• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 22:32
CET 04:32
KST 12:32
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners11Intel X Team Liquid Seoul event: Showmatches and Meet the Pros10[ASL20] Finals Preview: Arrival13TL.net Map Contest #21: Voting12[ASL20] Ro4 Preview: Descent11
Community News
[TLMC] Fall/Winter 2025 Ladder Map Rotation8Weekly Cups (Nov 3-9): Clem Conquers in Canada4SC: Evo Complete - Ranked Ladder OPEN ALPHA8StarCraft, SC2, HotS, WC3, Returning to Blizzcon!45$5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship7
StarCraft 2
General
[TLMC] Fall/Winter 2025 Ladder Map Rotation Mech is the composition that needs teleportation t Weekly Cups (Nov 3-9): Clem Conquers in Canada Craziest Micro Moments Of All Time? SC: Evo Complete - Ranked Ladder OPEN ALPHA
Tourneys
Constellation Cup - Main Event - Stellar Fest Tenacious Turtle Tussle RSL S3 Round of 16 Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 499 Chilling Adaptation Mutation # 498 Wheel of Misfortune|Cradle of Death Mutation # 497 Battle Haredened Mutation # 496 Endless Infection
Brood War
General
FlaSh on: Biggest Problem With SnOw's Playstyle [ASL20] Ask the mapmakers — Drop your questions BW General Discussion Terran 1:35 12 Gas Optimization BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/
Tourneys
Small VOD Thread 2.0 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] RO32 Group D - Sunday 21:00 CET [BSL21] RO32 Group C - Saturday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Current Meta PvZ map balance How to stay on top of macro? Soma's 9 hatch build from ASL Game 2
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread EVE Corporation Should offensive tower rushing be viable in RTS games? Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread SPIRED by.ASL Mafia {211640}
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread The Games Industry And ATVI
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! Korean Music Discussion Series you have seen recently...
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023 TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
SC2 Client Relocalization [Change SC2 Language] Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Dyadica Gospel – a Pulp No…
Hildegard
Coffee x Performance in Espo…
TrAiDoS
Saturation point
Uldridge
DnB/metal remix FFO Mick Go…
ImbaTosS
Reality "theory" prov…
perfectspheres
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1672 users

PYP: League of Legends Mafia - Page 16

Forum Index > TL Mafia
Post a Reply
Prev 1 14 15 16 17 18 31 Next All
justanothertownie
Profile Joined July 2013
16320 Posts
December 11 2013 00:21 GMT
#6009
What I know:
Mig shot MZ N1 - MZ claimed to have taken no damage and Mig got back a HP value. MZ claimed to have used his clone. MZ had no reason to fear being shot as scum.
Mig tried to shoot MZ N2 and evidently nothing happened/ MZ took no damage. MZ had strong reasons to use his clone this night because he was under heavy suspicion.

I think it is absolutely possible MZ lied about using his clone N1.
justanothertownie
Profile Joined July 2013
16320 Posts
December 11 2013 00:25 GMT
#6012
One of the questions is - how likely is it that Mig got a hp value back if he hit a clone? Not very likely I think. More likely that Mig hit a clone N2 and got no HP value back.

Correct me if I am wrong.
justanothertownie
Profile Joined July 2013
16320 Posts
December 11 2013 00:28 GMT
#6014
On December 11 2013 09:24 LSB wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 11 2013 09:16 supersoft wrote:
On December 11 2013 09:14 supersoft wrote:
On December 11 2013 09:13 justanothertownie wrote:
On December 11 2013 09:10 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Why would mafia!MZ use mirror image on N1? Like did he assume town will hit him with something like 1000 KP?
He DID indeed use it, correct? as someone shot him.

How can you know he used it?


we know it. people claimed to have hit him and he took no damage. in fact mig tried to hit him.


at least he didnt claim it right away and then sticked with the story he didnt took any, which fits his role...
LSB is obviously correct: if he's scum, he could have lied about it all. However i don't see the benefit of lying about such a simple thing, since taking damage doesn't incriminate him. so he had no reason to hide that damage.


Simply having a clone in an unexpected situation (such as night 2, which could be another explanation for the crown thing, in addition to roleblocking) is always valuable. If I were a mafia Wukong I would probably try to claim I used my clone ability quickly so I could dodge a town vig who wouldn't have shot me if he thought I had my clones

The reason why I am so cautious is due to Mig focusing Meepak
Show nested quote +
On December 10 2013 12:33 Mig wrote:
Mz - n1 I got 825 back as my result. N-2 I got nothing back so my shot did not hit you. Either it was stopped or you were protected.

coag didnt have to post in the thread so seems he was just being a monkey.

Does anyone have the updated sign up list? Need to see who else is going to take damage.

I find it odd that Mig was unable to use his second action, and probably one of the strangest things that went on last night. If Mig hit meepak and returned an odd HP number, I think MZ would be under even more serious suspicion.


Anyways, it'd be best to wait for the day post for more information on this

Very good point.
justanothertownie
Profile Joined July 2013
16320 Posts
December 11 2013 00:30 GMT
#6017
On December 11 2013 09:28 raynpelikoneet wrote:
The problem is why the fuck would you ever use the clone as mafia unless you are < 500 hp or smth if you have like... any other ability? That's just dumb, unless you somehow know / assume town will hit you with like 1000 KP. Why does noone think about these things?

Because he had LEGIT REASONS to assume he would be hit with a big amount of KP N2 after that lynch.
justanothertownie
Profile Joined July 2013
16320 Posts
December 11 2013 00:33 GMT
#6020
On December 11 2013 09:31 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 11 2013 09:30 justanothertownie wrote:
On December 11 2013 09:28 raynpelikoneet wrote:
The problem is why the fuck would you ever use the clone as mafia unless you are < 500 hp or smth if you have like... any other ability? That's just dumb, unless you somehow know / assume town will hit you with like 1000 KP. Why does noone think about these things?

Because he had LEGIT REASONS to assume he would be hit with a big amount of KP N2 after that lynch.

That's bullshit. Town did not consolidate KP so there is no reason to assume anything like that.

That's the best you can come up with against my argument? Good. I feel confident about this now.
justanothertownie
Profile Joined July 2013
16320 Posts
December 11 2013 00:37 GMT
#6025
On December 11 2013 09:33 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 11 2013 09:25 justanothertownie wrote:
One of the questions is - how likely is it that Mig got a hp value back if he hit a clone? Not very likely I think. More likely that Mig hit a clone N2 and got no HP value back.

Correct me if I am wrong.

Ok why on earth would I lie about the clone N1?

You all have jumped to the conclusion that I lied N1 for some reason but really, what reason would I have to lie? I cloned N1 because I thought I'd be a decent scum shot. People were calling me town after the D1 but I didn't feel that I was likely to be protected. JAT you're making assumptions about how mig's role interacts with my role. The text of my role is this "All abilities that would have hit you hit your clone instead." It's in the OP, where in there does it say to you that Mig wouldn't get back a number.


Obviously it doesn't say that. But I think it is much more likely that you used your clone night 2 and he got nothing back while you lied night 1 than that your clone was hit night 1 while he got back a hp value and you somehow magically didn't get hit night 2.
justanothertownie
Profile Joined July 2013
16320 Posts
December 11 2013 00:39 GMT
#6028
To get people to think you are a townie afraid of being nightkilled? To get townies with KP to think you already used your protection?
justanothertownie
Profile Joined July 2013
16320 Posts
December 11 2013 00:41 GMT
#6029
Actually now that I think about it ignore the second part. First part is valid though.
justanothertownie
Profile Joined July 2013
16320 Posts
December 11 2013 00:47 GMT
#6033
On December 11 2013 09:44 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Even if we take "best case scenario":

Chezinu 900 damage - scum
Mig 50 damage - town
VisceraEyes 50 damage +200 - scum
raynpelikoneet 100 damage - town (ss)
Risen 325 damage - let's assume town but -100 in that case (ss)
Coagulation 50 damage - town
ticklishmusic 749 damage - scum

so town has 425 dmg + mig 150 dmg = 575 dmg.

I am pretty sure scum are at some level aware of how much KP town has.
Even if town focuses all damage on MZ, why would he use his clone? He does not even die.
Does town focus all dmg on MZ? Fuck no. This town is in no way capable of doing that even if MZ was confirmed scum rofl.

So again, why use clone on N2?

lol rayn. This defense is really stupid. When would he use it if not N2 after being the main counterwagon to the lynched townie with tons of suspicion on him? If his second ability is anything like the one he claimed that one is useless anyways. You are telling us scum has no problem taking unnecessary damage because "maybe it doesn't kill me flat out"? Besides I don't think scum was sure about the amount of damage town is able to do at night 2.
justanothertownie
Profile Joined July 2013
16320 Posts
December 11 2013 00:52 GMT
#6038
On December 11 2013 09:49 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 11 2013 09:47 justanothertownie wrote:
On December 11 2013 09:44 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Even if we take "best case scenario":

Chezinu 900 damage - scum
Mig 50 damage - town
VisceraEyes 50 damage +200 - scum
raynpelikoneet 100 damage - town (ss)
Risen 325 damage - let's assume town but -100 in that case (ss)
Coagulation 50 damage - town
ticklishmusic 749 damage - scum

so town has 425 dmg + mig 150 dmg = 575 dmg.

I am pretty sure scum are at some level aware of how much KP town has.
Even if town focuses all damage on MZ, why would he use his clone? He does not even die.
Does town focus all dmg on MZ? Fuck no. This town is in no way capable of doing that even if MZ was confirmed scum rofl.

So again, why use clone on N2?

lol rayn. This defense is really stupid. When would he use it if not N2 after being the main counterwagon to the lynched townie with tons of suspicion on him? If his second ability is anything like the one he claimed that one is useless anyways. You are telling us scum has no problem taking unnecessary damage because "maybe it doesn't kill me flat out"? Besides I don't think scum was sure about the amount of damage town is able to do at night 2.

When he has been hit so much he actually can reasonably assume town can kill him that night..

So instead he just takes the damage - no problem. Although he could prevent that? Yeah, no.
justanothertownie
Profile Joined July 2013
16320 Posts
December 11 2013 00:54 GMT
#6040
On December 11 2013 09:52 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 11 2013 09:47 justanothertownie wrote:
On December 11 2013 09:44 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Even if we take "best case scenario":

Chezinu 900 damage - scum
Mig 50 damage - town
VisceraEyes 50 damage +200 - scum
raynpelikoneet 100 damage - town (ss)
Risen 325 damage - let's assume town but -100 in that case (ss)
Coagulation 50 damage - town
ticklishmusic 749 damage - scum

so town has 425 dmg + mig 150 dmg = 575 dmg.

I am pretty sure scum are at some level aware of how much KP town has.
Even if town focuses all damage on MZ, why would he use his clone? He does not even die.
Does town focus all dmg on MZ? Fuck no. This town is in no way capable of doing that even if MZ was confirmed scum rofl.

So again, why use clone on N2?

lol rayn. This defense is really stupid. When would he use it if not N2 after being the main counterwagon to the lynched townie with tons of suspicion on him? If his second ability is anything like the one he claimed that one is useless anyways. You are telling us scum has no problem taking unnecessary damage because "maybe it doesn't kill me flat out"? Besides I don't think scum was sure about the amount of damage town is able to do at night 2.

JAT.

I can't use it two nights in a row. I used it N1. As much as I would have liked to use it last night I couldn't.

Can you not see where your logic flaw is? I used it N1, look at my use in context of that time. I have NO REASON to lie then. Then N2, when it would have been a better use from a scum perspective, I can't just magically use it, BECAUSE I ALREADY USED IT.

No, I can't see the logic flaw and there is no way of knowing you really used it N1.
justanothertownie
Profile Joined July 2013
16320 Posts
December 11 2013 00:58 GMT
#6048
On December 11 2013 09:57 raynpelikoneet wrote:
So JAT if you were scum!MZ you would have used your clone on N2 when whatever town does you know you can't die instead of something like N4-5 when town starts thinking "maybe we should use all KP-roles to kill MZ"?

Are you seriously suggesting that using the clone on N2 as mafia is a better option? How much damage did MZ block. 150, hooray, fucking best clone use ever!

He didn't know how much he would block so don't even bring that bullshit in the equation. And yes, why not use it? It is not one-shot.
justanothertownie
Profile Joined July 2013
16320 Posts
December 11 2013 00:59 GMT
#6052
On December 11 2013 09:57 Mig wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 11 2013 09:54 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Again, who the fuck cares if you have 900 or 700 or 600 hp as scum? When town starts consolidating all KP on one target then it might become a problem.


Rayne it isnt just about kp. His clone takes his spot for all abilities. If he was afraid of the invention or afraid of a check (not sure what a dt check would show on his clone) etc he could use the clone.


Thank you. The invention alone is enough reason to use the clone.
justanothertownie
Profile Joined July 2013
16320 Posts
December 11 2013 01:06 GMT
#6060
All abilities that would have hit you hit your clone instead.
I think that includes alignment checks.

Can someone tell me why we assume mkfuba was roleblocked because his ability didn't work? If he tried to use item + ability that might have been too much. Didn't people say you could only do one thing at a time?
justanothertownie
Profile Joined July 2013
16320 Posts
December 11 2013 01:08 GMT
#6064
On December 11 2013 10:06 supersoft wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 11 2013 09:55 Mig wrote:
Most peoples hidden ability is at the very least as strong if not stronger than their first. Your claimed second ability is insanely bad. A one shot 50 dmg nuke on 3 people. Really? Seems a bit fishy.


So far everyone had his ult as second abilitie.
I am not sure about Leblanc since I don't play her, but mimic is the ult right?
Khazix had a lot of abilities and somehow didn't fit in this pattern, too.

What's the name of your second abilitie?

I got my ult.

ziggs got his ult

I got my ult.
justanothertownie
Profile Joined July 2013
16320 Posts
December 11 2013 01:09 GMT
#6071
On December 11 2013 10:07 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 11 2013 10:06 justanothertownie wrote:
All abilities that would have hit you hit your clone instead.
I think that includes alignment checks.

Can someone tell me why we assume mkfuba was roleblocked because his ability didn't work? If he tried to use item + ability that might have been too much. Didn't people say you could only do one thing at a time?

Hey JAT, can you define what a clone is for me?

Irrelevant because nobody would have gotten a result apart from someone died of this check. It would have only killed your clone.
justanothertownie
Profile Joined July 2013
16320 Posts
December 11 2013 01:11 GMT
#6073
On December 11 2013 10:08 supersoft wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 11 2013 10:06 supersoft wrote:
On December 11 2013 09:55 Mig wrote:
Most peoples hidden ability is at the very least as strong if not stronger than their first. Your claimed second ability is insanely bad. A one shot 50 dmg nuke on 3 people. Really? Seems a bit fishy.


So far everyone had his ult as second abilitie.
I am not sure about Leblanc since I don't play her, but mimic is the ult right?
Khazix had a lot of abilities and somehow didn't fit in this pattern, too.

What's the name of your second abilitie?

I got my ult.

ziggs got his ult


Show nested quote +
On December 07 2013 11:47 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
On December 07 2013 11:44 supersoft wrote:
what's your hidden abilitie MZ?

It's nimbus strike, it deals 50 damage to three targets. I can use it once


thats not the ult right?

It is not even a very believable ability.
justanothertownie
Profile Joined July 2013
16320 Posts
December 11 2013 01:12 GMT
#6075
On December 11 2013 10:11 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 11 2013 10:09 ticklishmusic wrote:
no, we want to stick with the original plan of focusing one scum member i think...

yes, but i got a PM stating i couldnt ult and use my normal ability at once when i tried. i'm sure host would have told us if you can only use item or ability. besides, didnt whoever pop the ambulance radio use their ability as well?

So you are gonna let everyone just call MZ scum when you can have a free cop check on him and JL won't die to the KP anyways?
What's this bullshit? Why don't people think with their brain?

That's not a copcheck and mafia surely has some way to fuck with it.
justanothertownie
Profile Joined July 2013
16320 Posts
December 11 2013 01:14 GMT
#6079
On December 11 2013 10:12 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 11 2013 10:09 justanothertownie wrote:
On December 11 2013 10:07 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
On December 11 2013 10:06 justanothertownie wrote:
All abilities that would have hit you hit your clone instead.
I think that includes alignment checks.

Can someone tell me why we assume mkfuba was roleblocked because his ability didn't work? If he tried to use item + ability that might have been too much. Didn't people say you could only do one thing at a time?

Hey JAT, can you define what a clone is for me?

Irrelevant because nobody would have gotten a result apart from someone died of this check. It would have only killed your clone.

lolol

Not irrelevant at all, now you're making assumptions about my ability that I don't even know. Furthermore, I'd be confirmed scum if that had happened. How is that a win for me?

The item would have checked your clone and your clone would have taken the damage I think that is pretty reasonable to assume.
justanothertownie
Profile Joined July 2013
16320 Posts
December 11 2013 01:16 GMT
#6081
On December 11 2013 10:13 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 11 2013 10:11 justanothertownie wrote:
On December 11 2013 10:08 supersoft wrote:
On December 11 2013 10:06 supersoft wrote:
On December 11 2013 09:55 Mig wrote:
Most peoples hidden ability is at the very least as strong if not stronger than their first. Your claimed second ability is insanely bad. A one shot 50 dmg nuke on 3 people. Really? Seems a bit fishy.


So far everyone had his ult as second abilitie.
I am not sure about Leblanc since I don't play her, but mimic is the ult right?
Khazix had a lot of abilities and somehow didn't fit in this pattern, too.

What's the name of your second abilitie?

I got my ult.

ziggs got his ult


On December 07 2013 11:47 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
On December 07 2013 11:44 supersoft wrote:
what's your hidden abilitie MZ?

It's nimbus strike, it deals 50 damage to three targets. I can use it once


thats not the ult right?

It is not even a very believable ability.

Take it up with the hosts post game.
Why are you tunneling me? At this point you are looking at everything and saying it makes me scum which makes it hard for me to even take you seriously anymore.

Like I care if you take me seriously.
I don't back off because the defense rayn and you are delivering is really really bad and I was leaning scum on you before anyways.
Prev 1 14 15 16 17 18 31 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Tenacious Turtle Tussle
23:00
Biweekly #35
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RuFF_SC2 189
ProTech126
Nina 91
trigger 55
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 16826
Artosis 666
Shuttle 664
NaDa 56
Icarus 5
Dota 2
monkeys_forever121
NeuroSwarm70
LuMiX1
Counter-Strike
fl0m2317
Other Games
summit1g13741
shahzam590
JimRising 512
C9.Mang0222
ViBE155
Maynarde131
Liquid`Ken10
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick908
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Light_VIP 12
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• Azhi_Dahaki7
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Stunt327
Other Games
• Shiphtur161
Upcoming Events
The PondCast
6h 29m
RSL Revival
6h 29m
Solar vs Zoun
MaxPax vs Bunny
Kung Fu Cup
8h 29m
ByuN vs ShoWTimE
Classic vs Cure
Reynor vs TBD
WardiTV Korean Royale
8h 29m
PiGosaur Monday
21h 29m
RSL Revival
1d 6h
Classic vs Creator
Cure vs TriGGeR
Kung Fu Cup
1d 8h
herO vs TBD
CranKy Ducklings
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
herO vs Gerald
ByuN vs SHIN
Kung Fu Cup
2 days
[ Show More ]
IPSL
2 days
ZZZero vs rasowy
Napoleon vs KameZerg
BSL 21
2 days
Tarson vs Julia
Doodle vs OldBoy
eOnzErG vs WolFix
StRyKeR vs Aeternum
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
RSL Revival
3 days
Reynor vs sOs
Maru vs Ryung
Kung Fu Cup
3 days
WardiTV Korean Royale
3 days
BSL 21
3 days
JDConan vs Semih
Dragon vs Dienmax
Tech vs NewOcean
TerrOr vs Artosis
IPSL
3 days
Dewalt vs WolFix
eOnzErG vs Bonyth
Replay Cast
3 days
Wardi Open
4 days
Monday Night Weeklies
4 days
WardiTV Korean Royale
5 days
The PondCast
6 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-11-07
Stellar Fest: Constellation Cup
Eternal Conflict S1

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
SOOP Univ League 2025
YSL S2
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 3
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual

Upcoming

SLON Tour Season 2
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
HSC XXVIII
RSL Offline Finals
WardiTV 2025
META Madness #9
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026: Closed Qualifier
eXTREMESLAND 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.