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Im not convinced on the aqua vote either and ill post my thoughts on that later, but for now i want to get this out.
##Vote:Hurricane Sponge
The case:
Hurricane starts off with a big wall of text that was written pregame that mostly didnt tell us anything. It gave a summary of the roles and a whole lot of fluff. Plus he wanted the NN to claim already which was a horrible idea. Some found this useful but it really didnt tell us anything new.
On June 24 2013 11:46 Hurricane Sponge wrote:
Ugh, let's avoid the 'should we lynch lurkers talk' shall we?
I'm gonna go ahead and post the play I had written earlier this week analyzing this game from a pro-town perspective. If any of my analysis is off-base, please jump in and steer me back on track.
Pre-written segment starts now:
Alright, chums. First let me state that in NO WAY is the following message a call for a mass claim. If you are the Parity Cop (assuming you even exist), DO NOT SAY SO. In fact, if you're our town's parity cop, it's probably better if you appear to ignore what I'm about to say completely. Same goes for Trackers and Watchers. DO NOT CLAIM. But read carefully, because you are a big part of whether we succeed or fail (whether we follow my plan or not).
Now everyone, pay attention: Looking over the roles, the extremely juicy pro-town potential jumped right off the page at me, as I hope it did to many of you. Trackers can tell us if a person visits someone. Pretty good, but not nearly as good as the Watcher, who can pick a person and sees all who visit them. Obviously, this means we can try to guess the guy who's going to be mafia-killed, and we have a couple shots at seeing if he either gets visited, or manage to Track the mafia member who happens to be tagged to do the deed. Not great odds on either, but still better than nothing.
My plan utilizes each role to their maximum potential. Because we are not guaranteed to have a Tracker, Watcher, or even a Parity Cop, it's important that for the roles we DO get, we use them efficiently. The Watcher needs to guess the target they think will be mafia-killed tonight. This is up to your judgement, but I'll make a recommendation later today.
The fun part comes with the Tracker and the Nosy Neighbor (and by extension Parity Cop). The Tracker should secretly track the Nosy Neighbor. AGAIN, MR. OR MRS. TRACKER: DO NOT CLAIM NOW. If we have a Nosy Neighbor, they should claim IMMEDIATELY. Once the Tracker can confirm that the Nosy Neighbor is in fact moving around at night, but not visiting the person who got Mafia-killed, WE CAN ESTABLISH HIM AS TOWN. This is a big deal. The Parity Cop can then tag the confirmed Nosy Neighbor as Town and start measuring up suspects against them. If he gets a 'Different' claim, the other person is Scum. If he gets 'Same', they are town.
I can elaborate further, but I feel like you can all piece together whatever holes are out there without me holding your hand even further. This is an extremely pro-town set-up (assuming there aren't a bunch of red herrings in which case, Hi I'm sponge, and I just gave you all the book on me.) and I'd like to move fast before mafia can organize their thoughts in their private little forum. If we move fast, and force independent action, they lose one of their many advantages.
Next he is prompted to makes a couple of cases against me and xzavier based off of only a few posts. I already disagreed with his reasons for me but he made a couple good points about xzavier.
The problem is that this is his only scum hunting for the entire game. From this point forward all he talks about concerns the NN. He makes no new effort to ask questions about cases or constructs his own. It feels as though he made a quick early contribution with hunting and then hoped to sail the rest of D1 without truly contributing.
His remaining posts are mostly just rehashing and talking about the NN issue. His last post (as of this posting) is reposted below.
On June 24 2013 17:55 Hurricane Sponge wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2013 16:26 Aquanim wrote:On June 24 2013 16:09 FirmTofu wrote:
I know Aquanim wanted me to comment on Chromatically, but I would rather address his suggestion to have the NN roleclaim.
Let's have a look at how a roleclaim would play out for scum and town separately so it is easier to visualize.
Event: NN roleclaims
Scum Information Set: Know who the NN is with a rather high degree of certainty
Town Information Set: Could be an NN or could be scum faking NN. Learn absolutely nothing.
Just based on the information that each side gains, we can see that scum takes a clear lead instantaneously. They will choose to avoid the NN if they have a Tracker and can proceed to eliminate one person from the long list of priority targets.
Town remains confused as to the NN's alignment and ends up in a shitty situation.
If you can find a way to resolve this issue, Aquanim, I would love to hear it. Otherwise, I have you pegged as scum. First, scum is unlikely to claim NN day 1 for fear of being counter-claimed. Somebody who claims NN is obviously not confirmed town, but they're considerably more likely to be town. I have personally never seen a day-one miller claim (analogous to a NN, with different investigative rolls) end up being scum, and plenty end up being town. A miller/NN who is thus likely town and can thus play a strong, town-leading role is a HIGHER PRIORITY for scum to kill than a possible bluesnipe. Also, a day-one NN claim avoids two possibly disastrous situations later on: 1) An actual NN being seen visiting someone and being lynched for it. 2) Mafia fake-claiming NN after being seen visiting somebody. Auto-lynching any NN claim is bad for in the first case, treating NN as town is bad in the second case. A day one claim, before there's any desperate need for a scum to fake-claim it, fixes both of these. The gain in information which scum gets from a day-one NN claim IS NOT SIGNIFICANT. Even IF scum has a tracker, a NN claim reduces their pool of players to track by something like 10% (I haven't done the math but it's about that). And like I said, if the NN plays a good town game he becomes EVEN MORE IMPORTANT for scum to shoot. Scum knowing not to track the NN is less valuable than town knowing not to track him. I'm tired of trying to beat sense into y'all about this, and I'm tired of y'all calling me scum over a difference of opinion about game theory. Someone man up and vote me over this trash or start playing the game properly.On June 24 2013 16:15 Onegu wrote:On June 24 2013 16:09 FirmTofu wrote:
I know Aquanim wanted me to comment on Chromatically, but I would rather address his suggestion to have the NN roleclaim.
Let's have a look at how a roleclaim would play out for scum and town separately so it is easier to visualize.
Event: NN roleclaims
Scum Information Set: Know who the NN is with a rather high degree of certainty
Town Information Set: Could be an NN or could be scum faking NN. Learn absolutely nothing.
Just based on the information that each side gains, we can see that scum takes a clear lead instantaneously. They will choose to avoid the NN if they have a Tracker and can proceed to eliminate one person from the long list of priority targets.
Town remains confused as to the NN's alignment and ends up in a shitty situation.
If you can find a way to resolve this issue, Aquanim, I would love to hear it. Otherwise, I have you pegged as scum. I agree with this the first person who wrote about NN made me feel noob town, but the second person to post after hearing what was said against it is very odd/scummy. The other guy's plan was bad for other reasons. In this case, however, I am right, the rest of you are wrong, and I am trying to persuade you of that. I'm starting to feel like this is a waste of time though. My case. On Chromatically. Opinions please. I'll drop the whole NN thing if people feel like we're getting off-track with it, but it seems like we're in a holding pattern while we wait for inactives to defend themselves. Regarding the NN Claim: This is a part of the game I clearly don't understand the far-reaching implications of. Addressing point #2, specifically: "Mafia fake-claiming NN after being seen visiting somebody. A day one claim, before there's any desperate need for a scum to fake-claim it, fixes (this)." Is the value of preventing a mafia NN claim later in the game more than the benefit of having a real NN around to counter-claim it in the moment, catching the scum in the act? (This assumes the remaining townies have pegged the real NN as more town than the first claimant). Do not get discouraged- I would like to hear your thoughts on this subject, and it's important to emphasize that people make up their own minds on this matter as there is likely at least 1 scum trying to steer public opinion in the 'wrong' direction on this issue. You seem to have already convinced FirmTofu, and this is the kind of matter we can get Town Consensus on now in the early game.
Here hurricane senses that he's dragging out the NN talk for too long but then double downs on it by encouraging others to continue the discussion. This feels like scum trying to get others to continue on the conversation without him having to post more.
Furthemore in the above quote that hurricane quotes, aqua asks for thoughts on his chrom case, yet he passes over the opportunity to give his opinions out. I feel he is just waiting to see how wagons are rolling before he places his opinion down in the safest place possible.
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Also, if you want to use the "easy wagons are mislynches" principle, Aqua is for sure town. A large number of people voted him with no reasoning when he was contributing more than a lot of them.
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##Vote: Aquanim
Gosh, this is so bandwagoning.. Will elaborate in couple of hours.
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.. just read Chromatically's post above my. Man, I nail some fucking great timing..
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If 'gut feelings' are the order of the day, I suppose I'll offer mine. I caught up on the thread with the mentality that this is about the time the mafia would be making their Day 1 case in earnest. I prepared myself to view all upcoming bandwagons with the suspicion that one will be scum-backed. That's the only explanation I can think of for the Aqua bandwagon. I don't agree with the cases stated against him. I see a man who had a contrary opinion to the thread sentiment and brought it up clearly and concisely because he thought his way was the correct path for the town. He defended it when pressured, but didn't try to derail the entire thread and incorporated scum-hunting into these posts.
Additionally, I don't support the Alakaslam bandwagon because even though I think his random vote on Aqua is a mistake, he honestly just seems like an overwhelmed dude. Any alignment reads are sort of moot because his language and train of thought are too erratic for me to read. If I didn't have any scum reads and wasn't convinced by any of the outstanding cases, however, I could theoretically justify voting for Alakaslam because he seems resigned to being lynched Day 1, and a broken player at this juncture isn't as drastic a loss as someone who has been actively scumhunting and bringing coherent thoughts into the thread.
Xzavier is really disappointing thus far this game. He was so passionate and eloquent in the last game, and now his syntax and content have plummeted. It's interesting to me that he promised to be more useful on Day 2, but his posting doesn't add up. I don't see the mafia trying to bandwagon him at this point, but I have a theory on Xzavier that I'd like to keep to myself barring a close vote involving him for now.
I feel confident that given everyone's level of posting, my unease with StimAddict is fully justified. Regardless of how you feel about Meta Cases, I present The Case For Stim:
- Stim was very active in the pre-game, posting 10 times on 4 different days
- He posted 20 minutes before the game started (implying a certain level of enthusiasm for this game)
- Stim was so eager to game that he brought in a friend who needed to make a brand new account on the site (user name: 'I am a pedophile') to get this game started, again implying a certain level of enthusiasm to start
- Stim posted one of the inaugural useless opener posts ('so it begins...') just minutes after the initial Day One post went live
I have thus demonstrated that Stim was excited, eager, available and willing to play this game.
- Stim has not posted since these pre-game / introductory posts
This sets off alarm bells for me. I'm not making a case to lynch a lurker because he's lurking. I'm making a case to lynch STIM SPECIFICALLY because he is lurking. The fact that he happens to be the only true lurker is coincidental for my case. This is a man who was extremely excited to play this game. I was also very excited, and wouldn't be able to contain my enthusiasm if I tried. Indeed, I couldn't help but post actively during the first 12 hours, getting the adrenaline out of my system. This makes me think that Stim is also being active. He is being active in the mafia mini-forum. Or he's being active by game-planning with his SK coach.
Furthermore:
- In his previous game, Stim came out first-post-firing with a gigantic case on someone he suspected to be scum. Stim was very convinced, going as far to demand that the Vigilante use his shot on his target when he failed to secure the lynch on Day 1.
- After the subject of his case flipped town on Day 2, Stim fell into a pit of despair, and attempted to vote on himself for the Day 3 lynch despite being a townie (One could argue that this strategy would only be viable as a Hail Mary for a scum player. There's no real reason to do what he did as town)
I get the feeling that as a player, Stim is in it to make 'Big Plays', and (unintentionally) does not have the best interest of the town at heart. I feel confident in this behavioral analysis because it is a trait that I also struggle with (See: my opening call for a plan of action. See: this post, trying to lead a lynch on someone that no one else has even remotely expressed serious interest in lynching)
If Stim swoops in with another large case on someone before the deadline, I will rethink my vote. But for now, he's just floating by bringing zero content to the game and the town. Hell, I hate the spamming, but at least they're getting people to talk (even if it's just 'Stop Spamming, jerk'). I want the serious conversation to lynch Stim to start happening now so it has some time to gain momentum before he posts his inevitable 'Wow, work has been crazy, these time zones lol, english is my second language, so here's my random #vote on whoever my scumbuddies told me to okay bye' 10 minutes before the deadline.
Reference materials:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=412757
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=412757&user=StiMaDDict&view=all
##vote StiMaDDict
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EBOP: WOW we all have some PHENOMENAL timing, eh?!
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On June 25 2013 23:56 Spicydinosaur wrote:Im not convinced on the aqua vote either and ill post my thoughts on that later, but for now i want to get this out. ##Vote:Hurricane SpongeThe case: Hurricane starts off with a big wall of text that was written pregame that mostly didnt tell us anything. It gave a summary of the roles and a whole lot of fluff. Plus he wanted the NN to claim already which was a horrible idea. Some found this useful but it really didnt tell us anything new. Show nested quote +On June 24 2013 11:46 Hurricane Sponge wrote:
Ugh, let's avoid the 'should we lynch lurkers talk' shall we?
I'm gonna go ahead and post the play I had written earlier this week analyzing this game from a pro-town perspective. If any of my analysis is off-base, please jump in and steer me back on track.
Pre-written segment starts now:
Alright, chums. First let me state that in NO WAY is the following message a call for a mass claim. If you are the Parity Cop (assuming you even exist), DO NOT SAY SO. In fact, if you're our town's parity cop, it's probably better if you appear to ignore what I'm about to say completely. Same goes for Trackers and Watchers. DO NOT CLAIM. But read carefully, because you are a big part of whether we succeed or fail (whether we follow my plan or not).
Now everyone, pay attention: Looking over the roles, the extremely juicy pro-town potential jumped right off the page at me, as I hope it did to many of you. Trackers can tell us if a person visits someone. Pretty good, but not nearly as good as the Watcher, who can pick a person and sees all who visit them. Obviously, this means we can try to guess the guy who's going to be mafia-killed, and we have a couple shots at seeing if he either gets visited, or manage to Track the mafia member who happens to be tagged to do the deed. Not great odds on either, but still better than nothing.
My plan utilizes each role to their maximum potential. Because we are not guaranteed to have a Tracker, Watcher, or even a Parity Cop, it's important that for the roles we DO get, we use them efficiently. The Watcher needs to guess the target they think will be mafia-killed tonight. This is up to your judgement, but I'll make a recommendation later today.
The fun part comes with the Tracker and the Nosy Neighbor (and by extension Parity Cop). The Tracker should secretly track the Nosy Neighbor. AGAIN, MR. OR MRS. TRACKER: DO NOT CLAIM NOW. If we have a Nosy Neighbor, they should claim IMMEDIATELY. Once the Tracker can confirm that the Nosy Neighbor is in fact moving around at night, but not visiting the person who got Mafia-killed, WE CAN ESTABLISH HIM AS TOWN. This is a big deal. The Parity Cop can then tag the confirmed Nosy Neighbor as Town and start measuring up suspects against them. If he gets a 'Different' claim, the other person is Scum. If he gets 'Same', they are town.
I can elaborate further, but I feel like you can all piece together whatever holes are out there without me holding your hand even further. This is an extremely pro-town set-up (assuming there aren't a bunch of red herrings in which case, Hi I'm sponge, and I just gave you all the book on me.) and I'd like to move fast before mafia can organize their thoughts in their private little forum. If we move fast, and force independent action, they lose one of their many advantages. Next he is prompted to makes a couple of cases against me and xzavier based off of only a few posts. I already disagreed with his reasons for me but he made a couple good points about xzavier. The problem is that this is his only scum hunting for the entire game. From this point forward all he talks about concerns the NN. He makes no new effort to ask questions about cases or constructs his own. It feels as though he made a quick early contribution with hunting and then hoped to sail the rest of D1 without truly contributing. His remaining posts are mostly just rehashing and talking about the NN issue. His last post (as of this posting) is reposted below. Show nested quote +On June 24 2013 17:55 Hurricane Sponge wrote:On June 24 2013 16:26 Aquanim wrote:On June 24 2013 16:09 FirmTofu wrote:
I know Aquanim wanted me to comment on Chromatically, but I would rather address his suggestion to have the NN roleclaim.
Let's have a look at how a roleclaim would play out for scum and town separately so it is easier to visualize.
Event: NN roleclaims
Scum Information Set: Know who the NN is with a rather high degree of certainty
Town Information Set: Could be an NN or could be scum faking NN. Learn absolutely nothing.
Just based on the information that each side gains, we can see that scum takes a clear lead instantaneously. They will choose to avoid the NN if they have a Tracker and can proceed to eliminate one person from the long list of priority targets.
Town remains confused as to the NN's alignment and ends up in a shitty situation.
If you can find a way to resolve this issue, Aquanim, I would love to hear it. Otherwise, I have you pegged as scum. First, scum is unlikely to claim NN day 1 for fear of being counter-claimed. Somebody who claims NN is obviously not confirmed town, but they're considerably more likely to be town. I have personally never seen a day-one miller claim (analogous to a NN, with different investigative rolls) end up being scum, and plenty end up being town. A miller/NN who is thus likely town and can thus play a strong, town-leading role is a HIGHER PRIORITY for scum to kill than a possible bluesnipe. Also, a day-one NN claim avoids two possibly disastrous situations later on: 1) An actual NN being seen visiting someone and being lynched for it. 2) Mafia fake-claiming NN after being seen visiting somebody. Auto-lynching any NN claim is bad for in the first case, treating NN as town is bad in the second case. A day one claim, before there's any desperate need for a scum to fake-claim it, fixes both of these. The gain in information which scum gets from a day-one NN claim IS NOT SIGNIFICANT. Even IF scum has a tracker, a NN claim reduces their pool of players to track by something like 10% (I haven't done the math but it's about that). And like I said, if the NN plays a good town game he becomes EVEN MORE IMPORTANT for scum to shoot. Scum knowing not to track the NN is less valuable than town knowing not to track him. I'm tired of trying to beat sense into y'all about this, and I'm tired of y'all calling me scum over a difference of opinion about game theory. Someone man up and vote me over this trash or start playing the game properly.On June 24 2013 16:15 Onegu wrote:On June 24 2013 16:09 FirmTofu wrote:
I know Aquanim wanted me to comment on Chromatically, but I would rather address his suggestion to have the NN roleclaim.
Let's have a look at how a roleclaim would play out for scum and town separately so it is easier to visualize.
Event: NN roleclaims
Scum Information Set: Know who the NN is with a rather high degree of certainty
Town Information Set: Could be an NN or could be scum faking NN. Learn absolutely nothing.
Just based on the information that each side gains, we can see that scum takes a clear lead instantaneously. They will choose to avoid the NN if they have a Tracker and can proceed to eliminate one person from the long list of priority targets.
Town remains confused as to the NN's alignment and ends up in a shitty situation.
If you can find a way to resolve this issue, Aquanim, I would love to hear it. Otherwise, I have you pegged as scum. I agree with this the first person who wrote about NN made me feel noob town, but the second person to post after hearing what was said against it is very odd/scummy. The other guy's plan was bad for other reasons. In this case, however, I am right, the rest of you are wrong, and I am trying to persuade you of that. I'm starting to feel like this is a waste of time though. My case. On Chromatically. Opinions please. I'll drop the whole NN thing if people feel like we're getting off-track with it, but it seems like we're in a holding pattern while we wait for inactives to defend themselves. Regarding the NN Claim: This is a part of the game I clearly don't understand the far-reaching implications of. Addressing point #2, specifically: "Mafia fake-claiming NN after being seen visiting somebody. A day one claim, before there's any desperate need for a scum to fake-claim it, fixes (this)." Is the value of preventing a mafia NN claim later in the game more than the benefit of having a real NN around to counter-claim it in the moment, catching the scum in the act? (This assumes the remaining townies have pegged the real NN as more town than the first claimant). Do not get discouraged- I would like to hear your thoughts on this subject, and it's important to emphasize that people make up their own minds on this matter as there is likely at least 1 scum trying to steer public opinion in the 'wrong' direction on this issue. You seem to have already convinced FirmTofu, and this is the kind of matter we can get Town Consensus on now in the early game. Here hurricane senses that he's dragging out the NN talk for too long but then double downs on it by encouraging others to continue the discussion. This feels like scum trying to get others to continue on the conversation without him having to post more. Furthemore in the above quote that hurricane quotes, aqua asks for thoughts on his chrom case, yet he passes over the opportunity to give his opinions out. I feel he is just waiting to see how wagons are rolling before he places his opinion down in the safest place possible.
Hopefully my post addresses these issues. My post took about 35 minutes to craft, so I'm sorry for wasting your time. Do you have any further concerns about me that I can help clear up?
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On June 25 2013 23:43 Aquanim wrote:I don't see how insulting the thread is bad from a scum perspective. It gives the illusion that you're confident and whatnot (and thus town) without having to do any scumhunting or anything else useful. In fact, it sounds a lot like what I've heard about Ace's style. In any case, he did do it and it hasn't "guaranteed" his lynch by any means, so I can't see how it's a bad scum move. For that matter, if it was going to guarantee his lynch, there's nothing about His case on me, while bad, isn't inherently super-scummy in as of itself. If bad cases were a scumtell this game...  My problem with it (and with his play as a whole) is that he never did anything with it. Xzavier isn't pushing on me to improve his read, he isn't trying to convince anyone else to lynch me, he isn't looking at anyone else... he just dropped a lacklustre case and said "I'm done with scumhunting for the day, time to whinge about how everyone's being nasty to me and expecting me to play up to my meta".
I dont see how insulting others gives you confidence but that just might be subjective thing that people see differently.
Now im going try to respond to everyone's comment about my defense of xzavier here so there aren't 15 reply posts.
I acknowledge that not all scum are calculating and that this could be a panicking scum but it just doesnt feel like it in this case. Nothing is certain until the flip. Chrom, i agree he should be scum hunting as that would be the best way to convince others to not vote him. But he hasnt really, so why is that? If he were a truly panicked scum i would think he would listen to everyone and start making cases, not go crazy. It looks like he is thinking about voting Alakazam but he hasnt posted a case.
Lone, I see what you are talking about but i disagree. If a scum were to get a lot of votes you would think his reaction would be "oh shit" and not "1/2 of you are retarded". Like what has been said before, scum can insult.
Also at this point if he starts scum hunting will that change much? Its what he is expected to do so will that mean he is town or just trying to look town. Opinions probably won't change that much will they?
It just feels that Xzavier was trying to play a lot more cautious after last game and over did it early on here with not getting any scum reads out because he didnt feel confident.
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I'll talk about Stim specifically in a moment, but I pretty much wholeheartedly agree with your first two paragraphs, Sponge.
I think that Stim's "meta" helps him in this case.
The only real point that it's possible to bring against him right now is that he's hardcore lurking (which is pretty bad). However, it really is the standard lurker lynch coinflip. Stim has already shown that he lurks as town. He's lurking harder this game, sure, but Stim isn't a contributor as town or scum.
He'd make a great vigi shot, though.
The thing is, Stim isn't even trying to act like he's contributing. He's doing nothing, but he's not posting fluff to make it seem like he's contributing.
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Spicy
It's one thing to be more cautious after a game, it's another to not scumhunt at all.
If he were a truly panicked scum i would think he would listen to everyone and start making cases, not go crazy.
The whole "If Xzav were scum, he would do x" argument is WIFOM. Maybe he would do that as scum. Maybe he's not and he's trying to trick us. Maybe he's not doing it anyway because he doesn't know how to.
He might not be making cases because it's hard to scumhunt as scum. He might not be making cases so people think that it's a "genuine townie reaction". He might not be making cases so that you make the exact argument you're making now.
There are a number of reasons why he would react the way he has, and it doesn't make him townier at all.
That sort of argument is what makes up most of his defense and now your defense of him, which is why I found his defense thoroughly unconvincing.
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On June 26 2013 00:19 Chromatically wrote:
I'll talk about Stim specifically in a moment, but I pretty much wholeheartedly agree with your first two paragraphs, Sponge.
I think that Stim's "meta" helps him in this case.
The only real point that it's possible to bring against him right now is that he's hardcore lurking (which is pretty bad). However, it really is the standard lurker lynch coinflip. Stim has already shown that he lurks as town. He's lurking harder this game, sure, but Stim isn't a contributor as town or scum.
He'd make a great vigi shot, though.
The thing is, Stim isn't even trying to act like he's contributing. He's doing nothing, but he's not posting fluff to make it seem like he's contributing.
I guess I'm saying I like the coinflip odds right now, then. A lot of the other cases seem like town-on-town crime to me. I will re-read the cases, but unless Stim produces some seriously convincing content, my vote will stay where it is. (His meta validates him only if he contributes in a significant way. For now, he's using his meta as permission to lurk until the last possible second.)
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@hurricane
This doesn't change my analysis and actually furthers my argument. You picked the sole lurker as your vote which is a huge cop out giving everyone else's level of activity and looks extremely scummy.
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On June 26 2013 00:30 Spicydinosaur wrote:
@hurricane
This doesn't change my analysis and actually furthers my argument. You picked the sole lurker as your vote which is a huge cop out giving everyone else's level of activity and looks extremely scummy.
Alright. I understand your point of view, and it is not without merit. Unfortunately, I cannot disclose at this time why I was so interested in the NN issue. If you can convince the rest of the town that it is reason enough to lynch me, then you shall have my head.
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Who are your other scumreads, Sponge?
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On June 26 2013 00:30 Spicydinosaur wrote:
@hurricane
This doesn't change my analysis and actually furthers my argument. You picked the sole lurker as your vote which is a huge cop out giving everyone else's level of activity and looks extremely scummy.
Wait, just one quick point. So if I had joined one of the other bandwagons, it looked scummy to you. But making a new case and bringing it forward also looks scummy? What were my options?
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On June 26 2013 00:25 Chromatically wrote:Spicy It's one thing to be more cautious after a game, it's another to not scumhunt at all. Show nested quote + If he were a truly panicked scum i would think he would listen to everyone and start making cases, not go crazy.
The whole "If Xzav were scum, he would do x" argument is WIFOM. Maybe he would do that as scum. Maybe he's not and he's trying to trick us. Maybe he's not doing it anyway because he doesn't know how to. He might not be making cases because it's hard to scumhunt as scum. He might not be making cases so people think that it's a "genuine townie reaction". He might not be making cases so that you make the exact argument you're making now. There are a number of reasons why he would react the way he has, and it doesn't make him townier at all. That sort of argument is what makes up most of his defense and now your defense of him, which is why I found his defense thoroughly unconvincing.
Fair point the on WIFOM. For me it just comes down to the fact that i dont see this as a scum xzavier given his last game play and self reflection afterwards with his bad reads. I just don't buy a scum xzavier not having some type of read or questions about cases out by the time of the vote.
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On June 26 2013 00:35 Hurricane Sponge wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 00:30 Spicydinosaur wrote:
@hurricane
This doesn't change my analysis and actually furthers my argument. You picked the sole lurker as your vote which is a huge cop out giving everyone else's level of activity and looks extremely scummy.
Wait, just one quick point. So if I had joined one of the other bandwagons, it looked scummy to you. But making a new case and bringing it forward also looks scummy? What were my options?
My whole issue with you is that you scum hunted a little in the beginning with extremely early posts, then just talked about NN for the remainder. You didnt question people about cases, you didnt make any of your own, and now you picked a lurker. If you jumped on a wagon now i would still be suspicious because it doesnt change the underlying reasons i think you are scum.
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On June 26 2013 00:35 Chromatically wrote:
Who are your other scumreads, Sponge?
For me, Xzavier is definitely something big. Could be SK, could be scum, could be... big. He has veiled references that he will be useful Day 2. If his play doesn't shape up in Day 2, I'd be for a Xzavier lynch, but I'm willing to give him that chance.
Spicy could be mad that I singled him out early. Or maybe my early shot in the dark linking him and Xzavier as scummy actually scared their team. He's awfully defensive, but he's claimed that is his playstyle. And his case on me isn't false. He's just missing a key bit of information. Not his fault. I'm inclined to believe he is town since he's done SO much to drive town discussion. I'd pencil in Spicy as town with a gun to my head, but obviously with the accusation, now he's going to be on my radar whether I want him to be or not (your brain tricks you into thinking that everyone who accuses you when you're town is scum).
Stim feels like scum. I wrote my case. As a fellow excited newbie, that play does NOT add up. I don't have much else. I could make up some stuff to fill space, but that doesn't do anyone any good.
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On June 26 2013 00:40 Spicydinosaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 00:35 Hurricane Sponge wrote:On June 26 2013 00:30 Spicydinosaur wrote:
@hurricane
This doesn't change my analysis and actually furthers my argument. You picked the sole lurker as your vote which is a huge cop out giving everyone else's level of activity and looks extremely scummy.
Wait, just one quick point. So if I had joined one of the other bandwagons, it looked scummy to you. But making a new case and bringing it forward also looks scummy? What were my options? My whole issue with you is that you scum hunted a little in the beginning with extremely early posts, then just talked about NN for the remainder. You didnt question people about cases, you didnt make any of your own, and now you picked a lurker. If you jumped on a wagon now i would still be suspicious because it doesnt change the underlying reasons i think you are scum.
I understand. Thank you for responding. Please let me know if you require any other information from me as the game goes on. I will try to be more useful in the future.
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EPT
