Thanks for putting this together gonzaw! Looks pretty cool.
I think I'd be more likely to use this as a player, assuming those thoughts/reads pages are still there, but I'll have to give it a try from both sides.
I can see how vote counts that are automated using dropdowns could save time, especially in some of the larger games. It would also ensure that you don't accidentally count a player twice. I think you would still have the snapshot, assuming you copy and paste it into the thread periodically, although I suppose you don't have the unvote records wouldn't be there.
I meant to try it out when you posted it in the newbie thread, but then I totally forgot about it until day three XD
On March 03 2014 18:43 marvellosity wrote: No way I'm reading all that.
Re: votecounts, unless it saves votecounts at various points it's useless. One of the major points about votecounts is that they are snapshots of the game at a particular stage and useful to go back to.
The current votecount is useful for....you know....knowing who is getting lynched and shit. Like, wasn't it the Shadowed Mafia game where jay claimed Doctor on D1 because he didn't know if he was getting lynched or not, and he wasn't or something like that? Having an easy to access votecount is important.
But yes, the "history of votecounts" thing is important too. But since this "history" would be updated every time someone unvotes or votes, it would grow large VERY soon. We'd have to figure out how to make this super large history be easily accessible in the spreadsheet, where to put it, etc. Also how exactly you and others would want to use it. Right now, the "historic votecounts" appear in the thread, and you know what posts appear after and before it. If this votecount appeared in the spreadsheet, would you know to what post, or what time in the thread it corresponds to? How would you like to know?
One thing that can be made possible, is to have the host/cohost add the link to the post in the thread (where the vote happened) when he adds a vote or unvote in the spreadsheet. This creates a new snapshot of the votecount, but it includes the post in the thread where it happened. Then this is stored somewhere in the spreadsheet. Now you can see the votecount, know at what time it happened, and check the post that made it possible. But this still has that "cumbersome" problem from above (too many votecounts, may be impossible to check them), and it gives the hosts more problems (instead of using the dropdown list, they'd have to use a menu, go check a guy's post, copy the link, put it in the menu, confirm, etc; this is too slow when the host needs to keep a very updated votecount, for instance when last minute shenannigans happen)
On March 04 2014 00:28 kitaman27 wrote: I think I'd be more likely to use this as a player, assuming those thoughts/reads pages are still there, but I'll have to give it a try from both sides.
The "thoughts/reads" pages would work for single players though. This is a single spreadsheet every player has access too. Don't know how to make it work that way :/
I can see how vote counts that are automated using dropdowns could save time, especially in some of the larger games. It would also ensure that you don't accidentally count a player twice. I think you would still have the snapshot, assuming you copy and paste it into the thread periodically, although I suppose you don't have the unvote records wouldn't be there.
I never really understood the "unvote records" thing. Like, they just look like someone's name crossed out, it doesn't give me much info other than at some random point in the day phase that guy voted him? But it doesn't tell you when he voted him, or the context information about the vote (i.e the actual votecount).
I never paid attention to those. Hell, in fact at some points they were kind of annoying since at times I think someone has lots of votes when skimming, but they just have lots of "unvotes"
On March 03 2014 14:50 thrawn2112 wrote: yeah i guess at this point i'm just being obstinate.
however it would be nice for foolishness or somebody to endorse the idea of allowing hosts to use the spreadsheet instead of having to do all that other stuff. you know.. something *official* like "thrawn you are no longer required to post vote counts or keep an up to date OP"
On March 03 2014 14:26 gonzaw wrote: One problem I can see, is that the spreadsheet is not "annonymous". I.e, if I go check it, then my google account will show up there. So, imagine I'm a lurking scum. I come home, and start checking the thread and the spreadsheet, and my scum QT to see how things are going. Right now, I could say "Hmm, I'll go lurk some more" and never post in the thread. But if my google account shows up in the spreadsheet, every townie in there will see me opening it. Thus, everybody knows I'm active, and I can't hide my lurking anymore.
This is similar to the "Who is online" feature OMGUS has. It doesn't break the games, since they keep playing mafia games there, but it is a significant change from the usual stuff TL does.
Either we live with it, or find a way to overcome it. I'm not too sure how to overcome it using Google stuff, but we could discuss it (maybe have people have dummy accounts to access it, or something I dunno).
On March 03 2014 14:09 thrawn2112 wrote: anyways i've already set one up to run along with foundation mafia. I guess that after the game ends i'll try to figure out if any of the players or obsers felt like it was a thing worth having
Cool! Nice to know you didn't encounter problems doing so.
Anyways, yeah, I'm just the dude developing all this shit. You guys decide if it's worth it, or how to use it
Easy, just like irc. Have it open 24/7 so noone knows wether you're really there or just afk while leaving your PC on.
In the "time before deadline section," there are 2 rows, one called "days" and one called "time." Right now if you look at the time section it says there are about 21 hours left in D1. At first I thought this was an error (there are actually about 45 hours left) until I noticed that in the "days" row it says "1." So I'm assuming that it's meant to mean there is 1 day + 21 hours remaining in the cycle?
At first it was a little confusing because I read "time" as meaning "total time remaing." It's not a glitch or anything, just something that tripped me up a little and maybe could use some clairfication.
If nobody else had this problem then i'm probably just a little slow
@Toad: Yeah, I followed thrawn's advice on how to deal with it. Updated the FAQ section
@thrawn: I don't think I fully understand your problem. But ideally, when you start the Day Phase, it will say "2 Days remaining", then from then on "1 Day remaining, X time remaining". At the 24 hour mark, it will then say "0 Days remaining, X time remaining", etc.
I think it's more clear to talk with days, and use a 24h time cycle, than just put everything in the time, and maybe have stuff like "The time remaining is 56:34:00" which is less clear than "There are 2 days remaining, with remaining time 8:34:00"
So, it seems most of the "problems" stem from the fact that the host/cohosts and players ALWAYS view the same info, and you can't make specific players, host/cohosts, etc, view and edit specific info themselves.
I'm not exactly sure if this problem has a solution (whether clean or dirty). Is someone familiar with Google Spreadsheets and Google App Script enough to know if such a thing could be done? If so please PM me.
On March 04 2014 11:28 gonzaw wrote: So, it seems most of the "problems" stem from the fact that the host/cohosts and players ALWAYS view the same info, and you can't make specific players, host/cohosts, etc, view and edit specific info themselves.
bingo
It's kinda a slippery slope. For example at first I wanted the spreadsheet to contain role information. If I get that I will probably want the spreadsheet to have a perfect knowledge of role/setup mechanics and be able to resolve night actions for me so that I only have to input the actions. Then I would probably want to allow specific players the ability to submit their own actions and votes while keeping their role identiy hidden. Then I'll probably demand a TL forum bot that can take information from the spreadsheet and use it to autmatically post day and night posts.
But the main issue still remains: Forum mafia is "archaic".
Everything is done manually, there are little tools to help, and even less (i.e nonexistent) tools to automate the process. I think this spreadsheet is a step in the right direction.
We can embellish it and add more features to it as time goes by. For instance, we can make the spreadsheet create 1 "master" spreadsheet with all the info only hosts can view (roles, alignments, night and day actions, etc). We can also create 1 spreadsheet per player, so that each player has a spreadsheet with all the info they want. You can include their role and alignment there, a link to their obs qt, one sheet per night/day phase with all the stuff they may need in there (yes, perhaps even the "Reads/Thoughts" section).
That would be my vision for version 2.0 of the spreadsheet. But...it's kind of hard work, so it'll take time and effort and shit (not really literal shit).
It is indeed a "slippery slope", because those are stuff EVERYBODY needs or wants, but it just doesn't exist. If there were actually tools and shit to help hosts and players with their forum mafia games, there would be no "slippery slope", we'd already be at the end of it.
Hell, if places like epicmafia have this kind of stuff, why not forum mafia?
WE CAN DO IT PEOPLE, I HAVE A DREAM, I.....
...okay maybe I'm getting too overexcited. But the point is there, we have to slowly grow and evolve with time. The seeds are already planted.
My main "dream" was doing that "Mafia System" from before (which would have all the stuff you said in there). But that would be a fucking huge project I could not possibly do on my own (with my spare time and motivation). I think this spreadsheet thing is a better place to start
5)When I try to confirm an action in the menu of the spreadsheet, or try to open a menu, the spreadsheets gets stuck for a long time. Do I confirm it again, or do something?
Yes, this would be some lag from the spreadsheet. Either it is normal internet lag, or for some reason the action is taking too long to be executed in the spreadsheet server. Either way, the best thing to do is to wait. If it gets stuck for too long, then maybe you could try closing the spreadsheet and opening it again. If you are at a menu (for instance the "End Day Phase" one), do not hit the Confirm button again. This will only cause the same action to be executed twice (at some point) in the spreadsheet. This will cause the spreadsheet to have inconsistent data (for example have a player be lynched twice), and it may break the spreadsheet somehow (it's hard to know beforehand, it depends on the action, how much time was spent between the two confirmations, and more variables). So it's safer to just wait, or close the spreadsheet and try again later (if the action hasn't completed by then)
How does exactly the "official" votecounts work? You know, with the unvote thingy. When someone voted for someone else at ANY point in the day phase, but is now not currently voting him, you add him with that crossed out thingy? If not, how does it work then?
So I'm trying to implement a new type of voting in the spreadsheet. This voting is done in a "sequential" way. The host puts each vote and each unvote as it happens in the thread. He does so under the Voting History section, which is a new one I created.
Here are the new columns there: Username: The host here chooses the username of the player casting the vote Vote: The host here chooses the username of the player that dude is voting. Alternatively, he can choose "Unvote" if it means the player is unvoting. Votecount ... Here, you get a "snapshot" of the voting count, the moment that vote happened. So if in the line it says "Balla - Unvote", next to it, it shows you the voting count the moment Balla made his unvote. Since I found it impossible to show an entire votecount in a single row, without it being a fucking monster with 1000 foot tall rows, I decided to add each votecount as a "comment". To see the votecount, you just need to hover over the dark cell next to it. Then a popup will appear (like the one shown in the image above), with the votecount in "plain" text.
Yeah, it is ugly. But you can just copy+paste the votecount somewhere else if you want to get a good look at it. The point is that it allows said info to be there without breaking the whole sheet.
Also, because there can be a lot of votes in a single day, there is a new menu entry "Add New Rows To Voting Count" or something like that, which adds 5 more rows to the "Voting History" section.
Oh, also the stuff from the "Votes" section above (each single vote, and the current votecount), are automatically updated too.
Also, to make it easier to copy+paste this votecount into the thread, I added the "Unvote" thing. Since you can't have a strikethrough (e.g test) in the same cell as normal text, I had to add the unvotes next to that "Unvotes (X): " line. It's ugly, and hosts may need some work to add the strikethrough to them before posting them in the thread, but it's a start.
Anyways, what do you guys think about it? I almost have it finished (just have to test it a little more). But tell me if I'm missing some core feature there that you guys may want.
Is there a way to replace a voting thread with your spreadsheet instead so as to avoid host error and whatnot? Enables real time counts and makes people use it more.
Dunno. Google Spreadsheet kind of sucks in the permission area, so dunno if it'd be possible. Either way, not having the votes, either in the thread or in a voting thread, makes it so unless you have the spreadsheet it's impossible to know the voting count.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj144/gonzaw1/MafiaSpreadsheet/voting_history_spreadsheet_zpse9346f9e.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.my-favorite-coloring.net/Images/Large/Famous-characters-Troll-face-Okay-meme-face-195568.png)
