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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
 I wont be able to be very active on mondays, but shouldn't be more then 16 hours without being able to check/post, which seems like it leaves plenty of wriggle room with this time control. Let me know if I do anything wrong. /in Any idea when the game might start? edit: occidentally posted before I was done, I know not to edit after game starts though :p | ||
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
On September 02 2013 09:14 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Hello townies! As coach, I will help with the 3 things Mocsta will not help with. Just a few conditions: 1. I'm not under oath to tell the truth 2. I'm a career lurker and will most likely get you lynched 3. Go home and macro, real men do DT drops anyway. I'm sold | ||
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
About the MI6 veteran class, how do the two lives work. If mafia/vigi shoot him at night does he/the shooter/everyone get notified that he's lost a life? And is there any way to tell (both as the vet and as the shooter) whether the target survived because he was vet or because a medic saved him. | ||
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
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killerdog
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Not much seems to have happened so far, other then the prolonged discussion about whether to lynch or not, but heres what I've got so far. First note, Umasi and holyflare seem to me to be the two players steering the conversation, they're the people who bring up new topics, or actively disagree with/try to change the public consensus on something. Also noted that they both mentioned having played with each other, infi and lonemeow, so they're definitely not first time players, and that's probably why they're being so much less timid then everyone else. Also infi didn't mention either of them or lonemeow in his one post, but this might just be because he seemed like he was just saying hi before he went to bed (from his one post, which didn't reference the current conversation at all). Several people have only made one or two posts, with very little content. Velocity, who several people seem to have jumped on already, as blurry said, On September 04 2013 11:09 Blurry wrote: Strongest scum read: Lord Velocity, hes just following along with Umasi's ideas, not really providing any of his own stuff. Heavenz made one post, which didn't say anything at all. I'm going to overlook that as him just being on the way to bed/about to go somewhere, however it's a bad first impression and he'll have to prove his worth actively when he gets back. pharcyd3, who noone seems to have mentioned (at least before i started writing this essay :p) has only made a single post, and it was one sentence openly attacking heavenz. While having a useless first post can be excused as just dipping your toes in the water or something, he openly threw doubt on someone, said absolutely nothing else, then vanished. Just based off this he'd probably be my scum read. It feels like two philosophies are clashing between Umasi and Holyflare, both have been incredibly vocal and assertive in terms of controlling the discussion, and haven't been at all afraid to take a stand. A lot of the (non lynch/sleep) discourse seems to have been basically those responding to each other and other people just agreeing with one or the other. Personally I think given how there are many people who have said literally nothing of value so far, there hasn't been any reason for either Umasi or Holyflare to be this vocal/sure of themselves should they be scum, and because of how easy it could have been for them to calmly take the backseat and let people waste time, I wouldn't (currently) feel comfortable voting for either. If nothing else, I think a a vocal mafia is much better to keep until day 2 (and lynch him then) then a quiet townie who will stay quiet, because it gives a shitload of information. Although that doesn't mean I don't want Holyflare to clarify his position. He got a bit confrontational after (i think blurry) mentioned everyone just giving scum/town reads. My current read is Holyflare and Umasi are both town, but both seem to have (subconsciously or not) tried to take on the "leadership" role of the townies, and seem to be clashing. (note i've been writing this for a while now and more stuff might have been said since i started. Umasi has been the most consistent though, starting off by discouraging people making "i am new" posts to avoid mislynches, and has been consistent in starting conversations which would force mafia to say things which might later come back to haunt them. It's 6 am so I'm probably gonna go to sleep now, looking forward to seeing how the thread develops overnight, and hopefully my grammar/spelling will be better tomorrow and i wont ramble as much :p | ||
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
While loaded questions are fine, I think there's a difference between being articulate, and creative writing. Going overboard with figures of speech/ultimatums/hyperbole are just ways to make posts seem to have more content then they do, and while all native English speakers (including myself) naturally use them a lot, if someone can't go a sentence or two without being overly dramatic, that would read really scummy to me because it makes it feel like they're trying to convince people based on their phrasing rather then the actual content of the posts. Fuck, forgot the second thing while typing the first, but it will probably come to me. | ||
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
While holy was posting most at the time, so it's not that odd that blurry has mainly been talking to him, it feels like anything holyflare posts, blurry disagreed with, and it was blurry who started the talk about saying your town/scum reads, which holy then refused to do. | ||
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
Having the two most vocal people crash into each other immediately just means that the other 10 players can get away with not saying anything SUPER easily, and the aim day 1 is to get as much information on as many people as possible. It's been noted that Umasi has been tunelling hard on Holyflare, and it's been noted that Holyflare has mentioned several other topics of discussion which have been brought up in the meantime. I doubt Holyflare is going to suddenly crack at this point, and I doubt anything Holyflare says will fully satisfy Umasi. By all means try and settle this if you can, but I feel it would be much more pro town to note down that this happened, maybe revisit it at a later date, and focus on getting as many people to talk about as many things as possible. It just feels like all potential discussion topics (including the questioning of velocity) was brought in the last few pages have ended up being ignored because of this really early vote call/interrogation. | ||
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
Ok, my post might have been slightly more directed at Umasi then at you, although I did note that you were trying to bring up/participating in other topics (whether that's deflecting or trying to get town back on track I don't know, but it's potentially useful knowledge.) I feel like Umasi had a valid reason for pressuring you, and while it hasn't fully been resolved, (it feels like you're arguing past each other a bit) some things have been said which might be useful later on which otherwise might not have, it just feels like nothing is coming out of it anymore. | ||
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
On September 04 2013 14:23 Umasi wrote: ##UNVOTE HOLYFLARE Do you think what I did was bad play? you can go to bed and address this when you wake up/whenever you want, I'm going to do homework. tbth, this entire thing is pro-town since people will be able to talk about it, and it gives me more to go off of concerning you (and the people who comment about it), and possibly you more to go off of (regarding me and the people who comment), assuming you're town. If you're scum w.e. For everyone, just a psa about me I normally keep the person I think is the scummiest as my vote target, but since there are quite a few people I'm leery of, it rests on no one for now. I don't think pressuring him was bad play, and we certainly have a lot of information that we otherwise would not have, it's given a lot of posts from both you and holyflare which might be useful later on, and there is also valuable information in who chimed in, and who avoided/stayed out of the discussion altogether. I agree that holyflare said a few things which could be interpreted as being contradictory, and pressuring people for contradictions is always good, but I just felt you had started "tunnelling" (to use the word loosely) a bit too hard on him given how early in the game it is. The two of you are probably my strongest town reads based off of how independent and active you've both been and both of you have brought up several topics/ideas which I thought were pretty pro town moves. The reason I interjected was because, with you two being the two most active and vocal people so far in terms of steering and provoking discussion, I was hoping to give either of you the chance leave a few questions for/give your reads on the other, quieter, players in the game, to force them to speak up. My fear was if I didn't interject, the two of you would keep arguing (to keep overusing the term) "past" each other without any new information coming up, and then when one of you left the other would go quiet and noone would say anything forcing others to speak up until tomorrow when you get back into the thread. Unfortunately my post seemed to just cause that to happen, so maybe I butted in too early. I agree the pressure was pro town, but I just felt it was dragging on a bit without anything new happening, and it drew attention away from the inactivity/non productive posts of some other players who went relatively unchallenged, and got through yesterday without actually having to defend themselves. With 48 hour days, and players being in different timezones, I see each player as having two "windows" of time each game-day where they can be reasonably expected to respond to allegations/questions, and allowing the discussion to become too focussed on one person allows all the other players to get away with doing nothing for one of these "windows." Gonna read through the new posts now and post my thoughts after. | ||
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
umasi -He was one of my original town reads, and hasn't been afraid of the limelight/stepping on peoples toes. I really liked his first post in that he pointed out that making "i am new" posts just serves to give people more ammunition to throw suspicion on random people, and potentially saved us from being in a situation where 4-5 people read really scummy just off their first post, which could have derailed town a lot and let mafia with decent first posts hide easily.) He was vocal about wanting to move on from the lynch/nolynch debate (which seems fair) and he put the original pressure on velocity. But then decided to pounce on holyflare. Whether that was a good decision or not I don't know but he comitted to it pretty hard, other then one post at velocity, he's focussed 100% on holyflare from that point on. He also poked chairman ray for a bit of information earlier on. I still think he's town, but given how willing he was to pressure that hard against holyflare, I would be hesitant to centre any kind of town circle around him. I would much rather have someone more passive/gentle like blurry helping guide the discussion because if we just pressure every mistake too hard, people will get intimidated and afraid of posting, and we risk tunell visioning away from more subtle scummy behaviour. Also worth noting that he and holyflare have played before, where (as far as i can tell) Umasi was scum and Holyflare played a good town town. I don't know if the events of that game have had any effect on the decisions either Umasi or Holyflare have made this game, since they brought it up in their first posts, it might as well be mentioned. infii -Didn't say much of anything yesterday, but thats understandable because timezones. He made a post today basically calling out the people who haven't been posting much, other then that he's one of the first people (other then velocity) to suggest Umasi isn't playing pro town. The only read i've been able to infer (other then the inactives) is that he's a bit suspicious of Umasi/maybe looking to disntance himself from umasi. First he voices a disagreement with Umasi's policy of keeping a vote on his suspect, the says On September 05 2013 00:54 infii wrote: Still too early for conclusions. The only thing I find noteworthy until now is Umasi's kinda-agressiveness and twisting words in others mouths, seems a bit scummy. He hasn't really contributed anything other then that, and it sticks out a bit that pretty much the only thing he's done is knock on other people for not doing enough. on the whole a pretty neutral read so far. heavenz -First post wasn't really anything, I believe he was saying hi before going to bed. His post with his reads is pretty intereseting, and i agree with most of them. I'm interested by the fact he has holyflare on his scum list (although i agree that holy has been being a bit uncooperative) as most people other then umasi seem to have read him as town so far. I've written this before holy's section, so we'll see if i change my mind on holyflare after going through holyflares filter again. Don't have much of a read on him, but he's contributed and seems much townier then some of the people so far. myRzeth -Still hasn't postsed, apparently he's in germany so I would expect him to post, at the latest, this evening. Otherwise he'll need to have a good excuse. Bereft -Not got much on him, he was supportive of blurry's move to just out reads to get things going, and he was also disagreeing with Holyflare when it came to Holyflares decision to withhold his reads. However while Umasi took this as a queue to pounce on holyflare, Bereft seemed pacified by holyflare posting this: On September 04 2013 13:24 Holyflare wrote: I've never said not to talk I just said don't call people scum or announce them as 'reads', do what you just did and it's all good by me. and backed off hard, called for people who haven't psoted yet to post and dissapear. Don't have much of a read on him either way either. Pharcyd3 -By far the most suspicious person so far in my opinion. To reiterate what I said, his one post is just attacking heavenz for his first post, irony of that aside, doing that and then dissapearing is really scummy in my opinion. The reason I'm so suspicious of him is I'm having a hard time visualising a situation where he's town and acts like this. If he's in a hurry and didn't have time to read the thread then randomly throwing accusations at someone without having read the thread yet is either really bad town, or plain scum. If we assume that he wasn't just randomly throwing accusations around without reading the thread fully. If he had time to read the thread, why didn't he have the extra minute or two it would have taken to address any of the topics being discussed, I don't see a townie thinking it's ok to throw suspicions on someone, ignoring the current conversation, then disappear. I also found it interesting that so many people picked up on velocity's post, but so few noticed pharcyd3's. For the record here are the people who posted after pharcyd3's post but didn't mention it until I fingered him in my first post. HolyFlare, Blurry (references velocity), Bereft (references velocity), Umasi (references velocity) Note bereft did say just before i posted On September 04 2013 13:26 Bereft wrote: also infii, killerdog, myrzeth, pharcyd3, where you guys at? so he might have just missed it. HolyFlare -Holyflare seems to be involved in everything, early on he was very much in control of the flow of debate, bringing up sleeping n1, then not being afraid of disagreeing with people. However once Blurry suggested sharing reads he pretty defensive/confrontational. Regardless of his orientation, to me he feels like a rather charismatic player who doesn't want to just scrape by being passive and answering questions, but rather wants to be one fo the people in the driving seat, and that might be why he reacted to blurry taking the initiative like he did. There were three people who stood out to me as pressuring him on his refusal to share reads. -Bereft, who seemed to be satisfied by holyflares response, -Blurry, most of blurry's posts seem to be things holyflare disagreed with, or vice versa -Umasi, who ended up going hard on holyflare. To be honest I'm having a hard time getting any kind of read off of him. He's stated that his style is "asking off the cuff questions about posts" to catch people off guard. Something he's been consistent in doing. He also didn't seem to change his posting style, or go super defensive when umasi voted for him. He's talking alot (most posts of anyone i think) and doing a good job asking questions but the way he reacted to being asked for reads was a bit dereailing and very uncooperative. He hasn't really given any evidence to prove himself town so far. He's talking a ton about the over all "metagame" of mafia, and a lot about mafia tactics in general but basically nothing relevant to this game itself. It takes more then asking other people questions to prove yourself a townie, and refusing to give any analysis on the other players at all, while still expecting people to answer all your questions is asking for a lot. Still very much on the fence about him and I'm starting to regret interrupting Usami when i did. Lord Velocity -Originally I felt people were sort of ganging up on velocity without any real case. He made a first post which didn't say much other then give a "gut feeling" and, true, he was asked for reads by umasi and didn't answer the question before leaving the thread for a while, but considering that pharcyd3 made an at least equally suspicious post 12 minutes later, and that got totally ignored, the number of people putting velocity on their lists seemed a bit high. However after reading his defensive posts, I'm a lot more suspicious of him now. He called scum on Umasi based on On September 04 2013 13:24 Lord Velocity wrote: Strongest Scum read: Umasi due to his fast vote on Holyflare and his super aggressive early play. Which feels a lot like just counter accusations rather then a justified read, just stating what happened rather then saying why you thought the actions were scummy isn't very watertight. This On September 04 2013 23:02 Lord Velocity wrote: I think I shoulndn't be lynched and we should hear from more people about reads on everybody before we misslynch and end up having no reads. school, so I might post from there. Bye/brb Also felt like a bit of an overreaction given the amount of pressure he was under at the time. He might just be a townie who wasn't expecting pressure and overreacted though. Not sure on him, but he's on the scummier end of the spectrum out the the players who have posted more then a paragraph or two. Hopefully he will start volunteering some information himself without any more pressure. Chairman Ray -Hasn't been very active yet, This one post is a huge elephant in the room when it comes to him On September 04 2013 07:53 Chairman Ray wrote: Has everyone got their QT yet? You should have received one by now. The way he phrased it makes it seem unlikely that he's mafia slipping up. As someone else said, he might have been trying to trip up a mafia, or just screwing around, but I would very much like him to go on record saying why he posted this just so it's dealt with and doesn't cause misunderstandings later. Other then that he hasn't said much other encouraging threatening to lynch people which seems logical enough. Not enough content for a read though, hope he posts more tonight. LoneMeow -Hasn't said much content wise, although i do agree with his statement that Umasi/Holyflare argument seems a bit town v town. He seems to have popped in at a time when the thread was relatively inactive, and posed questions to a few people. He hasn't pointed out much which hasn't already been said though. Blurry -As i mentioned in an earlier post, Blurry was disagreeing with holyflare on several points over several different posts. Infact his first 5 posts are all either voicing a differing opinion to holyf, or straight up quoting him and disagreeing. He then brought up the topic of just sharing reads to promote discussion, which holyf refused to do (which then set umasi off.) I don't know if this is one of them trying to distance themselves from the other, or one getting some kind of read off of the other, (or indeed just a side effect of them being two of the more active players during that time period) but as it's pretty much all Blurry has done I feel it's relevant. He's also spared two posts to help explain a few things to velocity, from those two i would say he seems to think velocity is just town who overreacted to a bit of pressure, regardless of why he did it though, I think explaining why he was under suspicion is a pro town move, as mafia would probably want to let him just talk himself into a lynch rather then try and help him. I also liked how he helped move the discussion along on day 1 by calling for reads. One of the townier players imo. | ||
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
On September 05 2013 03:38 LoneMeow wrote: If he never says anything, that's modkill territory and lynching him is pointless. If he does come up at the last moment just to drop his vote to avoid modkill, he'll die D2. Lynching a zero-post guy is pointless. Much rather lynch someone who's clearly in the game but lurking, because that's where scum is most often found. I agree in that there isn't much point in trying to apply pressure to someone who isn't here. I think everyone is in agreement that unless he has a good excuse/some really good analysis when he does arrive, then he's dead anyway unless he gets modkilled. I'd rather choose someone who hasn't said much *of value* and pressure them a bit. | ||
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
On September 05 2013 03:57 LoneMeow wrote: The post you quoted is just pure WIFOM either way; town trying to trip scum, or scum trying to look like town trying to trip scum. I'd prefer to just ignore it, for now. I assume WIFOM means useless, but as a general request, can people explain what acronyms mean the first time they use them? Another one was FoL or something, and I don't want to misunderstand anyone just because I misread an acronym. (also mylo/lylo or something.) And i agree that it's a post which we shouldn't focus on, that's why I would like him to just post what he meant by it ASAP, so we can forget about it. It just forces him to put his cards on the table now, while also preventing it from popping up again later and causing trouble. Given that he seems to be here right now, why not get it out of the way rather then leaving it in the corner to fester. Gotta go for a while, but I'll be back in a bit. | ||
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
Ignoring posts about lynch vs no lynch You've basically said early scum reads are useless, and given a few reasons for that, among which is one that I'm not sure i agree with, that we should pressure late in the day because "they wont have time to properly prepare answers in the qt" (correct me if i misunderstood.) I'll get to that in a second. You've also said that On September 04 2013 13:23 Holyflare wrote: Highlight a post that you question and ask for an explanation. It adds a pseudo pressure whereby they don't need to formulate the post, they just need to explain themselves. That is where the scum hunting is found, not by saying X or Y is scum and he has to panic create posts. and On September 04 2013 13:51 Holyflare wrote: The constant criticism of one player always shuts the door on other players who are sitting back and watching things happen. Killerdog brings up some excellent points about other players that we should all be addressing. However, as they are most likely not around for now we can't do that. Most people seem to be around now, and the threads been pretty active for the last few hours, but all you've been doing since making those posts is saying that people are playing badly, and been disagreeing with umasi on what the best way to play town is. If you have a better way, then do it. Ask the questions of people, follow up on the points you think are important. If you think Umasi is playing badly, say so, then ignore him and do what you would do if he wasn't here. Sitting here and telling everyone "Umasi is being ridiculous" benefits noone. Separately, About the idea of pressuring people before the deadline. Personally I don't think thats a very reliable tool at all, given the fact that we're Spread out among several timezones, people will have valid excuses for not being here near the deadline, so if the person who you want to pressure goes to bed 4-5 horus before the deadline, then you're left there faced with the choice of either starting a movement to lynch someone who won't be there to defend themselves before the lynch deadline, or having to give up on that target for the round. If you artificially constrain the period where you're willing to pressure people to a certain period, then either they can just not be in the thread for the period, or alternately, people who are asleep/at work/school during the period of time before the lynch will seem suspicious just because of the timezone they happen to live in. But I'd love to hear your argument in support of it. (or clarification if i misunderstood what you were getting at. | ||
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
On September 05 2013 07:48 Chairman Ray wrote: Irrelevant post? Fixing keyboard? How do these two things even relate? Did anyone see the post before it was edited? I actually think we had a slipup. vote Lord Velocity What was the post before you edited? Wait, what just happened? To quote the rules On August 20 2013 05:33 ShiaoPi wrote: Editing: Editing is not allowed for any reason. Editing will result in a warning. After that, you will be modkilled. This is the one part of the site where it is okay to be double posting, even triple-posting. While I ask for everybody to post as concisely as possible, post again using the acronym (EBWOP: Edit by way of posting) if you want to clarify/correct something you just posted. I see no reason why a "broken keyboard" has to result in an edit which can get you modkilled, you'd better have a really good reason for that. Mod question, just to clarify, the rules say no voting in this thread, but everyones been saying that they vote here, and crossposting the vote to the other thread. Do you have to vote in both, or do only votes in that thread count (and what happens if you say vote in this thread but not in that one) Also is there any rule regarding the revealing of what was edited? (by site mod or whatever,) Or is the warning the only thing. (and does that mean each mafia almost has a single "free" edit before actual consequences occur?. | ||
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
On September 05 2013 07:56 killerdog wrote: + Show Spoiler + Holyflare, you're posting a lot about what we shouldn't do, and very little about what we should. Ignoring posts about lynch vs no lynch You've basically said early scum reads are useless, and given a few reasons for that, among which is one that I'm not sure i agree with, that we should pressure late in the day because "they wont have time to properly prepare answers in the qt" (correct me if i misunderstood.) I'll get to that in a second. You've also said that On September 04 2013 13:23 Holyflare wrote: Highlight a post that you question and ask for an explanation. It adds a pseudo pressure whereby they don't need to formulate the post, they just need to explain themselves. That is where the scum hunting is found, not by saying X or Y is scum and he has to panic create posts. and On September 04 2013 13:51 Holyflare wrote: The constant criticism of one player always shuts the door on other players who are sitting back and watching things happen. Killerdog brings up some excellent points about other players that we should all be addressing. However, as they are most likely not around for now we can't do that. Most people seem to be around now, and the threads been pretty active for the last few hours, but all you've been doing since making those posts is saying that people are playing badly, and been disagreeing with umasi on what the best way to play town is. If you have a better way, then do it. Ask the questions of people, follow up on the points you think are important. If you think Umasi is playing badly, say so, then ignore him and do what you would do if he wasn't here. Sitting here and telling everyone "Umasi is being ridiculous" benefits noone. Separately, About the idea of pressuring people before the deadline. Personally I don't think thats a very reliable tool at all, given the fact that we're Spread out among several timezones, people will have valid excuses for not being here near the deadline, so if the person who you want to pressure goes to bed 4-5 horus before the deadline, then you're left there faced with the choice of either starting a movement to lynch someone who won't be there to defend themselves before the lynch deadline, or having to give up on that target for the round. If you artificially constrain the period where you're willing to pressure people to a certain period, then either they can just not be in the thread for the period, or alternately, people who are asleep/at work/school during the period of time before the lynch will seem suspicious just because of the timezone they happen to live in. But I'd love to hear your argument in support of it. (or clarification if i misunderstood what you were getting at. Also just to clarify, on re-reading it my post sounds a bit more aggressive/accusatory then I meant it to be. I'm just pointing out that, (slightly ironically given your earlier posts :p) it feels like you've gotten caught up in some kind of philosophical disagreement with Umasi, and it feels like you're posting responses/disagreements at him rather then original content. | ||
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
I'm leaving this here until we get a GOOD explanation of why he edited. The only town reason I can see for him having edited is if he posted something private/personal/really embarrassing by accident, panicked, and deleted it. But that doesn't at all match with the reasons he gave. Posting something irrelevant is harmless, what on earth does that have to do with a broken keyboard? and why the hell does he immediately have to disappear for "a few hours" without even being able to give some small reason as to why he broke one of the few strict rules of this game. Right now I'm seeing a Mafia who posted something he shouldn't have, panicked, and has fled the thread until he can contact his coach/talk to mafia buddies in qt to work out how to do damage control, and until someone comes up with a convincing alternative my vote is staying. | ||
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
###vote: Lord Velocity misspelled his name lol | ||
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