted that rsoultin's play could be attributed to a few minor mistakes, all conglomerating to form a potential scum vibe, with a viable agenda. Tere, on the other hand, I don't think I've seen a more obvious scum play. | ||
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Hier
2391 Posts
On February 17 2015 06:46 Tere wrote: Well, jarjar, this is what I've got, it's not really a question, is it. It kinda bugs me that Hier's repeatedly refused to answer questions even when reposted, that's not town helpful at all IMO. But on the basis that it might be helpful for you also, I can have a stab. I'm reaching out and trying to engage with as many people as possible. On Day 1 locked townreads are very hard but it's important for me to reach out and try to understand people and see if we can work together. I wouldn't call it town block, but a lot of my initial work goes on understanding tone and getting the feel for how people play - even more important when I have no meta and you are all unknowns IMO. I've read through the thread to catch up and I've gone through all the filters and posted my thoughts on them (I am feeling better about you BTW) I've considered whether or not I am tunnelling (I don't think I am!). I've asked Hier to come back into the thread and talk to us rather than tunnelling on my scumread. I've asked Hier for alternate evidence as to playstyle so I can triangulate with known town in case he's just rubbing me up the wrong way and it's a playstyle clash. I've considered the cases for the alternate wagons and thought of alternatives. I just don't like any of them more than where I have my vote right now. Would anything else be helpful for you? Same question for Hier? This was weak, and contradictory. The very first line of your very first game-related post was you voting to have me lynched. You did not try and "reach out to me" and "engage" with me, as you have put it. You came in as scum, saw a town player having a lot of votes, and auto-voted. It's really that simple. I have said you were a scumread for me, and, as per your request to clarify, I have explained why; it has partially to do with your case against me. To you that's tunnelling. This is at least the second time you are hiding behind the word "playstyle". Anything that seems amiss about your play you attribute to your personal playstyle, thinking it successfully defends against accusations. But, as promised, I will answer your question you wanted answered at the time of the agreement: Yes, I have always intended to use the Bridges method, after having pointed out that insubordination is part of its intentionally limiting design. Naturally, being the only person to oblige by its rules is meaningless, because the Bridges is meant to be a play method, not an explicit set of rules each individual is meant to follow. | ||
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