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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
On January 09 2014 06:47 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2014 06:44 Blazinghand wrote:
I think the D2 LYLO (which is what happens if scum hits and the vigi misses) is pretty solid also, though it's best with IML where on D2 town can take some time to think if they need to.
What do people think of the silent nights? I actually really like them. I think a lot of night talking has the potential to be dumb. The downside is that last minute claim shenannies and crumbs that happen at night can't happen (though maybe this is an upside?)
In any case any input on that would be great. Night talk helps town. For example, if there was night talk in this game i could have told at least kush is mafia on N2 (but on the other hand i am not sure if thrawn could have convinced Sentinel of not being scum).
Interesting. Do you think night talk is fun/good? Like if it's a slight town helper, and we got rid of it while still keeping the game balanced in some other way (adding IML, or whatever) would that be an improvement to the fun factor? Or would it make the game less fun?
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On January 09 2014 06:48 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2014 06:47 raynpelikoneet wrote:On January 09 2014 06:44 Blazinghand wrote:
I think the D2 LYLO (which is what happens if scum hits and the vigi misses) is pretty solid also, though it's best with IML where on D2 town can take some time to think if they need to.
What do people think of the silent nights? I actually really like them. I think a lot of night talking has the potential to be dumb. The downside is that last minute claim shenannies and crumbs that happen at night can't happen (though maybe this is an upside?)
In any case any input on that would be great. Night talk helps town. For example, if there was night talk in this game i could have told at least kush is mafia on N2 (but on the other hand i am not sure if thrawn could have convinced Sentinel of not being scum). Interesting. Do you think night talk is fun/good? Like if it's a slight town helper, and we got rid of it while still keeping the game balanced in some other way (adding IML, or whatever) would that be an improvement to the fun factor? Or would it make the game less fun?
I like it because it gives you some time to recharge without having to post a whole bunch.
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On January 09 2014 06:48 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2014 06:47 raynpelikoneet wrote:On January 09 2014 06:44 Blazinghand wrote:
I think the D2 LYLO (which is what happens if scum hits and the vigi misses) is pretty solid also, though it's best with IML where on D2 town can take some time to think if they need to.
What do people think of the silent nights? I actually really like them. I think a lot of night talking has the potential to be dumb. The downside is that last minute claim shenannies and crumbs that happen at night can't happen (though maybe this is an upside?)
In any case any input on that would be great. Night talk helps town. For example, if there was night talk in this game i could have told at least kush is mafia on N2 (but on the other hand i am not sure if thrawn could have convinced Sentinel of not being scum). Interesting. Do you think night talk is fun/good? Like if it's a slight town helper, and we got rid of it while still keeping the game balanced in some other way (adding IML, or whatever) would that be an improvement to the fun factor? Or would it make the game less fun?
It helps in a sense that there is +1 townie (the night kill) to analyze the results of the lynch and votes.
Kinda important especially in IML games imo. 
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
when weighing up whether to play a game or not, no night talk would definitely push me towards not playing
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On January 09 2014 06:43 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2014 06:24 Blazinghand wrote:
I was thinking of this as being "town has 3 lynches, but one of them is a vigi shot instead of a lynch" kind of dealie. I was leery of giving town a regular Cop which would be potentially active D2. Perhaps the best would be to remove the possibility of a gf role, but the way this played out (with rayn claiming cop a few hours into D1) might have bungled that up anyways.
E: maybe the solution would be to downgrade the Vet to a JK and change the Parity Cop to a Cop? This isn't how balance works. Even with a vigi to be balanced with 3 mafia you need at least 8 townies, preferably 9 or even 10.
to expound on this:
The worst case is very very hard for town to deal with.
7 v 3 in the worst case is lylo at d2 if there's a vigi. WTF? It's basically like taking a regular mini game and chopping off all of cycle 1. That's fucking awful for town.
Day 1 lynches are worse than random and it's pretty easy to see why. Day 1 is the worst for town and the best for scum, statistically scum is going to mislynch the shit out of town a vast majority of the time on day 1. On day 1 town has no information-the game is about catchup. Mafia, on the other hand, know what all the alignments are and are under no particular suspicion of their own.
The worst case for mafia, on the other hand, requires a day 1 correct lynch (already very unlikely) and a correct vig shot n1 (also incredibly unlikely, but the two together is practically unheard of-when was the last time you saw that in a game?) followed AGAIN by a correct lynch on d2. Any scum team that manages that is either god damn awful or they played against the best town in existence.
A town worst case is not at all hard to imagine, given that a d1 mislynch is quite common and vig misfires are also quite common.
Even removing a vigi, the game is still not balanced correctly. The worst case is still really bad. mylo at d2 instead of lylo, still unacceptable.
Mafia scum thought 12p minis were too mafia favored because of the number of day 1 mislynches that mean town and mafia getting 3 lynches to win really isn't as fair as it sounds. Taking a whole cycle off an already mafia-favored setup is a really poor idea IMO.
e: I should have probably PMed you about it but when I read the OP and considered signing up I was pretty turned off by the setup :p
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
Would a 10p setup be better served by giving the town an extra cop or something so there are more claims D2? Or would it make more sense to find some way to make a 2-scum scumteam work with 10man?
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
if someone asked me the town-mafia split of a 10 player setup, I'd say 8-2 with an all-vanilla setup (to compensate for the extra townie)
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Day 1 lynches are worse than random and it's pretty easy to see why. Day 1 is the worst for town and the best for scum, statistically scum is going to mislynch the shit out of town a vast majority of the time on day 1. On day 1 town has no information-the game is about catchup. Mafia, on the other hand, know what all the alignments are and are under no particular suspicion of their own.
And this is exactly why i claimed. And found 1 scum 1 town scummy as hell - 5 town reads of which 4 were correct, 2 null because they did not post (which was my fault anyways).
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
Maybe that would make more sense. 10 players is hard to do ;_;
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I'd play this setup any day. I think it's one of the best setups i have played.
I dunno why people don't like hard games.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
just because you enjoyed it doesn't mean it's essentially correct
the fact you enjoy swimming against the tide is kinda irrelevant rayn
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On January 09 2014 06:54 Blazinghand wrote:
Would a 10p setup be better served by giving the town an extra cop or something so there are more claims D2? Or would it make more sense to find some way to make a 2-scum scumteam work with 10man?
No, I don't think so.
If you're dead-set on 10 players or whatever maybe you could do something weird like twist it such that D1 is a double lynch.
This forces people to be more active D1 and stuff because it has the effect of making it very important to control the lynch for both factions. In addition the KP is in control of the entire town/every player rather than in the hands of some random player that is given a gun by a PRG and some blue text in his role PM.
I don't really think throwing blues into a setup is a great way to balance it, particularly in situations like this where the worst-cases are clearly just imbalanced.
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
On January 09 2014 07:00 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2014 06:54 Blazinghand wrote:
Would a 10p setup be better served by giving the town an extra cop or something so there are more claims D2? Or would it make more sense to find some way to make a 2-scum scumteam work with 10man? No, I don't think so. If you're dead-set on 10 players or whatever maybe you could do something weird like twist it such that D1 is a double lynch. This forces people to be more active D1 and stuff because it has the effect of making it very important to control the lynch for both factions. In addition the KP is in control of the entire town/every player rather than in the hands of some random player that is given a gun by a PRG and some blue text in his role PM. I don't really think throwing blues into a setup is a great way to balance it, particularly in situations like this where the worst-cases are clearly just imbalanced.
I'm not particularly planning to run another 10-man setup, unless it's a sequel to this game. That's because Extractor Trick lets you have 10 drones instead of 9 so I wanted to make 10-man work. Maybe 8-2 mountainous might just be the way to go.
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The thing is that games smaller than 13p are really hard to balance because the lynch swings are integer swings and the game is balanced around that.
With 10p if one of the scum gets lynched he has to lynch an extra person to win the game over 9p. That's much harder than it sounds, particularly if one scum dies in the first or second cycle
I dumb ignore.
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I think there is a lot of randomness in what happens at night, and that has a huge effect on the outcome of the game. Hitting the vet n1, which wasn't even our fault really, completely boned us. And in any normal game we would have lost.
D2, 6v2 with 3 confirmed town. So out of 5 possible scum , you have 2 chances to lynch one. That is a really easy scenario for town.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On January 09 2014 07:08 wherebugsgo wrote:
The thing is that games smaller than 13p are really hard to balance because the lynch swings are integer swings and the game is balanced around that.
With 10p if one of the scum gets lynched he has to lynch an extra person to win the game over 9p. That's much harder than it sounds, particularly if one scum dies in the first or second cycle.
huh?
7-2, scum gets lynched, 7-1, nk 6-1
town gets lynched 5-1, nk 4-1
town gets lynched 3-1, nk 2-1
town gets lynched mafia wins, total = 1 mafia lynch and 3 town lynch
8-2, scum gets lynched, 8-1, nk 7-1
town gets lynched 6-1, nk 5-1
town gets lynched 4-1, nk 3-1
town gets lynched 2-1, nk 1-1 mafia wins, total = 1 mafia lynch and 3 town lynch
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Also the only town who correctly read alakaslam was coag.
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On January 09 2014 07:13 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2014 07:08 wherebugsgo wrote:
The thing is that games smaller than 13p are really hard to balance because the lynch swings are integer swings and the game is balanced around that.
With 10p if one of the scum gets lynched he has to lynch an extra person to win the game over 9p. That's much harder than it sounds, particularly if one scum dies in the first or second cycle. huh? 7-2, scum gets lynched, 7-1, nk 6-1 town gets lynched 5-1, nk 4-1 town gets lynched 3-1, nk 2-1 town gets lynched mafia wins, total = 1 mafia lynch and 3 town lynch 8-2, scum gets lynched, 8-1, nk 7-1 town gets lynched 6-1, nk 5-1 town gets lynched 4-1, nk 3-1 town gets lynched 2-1, nk 1-1 mafia wins, total = 1 mafia lynch and 3 town lynch
ah you're right, I think I miscounted somehow
e: although there is a no lynch option in the 10p case, if that's allowed, that allows town to extend the game by a cycle.
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Golden. You all learn from the wisdom of the Kushm4sta
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On January 09 2014 07:13 kushm4sta wrote:
Also the only town who correctly read alakaslam was coag.
So epic mein kushmasta
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EPT
