EPTWitchcraft Mini Mafia II - Page 29
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EchelonTee
United States5256 Posts
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thrawn2112
United States6918 Posts
On November 05 2013 17:52 EchelonTee wrote: You said you would focus on them, but I don't see any focus on you. I did not do intensive meta research. I skimmed your posts, but did not skim rayn's posts. If I missed some huge, obvious interaction that shows that you must be town and rayn believes so, I could back off for now. There might've been better examples but I'm not going to spend hours poring over your meta. I picked the first example I saw that looked like a real case. I don't see you making any real cases and your excuse is that you're bored. I don't know the point of trying harder if it's clear that you don't really care and are too bored to play. If you think I am scum, please state so instead of lightly insinuating it. I'd like to know who you want to lynch, if you're not too bored to say something of use. Saying I will focus on someone does not mean I will write reports of all my findings. It only means as much as that I'm most interested in reading their upcoming posts, more than people that were on the list. It's the very last game rayn and I played together which is desert mini. I would not be surprised if he had triple-digit # of posts about me before D2 had finished. And yeah it sucks but you're gonna have to wait even longer to know who I want to lynch becuase up till a few posts ago it was starting to become you, but now I feel like you're genuinely frustrated and maybe town so I'm gonna look elsewhere first | ||
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EchelonTee
United States5256 Posts
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EchelonTee
United States5256 Posts
On November 05 2013 17:11 WaveofShadow wrote: I still don't think I'd go Sn0 today (though if he acts the same way tomorrow as he does today he's dead tomorrow) and I feel better about Umasi than I did so maybe it is thrawn. Why not Sn0 today? | ||
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EchelonTee
United States5256 Posts
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EchelonTee
United States5256 Posts
Vanesco: Onegu: Gumshoe: Sn0: WaveofShadow: EchelonTee: Sylencia hzflank: Rayn: Umasi: Thrawn: EchelonTee No vote (5): Sn0, Vanesco, WaveofShadow, Thrawn, Umasi | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43270 Posts
##Vote: EchelonTee There are a couple of huge problems in ET's posts and actions this game. This is his reasoning for thrawn's rayn vote originally: Thrawn votes rayn but never really explains why. Does not quote rayn or outline his reasoning. Yet he wants to "fucking lynch him". This does not feel like a real scum read to me. There is a very clear reasoning in thrawn's post yet ET "fails to see it". It is a pressure vote and anyone who pays even a little attention should know it, at least when thrawn unvotes me immediately when i start contributing. He also brings up this quote from Desert: A brief filter of analysis of Thrawn's previous two games, Desert Mini and British Empire Mini corroborate my views. Posts like these outline clear reasons why Thrawn views there's players as scum and show an intent to scumhunt. In this game, he has done a lot of lists and lightly push rayn for a lack of activity. I think there is a stark contrast. There are two problems with the bolded part. (1) The post in question is from day 3. There are over 100 pages of content in that game at that point. Thrawn is scum because he fails to make analysis like in Desert 7 irl-days into the game compared to this game's 24 hours? Does that sound a legit reason? I can tell you it is a ridiculous reason. (2) In the end of the bolded part EchelonTee clearly implies he in fact knew why thrawn voted for me, something he brought up in the very same post of his. So the earlier reason for thrawn being scum for voting me "with no real reasoning" is a lie and the wording he uses earlier is designed to make thrawn look worse than it is. It is scum motivated act, i use it a lot when i am scum - specific wording that makes the target look much worse than they actually are and what is said can be interpreted in many ways so i already have an out in the first place. There is absolutely no reason to do that as town. When he is being questioned more about his reasoning behind thrawn's vote on me he says this: I did not do intensive meta research. I skimmed your posts, but did not skim rayn's posts. If I missed some huge, obvious interaction that shows that you must be town and rayn believes so, I could back off for now. I can tell you this is a straight out lie. I know he has been in thrawn's filter in Desert game, but i can also tell you he has done absolutely nothing in that filter, "skimmed" is a very strong word. Because of the following: - If you enter thrawn's filter from Desert mini mafia, this is the first post in his filter. I will make it so big everyone understands: On September 03 2013 11:15 thrawn2112 wrote: I forgot my password for the smurf account, tried to password reset, then forgot the email account associated with it.  Oh well If you go into someone's filter and miss what the first post there says there is no way you have done anything at all in that filter. If you are unable to pay that little attention i do not believe you have done anything there. thrawn smurfed in that game and forgot his pasword on somewhere during N2 or D3. If EchelonTee had read the first post in thrawn's filter, he would know he actually needs to read this filter instead: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=426387&user=Tutankoopa Now if you actually skim through this filter you will notice that that probably 40% of thrawn's posts are about me. There is a huge massive interaction with me and thrawn during the game. I don't even know what ET means with saying "If I missed some huge, obvious interaction that shows that you must be town and rayn believes so.." because noone is talking thrawn being town here, ET is acting like someone needs to prove thrawn is town, otherwise he is scum which is not how this game works. It is ET's job to prove someone is scum, which he is flipping upside down here. This is what EchelonTee says about my case on gumshoe: On November 05 2013 17:48 EchelonTee wrote: Posts like these show effort and contribution to me, even if I don't really agree with the content. The second post in particular is one that I don't see a scum gumshoe doing. Thrawn has not contributed as much as these posts of gumshoe's. This is exactly why i am arguing for gumshoe being scum in my case. The first post ET quotes is a fake case on WoS, therefore it is not a contribution as i have pointed out. Therefore it does not matter if it's effort because in any case regardless of gumshoe's affiliation it is faked effort as i have already pointed out. The second post also does not contribute anything. I already quoted what that post in fact says and nobody has proven me wrong. ET does not prove me wrong, he just says those posts contribute, while i am asking him especially how they do contribute. This is not an answer to my question, this is misrepresenting my argument. TLRD; (1) EchelonTee's reasoning for thrawn being scum changes half-way through D1 for some parts of his argument. When townies do this they add new content to their case. EchelonTee, instead of doing this, changes his reasoning for old content to fit his case better. There is no town motivation for doing so. (2) EchelonTee does "skim through player's filter from another game" without actually even skimming through it. There is no town motivation to go into other player's filter from another game and then do nothing there. [u](3) EchelonTee when being called out for his case says "prove to me he is town". This is not how the game works and everyone should know this. This is a justification to sit on his vote when he can't actually prove (as it seems) thrawn is scum because nobody can possibly prove thrawn is town at this stage of the game. (4) EchelonTee is not paying attention and making up stuff on the fly. This has been proven by many things. His filter skim, his change of reasoning, his answer to my gumshoe case, him asking people's opinions on his case on thrawn and when people give them he misses it. None of those things i can see a townie doing in any situation. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25558 Posts
Vote Count! Onegu (2): Gumshoe, Onegu Sn0 (1): OO WoS (1): Ceph Umasi (1): Hzflank EchelonTee (2): Syl, Rayn Thrawn (2): ET, Van Not Voting (4): Sn0, thrawn, Umasi, WoS With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch. Currently no-one is set to be lynched! It is now Day 1. This Day ends in at Tuesday, Nov 05 10:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00) aka 22:00 GMT (+00:00). Make sure to get your THREE witchcraft votes in to Ange777 and Blazinghand by that time. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25558 Posts
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Sylencia
Australia1057 Posts
Catching up and making final post before going to bed, probably wont be around for the deadline. | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43270 Posts
Epic fail host :p | ||
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Sylencia
Australia1057 Posts
On November 05 2013 14:23 WaveofShadow wrote: Alright my turn. This was what stuck out the most for me about Syl: I looked over this a couple of times and I'm not sure what conclusion to draw. Initially I thought 'Well here's a completely new point nobody has brought up regarding the Ceph case before. I disagree with the conclusion (same as Umasi) but it looks like he's legitimately diving and putting forth effort. Townie points.' The issue I'm finding now upon reading it again is, what mindset does it take to assume that Ceph's aggression is forced? Sylencia's assumption obviously wasn't a common thought amongst those people who tried to debunk Cephiro's case on me, otherwise it would have been brought up already. I think originally I had Sylencia as town but on second thought now I'm not so sure. It seems my thoughts may be more in line with hzflank. He calls his own idea of pre-targeting 'baseless conjecture,' and most importantly he calls it something he could see as scum being likely to do---but would a townie immediately consider this? I think it speaks of a scum mindset honestly. I have him just below null on the scum-o-meter and I will not be lynching him today; as was stated I don't think it will be too difficult to garner reads on him as we go forward. The point of my game though was to see who would engage freely and see which of the points I initially thought of when looking through Sylencia were brought up by others and why---again this can often be very telling as to where others' mindsets lie when performing analysis. As it stands right now I shared some of Umasi's and hzflank's thoughts enough that I am still fine in where my vote stands---on Onegu, who did not bother to address what was going on in thread, rather he chose to comment on my post defending his activity and throw out some other irrelevant reads for the moment. Eh, at the moment I'm more trying to interpret posts in the shoes of those who say it, and figure out their train of thought behind posting it. It's potentially more telling than just interpreting things at face value. That's why I said it was mostly baseless conjecture, because there is a ton of assumption put behind some of the points I bring up. On November 05 2013 14:45 EchelonTee wrote: That was the very beginning of the game. I wanted Syl to talk. It did not succeed because apparntly I am supposed to expect that Syl will not respond rationally to questions. When didn't I respond rationally? On November 05 2013 15:18 EchelonTee wrote: If I was scum, I would be pushing a mislynch on a poor-playing townie because it is extremely easy to do so. My last game as scum I do so ineffectively (but still do), but if you look at any of my previous scum games (liar game, jubjub mafia) you'll see. Since I am town, I am must less sure about my reads. Since the entirety of your case seems to be that I have weak opinions, which is true as it is Day 1, there's nothing more I have to say to you. It's just as easy for scum to sheep, in fact with Majority Voting it's better than they don't push mislynches and let town panic themselves to a mislynch. As for meta, it's mildly weak as a point of attack, but it's honestly crap when it's used as defense. If you're so aware of how you play as scum, it sets you up in the future to abuse that meta and claim you're playing differently. About Onegu's self vote: Hate it, but I can't see scum doing it though at the same time it is a problem whether or not he's scum because it's a vote we can't use to get a majority. If he's town we need 7 of 9 to vote scum (w/o bus), and that's kinda unlikely :| Rayn: That case is pretty spectacular. I like it. Sticking to my vote for ET tonight. | ||
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Vanesco
United States105 Posts
Echelon has been one of my most townie reads for a large majority of this game. I agree with his point that the second time that thrawn votes ryan it is not given reason as to why really. Yes it seems more like pressure but I think its possible he just misinterpreted that. The rest of the points seem to more about meta game things, which since I know none of you I can't get too involved in that. However the accusations on the meta seem very weak to me. I do only agree that maybe his case on gumshoe is fairly weak. Just because somebody shows effort and contribution by making a long post does not mean they cannot be scum, however the way I read it is that he thinks gumshoe is at least providing more pro town content than thrawn. It seems that there has been no real agreement on a target and as such I still think thrawn is the best vote. I will try to come online during work near the post deadline to see if anything sways my opinion, and since I will be on my phone and short pressed on time, I will give any vote changes reasoning once I return home. | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
this happened yesterday too then I get flamed because I'm afk or something. I'm fairly open to an Onegu lynch. That guy martyrs as scum all the time. I haven't identified anybody else I really want to lynch. Rayns points against ET make sense and all but at the same time if ET is scum he's successfully changed a lot of things about his scum play in the last... week. Which is eminently possible I guess, I mean I give him that much credit. OO's still scum but thrawn sez he's not so I'm not sure where to go with that one. Considering its majority lynch I don't think i'll waste anybodies time with him today. Coming up with 3 townreads is pretty hard when they can't just be the obvious candidates | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31495 Posts
Sn0, show me where Onegu martyrs as scum. Its the only thing holding me back atm. | ||
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Ange777
Germany1164 Posts
Vote Count! Vanesco (0): hzflank (0): Umasi (1): WaveofShadow (1): Onegu (2): gumshoe (0): raynpelikoneet (0): Sn0_Man (1): ObviousOne, EchelonTee (2): Sylencia, raynpelikoneet thrawn2112 (2): EchelonTee, Vanesco Not Voting (4): Sn0_Man, thrawn2112, Umasi, WaveofShadow With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch. Currently no-one is set to be lynched! It is now Day 1. This Day ends in at Tuesday, Nov 05 10:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00) aka 22:00 GMT (+00:00). Make sure to get your THREE witchcraft votes in to Ange777 and Blazinghand by that time. | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
I'll admit that I often get the same vibes from his townplay and in general I have real difficulty reading Onegu, but I'd argue that that makes him a serious liability to have moving into the late game. And he hasn't done anything to make me think he's town. I mean, if he IS town, then he wants to die so we should oblige him and solve that questionmark. If he is scum, then we lynch scum. It feels like the right move right now. Besides what townie ever self votes except in frustration? This wasn't frustration it was "look at me I'm so cooperative and want town to win" yeah right. | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
I'm around from now till deadline though so my vote can move if we need to get a majority somewhere. | ||
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WaveofShadow
Canada31495 Posts
On November 06 2013 02:36 Sn0_Man wrote: Last game I gave him a townread for something and he said stuff like "don't give me a townread for that" and shit. Maybe not full martyr but the mindset is the same. Its "Would scum throw away "towncred" like this? Would scum call attention to themselves like this? Of course not". Its how Onegu plays. I'll admit that I often get the same vibes from his townplay and in general I have real difficulty reading Onegu, but I'd argue that that makes him a serious liability to have moving into the late game. And he hasn't done anything to make me think he's town. I mean, if he IS town, then he wants to die so we should oblige him and solve that questionmark. If he is scum, then we lynch scum. It feels like the right move right now. Besides what townie ever self votes except in frustration? This wasn't frustration it was "look at me I'm so cooperative and want town to win" yeah right. Nope I disagree. That's not at all the same thing as what he's doing right now, and I don't think I have a good reason to put my vote back on him right now. Problem is, I don't know who I DO want to put my vote back onto. You don't seem particularly grateful for me saving your ass considering it would probably be you up for lynch if I didn't recognize the wish and the wash leading up to it. Now I'm wondering if I made a mistake derailing that. Do you plan on being useless the whole game? In which case I could use similar logic you just used towards Onegu---you haven't done anything to make me think you're town, and maybe it would be good to solve a question mark, hmmm? | ||
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