EPTOn July 21 2013 08:36 FirmTofu wrote:
GG guys. This game got me modkilled in Sicilian.
GG guys. This game got me modkilled in Sicilian.
Why?
[T] Nuclear Winter Mafia - Page 16
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WaveofShadow
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Why? | ||
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WaveofShadow
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Edit: Also Ace your frustration in the scum QT was tangible. If only town wasn't so incredibly bad this game. | ||
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On July 21 2013 09:19 Ace wrote: I actually PM'd Artanis early on to replace me because the Scum team was so afk Half of the players in this game were afk. Sigh. I mentioned this after another recent game (I forget which) but this is a game where policy lynching.nuking really would have come in handy to weed out the uselessness. I'm just really not sure how to go about enforcing something like that when I've never seen it done. | ||
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On July 21 2013 09:27 Koshi wrote: Ace don't you think you could have been in a better position if you were more active yourself? WoS could you have been persuaded by you if you were there? Could I have been persuaded by Ace? In what regard? My redirect to him? No I was pretty much set on it by then. A scumflip on Ace meant Oats was confirmed and probably Chez as well, and a townflip meant Geript was scum. Koshi Ace played very well considering the antics and afkness of his team. You don't need to be a spam poster to influence the game in a direction you want it to go---Ace is very good at subtlety from either alignment. | ||
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WaveofShadow
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Chez is still pretty amusing and at least plays the game, albeit in his own strange way. CA's play I have more of a problem with this game and though the onus is on us for not having killed him for it, it's a borderline dick move to constantly make out-of-game excuses for your play and survive that way. ESPECIALLY when as far as I can tell most people (if not everyone) tells the truth when they bring out-of-game reasons into the thread for shit play/afk. | ||
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On July 21 2013 14:01 getmoript wrote: Are you kidding me? The only reason why Koshi looked like town was because he looked to stupid to be scum. Guess I'll just have to lynch him because I doubt anyone will be able to tell a difference between his normal town stupid and his scum stupid. Also, I'm removing the too stupid to be scum as a town tell because him. If anyone can be that stupid normally or fake being that stupid that well then oh well. Yah, MG should've died D3. But no one listened to any logical points on why to lynch him instead of nuking him and why that made Ace scum until a day or 2 later. This is not an example of a game with good scum play. I don't think I've seen a game of good scum play since The Game where Kita and Bugs and BH dominated throughout. Ace played pretty well, but the rest of the scum team rode him like a bitch in heat. Chezinu was Chezinu and he forever will be tunneled, shot, lynched, etc. in every single game from now on until he decides to actually play for real. I hope they lynch his ass in Ver's game. Also, Oats your scum play is going to be pretty easy from now on unless you step it up. This is a prime example of town derping and not having players with a reputation that can push a lynch. Being able to push a lynch here is 90% reputation, 5% luck, 5% thought. That's why Ace was able to get away with the bullshit he did on D3. Maju gets lynched earlier and you guys have far more problems. Closed setup also heavily favored scum especially with 6 scum and a god awful SK. Game would've been fair if town had 1-2 more vets and idk 3-4 less dumbass lurkers. I'm not so sure I agree with you to be honest. First of all, you can't necessarily have a bunch of experienced players in every single game taking up every spot---if you want that kind of a game, host an invite only. Putting up with lurkers and general shit play/newbiness is part of what TL Mafia is about and always has been since I've started. Consider someone like BC who would fully advocate ridding every game of players that fit your descriptions. There are people who agree but it's not exactly an easy task and there are probably multiple levels of shit/weird play that some people find acceptable and others don't. Where do you draw a line? As well, after this game I'm pretty certain you don't need a 'reputation' to push a lynch---I got the Gumshoe lynch through instead of SnB/Austin and I don't think you'd consider me someone with a reputation----you just need to play/convince better. Obviously this game was particularly difficult in that people simply weren't fucking PLAYING the game, but I don't see how it had anything to do with 'vet' vs not. You're a qt and all, but you balance whine a LOT. It's hard out there for a host. I feel like the setup may have been slightly non-town favoured but again, themed. Nukes flyin' every which way and shit. A whole fuckton of blue roles more than there would normally be. Take it in stride, my friend. | ||
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On July 21 2013 14:26 getmoript wrote: I hope they also discuss and tell people to GTFO if they intend to lurk. Nothing is any more infuriating to me than when town lurk-a-derps. I think by the end of D1 13 of 27 players had less than a 1 page filter. Onegu is here and trying to post WHILE HE'S FUCKING SICK OFF HIS ASS!!! People can devote enough time to scumhunt and be productive. If this lurking bullshit doesn't stop then we're going to have to have more vigilantes or find a better way to manage it because that in and of itself really imbalances the games. This I can agree with. I think the minimum postcount needs to be raised. Once per cycle + vote is simply not enough to ensure an enjoyable game. (Technically we DID have a shit ton of vigs this game  ) | ||
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On July 21 2013 14:23 s0Lstice wrote: Being able to push a lynch here is 90% reputation, 5% luck, 5% thought. couldn't agree more with this. I hope it gets discussed in one of the podcasts at least...the way vets are treated around here is ridiculous. I'm pretty sure this was discussed in one of the very first podcasts actually. And I'm pretty sure Geript was actually involved in it. It essentially comes down to the fact that 'vets' are vets for a reason, and have a certain way of doing things that in general make people want to follow their directions. They have shown themselves to be quality players time and time again. That doesn't necessarily mean they are perfect or should always be sheeped or are incapable of fucking up or whatever. I dunno I'm pretty sure in the podcast the 'vet' vs 'noob' bias was debunked somewhat. Solstice what specifically are you referring to in this game about vets being treated differently than others? | ||
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On July 21 2013 14:35 geript wrote: I have never seen this sheer level of lurking in a normal game before. Like ever. I don't have any problem with newbies or less experienced players. Lurking is just unacceptable. I really hope that more games actually become invite only if this level of bullshit continues. I agree with this. Obviously I disagree, but there's an important reason why. The Gumshoe lynch was a really weird situation that I don't think you could reproduce. It was what like D4 so there aren't many players. He was kinda lurking and I thought about Rayn's townread on him from D1 and went fuck it, people don't want to lynch who I want to lynch so I'll throw my hat in with WoS because I know he's town and I don't think I can convince him to lynch otherwise. To get a good lynch early on D1-2 definitely and often D3 as well, you need a someone who can throw their reputation behind the lynch or else it doesn't get moving. This I don't agree with at all. It has less to do in my opinion with who a person is than what they're capable of to get a lynch through. Geript your townplay (aside from that weird shit with jampi/MG) was really solid this game. Part of mafia is proving that you are a person whose word should be followed and convincing people that your word is what makes sense. There are multiple ways of doing so---for example I listen to Prom a lot when he plays because his meta analysis is crazy strong and I find his reads to be very accurate. This isn't because he's a 'vet,' but because he manages to convince me through his cases and how accurate I feel him to be. I find him friendlier and easier to appeal ingame to than someone like marv, for example. I honestly think the inability to convince people is not anyone's fault but he who is trying to do the convincing/trying to push a lynch. The "experienced" to "newer" player ratio isn't something the host can or should control IMO. I'm a full on believer in random role distribution. My point was that after the early kills town didn't have a "rep" guy who could circle the wagons around a lynch. As for game setup/role balance, I think that the hosts hit the exact numbers and roles right on the money honestly. | ||
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On July 21 2013 14:40 geript wrote: Here's a great example. On D3 was it, I made perfectly good explanations for lynching Maju despite the nuke. I explained it in full. Yet people thought I was trying to lynch a nuke despite knowing that there are nuke immune roles in the game AND that Rayn had called Ace scum. Ace used pretty words. I used logic. Who won that argument? I can't speak for other people but my reasoning for not listening to you was because I thought you were scum! It didn't have anything to do with Ace specifically at that point, it was my own case against you and your actions which appeared like a scum plan to me. It has absolutely not a thing to do with lack of respect for you or a great deal of respect for Ace. Not listening to Rayn is because I don't find his early game reads particularly accurate much of the time. He can be, but the whole 'listen to dead people' is kind of overrated in my opinion. Dead guys are bound to be right about something or another, but it's not like you have any way of knowing that any more than someone who is alive until you see some flips. You have no idea why mafia killed them. | ||
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On July 21 2013 14:52 s0Lstice wrote: there isn't a particular example this game, its an overall feeling from all the games i've read and played in. I get the argument that people listen to vets because they often say shit worth listening to. That doesn't stop it from being frustrating. It often feels like there are two games going on concurrently...one where the vets play with eachother, and one where the rabble does whatever the rabble does. The problem is that it makes a lot of worthwhile shit get entirely overlooked. I think its frustrating for both sides really. It creates a situation where non-vets are readily ignored, and the vets get hounded for stupid shit by all the 'big game hunters.' A good specific example is Basterd actually. Remember what happened on our day 1 lynch there WoS? Town sheeped Marv, who was gone for most of day 1. This is not Marv's fault by any means, but imagine how a non-vet feels in that situation. Why even bother trying if the town, like so many other towns, is going to just end up lynching who vet X tells us to? Another random example is Mad Men, from awhile ago (not sure why that suddenly popped in my head lol). Toadesstern as town played the game by making a list of the vets, declaring that some of the vets had to be scum, and then focused on his list to the exclusion of all else. This kind of shit happens around here, and it's not rare. It is not a problem if the rule is that useful shit gets get read, and ignorant stuff gets ignored. The rule around here though is closer to, in my opinion: 'the vets get read, and non-vets don't.' Again, I can't speak much for other people's thought processes, but people honestly should have known that D1 lynch on Vayne in Basterd was fucking terrible. If people were listening to Marv because he's Marv on that then that's their own fault. Why should a non-vet bother trying? Do you think the current 'vets' earned their 'status' through lack of trying? No, they consistently perform in games. If the people who are complaining were/are capable of doing the same thing then it wouldn't BE an issue. Talking about it not being a problem if useful shit gets read and ignorant stuff gets ignored---Ace talked about this specifically, as did Artanis in the Obs QT. The whole problem was there WAS way too much ignorant shit going on in the thread. It's not a coincidence that 'vets' get listened to while others go ignored a lot of the time---it's because they will often be the ones who are talking about the useful shit. That's not a hard and fast rule; I've seen plenty of stupid shit from vets and smart stuff from relative unknowns, but if people aren't willing to look within the thread itself and see how people are acting and what they're talking about and instead base all of their decisions on a visible 'vet' minority then that's their problem. I don't feel I do this and since you seem to be so against it, you probably don't either. How many people in this game actively did it? Another thing to think about was how much of this huge thread was productive discussion? I'd say MAYBE 1/4. Is that a result of lack of veterans to herd the town? I don't believe so but I think it's tough to say either way. | ||
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On July 21 2013 15:29 Ace wrote: 100% agreed on the "vet" status bullshit. Too much of the game is played based on reputation (or meta) and not enough of in-game behavior. I think someone like say Stutters is generally overlooked even though he can be a valuable townie. All because he doesn't (afaik) have a huge reputation. ETA: Also from now on, now you know one of the reasons I try not to post too many reads. I've been saying for years people sheep vets even though we can be wrong. Read some games where one popular guy says "I think X is obvious Town" and watch him/her get treated as confirmed Town by most of the players. I'm torn on this because I have experienced both sides. My first few games I essentially went largely ignored much of the time. Geript knows this. Is it because I played in big normals with a lot of vets or because what I posted wasn't worth reading? Probably some combination of both to be honest. The mindset of vets v non-vets is something that took me a a few games to drop as I eventually developed the confidence to perform on equal footing to those who may have intimidated me or shouted me down previously (equal skill is another thing entirely but irrelevant to what I'm saying right now. I think I still kinda suck). The same cannot necessarily be said for everyone apparently as there are still a lot of people who actively see this divide and are either held back by it or perceive their own lack of performance to be due to such. Again, difficult to tell which it truly is as I have experienced both, and I feel it is somewhat circumstantial. Ace raises a few good points in that the game does need to be played more within the context of that specific game itself and let people prove themselves from game to game; but as we are a community and play many games with each other constantly, this becomes exceedingly difficult. Are there rules that can be set up to combat newbies entering normals and feeling beaten down by players who all know each other? Can we force meta to go ignored in any kind of game other than all-smurf types? I don't believe so. It all comes down to individual attitude and how we play ourselves. Just like SC2/LoL/DotA 2/etc have metas, TL Mafia has a meta, and the meta has relied on meta for too long. I'm personally fairly confident that I have learned not to necessarily consider a veteran's opinion more valid than someone else's, and I could probably learn to rely on other player's past games less. Others may have to do the same, but as far as newer players being beaten down or ignored is concerned, I believe the onus still falls on the players who want to be listened to. I think the current crop of newbies are going to blow a lot of people away to be honest once they start playing, and that will show that individual skill, effort, and confidence are what is required for people to listen to you in mafia. | ||
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WaveofShadow
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There are some 'vet' players I have seen, whether self-proclaimed or status given by others, who do a lot to perpetuate the issue by acting in certain ways in games. I'm not entirely sure how that kind of behaviour can be curbed exactly if it is found to be a contributing factor to the perceived 'vet' problems within the forum. | ||
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On July 22 2013 00:58 Koshi wrote: Thx guys. I am planning to not use the inexperienced card anymore from now on, even though I am a newbie. Let's see where it brings us. I agree to an extend it is a lame way to play the game. Well here's the thing: if you tried to pull the inexperience card now, based on your performance this game you'd probably be lynched.  | ||
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On July 22 2013 08:02 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Wait getmoript and geript are the same person? Getmoript is a hydra smurf of his. We're using it right now in Bluelightz game. | ||
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