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Witchcraft Mini Mafia II - Page 31

Forum Index > TL Mafia
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EchelonTee
Profile Joined February 2011
United States5245 Posts
November 05 2013 18:37 GMT
#601
On November 05 2013 05:01 Sn0_Man wrote:
OO's awful paranoid or something.

Though rayn was being oblivious and threatening votes for bad reasons. OO still overreacted pretty hard.

Thoughts?

This was your post.

On November 05 2013 04:56 ObviousOne wrote:
Rayn that's a pretty shit thing to get hung up about considering it has zero bearing on this game at all, only has anything at all to do with my ability to read WoS as scum.

I think you were referencing this. OO did not sound paranoid or afraid at all.

That's why your post was so weird.
aka "neophyte". learn lots. dont judge. laugh for no reason. be nice. seek happiness. -D[9]
thrawn2112
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States6918 Posts
November 05 2013 18:38 GMT
#602
On November 06 2013 03:31 EchelonTee wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 06 2013 02:36 Sn0_Man wrote:
Last game I gave him a townread for something and he said stuff like "don't give me a townread for that" and shit. Maybe not full martyr but the mindset is the same. Its "Would scum throw away "towncred" like this? Would scum call attention to themselves like this? Of course not". Its how Onegu plays.

I'll admit that I often get the same vibes from his townplay and in general I have real difficulty reading Onegu, but I'd argue that that makes him a serious liability to have moving into the late game. And he hasn't done anything to make me think he's town.

I mean, if he IS town, then he wants to die so we should oblige him and solve that questionmark. If he is scum, then we lynch scum. It feels like the right move right now.

Besides what townie ever self votes except in frustration? This wasn't frustration it was "look at me I'm so cooperative and want town to win" yeah right.

I have seen scum self-martyr (that nuke game? forgot the name, where gonzaw owned VE and BH with nukes), I think one of my scum-mates in that game was super fucking scummy but people said "oh mafia wouldn't completely give up" or something like that.

However I don't see a parallel with "don't give me towncred" and "kill me guys, I'm better dead". Those two things seem completely different in terms of scale.

I just don't get why he would give up though. He only had like 2 votes on him when he self-voted. It's just so weird.

.................................now that I think about it more, a scum Onegu that is legitimately in the hospital and has no time to vote; parking the vote on self seems like a decent way to avoid making up a case. but why wouldnt he just random vote?


Yes, scum can martyr but don't town do it way more often? another reason I have to believe Onegu is because of the way he spilled all his reads right before his vote.
"People think they know all these things about other people, and if you ask them why they think they know that, it'd be hard for them to be convincing." ES
Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
November 05 2013 18:38 GMT
#603
oh u were talking to hzflank not OO w/e
On November 05 2013 08:51 thrawn2112 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 05 2013 08:49 hzflank wrote:
On November 05 2013 08:43 thrawn2112 wrote:
Hey hzflank, what do you think about sn0's play so far? Disregard the specifics of who said what or who accused who of what, I want you to casually read his filter and describe to me his tone, attitude, etc.


When I read him earlier, his tone was very fun. His attitude was casual, dare I say he seemed to be enjoying the game. At times you might think he has a idgaf attitude, but then he makes a few posts and you reseal that he is in fact invested in the current game.


This is almost exactly what I've been thinking. Don't all of these things hint of green and not red? How do you reconcile his general townie behavior with the things you think he's done that are scummy?

Page 17 shortly after OO loses it and flank feels the need to sheep OO.
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
EchelonTee
Profile Joined February 2011
United States5245 Posts
November 05 2013 18:40 GMT
#604
Where's the sheeping? Where's this "easy wagon" on sn0? The dude only ever has had 2 votes!!!
aka "neophyte". learn lots. dont judge. laugh for no reason. be nice. seek happiness. -D[9]
Cephiro
Profile Joined May 2011
Finland1934 Posts
November 05 2013 18:41 GMT
#605
Aiight. I skimmed through the new posts, but going to read them with a proper thought now. One idea that I thought of is what I wanted to share though.


10 / 3
9 / 3
8 / 2
7 / 2
6 / 1
5 / 1
4 / 0
3 / 0
2 / 0

Amount of Town / Amount of Blues elected.

Basically, I'm thinking we should no-lynch today. That way we are able to have a 3-blue election again tomorrow, providing none of today's get sniped. It also leaves us one more town player for scum to target during the night, making them a little less likely to hit blues. This will basically give us a +1 blue per cycle until snipe or mislynch. At the moment I'm considering it as a fairly good option, but for today only. (We're certainly not no-lynching multiple times as it's our only way of killing scum.) With everyone seemingly all over the place, swinging from target to target, as much as I'd like to believe I can't see us lynching scum today. No-lynch is better than mislynch.

1) We get +1 blue nominated per cycle until snipe or mislynch
2) Scum has 1 more target to choose who to kill and/or try to snipe, making it a little more hard for them to decide.
3) We will have more information to get a proper, scum lynch on D2 to start it off with.

These benefits are made under the assumption that we are mislynching today, which unfortunately looks extremely likely to happen in my eyes. Give these points a thought.
EchelonTee
Profile Joined February 2011
United States5245 Posts
November 05 2013 18:41 GMT
#606
On November 06 2013 03:38 thrawn2112 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 06 2013 03:31 EchelonTee wrote:
On November 06 2013 02:36 Sn0_Man wrote:
Last game I gave him a townread for something and he said stuff like "don't give me a townread for that" and shit. Maybe not full martyr but the mindset is the same. Its "Would scum throw away "towncred" like this? Would scum call attention to themselves like this? Of course not". Its how Onegu plays.

I'll admit that I often get the same vibes from his townplay and in general I have real difficulty reading Onegu, but I'd argue that that makes him a serious liability to have moving into the late game. And he hasn't done anything to make me think he's town.

I mean, if he IS town, then he wants to die so we should oblige him and solve that questionmark. If he is scum, then we lynch scum. It feels like the right move right now.

Besides what townie ever self votes except in frustration? This wasn't frustration it was "look at me I'm so cooperative and want town to win" yeah right.

I have seen scum self-martyr (that nuke game? forgot the name, where gonzaw owned VE and BH with nukes), I think one of my scum-mates in that game was super fucking scummy but people said "oh mafia wouldn't completely give up" or something like that.

However I don't see a parallel with "don't give me towncred" and "kill me guys, I'm better dead". Those two things seem completely different in terms of scale.

I just don't get why he would give up though. He only had like 2 votes on him when he self-voted. It's just so weird.

.................................now that I think about it more, a scum Onegu that is legitimately in the hospital and has no time to vote; parking the vote on self seems like a decent way to avoid making up a case. but why wouldnt he just random vote?


Yes, scum can martyr but don't town do it way more often? another reason I have to believe Onegu is because of the way he spilled all his reads right before his vote.
That's a good fucking point. If he was self-voting to get out of doing shit I imagine he would've just self-voted and said "deuces". Onegu isn't getting lynched today get off of him people.
aka "neophyte". learn lots. dont judge. laugh for no reason. be nice. seek happiness. -D[9]
thrawn2112
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States6918 Posts
November 05 2013 18:42 GMT
#607
ceph buddy you're scaring me
"People think they know all these things about other people, and if you ask them why they think they know that, it'd be hard for them to be convincing." ES
Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
November 05 2013 18:44 GMT
#608
Of interest, Onegu is extremely comfortable with bussing and being bussed (you would know ET). But since its majority lynch its fairly obvious there is enough opposition to his lynch right now.

##Unvote
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
EchelonTee
Profile Joined February 2011
United States5245 Posts
November 05 2013 18:46 GMT
#609
Well its nice that you're

1) around
2) talking to people

That's not necessarily alignment indicative but it would be really, really easy to just lurk as scum

I guess we're not killing sn0 today

still mulling over cephiro's post. I have it firmly ingrained in my mind that no-lynches are bad, still thinking about it though
aka "neophyte". learn lots. dont judge. laugh for no reason. be nice. seek happiness. -D[9]
Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
November 05 2013 18:49 GMT
#610
I don't like a no-lynch today.

1) I need to see who votes for what wagon when people flip. Thats integral to how I find scum.
2) I find it hard to believe that scum won't manage to get 1 blue vig off before we get to elect blues again anyway, in which case we still only get 2.
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
November 05 2013 18:51 GMT
#611
PS of course we aren't lynching me I've
A) never rolled scum
B) only been mislynched once. At lylo. Due to rayn being rayn and onegu being fucking op as scum.

Day 1s are always awful for me tho since how the hell should I know who scum is?
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
EchelonTee
Profile Joined February 2011
United States5245 Posts
November 05 2013 18:51 GMT
#612
pros to no lynch -

potential (not-guaranteed) extra day of three blues
scum has 1 extra target

cons -

less information than a lynch (a lynch gives more information than a no-lynch, self-explanatory)
0 chance of killing scum

I don't think we will have more direction tomorrow unless we get extremely lucky dodging bullets and making good actions. I don't think a no-lynch is a good idea.

I could get on board with hzflank. reading him through
aka "neophyte". learn lots. dont judge. laugh for no reason. be nice. seek happiness. -D[9]
thrawn2112
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States6918 Posts
November 05 2013 18:52 GMT
#613
On November 06 2013 03:46 EchelonTee wrote:
I guess we're not killing sn0 today

still mulling over cephiro's post. I have it firmly ingrained in my mind that no-lynches are bad, still thinking about it though


I'm not completely over it, I just need to be convinced.

Also I don't really think ceph is mafia
"People think they know all these things about other people, and if you ask them why they think they know that, it'd be hard for them to be convincing." ES
thrawn2112
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States6918 Posts
November 05 2013 18:54 GMT
#614
On November 06 2013 03:51 Sn0_Man wrote:
PS of course we aren't lynching me I've
A) never rolled scum


is this true? if so there's probably no way I'm lynching sn0 today... lol sorry ET
"People think they know all these things about other people, and if you ask them why they think they know that, it'd be hard for them to be convincing." ES
Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
November 05 2013 18:56 GMT
#615
I've replaced into a newbie onto a scumteam that had mass scumclaimed d1 to unsuccessfully stop a d1 scum lynch :D

I was also literally the only person to post in teh scum qt post sub-in I think.
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
November 05 2013 18:59 GMT
#616
Holy shit we r all high templars :O

Silly cephiro get ur disgusting devourer pic off our page.
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
Ange777
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Germany1164 Posts
November 05 2013 19:00 GMT
#617
Vote Count!


Vanesco (0): Umasi, WaveofShadow
hzflank (2): Onegu, thrawn2112, WaveofShadow
Umasi (1): Vanesco, hzflank
WaveofShadow (1): gumshoe, Cephiro
Onegu (2): WaveofShadow, gumshoe, Onegu, Sn0_Man
gumshoe (0): ObviousOne, raynpelikoneet
raynpelikoneet (0): Vanesco, thrawn2112
Sn0_Man (1): ObviousOne, hzflank
EchelonTee (2): Sylencia, raynpelikoneet
thrawn2112 (1): EchelonTee, Vanesco

Not Voting (3): Umasi, EchelonTee, Sn0_Man

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch. Currently no-one is set to be lynched!



It is now Day 1. This Day ends in at Tuesday, Nov 05 10:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00) aka 22:00 GMT (+00:00).

Make sure to get your THREE witchcraft votes in to Ange777 and Blazinghand by that time.

♥ Sen - 台灣之光 ♥
Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
November 05 2013 19:01 GMT
#618
I coulda sworn rayn unvoted
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
Umasi
Profile Joined October 2012
United States1399 Posts
November 05 2013 19:04 GMT
#619
On November 05 2013 21:23 raynpelikoneet wrote:
##Unvote:
##Vote: EchelonTee


There are a couple of huge problems in ET's posts and actions this game.
This is his reasoning for thrawn's rayn vote originally:
Show nested quote +
Thrawn votes rayn but never really explains why. Does not quote rayn or outline his reasoning. Yet he wants to "fucking lynch him". This does not feel like a real scum read to me.

There is a very clear reasoning in thrawn's post yet ET "fails to see it". It is a pressure vote and anyone who pays even a little attention should know it, at least when thrawn unvotes me immediately when i start contributing. He also brings up this quote from Desert:
Show nested quote +
A brief filter of analysis of Thrawn's previous two games, Desert Mini and British Empire Mini corroborate my views. Posts like these outline clear reasons why Thrawn views there's players as scum and show an intent to scumhunt. In this game, he has done a lot of lists and lightly push rayn for a lack of activity. I think there is a stark contrast.

There are two problems with the bolded part.
(1) The post in question is from day 3. There are over 100 pages of content in that game at that point. Thrawn is scum because he fails to make analysis like in Desert 7 irl-days into the game compared to this game's 24 hours? Does that sound a legit reason? I can tell you it is a ridiculous reason.
(2) In the end of the bolded part EchelonTee clearly implies he in fact knew why thrawn voted for me, something he brought up in the very same post of his. So the earlier reason for thrawn being scum for voting me "with no real reasoning" is a lie and the wording he uses earlier is designed to make thrawn look worse than it is. It is scum motivated act, i use it a lot when i am scum - specific wording that makes the target look much worse than they actually are and what is said can be interpreted in many ways so i already have an out in the first place. There is absolutely no reason to do that as town.

When he is being questioned more about his reasoning behind thrawn's vote on me he says this:
Show nested quote +
I did not do intensive meta research. I skimmed your posts, but did not skim rayn's posts. If I missed some huge, obvious interaction that shows that you must be town and rayn believes so, I could back off for now.

I can tell you this is a straight out lie. I know he has been in thrawn's filter in Desert game, but i can also tell you he has done absolutely nothing in that filter, "skimmed" is a very strong word. Because of the following:
- If you enter thrawn's filter from Desert mini mafia, this is the first post in his filter. I will make it so big everyone understands:
Show nested quote +
On September 03 2013 11:15 thrawn2112 wrote:
I forgot my password for the smurf account, tried to password reset, then forgot the email account associated with it.



Oh well

If you go into someone's filter and miss what the first post there says there is no way you have done anything at all in that filter. If you are unable to pay that little attention i do not believe you have done anything there.

thrawn smurfed in that game and forgot his pasword on somewhere during N2 or D3. If EchelonTee had read the first post in thrawn's filter, he would know he actually needs to read this filter instead:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=426387&user=Tutankoopa
Now if you actually skim through this filter you will notice that that probably 40% of thrawn's posts are about me. There is a huge massive interaction with me and thrawn during the game. I don't even know what ET means with saying "If I missed some huge, obvious interaction that shows that you must be town and rayn believes so.." because noone is talking thrawn being town here, ET is acting like someone needs to prove thrawn is town, otherwise he is scum which is not how this game works. It is ET's job to prove someone is scum, which he is flipping upside down here.

This is what EchelonTee says about my case on gumshoe:
Show nested quote +
On November 05 2013 17:48 EchelonTee wrote:
Posts like these show effort and contribution to me, even if I don't really agree with the content. The second post in particular is one that I don't see a scum gumshoe doing. Thrawn has not contributed as much as these posts of gumshoe's.

This is exactly why i am arguing for gumshoe being scum in my case. The first post ET quotes is a fake case on WoS, therefore it is not a contribution as i have pointed out. Therefore it does not matter if it's effort because in any case regardless of gumshoe's affiliation it is faked effort as i have already pointed out. The second post also does not contribute anything. I already quoted what that post in fact says and nobody has proven me wrong. ET does not prove me wrong, he just says those posts contribute, while i am asking him especially how they do contribute. This is not an answer to my question, this is misrepresenting my argument.




TLRD;
(1) EchelonTee's reasoning for thrawn being scum changes half-way through D1 for some parts of his argument. When townies do this they add new content to their case. EchelonTee, instead of doing this, changes his reasoning for old content to fit his case better. There is no town motivation for doing so.
(2) EchelonTee does "skim through player's filter from another game" without actually even skimming through it. There is no town motivation to go into other player's filter from another game and then do nothing there.
[u](3) EchelonTee when being called out for his case says "prove to me he is town". This is not how the game works and everyone should know this. This is a justification to sit on his vote when he can't actually prove (as it seems) thrawn is scum because nobody can possibly prove thrawn is town at this stage of the game.
(4) EchelonTee is not paying attention and making up stuff on the fly. This has been proven by many things. His filter skim, his change of reasoning, his answer to my gumshoe case, him asking people's opinions on his case on thrawn and when people give them he misses it.

None of those things i can see a townie doing in any situation.


I dig it.
##vote echelontee
I'm not sure I like the placeholder votes on hzflank. I'll swap to him for majority, but his pressure on me has felt genuine.
Also, I think Onegu is town.
"Sir, we finally have enough corpses to serve as a ramp for your horse." "THEN LET THE REAPING BEGIN!!"
thrawn2112
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States6918 Posts
November 05 2013 19:05 GMT
#620
bro u scum?
"People think they know all these things about other people, and if you ask them why they think they know that, it'd be hard for them to be convincing." ES
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