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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On January 09 2014 05:17 Blazinghand wrote:
OH I TOTALLY FORGOT
SO I was thinking about the setup and spent a long time discussing it with co-hosts and foolishness since 10-man setups are hard. Here's what we went for:
3 scum (goon goon rb)
7 town (4x VT, 1x Pcop, 1x Vet, 1x vigi)
This meant town would get 3 bites at the apple to hit a scum (D1 lynch, N1 shot, D2 lynch) and if they hit a scum in time, they'd make it to D3 and have the pcop check. Obviously this didn't work out, though the amazing N1 might have made up for it.
What do you guys think about the balance? I was worried it would be a bit town-favored with the vet, but maybe it was actually scum-favored?
It should be scum favoured really, mafia simply have an extra member of their faction over the usual 7-2 split. That counts for a lot really. Town strengths rely on things going right or being lucky (cop not getting roleblocked either night, cop not getting killed, veteran getting hit, vigi hitting the right target) whereas mafia have the large static advantage of another member which isn't mitigated by luck or happenstance.
Maybe replace vet with doctor?
Additionally the possibility of a godfather actually makes parity cop checks not that reliable, which makes town even weaker.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
1 standard cop 1 jailkeeper 1 vigi is maybe more about the right sort of area. With mafia KP being delivered rather than factional
I think that's closer to what i'd consider balanced
edit: basically town needs to have *serious* compensation when standard play leads to a day 2 mylo rather than a day 3 mylo/lylo
edit 2: standard cop so that town gets some help on day 2 when it is quite possibly mylo
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On January 09 2014 05:30 Hopeless1der wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2014 05:21 yamato77 wrote:On January 09 2014 05:21 Hopeless1der wrote:
He can rage all he wants but I think if yamato had not gone on tilt and actually played to his best, scumteam would have been crushed. From a pure setup speculation I'd call this game town favored and with the rolls on roles even more so. Well, it's your fault for refusing to reconsider your position on me whatsoever and ignoring the other 3 unconfirmed players in the game entirely. At least I had reads on them. Yes. Let it be known that hopeless1der was solely responsible for getting yamato lynched. No other player had any say in the matter nor could they or yamato himself have affected the outcome in any way. All bow to the hopeless one.
Pfft
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
The reason I went for a Vet over a Doc is in part because a Doc or JK has a chance of stopping a good vigi bullet, but a Vet can only stop a bad one.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
yeah but that's a really niche reason to give town a substantially weaker role
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
I was thinking of this as being "town has 3 lynches, but one of them is a vigi shot instead of a lynch" kind of dealie. I was leery of giving town a regular Cop which would be potentially active D2. Perhaps the best would be to remove the possibility of a gf role, but the way this played out (with rayn claiming cop a few hours into D1) might have bungled that up anyways.
E: maybe the solution would be to downgrade the Vet to a JK and change the Parity Cop to a Cop?
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On January 09 2014 06:24 Blazinghand wrote:
I was thinking of this as being "town has 3 lynches, but one of them is a vigi shot instead of a lynch" kind of dealie. I was leery of giving town a regular Cop which would be potentially active D2. Perhaps the best would be to remove the possibility of a gf role, but the way this played out (with rayn claiming cop a few hours into D1) might have bungled that up anyways.
E: maybe the solution would be to downgrade the Vet to a JK and change the Parity Cop to a Cop?
Isn't that what I suggested? lol
edit: the thing with the cop is that town needs the cop to be active specifically on day 2 rather than day 3, simply because town lynch + mafia NK = mylo on day 2. But keep the gf as a possibility at least for some balance/indecision
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Yeah the setup was slightly scum favoured IMO but that is probably due to how town biased I find *PROPERLY played IML games.
Basically everyone blaming each other can look at themselves because these days need to last 75 hours, and you can catch scum with infinite time.
Towns best lynch was on yamato and even then it was 20 hours too early. 7 hour or two hour days is just wasting your advantage as town in this setup.
Also the lack of effective pressure during the days on anyone other than the person being tunneled was poorly played. You are town, you control the lynch. You need to scrutinize everyone for every move they make and make proper use of the longer days that you are supposed to possess.
All in all, well played scum team. No one played well on the town side at all.
Kind of a sad game to be honest. Do people really not know how to play Instant majority lynch games properly?
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On January 09 2014 06:24 Blazinghand wrote:
I was thinking of this as being "town has 3 lynches, but one of them is a vigi shot instead of a lynch" kind of dealie. I was leery of giving town a regular Cop which would be potentially active D2. Perhaps the best would be to remove the possibility of a gf role, but the way this played out (with rayn claiming cop a few hours into D1) might have bungled that up anyways.
E: maybe the solution would be to downgrade the Vet to a JK and change the Parity Cop to a Cop?
I think it is fine because IML games are incredibly good for town if played correctly which counter acts what would clearly be a scum favored setup in a normal lynch game.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
yeah, I would add that scum definitely didn't win this because the setup was maybe scum-favoured a bit, they were good value for it.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
yeah fuck IML, my only scum loss came in IML...
the thing about playing scum in a normal lynch game is that you can pace everything you do, you can time things out, you know when you need to have things done by. in IML this is impossible, so you can't organise your play... it's horrible :p
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On January 09 2014 06:30 marvellosity wrote:
yeah, I would add that scum definitely didn't win this because the setup was maybe scum-favoured a bit, they were good value for it.
Yeah I know that scum would have won either way, just looking to improve this setup in case I run it again. If a close game is lost due to setup imba that would be unsatisfactory for everyone.
so if I ran this again what if we had:
IML, silent nights
3 scum - goon goon RB
7 town - vt vt vt vt cop jk vigi
or similar balance? ie 3 "strong" blue roles? we wouldn't run it as Open of course, and might also want to consider options like 2 very strong blue roles like jk + 2-shot vigi, or 4 weaker blue roles so that it's not breakable by claims
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11589 Posts
On January 09 2014 05:43 yamato77 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2014 05:30 Hopeless1der wrote:On January 09 2014 05:21 yamato77 wrote:On January 09 2014 05:21 Hopeless1der wrote:
He can rage all he wants but I think if yamato had not gone on tilt and actually played to his best, scumteam would have been crushed. From a pure setup speculation I'd call this game town favored and with the rolls on roles even more so. Well, it's your fault for refusing to reconsider your position on me whatsoever and ignoring the other 3 unconfirmed players in the game entirely. At least I had reads on them. Yes. Let it be known that hopeless1der was solely responsible for getting yamato lynched. No other player had any say in the matter nor could they or yamato himself have affected the outcome in any way. All bow to the hopeless one. I literally argued down every point someone made against me but you ignored my posts and kept repeating the same shit. After a while I just stop trying.
To add to this, one argument I remember in specific was the stupid "town yamato would have considered himself a possible NK" thing.
Really, you need to evaluate the reasons you were calling me mafia. They were bad.
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I would say don't run it again because 10 player games are hard to balance.
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The setup was fine. I fucked up on D1 and Sentinel and Hopeless fucked up on D2. I would have solved the game if people would have given me more time on D2, i was already going to lynch kush, i jsut wanted other people to contribute.
I love games where there are only little tiwm (MYLO D2). It forces people to play.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
yeah. that sounds about right to me.
depending on how good you think IML is for town, you could always turn JK back into vet again or something.
Or you could give scum a godfather with those 3 roles that you suggested. That might be a better solution
but not far off either way
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On January 09 2014 06:24 Blazinghand wrote:
I was thinking of this as being "town has 3 lynches, but one of them is a vigi shot instead of a lynch" kind of dealie. I was leery of giving town a regular Cop which would be potentially active D2. Perhaps the best would be to remove the possibility of a gf role, but the way this played out (with rayn claiming cop a few hours into D1) might have bungled that up anyways.
E: maybe the solution would be to downgrade the Vet to a JK and change the Parity Cop to a Cop?
This isn't how balance works.
Even with a vigi to be balanced with 3 mafia you need at least 8 townies, preferably 9 or even 10.
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
I think the D2 LYLO (which is what happens if scum hits and the vigi misses) is pretty solid also, though it's best with IML where on D2 town can take some time to think if they need to.
What do people think of the silent nights? I actually really like them. I think a lot of night talking has the potential to be dumb. The downside is that last minute claim shenannies and crumbs that happen at night can't happen (though maybe this is an upside?)
In any case any input on that would be great.
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yamato this is why i thought you were mafia:
On January 07 2014 12:54 raynpelikoneet wrote:
If you are town i would assume you would be willing to admit you made a mistake and instead of banging your head against the wall with voting for Hopeless you would say something like "okay guys, since you CC/Sent/rayn want to lynch me over Hopeless let's try it this way. At least take your votes off me, because it's clear me and Hopeless are not both mafia, let me and Hopeless give reads on Coagulation/kush/Alakaslam and discuss those reads, because there is at least one mafia in that pool".
That would be reasonable. Unless you are mafia and know when you flip Hopeless becomes "confirmed" and you don't wanna out your scumbuddy.
So why are you being stubborn and not taking different approach?
When you started doing stuff i reconsidered.
Then, when i ESPECIALLY stated i want to hear from ALL of other people (Slam,Hopeless,kush,Coag), ALL of those people decided to hammer. + Sentinel, that was the worst vote of D2.
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On January 09 2014 06:44 Blazinghand wrote:
I think the D2 LYLO (which is what happens if scum hits and the vigi misses) is pretty solid also, though it's best with IML where on D2 town can take some time to think if they need to.
What do people think of the silent nights? I actually really like them. I think a lot of night talking has the potential to be dumb. The downside is that last minute claim shenannies and crumbs that happen at night can't happen (though maybe this is an upside?)
In any case any input on that would be great.
Night talk helps town. For example, if there was night talk in this game i could have told at least kush is mafia on N2 (but on the other hand i am not sure if thrawn could have convinced Sentinel of not being scum).
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EPT
