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Catch 22 Mafia - Page 25

Forum Index > TL Mafia
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yamato77
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
11589 Posts
June 21 2013 18:37 GMT
#481
Also

##Vote ShiaoPi

Until further notice.
Writer@WriterYamato
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
June 21 2013 18:39 GMT
#482
'afternoon all

Got some good posting going on, and I'mma gonna catch up shortly. But first...

@ GK

I don't understand the first part of your case against Shaio. You identify two of his posts about his suspicions of you and state that they "contradict", however I can't see at all how that's the case:
On June 21 2013 23:02 ShiaoPi wrote:
gk's case on oats is pretty trash. Gut feeling says scum to me at the moment, maybe because it feels a lot like his posting last game, where we both were scum.

##vote: goodkarma

oh yamato is nullish dude who looks scummy if that clarification was needed


Despite you screaming about how the case is "solely on meta", that's simply not true. The bolded makes clear motive for his vote, and the meta seems very secondary.

The second quote you list is perfectly consistent with this.

This is basic reading GK, and the second case from you I'm reading as forced and logically-flawed.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
June 21 2013 18:41 GMT
#483
Yamato, I look forward to the explanation. Shaio's more recent posting moved him more back to null for me, and I really don't see what's similar about those two quotes you pointed out.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
yamato77
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
11589 Posts
June 21 2013 18:42 GMT
#484
On June 22 2013 03:41 Hapahauli wrote:
Yamato, I look forward to the explanation. Shaio's more recent posting moved him more back to null for me, and I really don't see what's similar about those two quotes you pointed out.

1) He makes a terrible opening post that he tries to brush off as meaningless

2) He goes on to divert attention to someone else

ScumShiao
Writer@WriterYamato
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
June 21 2013 18:47 GMT
#485
On June 22 2013 03:42 yamato77 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 22 2013 03:41 Hapahauli wrote:
Yamato, I look forward to the explanation. Shaio's more recent posting moved him more back to null for me, and I really don't see what's similar about those two quotes you pointed out.

1) He makes a terrible opening post that he tries to brush off as meaningless

2) He goes on to divert attention to someone else

ScumShiao


Hah. The architecture is uncannily similar.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
yamato77
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
11589 Posts
June 21 2013 18:52 GMT
#486
On June 22 2013 03:47 Hapahauli wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 22 2013 03:42 yamato77 wrote:
On June 22 2013 03:41 Hapahauli wrote:
Yamato, I look forward to the explanation. Shaio's more recent posting moved him more back to null for me, and I really don't see what's similar about those two quotes you pointed out.

1) He makes a terrible opening post that he tries to brush off as meaningless

2) He goes on to divert attention to someone else

ScumShiao


Hah. The architecture is uncannily similar.

And wouldn't you think that this kind of "architecture" is exactly the kind of tell that gives away scum?

Note that his terrible initial posting came under fire both games, indicating that he generally has a hard time making opening posts as mafia. As a tried and true tactic for getting out of it, he explains away his posts and chooses to divert attention to someone else he can quickly come up with a case on.

The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. If he's pulled this exact maneuver as scum before, why wouldn't he do it again?
Writer@WriterYamato
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
June 21 2013 18:54 GMT
#487
On June 22 2013 03:52 yamato77 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 22 2013 03:47 Hapahauli wrote:
On June 22 2013 03:42 yamato77 wrote:
On June 22 2013 03:41 Hapahauli wrote:
Yamato, I look forward to the explanation. Shaio's more recent posting moved him more back to null for me, and I really don't see what's similar about those two quotes you pointed out.

1) He makes a terrible opening post that he tries to brush off as meaningless

2) He goes on to divert attention to someone else

ScumShiao


Hah. The architecture is uncannily similar.

And wouldn't you think that this kind of "architecture" is exactly the kind of tell that gives away scum?

Note that his terrible initial posting came under fire both games, indicating that he generally has a hard time making opening posts as mafia. As a tried and true tactic for getting out of it, he explains away his posts and chooses to divert attention to someone else he can quickly come up with a case on.

The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. If he's pulled this exact maneuver as scum before, why wouldn't he do it again?


No, I think it's precisely stuff like 'architecture' that's how meta is totally misapplied.
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
yamato77
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
11589 Posts
June 21 2013 18:55 GMT
#488
On June 22 2013 03:54 marvellosity wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 22 2013 03:52 yamato77 wrote:
On June 22 2013 03:47 Hapahauli wrote:
On June 22 2013 03:42 yamato77 wrote:
On June 22 2013 03:41 Hapahauli wrote:
Yamato, I look forward to the explanation. Shaio's more recent posting moved him more back to null for me, and I really don't see what's similar about those two quotes you pointed out.

1) He makes a terrible opening post that he tries to brush off as meaningless

2) He goes on to divert attention to someone else

ScumShiao


Hah. The architecture is uncannily similar.

And wouldn't you think that this kind of "architecture" is exactly the kind of tell that gives away scum?

Note that his terrible initial posting came under fire both games, indicating that he generally has a hard time making opening posts as mafia. As a tried and true tactic for getting out of it, he explains away his posts and chooses to divert attention to someone else he can quickly come up with a case on.

The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. If he's pulled this exact maneuver as scum before, why wouldn't he do it again?


No, I think it's precisely stuff like 'architecture' that's how meta is totally misapplied.

So you don't think that I'm at all accurate in my analysis of what has gone on in this game and that game?
Writer@WriterYamato
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
June 21 2013 18:57 GMT
#489
On June 22 2013 03:55 yamato77 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 22 2013 03:54 marvellosity wrote:
On June 22 2013 03:52 yamato77 wrote:
On June 22 2013 03:47 Hapahauli wrote:
On June 22 2013 03:42 yamato77 wrote:
On June 22 2013 03:41 Hapahauli wrote:
Yamato, I look forward to the explanation. Shaio's more recent posting moved him more back to null for me, and I really don't see what's similar about those two quotes you pointed out.

1) He makes a terrible opening post that he tries to brush off as meaningless

2) He goes on to divert attention to someone else

ScumShiao


Hah. The architecture is uncannily similar.

And wouldn't you think that this kind of "architecture" is exactly the kind of tell that gives away scum?

Note that his terrible initial posting came under fire both games, indicating that he generally has a hard time making opening posts as mafia. As a tried and true tactic for getting out of it, he explains away his posts and chooses to divert attention to someone else he can quickly come up with a case on.

The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. If he's pulled this exact maneuver as scum before, why wouldn't he do it again?


No, I think it's precisely stuff like 'architecture' that's how meta is totally misapplied.

So you don't think that I'm at all accurate in my analysis of what has gone on in this game and that game?


The problem is, yamato, "diverting attention" also translates to "talking about something else and potentially scumhunting".

Say he's town for a moment, and made a dumb opening post. How should he proceed? Probably by looking for suspicious stuff and commenting on it, right?
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
June 21 2013 18:57 GMT
#490
On June 22 2013 03:52 yamato77 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 22 2013 03:47 Hapahauli wrote:
On June 22 2013 03:42 yamato77 wrote:
On June 22 2013 03:41 Hapahauli wrote:
Yamato, I look forward to the explanation. Shaio's more recent posting moved him more back to null for me, and I really don't see what's similar about those two quotes you pointed out.

1) He makes a terrible opening post that he tries to brush off as meaningless

2) He goes on to divert attention to someone else

ScumShiao


Hah. The architecture is uncannily similar.

And wouldn't you think that this kind of "architecture" is exactly the kind of tell that gives away scum?


It puts me on higher alert about him, but that's about it. It's definitely not damning on it's own.

The main reason being that your case doesn't preclude the possibility of it being a general, non-alignment indicative posting style.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
June 21 2013 18:59 GMT
#491
I have this kinda semi-vague memory from quite a while ago of spending fucking AGES making a meta-case on someone like Bluelightz or something. Like I looked at his entire filter from 12 different games. And I saw only ONE other instance where he introduced a case in a very specific way, out of the many cases he'd made, and in that case he was mafia. And he'd done it in the game I was in... I was like a ha! Look at this awesome specific tell I found! Problem was it was bullshit and he was town and it just happened he'd introduced the case that way in a town game this time.
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
yamato77
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
11589 Posts
June 21 2013 19:03 GMT
#492
So if it isn't alignment indicative, as the both of you claim, I suppose there's nothing else about his posting that raises any alarms.

##unvote

Notably, he is on my watch list still.
Writer@WriterYamato
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
June 21 2013 19:13 GMT
#493
Anyway, GK is still my top-scumread.

His first post/entrance on Oats was pretty bad, and his second case on Shiao is based on him clearly not reading Shiao's posts.

@ Rayn

Current thoughts on Yamato?

@ GK

Ditto on Oats?
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
yamato77
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
11589 Posts
June 21 2013 19:13 GMT
#494
I'm not entirely sold on this GK thing, though. It doesn't seem all that out of the ordinary to be confused by how Oats plays. Aside from that, I believe everything he is writing is from a town perspective.
Writer@WriterYamato
yamato77
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
11589 Posts
June 21 2013 19:15 GMT
#495
On June 22 2013 04:13 Hapahauli wrote:
Anyway, GK is still my top-scumread.

His first post/entrance on Oats was pretty bad, and his second case on Shiao is based on him clearly not reading Shiao's posts.

@ Rayn

Current thoughts on Yamato?

@ GK

Ditto on Oats?

You're not reading very hard if you think GK believes Shiao's case on him is totally meta. He says it is partly meta, which is absolutely true.
Writer@WriterYamato
yamato77
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
11589 Posts
June 21 2013 19:16 GMT
#496
For reference:

On June 22 2013 00:58 goodkarma wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 22 2013 00:43 ShiaoPi wrote:
On June 22 2013 00:37 raynpelikoneet wrote:
On June 22 2013 00:32 ShiaoPi wrote:
On June 22 2013 00:25 raynpelikoneet wrote:
On June 22 2013 00:10 ShiaoPi wrote:
sorry went off for a round of dota

On June 21 2013 23:14 raynpelikoneet wrote:
So you agree you were saying something just for sake of saying something?


The post I did was in order to verify if my impression of yamatos play is shared by everyone or at least some of the other players. so no that post was not only for the sake of saying something.

On June 21 2013 23:14 marvellosity wrote:
On June 21 2013 23:08 ShiaoPi wrote:
Because that is what yamato does (at least in my memory)? Yes, it does not help anyone to determine his alignment right now, but what did you expect, words of wisdom in every post I do on day 1? It's just something to keep in mind.

I am thinking you are blowing this way out of proportion


When have you played with yamato that has given you this impression?


Cannot pin point it to a certain game right now, would have to look in his game history again, but it is more I always feel like wanting to shoot him for some posts he does. take it as you want, I am really dont feel like like searching for specifics right now.

Now on GK:
The case on oats is bad since I have not seen anything really alignment indicative from oats right now. gk is just using oats playstyle against him to look contributing and scumhunting, usual scum motivation stuff. His play also feels a lot like I swear this is normal mini mafia, which just ended recently and where I and gk were scum. (minus the inactive replacement shenanis)
Also gk is most surely familiar with oats' play so taking this "easy" target is something I think is clearly scummotivated

The case on Oats is bad for sure. I'm just trying to figure out if it's scum!GK or town!GK doing this. You seem to be sure of him being scum because you have voted for him. It does not matter if GK has done this as scum, the question you did not answer is do you have evidence that he has not done this as town? Is your meta-case valid or not?


I think mainly based on gut feeling and comparison with the last game as scum we had together. Cant remember the last time goodkarma rolled town with me playing as well.
Also you just objectively judged that the case is terribad, so why do you need so much meta? Meta is much more of a helpful factor in my opinion not necessarily the argument to get somebody lynched. So I see gk doing that case on oats which is scummy as shit and then compare it to his play in I swear, I think its similar so it reinforces my scumread on him...
To be honest I don't even know what your problem is

My problem is that you are voting for GK based on meta, because he once made a bad case against someone as scum. Guess what? Townies make bad cases too, especially early on in the game. I am not saying i think GK is town, but you seem to be so sure he is scum because of this meta you are describing, especially when you are under attack from some people now.

If you are going to make a meta case at least get your facts straight. Look at Les Mafia, look at GK's case on me and tell me that the case GK made can only come from a scum!GK.


its not specifically a meta case, meta is just supportive of objectively scummy play by fabricating a case based on a players inconsistent, wild playstyle


If your case isn't based on meta, then why are you drawing on your experience with me from last game to incorrectly reach the conclusion that I'm scum this game?

You in fact are relying in part on meta here... And without any kind of understanding of my townplay as a baseline to work from at that...

I would be very interested in knowing who else you think is scum, or if I'm your one and only scumread atm?

Writer@WriterYamato
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
June 21 2013 19:16 GMT
#497
On June 22 2013 04:13 yamato77 wrote:
I'm not entirely sold on this GK thing, though. It doesn't seem all that out of the ordinary to be confused by how Oats plays. Aside from that, I believe everything he is writing is from a town perspective.


If it was GK's first time seeing Oats play, I'd understand a bit more. But he saw him in action as town last-game and should expect this wild, random behavior.

Other than that, his cases just read very forced. He's harping on individual points that are incorrect (Shaio's case on GK being all meta) or non-allignment indicative (Oats moving on from his Hapa/DP scum-line) and calling people scum for it.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
June 21 2013 19:18 GMT
#498
Yamato, are you reading the same thing I'm reading?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=417453&currentpage=24#479

Selections:
And yet your opening post that highlights why you’re voting me says it’s based on how I played last game, which is the very definition of a meta-case.

Yet… Your case is in fact literally based solely on meta…


Need I continue?
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
June 21 2013 19:22 GMT
#499
Well to continue anyway, ShiaoPi's initial post very plainly states that he's voting GK because of GK's initial "bad-case" on Oats:
On June 21 2013 23:02 ShiaoPi wrote:
gk's case on oats is pretty trash. Gut feeling says scum to me at the moment, maybe because it feels a lot like his posting last game, where we both were scum.

##vote: goodkarma

oh yamato is nullish dude who looks scummy if that clarification was needed


Yet GK completely skips this over and screams "meta-case! meta-case!" and calls ShiaoPi scum for it. I don't buy it, and it reads as forced.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
yamato77
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
11589 Posts
June 21 2013 19:23 GMT
#500
On June 22 2013 04:16 Hapahauli wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 22 2013 04:13 yamato77 wrote:
I'm not entirely sold on this GK thing, though. It doesn't seem all that out of the ordinary to be confused by how Oats plays. Aside from that, I believe everything he is writing is from a town perspective.


If it was GK's first time seeing Oats play, I'd understand a bit more. But he saw him in action as town last-game and should expect this wild, random behavior.

Other than that, his cases just read very forced. He's harping on individual points that are incorrect (Shaio's case on GK being all meta) or non-allignment indicative (Oats moving on from his Hapa/DP scum-line) and calling people scum for it.

The first point I've obviously proven demonstrably false. The second point is also unrepresentative of what went on, he specifically made the point multiple times that it was Oats' jump onto my wagon along with his abandonment of his other reads that made him suspicious, which I also thought was odd at the time. Later on it becomes clearer what is going on with Oats, and GK obviously realizes that as well.

This is all in his filter, Hapa.
Writer@WriterYamato
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