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United States3230 Posts
@Wave
No, my frustration was real. You were frustrating me when you were misinterpreting my posts and if I was town and not trying to improve my behavior, I could've easily turned on the "Asshole Cora" switch and made myself look town for it. However, when it got to the time I could do that, I just took a break and hoped I could fix things tomorrow.
I fucked up with not reading everything and then posting comments about it. All in all, I played a really bad game but my hat's off to Rayn who basically figured out I was scum and beat the living shit out of me with his arguments until I decided to give up.
I had to do something for our scum team because CC and Artanis literally put 0 effort into this game, so I was basically the entire scum team. They gave me no support when the pressure was on me and I hope that Aqua/other hosts will take a subjective look at the player roles and perhaps re-roll or tweak them a bit in order to make it fair/not frustrating for the 1 scum that is trying.
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rayn the reason i was bsing about wbg is I didn't want him nightkilled. i was gonna drop it right before d2
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On January 10 2014 02:13 thrawn2112 wrote:
rayn the reason i was bsing about wbg is I didn't want him nightkilled. i was gonna drop it right before d2
that sort of thing causes more confusion than the goal you're striving for is worth. it's only ever worth doing anything like this if you're universally considered town, so that mafia will be paying attention to what you think + town will not get up your ass for behaving weirdly
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I wasn't really worried about that tbh. I think I underestimated how many people thought I could be scum. I'm not doing 8 page D1s anymore so I think I should reevaluate what I can get away with
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
best way to play town is usually not to do things that you think you'll have to "get away with" 
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Like your last post i quoted seemed like you were implying you wanted "advice" from WBG, "even if he is scum". That didn't make sense to me. Asking opinions is fine.
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On January 10 2014 02:24 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Like your last post i quoted seemed like you were implying you wanted "advice" from WBG, "even if he is scum". That didn't make sense to me. Asking opinions is fine.
That bit was me qq'ing about everyone I was talking to and less about bugs. I didn't think he was scum at all.
meant to be an insult in the form of ... wbg's scummy advice is probably better than all your town advice
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Okay. 
Well i found Artanis and was going to convince a possible vigi to shoot him but then the game ended.
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You might have been able to swing me that way. He was on my list of possible shots. I had a significant amount of filter-diving to do, but kush wasn't set in stone. I really just figured that most people would be ok with that shot given their previous frustration with him. There's also pretty much no way scum was shooting him, so there was no way I could be counterclaimed or otherwise be shenaniganned into a mislynch.
Cora, is there a particular reason that you didn't respond to any of my posts? Was it that you knew I likely wouldn't push all that hard if there was no reaction, or did you see them as just not worth responding to? Or something else?
Edit: I only ask because I'm trying to move myself along. At many game endings I find myself just saying "well, I guess I did something wrong..." but I never actually figure what it was. So next game I end up in the same mindset, except with some additional "I suck" added on.
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I really like your playstyle Bugs, when you started giving your thoguhts about pressuring people i felt like "wtf is this me posting or what". Hope i'll be seeing you in other games aswell.
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United States3230 Posts
@Fuba
I didn't respond to you b/c every time you posted, I was asleep.
Also, I barely read your posts and didn't see any difference from the other stuff I was being accused of. Sorry 
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Bugs was my favorite opponent in Smurf. I love you bugsybaby. Please don't leave, I want to play another game with you some time. Palmar too, though I am not sure which was more upsetting to him; that I won or that it was kush that he lost with.
Didn't read a single post of the game except CC's rage post but maybe I'll check it out some time. If marv has that many decent things to say then it must be worth going through even if relatively quickly.
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Bugs I have to say I'm in agreement with marv here, which is odd because aside from ingame stuff (where we agree on basically everything) I don't usually agree with him. I don't think this game was very bad at all. Kush bein' kush aside, everyone put in a reasonable amount of effort; yes some more than others but that's just how a game goes.
I guess it just makes me curious as to what a game that would fit your parameters of a 'good game' would look like---this was probably actually one of the better games I've played in a while (though I admit there is the distinct possibility that you are right and there is some slight 'town victory' bias.)
Please don't leave again though, as I said in game, your play was pretty damn refreshing to experience in this day and age and perhaps more people will recognize what decent play looks like and strive to emulate? As an aside, is that why you decided to /out the Shadow game? Because if so I'd urge you to reconsider and take back your spot (from me, as it were)---most if not all of the players in that game will probably give you the kind of game you're looking for, and the more highly skilled players in that game, the better the experience will be for those who want to follow it as well.
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I actually don't have as much time as I expected I would, particularly as I recently found out that I'll need to be moving. While it isn't entirely a time issue for me (it's also a motivation issue) I don't feel comfortable committing to a game in which I think I would probably be about as useful as some of the players I flame for being lurkers.
I appreciate the nice words on my play but I really don't think it was all that special.
I would say that some nice games to read at least IMO and sort of ordered by usefulness are:
Some Mafia Game.
One of my first games on the forum, I wasn't satisfied with my play, especially as I was pretty new but I think other players in the game displayed some pretty decent play, particularly the scum and what they were able to get away with. My first exposure to kush-like players started here (although I think saying that might truly be an insult to sinani). The really nice thing about this game is that Ace provided some really good analysis and notes in the postgame. Town didn't have a great overall showing but individual play was pretty decent.
PYP: Interesting
This is a PM game but I think one of the single strongest showings by town, if not the strongest, I've seen on the forum. Much of the PM action is sadly hidden away and I can try to provide some more details if necessary as to what happened but the postgame analysis mostly does it justice as far as I could remember.
Storm Mafia
I was pretty fucking pissed off at RoL in the postgame for this one but I still think it was a pretty good showing from all sides. BC, RoL, myself, and layabout were on the scumteam, while town had syllo and kita, both of whom are pretty fucking scary townies, especially as kita was a goddamn hider IIRC. I believe VE was the SK who ended up winning? I think. I think I mostly succeeded in my goal in completely distracting town as much as I could. I play an active scum because to deviate from my town play would result in certain death (also cause I have to shit up the thread anyway :p ). I think this game is a good learning experience from several different perspectives. From scum perspective you can read the game through BC's or my shoes, from town's both syllo and kita played really well, and VE gave an incredible 3p performance.
Mini X. I've cited this game before as one of my favorites that I've participated in. It has a very low overall post count compared to games we get today, but the content and quality of the posts from almost everyone in the game are quite good. I think this was jaybrundage's first or one of his very first games on the forum-everyone else in the game was reasonably experienced by that point I think, with at least half a dozen games or so.
Mafia XLIV
There is nothing at all amazing about this game-in fact, as a 30 player game most of it is awful, but I remember it well because it was my first game. It is, in fact, a textbook example of why lurkers and useless townies lose games and make for a very unpleasant playing experience-there were like 5 or 6 inactivity modkills and even among the players who were left, most of them did nothing. I tried games of this size for a long time afterward but I don't think I really ever enjoyed them unless they were themed with a fair number of good players in the ranks. The only reason I am linking it here is because of how Foolishness played in this game (and basically every game I've seen him roll town). In a sea full of average and against cresting waves of jubjub Foolishness always manages to have stellar reads and an uncanny ability to go from completely nondescript to town leader within hours. Maybe it's the way he presents his cases, his reputation of being really accurate, the fear he instills among scum, his sexiness, or just everything in combination, but I think anyone who wants to get better at the game should learn from how he plays.
Couple's therapy.
This game was also controversial for the endgame but overall a pretty interesting learning experience I think. It's basically a 9 role mini with 18 players hydraed in pairs-since there was almost always at least one of the members of each pair in the thread at any given time, even if some of the players were inactive there was bound to be some representation from everyone at every point in the game, so participation on the whole was quite high.
Liar Game
Setup was weird and aside from one or two people for the most part the caliber of the game was really high because it was an invite game. Kinda confusing especially without the PMs in hindsight though. I'd say the same for Bureaucracy Mafia, although I lived only to die n1 in that game, so my memory is pretty weak there.
e: I will also say that I was pretty pleased with some of the games I hosted, though a couple were relatively lopsided.
I cohosted one with Incog, I forget which. XVIII? XVII? something like that. Radfield was in that game if I remember correctly and he, like Foolishness, always is spot on as town.
Arkham Asylum hosted by BC is a decent example of how a strong scumteam can tear apart town. Some of our plays were kinda dumb and excessive or unnecessary, but we more than made up for it by acting cohesively, planning out our moves well in advance, providing the newer players on the team with leadership to prevent them from doing dumb things, and keeping constant pressure on town with high levels of activity.
Read day 1 of Kaller game and my filter for the lulz: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=313991&user=wherebugsgo&view=all (also GoT mafia in which I was an unkillable 3p. I just trolled all the time)
And then LoTR Mafia, another one of those games with a pretty controversial endgame.
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To be honest I think both of you (bugs and marv) have a point.
- Town could have played better
- Town did play better than the majority of games in the last 6 months
The atmosphere wasn't absolutely ideal, but nobody ragequit and nobody spent the entire game flaming. That made it possible to find scum. Sure, logical fallacies and so forth in people's arguments might have made town fall short against a skilled scumteam, but a non-toxic thread is the first requirement.
Activity from some players could have been better, but nobody was in the modkill zone. (I suspect Kush would have started playing more effectively if the game had gone on longer, since he was no longer playing in Extractor Trick as well. Also because I think IIRC his play generally improves past d1.)
A quick aside: When I saw the signup list, even before I'd assigned roles, I knew this was going to be a rough game for scum. I know at least four people on this list have much better towngame than scumgame, and there was very little in the way of lynchbait. (Compare with, say, Titanic I, in which I looked at the signup list and figured scum probably had it.)
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
that wasn't really the argument, but ok..
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I don't think it's pro town to be so hostile to people who admit they haven't read.
Instead why not try to engage them, like "read this and tell me what you think"
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Thats cause you never read Kush. You are biased.
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that's completely untrue. I read the whole game in about half the games I'm in. It depends on how much time I have.
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Also, a lot of people don't read. They are busy one day, 30 pages behind, and it's just not an effective use of their time to try to read all that. Especially when most of it is spam/conversation.
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EPT
