EPTIt's funny
Ppl thought I could be scum for something so dumb, yet we're simultaneously considering storr as scum for the points I raised.
TL Mafia LXIII: Time to Die - Page 392
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Mocsta
Australia9388 Posts
It's funny Ppl thought I could be scum for something so dumb, yet we're simultaneously considering storr as scum for the points I raised. | ||
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LoneMeow
Finland1396 Posts
I was honestly quite surprised that most of my mason partners didn't really seem to try to poke and prod me to find out my alignment, only austinmcc gave the impression that he really was trying to figure me out. yamato77, sorry for not voting you. I was 100% going to switch, but then I saw this: "I think it's really obvious that I'm town." And after such an appeal to ego I just couldn't. On November 21 2013 01:23 raynpelikoneet wrote: 10 hours into D2 LoneMeow wonders why Sharrant was killed. 30 hours into D2 LoneMeow says he did not realize Sharrant was dead. 100% lying. LoneMeow is mafia, 100% guaranteed!! This "someone cannot possibly forget anything about the state of the game in 20 hours" logic actually made me so angry I almost broke the rules in retaliation. Please remember, not everyone spends all of their time with the game. (Although I did spend far more time than you'd guess from the amount I posted.) On December 08 2013 13:20 Pandain wrote: Coag/Risen/Slam made things a lot harder because we had to know whether they were being town useless or scum useless. You should've added me to the list, I think. | ||
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Adam4167
Australia1426 Posts
And this is something you should never build a case around because if this is the only piece of evidence... its a shit case -_- | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
Epic bus on Grackaroni, lol, didn't see that. ^^ | ||
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Mocsta
Australia9388 Posts
On December 08 2013 18:40 raynpelikoneet wrote: So i made a case on scum first thing in thread and get called scum for it. So usual. Epic bus on Grackaroni, lol, didn't see that. ^^ lol I didn't see it coming my way either its funny seeing scum making genuine cases on scum. and people calling the case bullshit lol I wanted grack lynched. not sure BC decided to join that party at first.but it worked in the end. | ||
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Adam4167
Australia1426 Posts
On December 08 2013 18:40 raynpelikoneet wrote: So i made a case on scum first thing in thread and get called scum for it. So usual. Epic bus on Grackaroni, lol, didn't see that. ^^ Not going to lie to you, we had a great laugh in our super secret host chat over how badly you were getting shut down for your case on holy, when it was actually pretty great. Probably only second to the town hanging Onegu when he'd pretty much solved the game. | ||
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Mocsta
Australia9388 Posts
that mayor campaign was bad lol | ||
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Adam4167
Australia1426 Posts
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Artanis[Xp]
Netherlands12968 Posts
On December 08 2013 13:28 Grackaroni wrote: You guys realize that entire Rayn lynch was townies? No scum wanted to risk touching that with a 10 foot pole. I think this is the turning point where town lost the game. | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
Blazinghand was funny. ^_^ | ||
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Holyflare
United Kingdom30775 Posts
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
EDIT: I never really got the case on Mocsta. I mean, i know the stuff was "scummy" but myabe i am just really terrible at reading him. I thought it could be entirely possible that he made a case like that on Storrzerg as town. It was his shot that was the only thing that gave him away for me, but he was kinda dead at that point.  | ||
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Adam4167
Australia1426 Posts
My postgame thoughts: I think the biggest problem plaguing TL towns right now is people have forgotten what makes someone scum, and therefore unable to recognise good cases. An extension problem of this is that they are unwilling to co-operate with someone who has posted a decent case, instead the ego flag begins to fly and they go off doing their own thing, trying to be the hero that saves town. This leads to a fractured town that is easily manipulated by the scum team. Learn to work as a team or continue this horrendous string of town losses. Yes, it really is that dire. When I started here in the end of 2011, it was a goddamn horrific time to roll scum. Towns were mobilizing at rampant speeds and a majority of games ended in landslides. VisceraEyes played in a mini around that time where a 3 man scum team was dunked in just two cycles through great lynches and an accurate vigi (I forget the name of the game). More recently was Marv smurfing as FiveTouch in a numbered TL game - where he was so spoiled for choice on D1 he was tossing up between lynching two scum as the newly appointed mayor. Town pulverized the scum team. What do both of these games have in common? Both of them had strong leaders (sandroba in the first and Marv in the second), but more importantly they had towns that we're willing to follow and trust and recognise that the cases these leaders we're presenting we're great cases. Even the most impressive leader is just a guy standing on his own talking to himself if no one is willing to follow him. Heres an example of a good case from this game: On November 17 2013 00:21 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Also, Mocsta is scum. His case on StorrZerg was awfully artificial to begin with and he hasn't brought it back up since returning to the thread. As soon as Spaghetticus sticks his neck out and someone questioned about him before, Mocsta sees his chance of casting suspicion on someone and trying to gain some town cred. 30 minutes after his giant case Mocsta already calls it bogus, clearly not having read it properly as he says: When Spaghetti clearly indicates he doesn't want to lynch VE, he just wants him to not become mayor, which would be evident if he actually read the case properly. Mocsta saw an opportunity to make someone look bad and took it. He wasn't interested in actually finding out his alignment. I wish to see him hang. As accurately pointed out - mocsta gave zero shits towards finding out sphagetticus alignment, just wanted to heave shit on him and make him look worse by twisting his words. Scum do this. Town are usually more inquisitive or indifferent. Heres another good case: On November 16 2013 01:25 raynpelikoneet wrote: Here is why Holyflare is SCUM and should be lynched: *also elect me as mayor* 1) I have never ever in this game called Risen town. Whoever says so does not make it true. There is nothing to rectify because i have not done so. Oats for example did ask me about it and i clarified why i said i will ignore Risen on D1. After that it has not been brought up. You on the other hand still bring up how I CALLED RISEN TOWN (false) and then rectified my statement (false). I ahve not changed my mind on anything so you are making shit up. 2) I clearly stated why your campaign is full of shit. Everything you said in the campaign had been brought up earlier in thread and there is no reason to write fancy non-alignment indicative words because the only thing that matter is that the mayor lynches scum. Period. Therefore the campaign is shit. Do you think BC/yamato/supersoft/VE/me/etc etc are all scum and don't really want to be mayor? Are we running for mayor? Why do you think we are not writing fancy posts about our awesomeness and plans on lynching scum as mayor? Because it does not make it anyone any more town and therefore those kinda campaigns are shit and mean absolutely nothing. So why did you write that post again? 3) Now you are calling me town for my reads. But that was not the reason you called me scum in the first place (lack of reads). How does my reads (oh they were also weak with no reasoning according to you) make me suddenly town when the reasons you called me scum for were something completely different? You can't even fucking know if i am right or wrong in my reads if you are town. So it makes no sense. You are scum and making shit up. This ones a bit wordy (I expect nothing else from rayn ^.^) and could be condensed a little bit, but it does a good job of showing why Holyfire isn't playing like a townie would. His evolution of his read on Rayn was unnatural and fabricated, hence scum. Neither of these cases gathered any steam. Go back and read Ver's analysis on TL Mafia XXX, I don't care if you've played 30 games here, go read it again. Its a staple guide on this forum for a reason. As I mentioned in the obs thread, this town had 9 lynches and only managed to hit two scum. Relearn what makes someone scum and more importantly what makes a good case, stow the ego and start working together! Associative tells. When I started here Associative tells we're tentative at best. Id upgrade them now to 'use with extreme caution' due to scum teams adapting to them being used and bussing that's occurring lately. Anyone who went diving into BC's filter after his flip probably left more confused and unsure of the game than they did before entering. A more sensible course of action is to look at how everyone else was interacting with him, earlier in the game, the better. Yes that means filtering 29 other people. Suck it up, winning as town involves hard work. Especially useless is anything posted by a scum on the day he dies, when it was reasonably apparent he was going to die the night before. It is ALL garbage. Toxic garbage with radiation spewing out of it. He's intentionally weaved half truths in-between layers of shit so that it'll melt your damn brains, keeping you interested when something is occasionally right, but leading you so astray since most of it is wrong. Associative tells should never be the crux of your case. Some things I consider to be acceptable things to build a case around: -This guys thought process does not line up with how I expect a townies to -This guys read does not seem to evolve naturally (Also known as this guys logic is fucking whack) -This guys scum hunting has been non-existent or lazy Notice that none of these things are complete slam dunk 'ZOMG SCUM TELLZ', because as we know BH, scum tells don't exist. Townies can poorly explain themselves and may trigger your alarms to one of these things (townies make good cases on townies all the time), but when the case is presented, they may have a logical response as to why they're saying or doing what they're doing, giving you the chance to re-evaluate your read. Alternatively if their response is shit, then you've probably bagged a scum. I saw a couple people using basic logical fallacies this game. One was 'Scum always like to spread out their votes'. This is taking a few instances of something occurring and extrapolating it to a universal claim. It is true, scum tend to spread their votes out, but it will not always be the case. In this specific case a player was claiming that at least one scum player must have been voting Yamato on D1. It is possible that a scum player was voting yamato, but it is also likely that they avoided him like the plague since they intended (and did!) to shoot him night 1. Giving him any votes in such a close race could have put a vest on a player they wanted dead ASAP. Find better reasons to call the people you're looking into scum, this isn't a good one. The mason chats this game we're a debacle for town. On the whole, townies we're far too trusting of their mason partners, outing their roles, outing previous partners mason roles, telling their partners of their night actions. On the contrary, the scum mason brigade we're pretty well on the money, milking their partners for roles, reads and manipulating them well. Townies, keep your partner on a need to know basis, extract reads from them in detail. If they are not willing to do this in a private forum, then something is not quite right. Do not be afraid to call your mason partner scum, tell him his reads are faked and make him write paragraphs to really get a feel for why he thinks what he thinks. This is exceptionally hard to do as scum. Learn to fight a fucking lynch. Not so long ago, it was obvious who was going to flip scum because they'd put up a little bit of fight, then go into ultra lurk mode so as to not out their teammates once it was obvious they were screwed. Nowadays, we seem to have townies buckling as soon as they get a single vote on them, going mostly afk or just refusing to post. More than half the players in this game are very capable of seeing the townie in you if you are indeed townie and you start fighting the lynch the best way you know how - looking for scum and pushing your cases. Go read my filter in 'This town isn't big enough for both of us' if you're not quite sure what I'm getting at. I went cowboy, got myself in a bit of trouble, dug deep, started pushing my cases and reads, eventually the town came around, saw the townie within and killed the other guy instead. You OWE it to your teammates to not be the other guy if you are town. If every townie makes themselves unlynchable, then the game is already won, by default. How not to defend yourself from a lynch. Martyring. Next game I host I will be filled with 'martyr vigis'. Not the 'I shoot someone after I die' that some of you may have played with before, ohhhhhhh no. Its going to be the 'if you martyr in your posts then you get day vig'd' kind of vigi. Yes it really is that SHIT and you deserve to be shot for it. The size of threads these days is becoming ridiculous. This topic has been beaten to death. I am not going to single you out. Stop posting every thought that you parse through your brains. Yes everyone will view you as townie for it, but it will reach a tipping point where people ignore your posts, even knowing you are town. You've effectively lost your power when this happens - Scum are going to ignore you when you are right, town are going to ignore you all the time. The knock-on effect is that you are making your filter unreadable. Someone who is not quite sure on you is now less willing to do the work and open your filter. Someone who wants to use something you said to strengthen one of their cases is less likely to do so when they have to fish through 35 pages of garbage to find what they're looking for. Newer players and low volume posters are going to be less likely to start contributing because they feel drowned out or completely ignored. For the first 3 cycles of this game we had about 8-10 players posting HUGE volume, and 20 or so players posting close to nothing because they were being drowned out. If you're throwing a fit in the obs chat about 'those fucking lurkers ruined the game MERRR!!!", stop and ask yourself if you were part of the problem. This game we had a player softclaim vigi to make another player, which he had a town read on, stop posting so damn much. That's some serious shit right there. I write 90% of my posts in mafia in a word document first. I trim for excess words, make it as concise and as direct as I can. Then I ask myself "Does this post have a point, will that point be conveyed, will it advance my goals?" If the answer isn't an immediate yes, its a god damn no and delete the fucking post!~ That's about it from me. Oh, and don't try and game the setup. Thoughts like 'lets lynch into all the masons' or '50% of the masons must be scum' is shit. and lazy. Analyze the player, not the setup. Thanks everyone for playing. I'm glad most of you avoided mod-kills. I hope you can all take something away from this game. Congratulations to the winners. | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43269 Posts
For example if there is a person in the game whose sole contribution on the day phase is "i wonder why Sharrant died" and after that he forgets Sharrant died i refuse to believe that person's win condition says get rid of mafia. | ||
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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
On November 25 2013 08:39 Hopeless1der wrote: I did see your response but I'm still on my phone. I'll get around to tunnelling you don't worry. Right after I figure out how to save risen. On November 25 2013 08:48 Hopeless1der wrote: Everyone voting Risen, if you're town this is unacceptable because SS has proven himself to be completely untrustworthy. BC has proven himself capable of fooling the guy you are sheeping. You can't all be scum, so what gives? On November 25 2013 12:24 Hopeless1der wrote: I dont think he's town, this lynch just feels shitty is all. Going to bed now so I'll try to make something happen in the morning. There is no way someone is town after this sequence of posts. Then on the following day he votes risen without any justification at all. | ||
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LoneMeow
Finland1396 Posts
On December 08 2013 21:06 raynpelikoneet wrote: I promise to cut down my posting for at least 50% if other people start playing these games. For example if there is a person in the game whose sole contribution on the day phase is "i wonder why Sharrant died" and after that he forgets Sharrant died i refuse to believe that person's win condition says get rid of mafia. It's not like I read my own filter every time I come back to the game. And not like I remember what exactly I was thinking when I come back to the game after 20 hours away from it. You're free to request a ban for playing against my wincon though, I'm fine with letting someone who wasn't in the game decide since they can probably be objective about it. To elaborate, it's incredibly frustrating when people complain about "not participating" and all that, when I was trying my best. It's not like I want to be crap at this, I simply don't know how to play better. And saying "you play against your wincon" and "you are shit" does not exactly help me get better. | ||
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Adam4167
Australia1426 Posts
On December 08 2013 21:06 syllogism wrote: There is no way someone is town after this sequence of posts. Then on the following day he votes risen without any justification at all. And there you go. A simple case, a single line. It shows a clear disconnect in logical thought processes in just a 4 hour period where Hopeless says 'Right after I figure out how to save Risen' to 'I don't think hes town, its just a shitty lynch'. Do you frequently try to derail lynches on someone you have a 'not town' or 'null' read on? Does any townie do this, ever? Nope. Then to vote him the next day without reason should have moved him into the 'kill with fire' category. I'd LOVE to have seen his response to this case if someone had picked up on it at the time. | ||
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Adam4167
Australia1426 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Not even joking -_- | ||
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Holyflare
United Kingdom30775 Posts
On December 08 2013 21:43 Adam4167 wrote: I'll leave advice for the scum team to someone who's survived past day 1 as scum before. + Show Spoiler + Not even joking -_- huuuh? | ||
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Mocsta
Australia9388 Posts
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