EPTOn July 05 2014 14:58 GlowingBear wrote:
Epi, check their QT. they've put a lot of thought on it.
Epi, check their QT. they've put a lot of thought on it.
Yeah, reading through it now.
Newbie Mini Mafia LVI - Page 124
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Epishade
United States2267 Posts
Yeah, reading through it now. | ||
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Epishade
United States2267 Posts
"God damn it, I mis-posted in the mafia thread instead of a TL+ thread and Epishade is jumping on me for overreacting to it. Might need a little help from one of you two to turn it against him." Ahahaha. | ||
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Epishade
United States2267 Posts
"Hey darthpunk, from a scale of 1 to screwed, how dcrewed are we " | ||
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Teemursu
Finland839 Posts
On July 05 2014 13:18 HaruRH wrote: Was fun guys. Just a few large hiccups along the way, or else we would have won T.T teeeeeeeemmmmmuuuuuu why no vote epishade nuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu If he voted epishade -> lylo templar claim jailer and say he jailed hobbit d3 (so hobbit didnt say cos he roleblocker) I was asleep, unfortuantely. :/ But yeah, gg's and sorry for getting so exhausted with the game. I'll try my best next game (still not going to give up). | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
I like discussing games after they finish up. I have more to write about, but here are some general thoughts I had while watching the game as a co-host. I'm still relatively new to forum mafia so I can be wrong or dumb on these things :D but they were what I thought as an observer, at least - All-Vanilla Setup I don't know if Slam had any lessons in mind when he decided to use an all-vanilla setup, but I think having an all-vanilla game stressed the value of attentiveness and scumhunting. This town didn't have any cop checks or medic saves to rely on - in fact, town actually had to disbelieve every power role claim and successfully lynched mafia day 3, 4, and 5. Mafia Fakeclaims I give mafia credit for bravery in their elaborate power role claims, but I feel it was SO risky and I don't think it was so necessary. The mafia claims essentially implied that the game included a jailer (town), roleblocker (town or mafia), and eventually also that there was a cop (town). First off, it poses problems if the actual blue roles are in the game. If there was a jailer in this game, wouldn't they tend to disbelieve the players claiming to be jailed (because 2 jailers seems so powerful!). Similarly, had there been a cop in the game, I feel they would have disbelieved HaruRH's claim (2 cops is wow!). This isn't to say that fake-claiming is a bad thing, particularly if it reveals the actual blue role. But here, the mafia's fake claims seemed like they may be overexersions. The fake claims implied the existence of 3 roles, but, only the three mafia would ever fake-claim being affected by those roles. So the roleblock and jail must always affect HaruRH/Teemursu/The_Templar to be effective. If no roleblock is claimed, it would suggest to the (non-existent) jailor that he/she jailed the roleblocker. So, once one mafia fell, the claims of the other two should have become increasingly questionable Claiming VT I'll mention that although it worked to get Haru killed, I personally feel it is really a mistake to claim that you are a VT. Understand that this rarely provides any benefit to town (they can't trust you) but does provide benefit to mafia (they feel they shouldn't shoot you). Obviously you can be lying, but I feel that town tends to be more truthful about that sort of thing. Imagine that you are a cop and someone else in town claims VT. What does this mean? Maybe that player is a lying mafia (and is trying to get other people to claim VT) so they can narrow down who to shoot. Maybe that player is a truthful town, but in that case they have narrowed down who mafia should shoot. From my point of view, claiming VT is just making it easier for the mafia to kill your blue roles, and usually it should be held back. On this note, claiming VTs did help you identify HaruRH on D5, realize that this result was pretty much inevitable once The_Templar died. If we reached 3 players, no one would claim jailor and HaruRH would still die. I really don’t think mafia had any way to win after Templar died except by hoping town didn’t pay attention to the jailed claims. That said, I think Haru’s best shot after Templar was lynched was to try to steer the discussion in some direction (any direction!) as soon as possible so that people didn’t think about the night actions. I think the slow pace may have encouraged town to be willing to easily claim VT. Voting The votes Day 2 were almost certainly going to lynch a town. Looking at the vote count, it would only take one vote to pick between five different wagons! And, there were quite a few outs for players to try to move their votes to survive, even for legitimate reasons! If there are five wagons and all only have 2-3 votes, and you know there are probably 3-4 you also know that mafia can control the vote. On June 26 2014 13:01 Amiko wrote: Day 2 - Final Vote Count meatpudding (0): NydusHerMain (3): Tehpoofter, GlowingBear (0): Teemursu (2): Meatpudding, Epishade (2): HaruRH (0): Jabberwockzerg (2): mtamburini (2): HaruRH, NydusHerMain Not voting (1): Jabberwockzerg NydusHerMain was lynched with 3 votes. It really is just lucky that Teemursu wasn’t able to get his vote in on D3. I don’t think that would have necessarily ensured a mafia victory, but if mafia had three votes to play with, I really think it would have been difficult for this town to consolidate properly. Things I haven't written yet but want to address- > Some notes in the hostqt and obsqt for things to mention later > Templar scumslip > scum m373 > D4 vote and responses > Coaching related notes (glowingbear) > High scum activity; but not using town direction | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/p02zrNy.png) It was fun to WIFOM the mafia by asking them who was delivering KP when it made no difference ^_^ | ||
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HaruRH
Singapore2780 Posts
On July 05 2014 17:14 Amiko wrote: GG guys! I like discussing games after they finish up. I have more to write about, but here are some general thoughts I had while watching the game as a co-host. I'm still relatively new to forum mafia so I can be wrong or dumb on these things :D but they were what I thought as an observer, at least - All-Vanilla Setup I don't know if Slam had any lessons in mind when he decided to use an all-vanilla setup, but I think having an all-vanilla game stressed the value of attentiveness and scumhunting. This town didn't have any cop checks or medic saves to rely on - in fact, town actually had to disbelieve every power role claim and successfully lynched mafia day 3, 4, and 5. Mafia Fakeclaims I give mafia credit for bravery in their elaborate power role claims, but I feel it was SO risky and I don't think it was so necessary. The mafia claims essentially implied that the game included a jailer (town), roleblocker (town or mafia), and eventually also that there was a cop (town). First off, it poses problems if the actual blue roles are in the game. If there was a jailer in this game, wouldn't they tend to disbelieve the players claiming to be jailed (because 2 jailers seems so powerful!). Similarly, had there been a cop in the game, I feel they would have disbelieved HaruRH's claim (2 cops is wow!). This isn't to say that fake-claiming is a bad thing, particularly if it reveals the actual blue role. But here, the mafia's fake claims seemed like they may be overexersions. The fake claims implied the existence of 3 roles, but, only the three mafia would ever fake-claim being affected by those roles. So the roleblock and jail must always affect HaruRH/Teemursu/The_Templar to be effective. If no roleblock is claimed, it would suggest to the (non-existent) jailor that he/she jailed the roleblocker. So, once one mafia fell, the claims of the other two should have become increasingly questionable Claiming VT I'll mention that although it worked to get Haru killed, I personally feel it is really a mistake to claim that you are a VT. Understand that this rarely provides any benefit to town (they can't trust you) but does provide benefit to mafia (they feel they shouldn't shoot you). Obviously you can be lying, but I feel that town tends to be more truthful about that sort of thing. Imagine that you are a cop and someone else in town claims VT. What does this mean? Maybe that player is a lying mafia (and is trying to get other people to claim VT) so they can narrow down who to shoot. Maybe that player is a truthful town, but in that case they have narrowed down who mafia should shoot. From my point of view, claiming VT is just making it easier for the mafia to kill your blue roles, and usually it should be held back. On this note, claiming VTs did help you identify HaruRH on D5, realize that this result was pretty much inevitable once The_Templar died. If we reached 3 players, no one would claim jailor and HaruRH would still die. I really don’t think mafia had any way to win after Templar died except by hoping town didn’t pay attention to the jailed claims. That said, I think Haru’s best shot after Templar was lynched was to try to steer the discussion in some direction (any direction!) as soon as possible so that people didn’t think about the night actions. I think the slow pace may have encouraged town to be willing to easily claim VT. Voting The votes Day 2 were almost certainly going to lynch a town. Looking at the vote count, it would only take one vote to pick between five different wagons! And, there were quite a few outs for players to try to move their votes to survive, even for legitimate reasons! If there are five wagons and all only have 2-3 votes, and you know there are probably 3-4 you also know that mafia can control the vote. It really is just lucky that Teemursu wasn’t able to get his vote in on D3. I don’t think that would have necessarily ensured a mafia victory, but if mafia had three votes to play with, I really think it would have been difficult for this town to consolidate properly. Things I haven't written yet but want to address- > Some notes in the hostqt and obsqt for things to mention later > Templar scumslip > scum m373 > D4 vote and responses > Coaching related notes (glowingbear) > High scum activity; but not using town direction Lol amiko, we thought of this as well. Firstly, we knew that templar and teemu are usually not around during eod. This means that they could claim very late and still be fine. Secondly, by presenting myself and templar as 'top town', we made sure to divert attention to us, and all subsequent actions on us. Thats why I wanted templar to be the one carrying out actions since I had the possibilty to be jailed. Also, even if templar was jailed and couldn't shoot, his top town status ensured that people would believe he was shot but being jailed saved his ass. Third, I was worried about cop too. But the amount of people we blue read who scumread teemu early on but didnt come out with a red check on teemu means that it was safe to claim cop. The roleblock fake was useful - during lylo. Imagine youre presented with the situation : templar jailed hobbit d3, no roleblocks were claimed that day. This could only mean that hobbit was the roleblocker. Templar also made sure town couldnt consolidate votes properly d1, where he kept confusing town. Killing off tolkien only added to this effect since he was the only one worried about consolidating votes. I was definitely dead when templar didnt claim jail and died. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
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HaruRH
Singapore2780 Posts
On July 05 2014 19:42 marvellosity wrote: mafia fakeclaims threw the game for mafia it seems, much as how town fakeclaims often throw the game for town. No lol More like mafia not fakeclaiming this game would definitely lead to a loss I wouldnt be able to survive a lynch given how tunnelled people are Neither would templar | ||
The_Templar
your Country52798 Posts
Sorry. | ||
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Lord Tolkien
United States12084 Posts
LordTolkien 06-28-2014 03:47 AM ET (US) Anyways, Haru/Templar/Teemu are the scum now. I'm almost positive that's the team. Ahahaha. I have more critiques about town-play, but fake-claiming early on was, to reiterate, SUPER RISKY. It may be useful in LYLO, but if you get to lylo with a full scum team, chances are you win anyways if you're playing well and convince town there are scummier persons. Though I will say it did baffle me when you made that claim. Made me think that you and jailer were just super bad town as a possibility because no counter claim. You guys were however playing it well the first two days. Removing anyone who can possibly challenge your claims or were pointing out the obvious town plays. But again on town: 1) Make sure you have vote consolidation as par for the course. D2 was an example of a vote spread that should NEVER EVER HAPPEN, as it gives mafia undue influence in deciding who to vote. Or not vote, as they can potentially just let town hang themselves. Consolidation on a few bandwagons is essential. This applies to D3 as well, because if Teemu or Templar were online during the deadline, town would've continued the downward spiral, so remember, ALWAYS consolidate your votes, and if you don't, the leading bandwagon probably isn't mafia, unless it's a last-minute switch. This, along with pushing bandwagon, is town's best voting strength against scum. Another example is a single early-game bandwagon that no one has challenged seriously at all. Partially why I looked into MM1 as a counter-bandwagon ere I was killed. 2) Speculation on the possibility of a vigilante kill is useless unless there is a clear night where vigilante shot someone , OR VIGILANTE CLAIMS. Being sidetracked into a discussion D2 about it with no claim means you need to make THREE unsupported assumptions, mostly 1) vigilante is in the game, 2) vigilante shot someone N1 of all days, and 3) mafia shot someone and it was blocked by either the medic or the jailer. Unless vigi claims, don't talk about vigi shots, and just assume mafia shot them, because they probably did for their own reasons (apparently I made them think I was a blue, lol; I shoulda made a soft-vet fake claim Amikoooo~). Overall, despite 1 modkill and 2 subs. town did manage to scrape by with a lucky break D3. After that, mafia fakeclaims hung themselves. Because seriously, a cop asking to be jailed is the most baffling thing ever if you're town. Either mafia reacts and shoots you after the claim, and saves other town (who are less scummy and likely to get mislynched) and you contribute to town with at least town reads, or you do nothing. That sealed it for you, because no one is going to stand for obviously bad (claimed) blue play, in conjunction to non-contribution after D1-3. Personal note is that I shouldn't try and set myself up D1 as super vocal town. Or somehow convince mafia I'm blue role as VT. Unless it's a vet claim... I may try and join the next newbie mafia because it'll be my last one, but mafia is a major timeink so zz. | ||
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HaruRH
Singapore2780 Posts
On July 05 2014 22:47 The_Templar wrote: Yes I fucked up. Sorry. No you didnt fuck up You did what you thought was right I did what I thought was right Teemu did what he thought was right And we all learnt what is right I shouldnt have tunnelled and argued I shouldnt have played suboptimally I shouldnt have used meatpudding as a good excuse for reads I should have strongly pushed either of you and made it look real town I shouldnt have made people change their reads on me I shouldnt have let everyone flip their reads (I still find it dumb lol) I fked up | ||
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Hobbitus
222 Posts
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The_Templar
your Country52798 Posts
On July 06 2014 00:51 Hobbitus wrote: GG. Shout out to the scum team, you guys pretty much had the game except for a little bad luck. Also, Meatpudding should get some kind of award for hanging tough in the face of adversity. He should get an award for figuring out the entire scum team on day 1 in his first game ^.^ | ||
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GlowingBear
Brazil12446 Posts
Amiko, what about the coaching notes? I'm curious to know what you have to say | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
On July 05 2014 22:47 Lord Tolkien wrote: (apparently I made them think I was a blue, lol; I shoulda made a soft-vet fake claim Amikoooo~). No vet possible was possible in this game buddy! But hey you could certainly try ^^ On July 06 2014 01:16 GlowingBear wrote: Amiko, what about the coaching notes? I'm curious to know what you have to say I'll write some more comments this evening or tomorrow I think! | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25562 Posts
Blazinghand Coaching NydusHerMain http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/KunfPNcGy8K Blazinghand Coaching MysteryMeat1 http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/rrFXBgfvddwE Blazinghand Coaching Epishade http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/RY7usYmxjwvy Much props to my students for making effective use of me as a coaching resource! | ||
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Alakaslam
United States17336 Posts
On July 06 2014 03:36 Blazinghand wrote: I did some great work with the setup balance & ideas... As a madman I change quotes  Yes once BH mentioned that all VT was viable for 15 players I had the juices flow across the gears such that they were lubricated for turning | ||
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GlowingBear
Brazil12446 Posts
On July 06 2014 03:36 Blazinghand wrote: I did some great work coaching if anyone wants to read about what we talked about. Blazinghand Coaching NydusHerMain http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/KunfPNcGy8K Blazinghand Coaching MysteryMeat1 http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/rrFXBgfvddwE Blazinghand Coaching Epishade http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/RY7usYmxjwvy Much props to my students for making effective use of me as a coaching resource! ROFL I had somewhere around 60 messages with my coach.. | ||
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Epishade
United States2267 Posts
On July 06 2014 03:36 Blazinghand wrote: I did some great work coaching if anyone wants to read about what we talked about. Blazinghand Coaching NydusHerMain http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/KunfPNcGy8K Blazinghand Coaching MysteryMeat1 http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/rrFXBgfvddwE Blazinghand Coaching Epishade http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/RY7usYmxjwvy Much props to my students for making effective use of me as a coaching resource! I couldn't have lasted as long without you! All hail Blazingfist! | ||
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