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Going to make a case on FirmTofu also as looking over his filter looks scummy also.
On June 24 2013 11:15 FirmTofu wrote:Scum Hunt Day 1:Analysis: Trying to appear friendly with an innocuous greeting. Seems to project an air of insecurity. Preliminary Conclusion: Scum Analysis: Neutral statement of fact. Preliminary Conclusion: Need more information. Analysis: Exudes power with strong capitalization techniques along with a greeting. Preliminary Conclusion: A leader with a powerful role. Analysis: Trying to establish a connection with a player that he has interacted with prior to this game. A metagaming, manipulative sort of move. Preliminary Conclusion: Scummy Analysis: First baseless accusation. As the old chinese proverb states, "He who smelt it, dealt it." Preliminary Conclusion: Scum Suggested Lynch: Chromatically
His first post is nothing, it doesnt promote a good town atmosphere nor does it get anyone to defend themself as the cases are just BS.
As an aside, I would prefer if the accusations remained within the confines of this game and this game only. That is to say, judging people on the differences between their past games and this one is a rather boring way to play the game.
Again this is jsut posting about a discussion we were haveing and posting something on it but not actually giving a good reason. Sorry it is boring is not a legitimate reason to do or not do something in mafia.
As I am about to go to bed, I would like to go ahead and##Vote: fyfy because he is the only person who hasn't spoken yet. Keep your eye on Stim and Meow as well because they are lurking, especially Stim.
As I am about to go to bed, I would like to go ahead and##Vote: fyfy because he is the only person who hasn't spoken yet. Keep your eye on Stim and Meow as well because they are lurking, especially Stim.
Such a wierd choice on who to vote but more on this in a moment.
It wasn't pure spam, and I certainly hoped it would generate discussion. I knew I could not really say anything of substance at that point, so I decided to do something fun that would get people talking. I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. When you look at this post and contrast it to some first few posts, you can clearly see that singling me out as a target is rather silly.
But it was pure spam, when you say it was something fun that means it is spam.
Just because Stim seems scummier than fyfy doesn't mean fyfy shouldn't be voted. I wanted fyfy to talk and I wanted to draw attention to him. That was the reason for my vote. Nothing more, nothing less. We can address Stim now that I am awake.
But why try to get someone who hasnt talked at all to try to talk? Someone who you know has posted and is most likely to post again is a much better choice to pressure, unless of course you dont want them to have to talk more...
I almost agree with everything you said. The problem arises when you realize that the case you've made for aqua is a hell of a lot stronger than the case you've made for Chromatically. Is this something you have overlooked? Or are you deliberately weaving a story to pit town against one another? For the time being, it's hard to tell one way or the other, but I did enjoy reading.
So you agree with almost everything?
Regardless, I see your story as a plausible conspiracy theory, at best. Acting upon it without further evidence is dangerous. Most of your post relies on speculation about the player's true motives.
I agreed with it in the sense that it was a plausible theory, not that it was particularly likely. For the record I have you both pegged as town and I think you are both wasting precious time accusing one another. His conspiracy idea arose mainly because you accused him of being scum. I see his post as a long-winded retaliation against your credibility to ensure that no one bandwagons him to oblivion.
You agree with almost everything but its just plausable and you have town reads on both of them. What a quick backpeddle there, why so fast?
3) You defended fyfy while accusing me of not voting for Stim instead of fyfy. There was no reason to say that when both were perfectly good lurker targets that were largely interchangeable.
But there was a big differance and in no way were they interchangeable as all you have to do is look at the ammount of posts they have had.
3) My point is your reason is stupid. What difference does one line of posting make? Seriously? Accusing me of being scum based on one line that someone else wrote?
It makes a HUGE difference that one line means you know someone has posted and more likely to post again, while you do not know if the other will post or not.
2) For fyfy, I still hold that there is no difference between the lurkers and you claimed that there is a difference. I think your reasons for claiming that there is a difference are stupid and make no sense because only one line separated one from the other. Why do you continue to defend fyfy? It's quite intriguing.
Why do you keep on there is no difference when there is one and spicy wasnt the only one to point it out, with fyfy fliping green this becomes much more relevant.
I would remind everyone of the voting rules.Voting rules:Voting is done in this thread. You cannot PM me your vote.Please vote in the following format: ##Vote: Qatol. Votes not done in the correct fashion may not be counted. Vote counts will be updated whenever intermittently.No conditional voting.You may vote for yourself. You may not vote for anyone dead or outside the game.In the event of a tie the person with the most votes first wins (or loses).You may vote for a No Lynch in the format: ##Vote: No LynchVoting is mandatory. You may NOT abstain.If you do not think Chromatically is scum, then please vote either 1) No lynch or 2) Someone else.In the event of a tie, the person who gets voted up first, dies.
Why post this all it is is fluff and takes up space.
Sounds great! Could you consider looking through Xzavier's filter and reading Chromatically's case against Xzavier and consider voting for him? I would be willing to take you off my scum list if you would do that.
So you are happy at first with my statement what changed?
I concur. The Xzavier lynch didn't actually have the highest chance of flipping scum for me; however, it definitely provided invaluable information that we can use throughout the game. I'm glad to see we agree.
So you blast me for saying I have a better read on alakaslam but not voteing him then when I do vote him I am scum, but you didnt think the xzavier lynch didnt have the highest chance to flip scum? And me saying before the lynch I am ok with either lynch because the xzavier lynch gives town the most information, but when you say the same thing after the lynch that is perfectly ok? REALLY?
I disagree. vigi should shoot the target most likely to flip scum, and that is most definitely Onegu at this point.P.S. I wouldn't mind Spicy either *wink wink*
Directing blue roles is bad and wrong dont do it.
So Alakaslam, if you want to clear yourself in my eyes, you are going to have to vote Onegu. That is the only way I can know for sure that you guys aren't on the same team. If he flips town(which is extremely unlikely), you are cleared of all blame.If he flips scum, you will be scrutinized, but I will take some time to reconsider because you did vote for him.Voting for Onegu is a win-win situation for you if you are town. The only reason you wouldn't vote him would be if you are scum.The ball is in your court.
This is bullying you say if you dont vote how I want you to then you are scum and I will come after you also.
Bullying? I don't see how this is bullying at all. I'm giving him a choice that he can choose to accept or not and I letting him know the consequences of his decision.
If he doesnt make the choice you want him to then there will be consequences is the definition of bullying.
Also, Onegu isn't being pro-town by calling me scummy. He's being anti-town. Almost all of town agrees that I have been one of the most pro-town players this entire game.
Where are these people and I would ask them to look at your filter again and go ahead and say you are one of the most pro-town people in this game.
You have tunneled spicy, xzavier and me and havent done much else other than bully alakaslam andmpost fluff. And when Xzavier flips town you say you didnt even expect him to flip scum.
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I want to apologize for being really bad on day one. This is not me getting emo, that can wait until the end of the game. Because I realized why I was so bad I looked over the thread from a different point of view. As soon as I voted Chromatically any good scum player would of pegged me as being bad, and more importantly they would of seen a way to use my bad play. I made a weak case against two people and I had little chance of getting a majority on either. Regardless of the alignment of those two people, the scum team had an easy way to get a lynch on a townie while also not exposing themselves.
Looking at the thread from this point of view is interesting. It gives me several strong town reads and identifies a cluster of people which I believe contains scum. At least one of the people who voted for Xz is scum, and I am not comfortable that as soon as he flipped green people started a case on Onegu. To be fair the case almost swayed me at first, but after consideration I still have Onegu as town.
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I think Aqua is probably town who made a mistake. I am not as confident in this as my read on Onegu.
While I was really really bad town with many mistakes, Aqua's opening about the policy stuff added fuel to my fire. Not only did it get my attention but it got the attention of several other people who thought Aqua is/was scum. If Aqua is town then that was a mistake. (I am not criticizing, I am trying to learn here).
Without the day 1 policy stuff, there is not a strong enough case on Aqua. His vote on Xz was one of the null reads, since there was a wagon on Aqua he was going to vote on the other wagon regardless. The fact that Aqua was the other wagon is not indicative of scum because my bad play gave the scum an easy way to let us vote on two town wagons.
I don't think that Onegu's above case on Aqua is strong enough at the moment. There are some minor points there, but we have better information at our disposal now.
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I would really prefer us not to end up in an Onegu vs Aqua vote because I think they might both be town, and I am confident that the town can find much better scum reads than either of them.
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On June 26 2013 21:18 hzflank wrote:
I would really prefer us not to end up in an Onegu vs Aqua vote because I think they might both be town, and I am confident that the town can find much better scum reads than either of them.
What about my tofu case?
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On June 26 2013 21:20 Onegu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 21:18 hzflank wrote:
I would really prefer us not to end up in an Onegu vs Aqua vote because I think they might both be town, and I am confident that the town can find much better scum reads than either of them. What about my tofu case?
It's more interesting, but I have only read it once so far. I am doing some more analysis now and will read it again shortly. Trying to make up for my day 1 blunders 
Really though, if you have time read page 18 from when I vote for Aqua through to the end of page 19, then read the bit where Tofu votes for Xz also. That is a goldmine information if we can get our heads around it.
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I think the first half of your case against Tofu should of been made on day one. It's the kind of stuff we were using yesterday when we had less information available. The part about directing blue roles is a bit better, but that could be a town mistake that a new player would make (and we are all new).
I noticed the bully also. Whether this is town or scum depends on who he votes for. If he is planning to vote for you (Onegu) then this is a scummy thing to do. On the other hand, it may of been a trap he was laying for Alakaslam. We dont know because Alakaslam dodged it.
I have also noticed him tunneling Spicy. After the flip I got a 'good town' read on Spicy. To clarify that, I have little reason to see Spicy as scummy at the moment and if Spicy is town then I think he has played a good game and been the most useful of us all. However, I was planning do some analysis of Spicy tomorrow to try to get a stronger read on him.
Your case is reasonable, but I am not willing to put my vote behind it because it contains nothing about the voting and the flip. I do not think we should ignore the voting from day 1.
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Just caught up on the thread from the start of the night post.
@hurricane: i was planning on posting my thoughts on why the aqua vote was bad but i got caught up with my defense of xzavier and then real world work. A quick summary for why i thought it was bad was because xzavier's "case" was weak as already noted, onegu didnt really add much with his vote other than he doesnt like aqua's gut feeling. Nothing felt convincing really. I haven't filter dove aqua yet so ill probably do that day 2.
Your play has stepped up a TON since the time i put my case on you and it has frankly been a lot more townie than i expected.
As for the whole fyfy/stim thing. I've said all along that i thought at the time that stim was a better target as the lurkers werent equal with stim actually posting during the game. Tofu saw them as equal lurkers so thats why we went back and forth on that point.
As for night actions, in past games when i tried directing blues, they didnt listen to me and ended up doing something better so im not going to do it this game.
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On June 26 2013 14:38 Alakaslam wrote:
can we vote in advance at night?
It is sleepy night night time. Go back to your room before your parents catch you out and ground you. There is no voting at night. For further evidence see this picture of you guys
![[image loading]](http://linearranger.com/MMPR-Eps/1-20-08.JPG)
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On June 26 2013 20:01 Aquanim wrote:
@Spicydinosaur: What is your read on FormTofu?
I'll reply to Onegu's above case later, don't have time at the moment.
thought him scummy early on but townie when he defended himself. A few of his posts during the last day though really made me question him.
On June 25 2013 16:35 FirmTofu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2013 15:29 Xzavier wrote:On June 25 2013 15:16 FirmTofu wrote:
Hey Xzavier, what do you think about Spicy? Would you be willing to switch your vote onto him? Honestly not today. he did a really good jpb as town last game and gave some good insights. After going threw his filter it seems like he was forced into a defensive posting pattern due to pressure. he hasnt said much recently. Honestly i wouldnt mind lynching alakazam day 1. But ill giv him a chance to respond. Im really not liking chrom or auqa for their tunnelling me while ignoring logic and basing everything off of the fact that i havnt caught scum yet or made a case. The fact that you are willing to change your vote to Alakazam but not Spicy is rather arbitrary. When facing death, a townie would be willing to change his vote to anyone to stay alive. You have sealed your fate in my eyes with this response and have furthered confirmed my suspicions of Spicy. As it seems very few people agree with my suspicions of Spicy, I will defer to a sub-optimal lynch of you. ##Unvote: SpicyDinosaur##Vote: Xzavier
He tries to use his suspicion of me to justify a vote on xzavier with horrible logic. I already posted a response to this but it got buried so i will cut/paste what i wrote.
The two people who have the most votes are xzavier and aqua. If xzavier wanted to stay alive then he would keep his vote on aqua, otherwise his own chance of being lynched goes up if he takes it off. The fact that he's willing to take his vote OFF of the other major lynch candidate and onto another he thinks is scummy shows that he is scum hunting a little. Though were his vote ultimately ends up is the real indicator.
I also dont get how him not voting for me makes him scummier now. No one else in the thread bought your argument against me, yet Xzavier is the only one to receive your wrath for doing so? It looks like you are trying to make arbitrary reasonings to reinforce your vote like you did with me.
This next post is him setting up his N1/Day 2 play which continues to try and set me up as mafia for defending xzavier. This just feels like he is hedging his bet or knows that xzavier flips town. Also in his "xzavier is town scenario" he precludes any notion that scum were on xzavier. Furthermore he even says that stim is a better lynch target but doesnt vote him and MAKES NO EFFORT TO GET PEOPLE TO SWITCH TO STIM. His following posts are trying to get people to move to xzavier to ensure a lynch.
On June 26 2013 01:03 FirmTofu wrote:
I've skimmed through the thread to get a handle on where people are leaning.
Scenario 1: Xzavier is town
Mafia should be distancing themselves from the lynch and somewhat defending him.
Scenario 2: Xzavier is mafia
Mafia should be vehemently arguing in his defense while also trying to distance themselves from him. It's a balancing act that is hard to do.
Keep an eye out for people who fall into the latter category for now.
On another note, I agree with Hurricane that StiM is the best lynch for today. However, letting Aqua die is simply not an option. We only lynch StiM if we know we can get enough votes.
no effort is made to get people to switch to stim
On June 26 2013 02:23 FirmTofu wrote:
Sounds great! Could you consider looking through Xzavier's filter and reading Chromatically's case against Xzavier and consider voting for him? I would be willing to take you off my scum list if you would do that.
On June 26 2013 02:24 FirmTofu wrote:Shhhhhhhhhhhhhh We are trying to convince him to vote Xzavier, not antagonize and interrogate him.
Furthermore, almost all his posts are focusing on people who DIDNT vote to lynch xzavier. He has a valid point on onegu's apathy and ill filter that separately. But stim, the person who he thought was the scummiest, is no longer mentioned anywhere.
The next quote he continues throwing scum at me by saying i knew xzavier would flip town which of course is a load of bull.
On June 26 2013 12:34 FirmTofu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 12:29 Alakaslam wrote:On June 26 2013 09:49 Spicydinosaur wrote:On June 26 2013 09:27 Chromatically wrote:Your case on Sponge? I have Sponge (and you) as strong town. I didn't much like Sponge's early game policy stuff either, but his recent posting is really townie. Look at page 2-3 of his filter particularly. He's freely offering opinions, posting a lot, interacting with others in a very townie way. Your case only looks at his early posting, but look at his recent posting, because that's where the towniness is. When I said "my case on Xzav", I meant this one: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=417692¤tpage=25#495Has everyone read this?I'm getting the feeling that it was missed. I dont like the vote for the lurker as it seemed an easy cop out. Then his switch to xzavier doesnt help as i think xzavier isnt scum. He has picked up commenting about cases a lot more, but that's to be expected when accused. There was a huge shift in his play style before and after my vote on him. Perhaps he became more active to push the mislynch? I honestly dont know but looking at his filter it just feels scummy. And your new case didnt really add anything new, just commented on xzaviers posts. At this point xzavier is going to be lynched barring some big last minute vote switches. Spicy, work with sponge please. This will lead to town victory. You two (and Onegu) are the most clearheaded in the thread so far, and you've both been right in the face of bandwagon. Learning, learning.... Have you ever stopped to consider that the reason they appear the most "clear headed" is because they know that the flip will be town? You realize that if they know the flip is town, they are scum? I mean, this is common sense. The reason they look smart is because they know people's alignment and can act accordingly. He keeps trying to discredit me and anyone who doesnt vote me is my scum buddy (like he said with xzavier). Look at his case against me, i discredited 1/2 of it and what does he do? change his theory around to fit the new facts. Same goes with xzavier, he claimed we were scum buddies and that justified a vote. He was wrong on me and he was wrong on xzavier. Furthermore i dont like how he tries to set up scenarios before the lynch is over that point right back to me. Going to look at the onegu issue now and post my thoughts on that in a separate post. Scum tell are when you find these leaps in logic that indicate that a logical step in their reasoning assumes certain alignments. You've got to keep looking for these things.
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EBWOP: messed up the quotes at the end: should read as the following
The next quote he continues throwing scum at me by saying i knew xzavier would flip town which of course is a load of bull.
On June 26 2013 12:34 FirmTofu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 12:29 Alakaslam wrote:On June 26 2013 09:49 Spicydinosaur wrote:On June 26 2013 09:27 Chromatically wrote:Your case on Sponge? I have Sponge (and you) as strong town. I didn't much like Sponge's early game policy stuff either, but his recent posting is really townie. Look at page 2-3 of his filter particularly. He's freely offering opinions, posting a lot, interacting with others in a very townie way. Your case only looks at his early posting, but look at his recent posting, because that's where the towniness is. When I said "my case on Xzav", I meant this one: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=417692¤tpage=25#495Has everyone read this?I'm getting the feeling that it was missed. I dont like the vote for the lurker as it seemed an easy cop out. Then his switch to xzavier doesnt help as i think xzavier isnt scum. He has picked up commenting about cases a lot more, but that's to be expected when accused. There was a huge shift in his play style before and after my vote on him. Perhaps he became more active to push the mislynch? I honestly dont know but looking at his filter it just feels scummy. And your new case didnt really add anything new, just commented on xzaviers posts. At this point xzavier is going to be lynched barring some big last minute vote switches. Spicy, work with sponge please. This will lead to town victory. You two (and Onegu) are the most clearheaded in the thread so far, and you've both been right in the face of bandwagon. Learning, learning.... Have you ever stopped to consider that the reason they appear the most "clear headed" is because they know that the flip will be town? You realize that if they know the flip is town, they are scum? I mean, this is common sense. The reason they look smart is because they know people's alignment and can act accordingly. Scum tell are when you find these leaps in logic that indicate that a logical step in their reasoning assumes certain alignments. You've got to keep looking for these things.
He keeps trying to discredit me and anyone who doesnt vote me is my scum buddy (like he said with xzavier). Look at his case against me, i discredited 1/2 of it and what does he do? change his theory around to fit the new facts. Same goes with xzavier, he claimed we were scum buddies and that justified a vote. He was wrong on me and he was wrong on xzavier. Furthermore i dont like how he tries to set up scenarios before the lynch is over that point right back to me.
Going to look at the onegu issue now and post my thoughts on that in a separate post.
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Looking at how the votes went down:
Chromatically votes on Xzavier, who already had one vote from LoneMeow. Aqua and Chrom talk about reads and agree on a scum read on Xzavier. Xzavier votes on Aqua, then Aqua returns the favour.
Lets break this down:
LoneMeow's vote on Xzavier was not a scummy vote. If anything it was a tunnel vote, since Xzavier was his scum read all along. This was early in the day, there was no need to vote to help anyone. If LoneMeow is scum then this is clever setup incase the other scum need to jump on later. Lone was not around at the deadline, so if this was scum setup then they were always going to be stuck on Xzavier. There is no evidence that this is setup by a scum LoneMeow, though.
Next there is some back and forth where Chromatically seems to be looking for consensus from Aqua and Tofu. Chromatically and Aqua both agree that Xzavier is one of theu top two targets (each have a different secondary target). Tofu does not post again for a while so I am going to assume that he is still firmly set on Spicy as his vote target. Aqua makes a mention of a town/null read on LoneMeow.
Xzavier votes on Aqua. Aqua votes on Xzavier. I would of done the same in Aqua's position, but then so would a scum.
I think that this part of the voting looks bad on Chromatically. Due to my earlier tactical mistakes, I had left an opportunity where Chromatically can guarantee two votes (LeonMeow and Aqua) on Xzavier. If Chromatically were scum, he could also get votes (probably 2 more) from the other scum if needed. And if Xzavier flips town then he is not obviously implicated. In addition, my case on Aqua was weak and I lacked conviction and there were other people jumping on Aqua's policy stuff, so it was not even guaranteed that he would need to get all of the other scum on the wagon.
This is not a case on Chrom and if it were he can easily defend it, however Chrom is far from confirmed town in my mind. I hope this is a good example of how badly I fucked up on day 1 and have clever scum ways to lynch town without implicating themselves. I will add more on the later stages of the voting when I can (unless people think this is crap and dont want to read it).
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I don't see either of these "cases" written by Onegu as real cases at all. All I see is random sniping at isolated posts in my and FirmTofu, often taken completely out of context. I don't see any actual explanation of what makes any of this stuff scum-indicative. I'll reply to a few of these to illustrate my point, but I don't see the point in replying to all of them.
Show nested quote +
It is even better to vote for people who have posted some stuff but haven't been useful, since you'll probably get a reaction out of them (and others) which will help you find scum. Voting a lurker doesn't accomplish much at this point in the day.
Actually pressureing people who lurk at that point in time is one of the best things we can do because again makeing people interact is pro town allowing for lurkers at this point lets it be ok for scum to lurk also because there will be no pressure to post and give up information. So why defend lurking here?
Again, if you actually read my post I am not defending lurking. I am saying that one can bring out more information in the thread by voting someone who is actually present than by voting a lurker, which is a statement of fact. If a lurker isn't actually available they can't post and so pressuring them accomplishes nothing. If somebody is in the thread, but saying nothing of value, THEN you pressure them.
Show nested quote +
Meta in newbies is of limited usefulness, particularly for assessing scuminess directly - people's scumgames could change dramatically. However, if someone has demonstrated a capability for making cases/scumhunting/not being utterly useless/etc. there is no reason why that capability should disappear. I won't magically choose to start playing worse just for the sake of changing my playstyle.I am making the point that I can and will make cases to justify my vote when necessary, which I can prove by citing previous games.
You cant use meta to prove your case. You even say it is only limited in usefullness but you will use it to prove your case, sorry it doesnt work that way. And it does dissapear just look at xzavier this game compared to last game he was town both games but played much different this game and he played worse this game. Useing something that has almost no usefullness in a newbie game to prove something is scummy.
If you look at my post in context I was using MY previous meta to say that I can and will make cases when the need arises. This IS a valid use of my meta.
I have made cases in the past; therefore, I am capable of making cases.
It's a direct, logical proof. There is NO WAY in which this is wrong or scummy.
And again, my read on Xzavier was NOT strongly dependent on his play in previous games. From my perspective, his play in this game deserved to be lynched on its own merits.
I do keep having to repeat myself when I talk to you...
Show nested quote +Lastly, who says scum play has to be finely calculated? He said himself he was pressed for time - there's no reason why that shouldn't negatively impact the quality of his planning and calculation if he's scum. This actually seems like you are covering for scum teammates who aren't playing calculated.
I don't think there's any reason to believe I'm covering for anyone besides wild speculation on your part. The subject of this statement was Xzavier, who flipped town. Who would I even be covering for?
Show nested quote +
There's a pattern here of wanting not to lynch people based on their strong play in previous games... which has absolutely no relevance to this game. Could be a side-effect of him not having time to read this thread properly, but not wanting to commit to anything relevant to this game is characteristic of scum.
He says this is a characteristic of scum but he contridicts himself here when he talks about past meta and useing it to prove his cases, because you can be useful in a previous game and not useful in this game but that doesnt automaticly make you scum.
There's a difference between my argument and the one Xzavier was using.
My argument: Xzavier was useful in a previous game and isn't being useful here, in a way that indicates scumminess. This is an indication that he is scum, so we should lynch him.
Xzavier's argument: Spicy and I were useful in a previous game, you should leave us alive because I might be useful later.
However, somebody's good play in a different game doesn't make them any townier in this one by extension. Xzavier's argument made absolutely no sense, whereas mine did.
Show nested quote +
Like I said, a Vigilante is unlikely to be mislynched since he can claim, and the odds of him being shot are relatively low. A Vigilante is likely to be alive in the next night phase, and being able to take a shot when there is more information to decide a target is a good thing.
Why put the claim part in here, so you want the NN and Vig to claim? Blues claiming this early is the worst possible thing for town, scum already have more information than us why give them more? Also I really dont like directing blue actions especially in a noob game that is what coaches are for, also there is a great guide on teamliquid forum about vig role and who and when to shoot, we dont need to tell them who or when to shoot, have confidance they will figure out the right thing to do.
1) I have no idea why you're bringing up the NN in relation to this
2) If you'd actually read my post and understood it I'm saying that the vigilante claim is only in the case that he is about to be lynched. What makes you think I want the vigilante to claim now? I never said anything of the sort.
3) What about this post is more "directing" blue actions than the posts I was replying to? Directing blue actions is as a general rule bad I agree, but what I said does not benefit scum to know in any way and was important for the vigilante to know. It is important to consider the specific case rather than applying blanket rules.
4) I don't have any way to know that anyone else in this game has read any guides (as I recall the guide, it doesn't talk about this particular situation anyway) or is talking to their coach.
Show nested quote +
I'm not reading filters at the moment, I'm living the rest of my life and occasionally checking the thread to see if anything interesting pops up.
So you are bleimeing people for not seriously scumhunting when you arent doing it yourself?
Do you seriously expect me to be playing the game and reading into everyone 24/7? Are you bloody serious? I can't even fathom why you think this is noteworthy, unusual or scummy.
I'm not sure if I kept these points in order, and I didn't reply to all of them, but frankly I'm bored of repeating myself.
In short, Onegu's case on me is largely speculation as to possible (and in some cases, unlikely) scum motivations which some of the things I've said could conceivably have. Again, I don't see any reasons why what I've done (or what FirmTofu has done) are definitely scum-motivated.
These cases read to me like Onegu is trying to pull something together to justify his predetermined scumreads, rather than determining his scumreads by the quality of the cases he can present (which is obviously an awful plan from a town perspective). I still don't know that he's scum for it (townies do the daftest things) but if he is scum I would be disgusted to lose to this play.
I honestly don't think he understands my posts and arguments at all. Whether that's because he's incapable/lazy as town, or incapable/lazy/deliberately obtuse as scum, I'm not sure at this point.
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@Aqua: Do you realize how many negative little posts you made about Onegu on day 1? If you are town then this is a good reason for someone to start a wagon on Onegu on day 2, because you were on the wrong wagon on day 1 and it looks like someone can easily get you on Onegu's wagon on day 2. Then you get outed on on the day 3 lylo and the scum get an easy win. If you are town, I would suggest you make yourself very sure of Onegu's guilt before you jump on his wagon, because I think that you are being played.
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On June 26 2013 22:55 Aquanim wrote:I don't see either of these "cases" written by Onegu as real cases at all. All I see is random sniping at isolated posts in my and FirmTofu, often taken completely out of context. I don't see any actual explanation of what makes any of this stuff scum-indicative. I'll reply to a few of these to illustrate my point, but I don't see the point in replying to all of them. Show nested quote +
It is even better to vote for people who have posted some stuff but haven't been useful, since you'll probably get a reaction out of them (and others) which will help you find scum. Voting a lurker doesn't accomplish much at this point in the day.
Actually pressureing people who lurk at that point in time is one of the best things we can do because again makeing people interact is pro town allowing for lurkers at this point lets it be ok for scum to lurk also because there will be no pressure to post and give up information. So why defend lurking here? Again, if you actually read my post I am not defending lurking. I am saying that one can bring out more information in the thread by voting someone who is actually present than by voting a lurker, which is a statement of fact. If a lurker isn't actually available they can't post and so pressuring them accomplishes nothing. If somebody is in the thread, but saying nothing of value, THEN you pressure them. Show nested quote +
Meta in newbies is of limited usefulness, particularly for assessing scuminess directly - people's scumgames could change dramatically. However, if someone has demonstrated a capability for making cases/scumhunting/not being utterly useless/etc. there is no reason why that capability should disappear. I won't magically choose to start playing worse just for the sake of changing my playstyle.I am making the point that I can and will make cases to justify my vote when necessary, which I can prove by citing previous games.
You cant use meta to prove your case. You even say it is only limited in usefullness but you will use it to prove your case, sorry it doesnt work that way. And it does dissapear just look at xzavier this game compared to last game he was town both games but played much different this game and he played worse this game. Useing something that has almost no usefullness in a newbie game to prove something is scummy. If you look at my post in context I was using MY previous meta to say that I can and will make cases when the need arises. This IS a valid use of my meta. I have made cases in the past; therefore, I am capable of making cases. It's a direct, logical proof. There is NO WAY in which this is wrong or scummy. And again, my read on Xzavier was NOT strongly dependent on his play in previous games. From my perspective, his play in this game deserved to be lynched on its own merits. I do keep having to repeat myself when I talk to you... Show nested quote +Lastly, who says scum play has to be finely calculated? He said himself he was pressed for time - there's no reason why that shouldn't negatively impact the quality of his planning and calculation if he's scum. This actually seems like you are covering for scum teammates who aren't playing calculated. I don't think there's any reason to believe I'm covering for anyone besides wild speculation on your part. The subject of this statement was Xzavier, who flipped town. Who would I even be covering for? Show nested quote +
There's a pattern here of wanting not to lynch people based on their strong play in previous games... which has absolutely no relevance to this game. Could be a side-effect of him not having time to read this thread properly, but not wanting to commit to anything relevant to this game is characteristic of scum.
He says this is a characteristic of scum but he contridicts himself here when he talks about past meta and useing it to prove his cases, because you can be useful in a previous game and not useful in this game but that doesnt automaticly make you scum. There's a difference between my argument and the one Xzavier was using. My argument: Xzavier was useful in a previous game and isn't being useful here, in a way that indicates scumminess. This is an indication that he is scum, so we should lynch him. Xzavier's argument: Spicy and I were useful in a previous game, you should leave us alive because I might be useful later. However, somebody's good play in a different game doesn't make them any townier in this one by extension. Xzavier's argument made absolutely no sense, whereas mine did. Show nested quote +
Like I said, a Vigilante is unlikely to be mislynched since he can claim, and the odds of him being shot are relatively low. A Vigilante is likely to be alive in the next night phase, and being able to take a shot when there is more information to decide a target is a good thing.
Why put the claim part in here, so you want the NN and Vig to claim? Blues claiming this early is the worst possible thing for town, scum already have more information than us why give them more? Also I really dont like directing blue actions especially in a noob game that is what coaches are for, also there is a great guide on teamliquid forum about vig role and who and when to shoot, we dont need to tell them who or when to shoot, have confidance they will figure out the right thing to do. 1) I have no idea why you're bringing up the NN in relation to this 2) If you'd actually read my post and understood it I'm saying that the vigilante claim is only in the case that he is about to be lynched. What makes you think I want the vigilante to claim now? I never said anything of the sort. 3) What about this post is more "directing" blue actions than the posts I was replying to? Directing blue actions is as a general rule bad I agree, but what I said does not benefit scum to know in any way and was important for the vigilante to know. It is important to consider the specific case rather than applying blanket rules. 4) I don't have any way to know that anyone else in this game has read any guides (as I recall the guide, it doesn't talk about this particular situation anyway) or is talking to their coach. Show nested quote +
I'm not reading filters at the moment, I'm living the rest of my life and occasionally checking the thread to see if anything interesting pops up.
So you are bleimeing people for not seriously scumhunting when you arent doing it yourself? Do you seriously expect me to be playing the game and reading into everyone 24/7? Are you bloody serious? I can't even fathom why you think this is noteworthy, unusual or scummy. I'm not sure if I kept these points in order, and I didn't reply to all of them, but frankly I'm bored of repeating myself. In short, Onegu's case on me is largely speculation as to possible (and in some cases, unlikely) scum motivations which some of the things I've said could conceivably have. Again, I don't see any reasons why what I've done (or what FirmTofu has done) are definitely scum-motivated. These cases read to me like Onegu is trying to pull something together to justify his predetermined scumreads, rather than determining his scumreads by the quality of the cases he can present (which is obviously an awful plan from a town perspective). I still don't know that he's scum for it (townies do the daftest things) but if he is scum I would be disgusted to lose to this play. I honestly don't think he understands my posts and arguments at all. Whether that's because he's incapable/lazy as town, or incapable/lazy/deliberately obtuse as scum, I'm not sure at this point.
Ok your case isnt that good and if I would have looked at firmtofu's case first I most likely would have not posted yours but from before xzavier flipped town I felt you were scum and I knew I was going to make a case on you after he flipped town, I think there are still a few good points but I looked a little harder than I should have because I had said if xzavier flipped town I would come after you.
That being said my case on firmtofu is good and has alot of correct points. And I believe he is scum. And I will address a few things on that on my next post.
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On June 26 2013 23:14 hzflank wrote:
@Aqua: Do you realize how many negative little posts you made about Onegu on day 1? If you are town then this is a good reason for someone to start a wagon on Onegu on day 2, because you were on the wrong wagon on day 1 and it looks like someone can easily get you on Onegu's wagon on day 2. Then you get outed on on the day 3 lylo and the scum get an easy win. If you are town, I would suggest you make yourself very sure of Onegu's guilt before you jump on his wagon, because I think that you are being played.
Believe me, I'm not anyone's patsy. I read Xzavier's filter myself and came to my own conclusions. I'll do the same for any prospective wagon on Onegu.
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On June 26 2013 21:52 hzflank wrote:
I think the first half of your case against Tofu should of been made on day one. It's the kind of stuff we were using yesterday when we had less information available. The part about directing blue roles is a bit better, but that could be a town mistake that a new player would make (and we are all new).
I noticed the bully also. Whether this is town or scum depends on who he votes for. If he is planning to vote for you (Onegu) then this is a scummy thing to do. On the other hand, it may of been a trap he was laying for Alakaslam. We dont know because Alakaslam dodged it.
I have also noticed him tunneling Spicy. After the flip I got a 'good town' read on Spicy. To clarify that, I have little reason to see Spicy as scummy at the moment and if Spicy is town then I think he has played a good game and been the most useful of us all. However, I was planning do some analysis of Spicy tomorrow to try to get a stronger read on him.
Your case is reasonable, but I am not willing to put my vote behind it because it contains nothing about the voting and the flip. I do not think we should ignore the voting from day 1.
It shouldn't matter when it was posted the information is still relevant. The bully was directed at me he tunneled me for a while then when alakaslam defended me he bullied him to vote me. And he is still tunneling spicy also saying he doesnt mind a vigi shot on me or spicy. And it does cover the flip where he says Xzavier didnt have the highest chance to flip scum for him. But it also shows how he was happy I wouldnt vote for Aqua and would help the xzavier vote pass.
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Yeah, I meant that he could of been bullying Alaka to secure his vote against you, or he could of been trying to explore a read he had on Alaka.
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Few thoughts on Onegu: I'll try not to repeat what others have said for the sake of spamming the thread.
About his apathy claim between xzavier and aqua: I don't get why he said this as it makes 0 sense from either a town or scum perspective as his vote wasnt even on one of them. What i find more interesting is that regardless of the lynch, he will not be voting for Alakaslam next day. He claimed that if xzavier flips town, aqua gets voted, and if he flips scum, i get voted. What happened to Alakaslam?
His Aqua case: He seems to be tunneling aqua now (again?) with an updated case. A lot of it seems very nit picky. but i still come back to one thought... What about Alakaslam? I understand that reads change over time, but onegu went from voting aqua to alakaslam and now back to focusing on aqua. Why isnt alakaslam a priority target now? Unless i missed a post buried in the 6 pages of thread i caught up on.
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On June 26 2013 23:14 hzflank wrote:
@Aqua: Do you realize how many negative little posts you made about Onegu on day 1? If you are town then this is a good reason for someone to start a wagon on Onegu on day 2, because you were on the wrong wagon on day 1 and it looks like someone can easily get you on Onegu's wagon on day 2. Then you get outed on on the day 3 lylo and the scum get an easy win. If you are town, I would suggest you make yourself very sure of Onegu's guilt before you jump on his wagon, because I think that you are being played.
Any talk of D2 lynches is dangerous as scum can easily redirect night actions. Posting cases and thoughts are fine, but anything that resembles "as soon as d2 post is up my vote is on x" should be avoided.
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EPT
