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On June 04 2013 10:29 goodkarma wrote: A normal game that's... actually normal???
*gasps*
That is what you think??? + Show Spoiler +There are 11 players, for 11 players that means to be normal there is 2 and half scum(bad men). Then Blazing hand posted this On June 04 2013 09:25 Blazinghand wrote:wow this game is taking so long to start That image is a visual Freudian scum slip. Blazing hand is thus the last half man of the scum team. The game may have been "normal" but it is no longer entirely normal.
/in
BTW as is traditional for my games that is probably the best case I will make all game. Like Hapa I give advance notice my play style will be exactly like previous games and hence entirely different.
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On June 04 2013 18:17 marvellosity wrote:Now if you could just delay this until Smurf is finished...
Its Ok the battle cruisers needed for all of blazing hands posts are going to take forever to build.
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On June 05 2013 23:46 DarthPunk wrote: you need to gruel me? Perhaps its because he thinks we are all convicts down here?? Oh, that was a grueling a stretch of the language. I hope that does not mean I will be eaten by the grue that would be cruel.
look what happens when I think about it too long. The thread finishes discussing it and i find some plain boring bland junk. + Show Spoiler [More gruel for the mill] + What is intriguing is that, An amercian dictionary says a "Chiefly English" definition is " Severe punishment." Whereas the Collins, Oxford, Cambridge dictionaries don't think that word in their language means that. While it is interesting that the US has its own language and spellings and calls them English anyway, now they have apparently started telling the English what English English is as well
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On June 06 2013 00:50 Oatsmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2013 00:41 TheDavison wrote: laksa.. gruel
some uneducated may say its the same thing, dear =P Heathens.
did we take your name in vein dear.
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/out
I dont at this moment know if I have time to play. I may well be back when I know.
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now I know that I both have, and will have the time....
Oh well.
/replacement
or /in if someone is out
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As at this moment there is hole, and to remove any doubt.
/in
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On June 08 2013 16:07 Blazinghand wrote:sorry am eating dinner will get back to you soon here is screenshot of dinner for proof
Here is link to a post by you with a screen shot of your dinner after you have eaten it. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18666959
if you analyse those two images forensically, pixel by pixel.
Notice that none of it is missing compared with where you say you are up to at the moment.
You are not eating your dinner, as that screen shot shows proves 100% you have already eaten as much of your dinner as you are going to and are thus actively lurking.
The question however is:- Is that what you do as town or what you do as scum, or is it in the [orange]ignore[/orange] bucket. {CBA finding the link to the venn diagram, post {edit:nah here it is} }
I think that if we examine your meta, then we will find you have 'not eaten' that very same dinner before... and you flipped town.
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Ok as the game thread has been total waste of time so far and not got me any closer to determining people alignments. here is my policy/look busy post. i was going to post it earlier but I just had dinner. + Show Spoiler [screenshot] +here is screen shot of something that is not my dinner for proof that it is not mydinner.
On June 08 2013 12:57 cDgCorazon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2013 12:55 DarthPunk wrote: I'll play just don't expect me to be super active on the weekend. Ok that's totally fine. Game will start at deadline tomorrow (22 hours).
Cool: Assuming we are still on the same time cycle "Currently the deadline is 02:00 GMT (+00:00), but that is subject to change." AND Assuming I get the countdown snyatx right.
Check list of things I need to start the game. A List of people I can try to lynch. A general plan of how to do that. A detailed practical implementation for realising execution of the plan.
oops. BTW Attention All/some of the OP filters are(were) broken recently (by a backend server change?)
Filters Player List: (A list that i think works for me here Saturday, Jun 08 8:50am GMT (GMT+00:00) 1. Blazinghand 2. Hapahauli 3. VayneAuthority 4. Sylencia 5. GravityMan 6. Jampidampi 7. ShiaoPi 8. Oatsmaster 9. DarthPunk 10. AxleGreaser 11. Stutters695
Host List: H0. cDgCorazon C0. Ange777 C1. ghost_403
Obs List: Obzy LazerMonkey Chromatically
people who have good karma List: (aka : thank you kind sir for your gracious exit) GoodKarma
people not playing the game marvellosity
people who dont exist 187170
Ok that is enough lynch targets for now...
The general plan: After We lynch DP for lurking and we lynch all list posters then we lynch everyone that scum slips. Sounds easy.
The practical execution of plan: Kill the pig, cut her throat spill his blood. herp derp.
yep let get this game operational. + Show Spoiler [In other news] +Nice weather: Random bullshit phase appears to have come early this game
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Hmmmm :\.... This is different.
+ Show Spoiler [LOLCAT] + Axle: So Skip here we are again. Speaking of that ground hog day thing, didnt I die in the last town we were in? Skip: Woof. Woooooof woof. Axle: Oh its timey whimey thing and I should not worry about that.. ok.
Axle: So Skip here we are again. How does this one smell?
Skip: Woof. …...................... Wof wof. Axle: Hmm not too big, and not too many arcane power smells, sounds good. But Uh oh, we cant stay here. Skip: Woof?
Axle: Its normal town and were not normal we're different.
Skip: Woof!
Axle: What do you mean, Normal is different. Normal is same not different. And what do you mean you can prove it mathematically?
Skip: Woofity woof woof <plonk>
Axle: Ok so I looked up normal in the math text, you just happened to have and I looked up normal. Now what? Skip: Woooooooooooooooof Axle: Ok so on a Euclidean surface you can move around any where you like and its just the same as anywhere else. So whats different? Obviously off the surface is different to on the surface, and the further off you get the more different to the surface you are. Skip: [big]Woof![big] Axle: yeah Ok... I suppose a normal vector does get off the surface as fast as it is possible to do, so it (a normal) is in a sense as different to the surface as it is possible to be.
Axle: <thinks>
Axle: Ok so Normal may be Different, but what if we are a different kind of different one that is not normal. Oh, you have another text that covers that and I should read it for myself... Ok.
Axle: and you marked a page for me: “The curse of dimensionality.”
Axle: {reads to self} Ok so lets see if I got this right. In high dimensional space Rn, if all the relatively small population(us?the town is small n) are normally distributed on each quality (anger, agression, good play, …) then most people are an outlier in their own projection.
Axle:
Axle:
Axle: Wat?
Axle: No on second thoughts skip, I don't care any more and far as I am concerned it is all just the same difference, lets just go in and see who is around.
Oh apparently that(different) is normal
Ok. and Vanilla Town [brown]chocolate brownie[/brown]
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On April 11 2013 14:56 Oatsmaster wrote: Also when Axle is playing, I ROLL SCUM. EVERY FUCKING TIME. Thanks Axle. <3
no charge. ##vote Oatsmaster because Axle is playing therefore oats claims he is scum.
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@host OP says: The mayor will be given the power of an extra vote, as well as 2 other powers and one game condition they must follow, all to be explained after the election.
All will be explained... but to who? The mayor, or the thread, or is it another surprise.
@town countdown to sad face:
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<spam mode=on> ##Mayor Vote: AxleGreaser
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On June 09 2013 13:03 Sylencia wrote: Hi Axle, you seem to be the only one here. Want to make me mayor? :D
Not until I know your alignment and probably/possibly/maybe what the powers restrictions are or even know who will know what about them when. In the absence of all knowledge, I already chose the optimal course.
Even then there may be other candidates I'd prefer based on capability generating a better risk benefit tradeoff. If I had enough information I might even prefer a candidate other than me.
We are getting late enough in the day now that experience tells me, that other tzs likely wont be checking in. hence we lose a fraction of the day
do you have suggestion of what we can do profitably? AFAIK 1v1 mafia doesn't work that well.
aka speak words now.
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On June 09 2013 14:12 Sylencia wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 13:30 AxleGreaser wrote:On June 09 2013 13:03 Sylencia wrote: Hi Axle, you seem to be the only one here. Want to make me mayor? :D Not until I know your alignment and probably/possibly/maybe what the powers restrictions are or even know who will know what about them when. In the absence of all knowledge, I already chose the optimal course. Even then there may be other candidates I'd prefer based on capability generating a better risk benefit tradeoff. If I had enough information I might even prefer a candidate other than me. We are getting late enough in the day now that experience tells me, that other tzs likely wont be checking in. hence we lose a fraction of the day do you have suggestion of what we can do profitably? AFAIK 1v1 mafia doesn't work that well. aka speak words now. Pretty sure you can tell from my track record that I really only roll non-VT when I force myself into a themed game Also, we won't know what these powers/restrictions are until the election is over so there's no real point trying to work it out. In which case everyone ends up voting themselves as the 'optimal' route? We have quite a few people in for discussion now, but what is there to discuss at the moment..
>We have quite a few people in for discussion now, but what is there to discuss at the moment.. We grasp at straws. I already voted Oats because ...
Now when I say: > Not until I know your alignment and probably/possibly/maybe what the powers restrictions are or even know who will > know what about them when. In the absence of all knowledge, I already chose the optimal course.
Which mentions both determining alignments and setup speculation Sylencia: < "Also, we won't know what these powers/restrictions are until the election is over so there's no real point trying to < work it out. In which case everyone ends up voting themselves as the 'optimal' route?"
Which seems to have overlooked finding out alignments, the important bit. If you already knew them that would explain that assumption.
That's what I do. Now I see what you do.
Also do remember, while we do this, to notice what other people are not doing.
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On June 09 2013 15:00 Hapahauli wrote: Also, jampi is town. EZ.
I keep reading up to this post and going. uh. I dont know why.
I accept you have better knowledge of Jampi than me. (equivalently?)I expect at some time to get a good read on Syl if Syl posts, for some reason I think I can read Syl. I accept you pushed jampi and he rang pretty true in fairly small time frames. What I don't have but I guess you do (or did when you coached him?) is have good estimate of whether scum jampi could do that? (see the BH venn diag)
Also what it might be that is making me uneasy is that is quite a few town reads you're clocking up. and labelling them EZ.
I find towns tend to lose when they get complacent, hence you promoting complacency can have scum motivation. Clocking up that many town reads seems harder to marry into the pattern. This would worry me more except i have heard that sooner or later if you are scum then you start posting baby seal pictures then we lynch you.
Hapa: Can you aid me in not being distracted by this post of yours?
@Sylencia Please post more.
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Full post here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18846784 heavily edited to get the bits I want.
On June 09 2013 17:12 Hapahauli wrote:@ Axle[....] Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 15:00 jampidampi wrote:On June 09 2013 14:54 Hapahauli wrote: Yes, but that requires a lot of assumptions. Not only do you have to process and understand my read on ShiaoPi, but you also have to trust that I'm telling the truth and that I'm town. I have a lot of subconscious reasons to trust you. 1. You were my coach in a newbie 2. You were my hydra partner and we were town 3. I haven't read a scum game of yours Also, cookies It's a very blunt, honest, and complete picture of his thought-process. [...] Like what scum would admit that they haven't read one of my scum-games before deciding to trust me? [...]
Ta that interaction gives me a good start at the context that I need to understand/evaluate your future posts. Also the two points (aspects of jampis play) are what I will try to build a mental model of(his context) when I read his meta. (aka do i think he could do that as scum) {and yeah i hadn't noticed the implications of admitting not reading your scum game before deciding to trust you.}
AKA that helps me find where green and red on BHs diagram is for both of you...
Now if the rest of the thread will just oblige by posting words... lots of them all at once. It might indeed be EZ.
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On June 09 2013 17:38 Hapahauli wrote: @ Axle (cont.)
Also a last note about early-game reads... every read someone makes early D1 is completely worthless. Early D1 is only about getting people to talk, and that's it. It is always important re-consider every single one your reads and start from scratch when the D1 lynch gets close.
oh yeah, early game reads. Those early ones are usually worthless based on fresh air, fairy tales fiction and BS.
Consider when i proved 100% Bh was town... that was pregame. His pregame alignment was town. I completely recant that read now for his in game alignment.
My early read on oats seems shaky too, but so far he has done nothing to shake it. So yes I am probably aware of the usual ebb and flow of the day, even if sometimes I get it totally wrong.
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Vayne, I have tried twice to write this post the first one asked the wrong question. it may still ask not what i mean. meh. It is a difficult little thought please read carefully and discuss it with me. After one or two iterations we may reach common ground.
Gross generalisations about your meta + Show Spoiler + I have, when you played them, been a spectator of some of your previous games. (I think mainly les) At the time I dreaded playing with you and having to try and read you due to choices you make that for me potentially put all your play in the orange bucket. This happens when you assert that you get _all_ your reads from flip analysis of voting and nks. You seemingly in the other games I read use that claim about yourself to justify some level 'no comment' on things in thread.
TLDR; its all orange to me.
Those are broad sweeping generalisations, and they are I think about your town and scum play. (orange bit) if after the discussion they are wrong sorry?
Concrete observations in this game. In this post you say you do things to promote discussion. + Show Spoiler +On June 09 2013 15:01 VayneAuthority wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 14:57 ShiaoPi wrote:On June 09 2013 14:56 VayneAuthority wrote: not running for mayor
##vote mayor: Sylencia why? to generate discussion, I want to see who the stragglers vote for so you poked them with a stick. {good/agree/yes/tick}.
Conversely when you are poked (asked a question) + Show Spoiler +On June 09 2013 15:25 VayneAuthority wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 15:22 ShiaoPi wrote: I am intersted in getting sylencia back here right now. What is your stance on my campaign? Null until everyone votes, if there's just one mayor and everyone votes him we gain zero info, thats what scum wants. Do you engage in conversation. Does the discussion proceed or does your answer tend to shut it down?
Your discussion promotion method (vote) is something that is easy for scum to emulate. Answering questions when being prodded is harder, please try to to do the harder things too.
Here is a new question. Independent of how the votes pan out, because sometimes at the end of the day there is one no brainer candidate. If we discussed the mayoral campaign, and found out who was shy about commenting during the day before the result was clear, would that help find scum or would it as you seem to suggest yield 'zero information'.
Do note I agree wholeheartedly with the general sentiment, (and I am pretty sure my previous games will support the notion that,) I oppose days with one wagon, but primarily because there is no/limited discussion.
lastly even if you need the votes (or you get zero information), I think a number of other people need significant interactive discussion and the vote, so please comment more fully on the question of the mayoral election.
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@oats as i have my vote on you and the reasons posted are (ahem) a little shaky.
and while it is nice that you think everyone is cool or could be. try to post something wincon related please.
if nothing else there bunch of mayoral stuff floating around that should be easy pickings.
or feel free to choose and or add your own topics befitting your erudite stature.
/doing other stuff
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On June 10 2013 06:42 Hapahauli wrote: Actually hell, vote me for mayor.
I'm essentially leading the town anyway, and I want to use the fancy mysterious powers I will gain to kill scum.
##Unvote Mayor: ##Vote Mayor: Hapahauli
Well at least the last phase is over.
##Unvote Mayor: ##Vote Mayor: Hapahauli
and oh look actual reasoning: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18851240
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@vayne Earlier i asked you a question in this post. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18848066 While I am you didnt answer it. The post below has the kind of content i was looking for. So consider the last question answered, providing you go on posting content, as opposed to the stuff I could call 'dodging' that you did earlier.
On June 10 2013 08:02 VayneAuthority wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 07:11 Hapahauli wrote:On June 10 2013 07:06 VayneAuthority wrote: Oats/jampi Can you explain your reads a bit? I think I heard a decent amount from you on Oats, but I'm more curious about Jampi. Is there 2 or 3 scum? I'd assume either 3 scum or 2 powerful scum + an SK. If 3 i'd give filler slot to that lurker gravityman, everyone else seems fine DarthPunk also hasn't posted. Also, what do you think about Sylencia? yea I forgot about DP so ignore that then Sylencia no read yet Jampi is playing a bit lurky and reactive, when I played with him in my newbie game he was much more proactive and died night 1 as a result. Not seeing any of his analysis here so ill give him some more time but if he doesn't do anything leaning scum. I always think oats is scum so far except in Carnival Cruise game, so I don't even know if it's a good read but he's generally hard to read since he just spams the ever living shit out of people and it has no alignment indications
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On June 10 2013 09:01 VayneAuthority wrote: I quoted your post and tried to make the best sense I could of your questions. They really weren't clear in my eyes. oops. Oh fuck me, not reading the thread 'properly'. Well I was reading, your back and forth with oats trying to work out who was answering and who was evading or looking busy, then stutters and BH popped out of nowhere... and I ignored my own posts reply... {blush}
as said your recent posts (the ones i did focus on reading) satisfy(for now) what I was trying to get earlier, aka stuff that I think I can analyse to see if your brain is engaged and scum hunting, or just dodging.
+ Show Spoiler +This is possibly a clarification or not as needed. Most of that post defines how you talk about "Oh we get zero information without flips... blah blah..." and looks to me like way of saying nothing but making posts. With reference to this post of yours, which worried, with its to me false claim of zero information. + Show Spoiler +On June 09 2013 15:25 VayneAuthority wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2013 15:22 ShiaoPi wrote: I am intersted in getting sylencia back here right now. What is your stance on my campaign? Null until everyone votes, if there's just one mayor and everyone votes him we gain zero info, thats what scum wants. @Vayne The question was. " Independent of how the votes pan out, because sometimes at the end of the day there is one no brainer candidate. If we discussed the mayoral campaign, and found out who was shy about commenting during the day before the result was clear, would that help find scum or would it as you seem to suggest yield 'zero information'. "I can now make the point clearer... Just recently the idea of voting, hapa appeared... (which may or may not have surprised some) If we had discussed the mayoral campaign in more depth earlier, and found out who was shy about commenting during the day before the result was clear, would that help find scum or would it as you seem to suggest yield 'zero information'. What I was wanted was reasoned answers from you, on something, on anything, because at that time I hadn't seen them. Your back and forth with oats and the stuff since is what I was actually seeking to get to happen. Now there are some posts by you with content.
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@people who think they understand setup balance. I am happy with my hapa vote, but have an unresolved issue of the trade offs involved.
Re the implications of these two posts. + Show Spoiler +On June 10 2013 06:29 VayneAuthority wrote: remember that this is semi-closed setup so we dont even know if theres a medic or anything. Getting voted as mayor is pretty much a death sentence and I think BH sees it the same way I do. Don't want a fucking target on my back to start the game. On June 10 2013 06:39 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 06:29 VayneAuthority wrote: remember that this is semi-closed setup so we dont even know if theres a medic or anything. Getting voted as mayor is pretty much a death sentence and I think BH sees it the same way I do. Don't want a fucking target on my back to start the game. Setup-speculation wise, I'd imagine the mayor would have some sort of veteran or bodyguard mechanic. Else it would just be really poor game design and de-incentivize any vets from wanting to be elected.
You can't "de-incentivize any vets from wanting to be elected" if you don't tell them what the mechanic is and we have not been told. The vets (eg BH?) however might be worried about whether or not it is a poisoned chalice. What the powers actually are does not effect that choice. I personally suspect, that unless there is incentive for a vet to be mayor, and it is not quite as Vayne says a death sentence then it would be a bit bastardy('poor game design'), but I know I have no idea what is and isn't "normal" (I even proved it in my first post ) One point at which my brain goes WTF is on this question, how does the mayor and its powers likely balance out the games size issues.(11 is to me an odd number for a game size.) To be sure I have the correct balance in how sure I am a 'candidate is town', vs 'the skill' with which they will use the powers (or if the, towny town mayor, lacked skill how reliably they will do what the informed town tells them too? )
I think I could do with some well informed rationally justified speculation on the powers and the condition..., no hurry. I have as I suggested my own guesses, that I based the vote for hapa on, and at the moment he ticks both my boxes.
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I do have to stop making my first reads based on the users name... Trouble is I keep being right... + Show Spoiler +Name+long long silence => lame joke was incoming I user hope gravity man appreciates the gravity of choosing to be the most fashionably late entrant and can now live up to it.
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On June 10 2013 10:47 GravityMan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 10:43 AxleGreaser wrote:I do have to stop making my first reads based on the users name... Trouble is I keep being right... + Show Spoiler +Name+long long silence => lame joke was incoming I user hope gravity man appreciates the gravity of choosing to be the most fashionably late entrant and can now live up to it. What exactly does my entrance to the thread have to do with living up to what people may or may not expect of me?
I am not sure what you are asking perhaps because you are not sure what I said. so...
(outside of the newbies games) In my experience people typically turn up in threads late, either because of actually true IRL issues. or because they estimate themselves to be a good enough player, that they can turn up late, and either through reputation, but in your case as you are a smurf, through their actions in the thread establish their innocence enough to live through the first lynch.
This has side effect benefit in say BHs case of increasing the chances he will live through the night.
Turning up late, if you are scum, like lurking is a strategy that might be used to avoid giving input until you see the lay of the land (who has time to play how well this game) and work out how to position your scum strategy in the game. As it can benefit scum, it is a thing they would want to do, however as it is thing they would want to do people not giving input (by lurking, turning up late) looks scummy. Because it looks scummy, scum tend not to do it...etc unto infinite recursion, hence what i label as WIFOM. While it is WIFOM the conditional probabilities are not entirely null.
it thus changes my expectations of you.
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very Late (unimportant?) EBWOP
On June 10 2013 10:43 AxleGreaser wrote:I do have to stop making my first reads based on the users name... Trouble is I keep being right... + Show Spoiler +Name+long long silence => lame joke was incoming I usersure hope gravity man appreciates the gravity of choosing to be the most fashionably late entrant and can now live up to it.
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On June 10 2013 11:36 GravityMan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2013 11:20 AxleGreaser wrote:On June 10 2013 10:47 GravityMan wrote:On June 10 2013 10:43 AxleGreaser wrote:I do have to stop making my first reads based on the users name... Trouble is I keep being right... + Show Spoiler +Name+long long silence => lame joke was incoming I user hope gravity man appreciates the gravity of choosing to be the most fashionably late entrant and can now live up to it. What exactly does my entrance to the thread have to do with living up to what people may or may not expect of me? I am not sure what you are asking perhaps because you are not sure what I said. so... (outside of the newbies games) In my experience people typically turn up in threads late, either because of actually true IRL issues. or because they estimate themselves to be a good enough player, that they can turn up late, and either through reputation, but in your case as you are a smurf, through their actions in the thread establish their innocence enough to live through the first lynch. This has side effect benefit in say BHs case of increasing the chances he will live through the night. Turning up late, if you are scum, like lurking is a strategy that might be used to avoid giving input until you see the lay of the land (who has time to play how well this game) and work out how to position your scum strategy in the game. As it can benefit scum, it is a thing they would want to do, however as it is thing they would want to do people not giving input (by lurking, turning up late) looks scummy. Because it looks scummy, scum tend not to do it...etc unto infinite recursion, hence what i label as WIFOM. While it is WIFOM the conditional probabilities are not entirely null. it thus changes my expectations of you. Your explanation is somewhat sufficient, thank you for the clarification. What is not clear to me however, is your actual read of me. Do you regard me as scum or town currently, based on what little you know of me and what I have posted in this thread? I assume you would regard me differently if I were another person, so let me also ask you: if I were a well-known player who is known for strong scumhunting skills how would you regard me given my posting being exactly the same?
Gravity man appears to have no allergy to copious words. Thus most of my reply are in spoilers as they are not likely to be useful the thread at large but I expect them to communicate with you(gravman). I have certain affinity for things robotic and computational and when I explain things computers(not people) usually always understand me. (I write bug free code!(yeah right)) + Show Spoiler [nature of the answer] + If this doesnt make sense sorry, it means I made a wrong assumption/guess. Ok. Low hanging fruit questions are a useful commodity. They can be used to check the operational efficacy of low hanging computers. I try not to waste those questions by answering them. This for instance answers a question not asked. The above paragraph, will either acks(geek speak(makes sense)) or it doesn't.
+ Show Spoiler [Kind of Reads of GravityWell] +These are 'kind of reads' I think they provide the required information anyway. How to read Smurfs 101. Well BHs diagram + Show Spoiler + clearly does not apply as there is not "What they do as" as we have no history data for and until you flip we don't know which one you are this time. However what we need to do is relabel that diagram as What is hard for scum to do. What town really cant have a reason for doingNow the problem is, there are things that it is hard for newbie player to do as scum that are not hard for an experienced one. So we simply can not yet make use of the diagram unless we tweak it some more. Given an estimate of how good this player is: What is hard for scum to do. What town really cant have a reason for doingSo armed with that diagram I need an estimate of how good you are, before I work out what of your posts goes in the What is hard for scum to do. part of the diagram or the other...dum dum da dah. here is where for me it gets interesting. A large part of your opening post, can be written off by some, (as non productive fluff and nonsense), it actually is a claim, but not he usual kind. It is claim regarding your facility and capabilities with language and the thoughts inside. As such it can well be relevant to: Given an estimate of how good this player is: What is hard for scum to do. These: Questions to hapa: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18852266Are good questions, in the sense that hapas answer to them will give me a stronger read on him. That you can identify good questions, also indicates that you are a capable player. Does it yet meet the criteria What is hard for you if you are scum to do?Well as my read on how good you are, is good enough, I am not really going to say, except so far so good. A next test will be yes, you asked hapa the right questions to ask hapa, for me a next test will be how well you choose who else to ask questions of. I will also say on this point that there thigns that if newbie player does them then What town really cant have a reason for doingbut sometimes if the player is better, they choose to do things ... Hmm IIRC, palmer claims all the time, I think he once stated in thread he couldnt talk right now because he was busy posting in the QT...., now you would have to be really dumb before that was scum slip but not many townies do that.
+ Show Spoiler [second pargrahs answer] + You asked: I assume you would regard me differently if I were another person, so let me also ask you: if I were a well-known player who is known for strong scumhunting skills how would you regard me given my posting being exactly the same?
Assumptions are dangerous things and let you, as you perceive me, to accidentally see false thoughts in my head. (its also how the tricksiest scum I can imagine, set people up, so far i am yet to be sure they (such very tricksy scum) exist.)
hmm: pedant: "I assume you would regard me differently if I were another person," if you were another person id regard you differently because you would play differently in this game.
ahh but you want me to assume somehow a different person made the same posts? partly see above regarding hard for scum to do depends on how good the person is.
I expect there is a significant probability you are "a well-known player who is known for strong scumhunting skills" so your question is a bit moot due to faulty premise/assumption.
However if i knew which player you were, it would reduce the error margin in the estimate I have of how good you are: I would (because it is part of how I hunt scum ) still apply the 'hard to do as scum test', but with a better estimate of how hard that would be for you.
Further by knowing which specific player you were I could go and read your previous play, and look for things that I thought you would find hard to change that were intrinsic and natural to you and how you play as scum and town. However as the sample size of such measures is small that has dangers of error. Thus I like words usually lots of them so Bhs original categories are for me more like.
Things this particular player frequently/usually/moreoften does as scum but are also consider robust and unlikely to vary over time and RL circumstance. Discount needs to be applied for how old the meta is blah blah blah... lots can go wrong. Finally from some reading i have done on evolutionary biology, humans have evolved as social animals, some RL humans have always been scummy, and so when they went to stab the mamoth (a risky task) some humans always happened to stab last... other humans ferreted out these scum. The scum and the town evolved... it is called a red queen race in the literature. Thus, simply, gut instincts, gut reads, actually work. If I knew who you were and had long enough experience reading you and testing that, I might be able to do my 'wet finger test'.
Wet finger test: For some payers, I read their posts one at a time out of context, look in my gut and say "scum" or "town" whichever one doesn't make me feel queezy. If most or all posts are one or the other that is their alignment no matter what the wizz kids(local experts) say.
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On June 10 2013 11:36 GravityMan wrote:
I assume you would regard me differently if I were another person, so let me also ask you: if I were a well-known player who is known for strong scumhunting skills how would you regard me given my posting being exactly the same?
I just came across the post where vayne explains he cant understand my posts. To people in that position: One solution is we discuss things.
My previous post was me answering to you questions you asked. I spoilered it a lot, as I expect a significant number of posters wont like reading it all and it would waste their time.
As you asked the question, if you don't like the answer try again.
If other people have a related or even the same question, ask it, the answer you get would be different.
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Fucking LOL....
On June 10 2013 15:44 Oatsmaster wrote:Why is BH being SO chill??? Like no ego anywhere to be seen, no flame wars. Show nested quote + And of course I'm the best, most experienced, and most intelligent player here, Found the ego. Still not as much as before. Im not used to this. Go back to that BH. Whats the point of you praising VA BH? Whos scum BH?
oats> Why is BH being SO chill??? You so silly, he just told you. a couple of posts back... BH> Obviously, his meta speculation is unfounded, since my 3p game (so far, at least) has been characterized by strident aggressive play.
See: he is so chill, because he is not 3P.
oats> Whos scum BH? BH>##vote oatsmaster
On June 10 2013 15:49 Oatsmaster wrote: why. Why am I always the one to get unexplained votes. Every game man.
because you asked so nicely for someone (BH this time) to vote you?
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+ Show Spoiler +On June 10 2013 15:31 Blazinghand wrote: I consider myself and Hapa to be the two vets here. We both play a strong town game and use our votes in a valuable way. Although Hapa differs from me in his style (I find myself typically playing a more strident game), he nonetheless uses his vote to great effect. I'm reasonably certain Hapa is town from his inquisitive posting, and his comment on me being 3p, in retrospect, doesn't seem like the kind of comment scum would make.
Now that I think about it, I'm beginning to think it's actually a towntell. I'm fairly certain a scum player who sees Blazinghand playing in a different way will push him in a sidelong way but not say he's 3p. Hapa saw me playing in a different way, but Hapa knows how I play as scum, and this isn't it. It seems a reasonable though process to say "BH is acting different, but not like the scum BH I know. Is he 3p?", and although I gave him some crap for it, it's not a good move for him to make as scum. Obviously, his meta speculation is unfounded, since my 3p game (so far, at least) has been characterized by strident aggressive play.
Hapa is certainly smart and experienced enough to fool me if he's scum, but this kind of excited utterance reveals to me that he actually has a town mindset. He's a smart guy and is one of the few people truly capable of using the mayor position properly.
##mayorify: hapahauli
As for VA, I have been nothing but impressed by his play that I've seen. He's been a capable scumhunter, and he utterly hoodwinked me in Les Mafia. Whereas most of the player list is cluttered with jubjubs and followers (if you're reading this, I'm not talking about you, I'm talking about the other guys), VA is smart. He's not a veteran in terms of games played but for his excellent play in my interactions with him I consider him a vet. That being said, the guy DID utterly hoodwink me, which means the fact that I have a townread on him is meaningless. I can't catch him when he's scum-- or at least, not yet. Anyone that good I'd keep an eye on-- but if he's town, he can use the power wisely. Given my strong townread on hapa though I see no reason to entrust VA with the power.
And of course I'm the best, most experienced, and most intelligent player here, so I'd naturally consider myself for the job. It's just not in the cards for me this game, though. Hapa's willing to do it, and he's town, so the man's got my vote.
Note i too am not interested at this time in looking for the 3P if there was one, personally id be guessing they were smoke to make 11 look plausibly balanced when mayor was the answer. (but I am bad at that kind of guessing) So before 3P is on the agenda Id like to have some indication there was one... besides with the scum hunting time spent on mayor voting after our sloooooow start, I feel we are behind on the day.
But BH just in case you hadn't noticed, there are multiple kinds of 3P in this game (SK+survivor), and the size of this game is (probably) different to your previous games, and so comparison about whether in the past, in probably different contexts, whether or not you were 3p, strident as an indicator for what you rolled you is not, to me, useful.
but yeah basically your post is fine with me, but I dont like finding broken logic in your or hapas posts. it makes me go hmmmm,
Oats.... different bucket oats does oats things. This time I LOL'd
@Blazinghand Also a question. As it is your Venn diagram I keep using, I thought I ought ask you about it. if you rolled any particular alignment in the next game(assume Im host). And I pmed you after you had got it with random choice of you had to be 'strident' or 'not strident', do you think you could choose to play that way.
If in that game you could choose arbitrarily, how much attention should I pay to whether you are strident or not in this game, especially seeing as your the one that pointed it out. (well hapa started it)
Also just to be clear, from memory I think your game as whole has been changing across multiple games. Several experienced players in completed games seem to be playing differently over time, marv has been like a hot cold roller door,
basically while I love your diagram and will quote it a lot.... I think this meta stuff is harder to use than simply 'strident' or not. "A diagram has got to know its limitations" (DHarry)
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On June 10 2013 17:03 Blazinghand wrote: Oh yeah, I could play however I want-- I am a talented guy. I mean obviously meta has its limits. The Venn diagram is just a guide mostly to say "ignore this part". not everything outside the orange is relevant, but the orange is guaranteed irrelevant.
yeah I knew were talented, what I wanted to check, if (how easily) you would admit to being that talented. As I perceive things you doing so was a risk. ta. I am slowly getting better at working out which bits to ignore. The venn diagram is as you say only a guide, what I like about it is it is the bit in the middle of so much of how to play mafia.
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Dear hosts does Vayne have two mayoral Votes? Sylencia and hapa. + Show Spoiler +On June 10 2013 17:41 Blazinghand wrote: Yeah you know what, I don't buy Oats logic at all for not buying my hapa townread and also voting me. If he really thinks I'm scum, his objection to my hapa townread wouldn't be based on the idea of hapa as scum pushing a non-scum blazinghand. Whatever flaws Oats may have as a player, this chain of logic really doesn't make sense to me. You can say you think we both can't be scum, and I'm scummier, but that still doesn't explain why you don't buy the logic in my statement of a townread on hapa. The scenario in which my townread and the logic behind it are not correct (ie, i'm town and hapa is scum) shouldn't really be prevelant in your mind if you really think I'm scum.
I just can't square any of your explanation with "I think blazinghand is scum, and i don't buy his townread on hapa since hapa could be scum and pushing blazinghand who isn't scum". You have backtracked how sure you are that I'm scum, which is clever, but you also state that hapa would be making a genuine read as scum. I don't see a town perspective that leads to this. I don't see it at all.
##vote: oatsmaster Dear BlazingHand you may be talented, but there is a voting thread.
On June 10 2013 18:19 Blazinghand wrote:Oh, absolutely. As scum if you can exclusively inhabit the orange zone you will highly successful. While you're here, i was wondering if you could update your reasoning for voting Oats beyond what you initially said (link). Weighing in on what I said specifically would also be nice.
Um first up. You have actually read that stuff in that post. (not just that I voted...right?) I was playing with myself (pun intended). I was the only person in the thread. So I started posting stuff. For people to pick on or whatever. k. Huh?
yeah I will weigh in but its going to hurt.
mentioned earlier in spoiler reply to gravityman I mentioned wet finger reads.
I don't have them for just anyone. I usually don't have them for oats, even though I played with him a lot, most of my feel for his scum game from playing with him is old and from His second newbie, so Id expect he changed. I will have read other games he played too... still.. normally not wet finger read material.
However as I read this latest exchange, I didn't get a sense of him trying to achieve a purpose other than his stated one. However in terms of finding scum I am starting to have to look under the rocks to find scum posting in the thread.
I will try harder,
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one problem is I already had views on Hapas towniness. They colour everything I see, so if at some point in the analysis I try and guess is it reasonable for someone else to either see or not see what I do it gets messy fast.
On June 10 2013 18:19 Blazinghand wrote:Oh, absolutely. As scum if you can exclusively inhabit the orange zone you will highly successful. While you're here, i was wondering if you could update your reasoning for voting Oats beyond what you initially said (link). Weighing in on what I said specifically would also be nice.
First, in terms of hapa reaction to you being different
On June 10 2013 06:14 Hapahauli wrote: Are you a 3rd party or something? You sound so... different.
Your logic. goes like: hapa waves 3P at you... "If he were scum, he'd be infinitely more cautious about pushing a guy like me, " Better yet why would a Hapa, who is a likely mayor if he is scum wave that at you. He IMO cant as scum want to lynch you, hed nk you sometime and try and get you to share the blame for the lynches the rest. I can propose, he might think he needed to push you a bit to look genuine. hard to drink.
However what I feel, is "inquisitiveness". I'd do that as the less hard I push you then see what happens the cleaner I can interpret the response. FYI: I also push harder on occasions. Scum can want soft pushes too, but they smell like seeing what mud will stick. So what does the quality of the read of hapa mean about you or Oats.
Re BH: Finding hapa as town using that was not something I saw for myself. Even though you pointed it out its not something you talked me into.
For you to be scum you need to be working pretty hard to find your town reads to find that. This makes it harder than average to drink. (do remember you claimed to be talented) I still claim its harder than average to drink (AKA I don't think your that talented.) + Show Spoiler +{go on object and claim you really are talented enough to fake that!}
Re Oats: Thats harder. As i understand it he though hapa as as towny as i do and .... problem: I cant work out what hes thinking. Normally when hes scum he is thinking. So IDK in some cack handed way that it makes no sense means ...
I will try some more...
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On June 10 2013 18:19 Blazinghand wrote:Oh, absolutely. As scum if you can exclusively inhabit the orange zone you will highly successful. While you're here, i was wondering if you could update your reasoning for voting Oats beyond what you initially said (link). Weighing in on what I said specifically would also be nice.
Did I answer you yet? Weighing in on which bit of what you said with oats. I think I addressed the central thesis, which is how do I see that read of hapa, and what if anything does it imply about you? I imagine knowing what is important is important.
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On June 10 2013 19:21 AxleGreaser wrote: one problem is I already had views on Hapas towniness. They colour everything I see, so if at some point in the analysis I try and guess is it reasonable for someone else to either see or not see what I do it gets messy fast.
[...]
Re Oats: Thats harder. As i understand it he though hapa as as towny as i do and .... problem: I cant work out what hes thinking. Normally when hes scum he is thinking. So IDK in some cack handed way that it makes no sense means ...
I will try some more...
Apparently I couldnt work out what i was thinking either.
Ok: oats exchange with you did not feel scum to me .... I am missing an ingredient. you say: Here you conclude: BH: I don't see a town perspective that leads to this. I don't see it at all.
See the struck out bit from a previous post of mine. you wont find a town perspective in those words either. I had brain fart.
Can you show what scum plan oats had in that interaction with you? Was he scum trying to get you lynched? Would oats try that? Was he scum trying to see if he could throw some mud look busy and leave.
near as i can tell he got hold the idea in this post http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18853635 and didnt let go.
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prequel: as I wrote this, I can feel in my bones, I will be brain farting this morning. If what is say is more that usual ask, at sometime appropriate. Were kinda busy now. ==== Ok, I am here again. its 9am where I live barring coffees, I should be here for Lynch.
I have read the thread once. As a reminder to myself and the thread, stuff has happened between my last post and here. (yeah obv is obv) but no matter how hard I or you try everybody ought read this bit again after lynch. (yeah obv is obv) I am still rubbing sleep out of my eyes. The sorts of things i wont see is,second order effects, which people didnt push stuff, but muddied the waters.
Anyways: First order of business, because for me its simplest. I have not seen anything I noticed that, in anyway convinced me to change my mayor vote. So vote on Hapa stays, and is reaffirmed as current.
Hapa For mayor. + Show Spoiler [ignorable as long as hapa is mayor] + Lots of stuff hasn't been said about this: so i will quickly. What if the mayoral power is immunity to cop checks.(although our cop having claimed probably wont get to be that useful.) Anyway I always liked hapa for mayor, for the other obv reasons but also because (even I was wrong and he's scum) I think wed still work it out, as he posts so many reads. Conversely putting someone like Vayne, who Bh says fooled him last time in as mayor where powers might leave us up the creek. Also given Vayne closed, style of play, nah not mayor. Too much risk. Remember way back when I (I think) flagged risk benefit analysis for mayor, this is the kind of stuff thinking I meant. Hapa for mayor.
Potentially viable(someone wanted/was pushing them) lynches when I went to bed, included : Re: Oats vs BH that occupied me last up. BH: Reading through the thread once. Gut read. I still wouldn't lynch him today, period. hes probably townier than that but that is irrelevant if I am just not going to vote to lynch him. Oats: Like I said I cant usually gut read oats, as i have to read him(the whole thread in context) specifically only thinking about his motives. However, didnt want to lynch him yesterday wouldnt today.
There had been stuff on jampi, I wasn't keen at the time, so I didn't vote, indeed for time i was worried by the looming concept of lurker lynches. We had two back then, Shiaopi and DP. DP is being replaced, so that ought be off in case the replacement plays and is readable town. Shioapi appearing like that after so long rubs me wrong, but i think its me thing not a proper feel.
Vayne: I know i cant do a gut read on this, but logic tells me we cant lynch a cop claim much to much risk. basically Not Lynch: Elapsed time is very likely to resolve the situation with a high degree of certainty, and scum is given harder choices. whereas lynch: if he's the cop, then we lose the cop AND scum is free to kill a high priority good player target. That would be bad.
So i cant vote vayne:
##vote: jampidampi
A said i am here. I will be trying to critically analyse the newer stuff said on jampi unlessomeones talking. Indeed the trhead probably moved since i started writing.
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Actually changed my mind, going to find smaller things to respond to, going turtle and thinking hard wont work in this time frame.
On June 11 2013 06:08 Stutters695 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 05:16 VayneAuthority wrote: thats fine hap, if no roleblock is claimed tomorrow kill BH. If his scumslip is real scum is goon, framer, gf team so my role isnt that great anyway. im dead tonight unless we have medic so glhf. my last post for today Sorry I'm still catching up. What scum slip/how does a rb claim affect it? Don't both sides have a potential roleblock? I don't know for sure, Vayne would have to explain what he meant but it seems he doesn't. (aka please do) I saw that as I read here is what i recall of my guess. Vayne is heavily into vote analysis, kill analysis, and guessign at the setup. it appears to work where he comes from, how it can work here where scum players make their decision for different priorities remains a mystery to me. My guess was, BH was saying stuff about what ought happen, Vayne (guessed) BH was scum, and that he knew what roles scum had, and so was doing whatever it was BH did just before that as part of some scum plan, and that somehow this had let vayne reverse engineer the setup. it didnt read as valid analysis. I could be wrong but it seemed to align with a vayne survival motivation.
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On June 11 2013 06:50 Blazinghand wrote: the point is at the start of the game I thought VA would be a good town player.
Curious, i think your observation was of his scum game, could he have been a good scum player, whose skills wouldn't translate well to being good town. If he played his town game with meta that looked like the scum game you played with him, would it have been good town play?
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On June 11 2013 07:47 Hapahauli wrote: half this thread is annoyingly lurky
yeah, at the moment, 2hrs 20 to Lynch and i just spammed the thread !!
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On June 11 2013 08:41 Hapahauli wrote: make sure you vote in the voting thread Axle
brain fart.
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On June 11 2013 10:13 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 10:12 GravityMan wrote:On June 11 2013 10:09 Blazinghand wrote: brb dinner Is there some way for you to prove to those of us present that you are actually consuming nutrients at the moment? A picture would suffice. here, I just took this one as you can see it's quite a dinner
yep like before you're town then? You could try variety in your diet.
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On June 11 2013 11:16 Hapahauli wrote: Well I'm going to condemn someone tonight. Who should it be?
I don't understand the implications of the mayor rules yet. I have never seen their like before. But yes I think using the once per game mayor power up, is likely best. it could be game ender if left.
at first blush, target selection using its similarity to normal vigi seems right.
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On June 11 2013 11:29 Hapahauli wrote: Also for the record, I'm going to use my condemn power as late as possible in the cycle. Give us all enough time to start posting and make this a useful 24 hours.
thanks. (really) I first need to know. Who to condemn may be different question to who to lynch, (vigis AFAIK normally target a slightly different demographic) but vigis also usually cant hold an open discussion to find information.
So I really suggest (to myself mainly as its obv?) that we are about to have 24 hr day scum hunting discussion ended by Hapa shooting someone.
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On June 11 2013 11:27 ShiaoPi wrote: for what it is worth i suggest shooting stutters. Have not played with him so i am unfamiliar with his meta. but he has been flying perfectly under the radar and not contributed much
+ Show Spoiler [explained in Axle_English (aka lots)] +Last night just before your post, I was debating whether to raise the spectre of lurker lynching you. As that makes it too easy for scum and still 12 hrs to go, I went to bed.(I probably have a screen shot of it somewhere.) To some extent the problem I had with your play at that time still exists. However, even though since then you posted some, even ran what looked like an unlikely mayoral campaign hereThat post contains, some analysis demonstrating you have demonstrated ability to participate in the thread but had not done that much during the day. Thus in terms of the BH diagram + Show Spoiler +but relabelled What is hard for scum to do. What town really cant have a reason for doingThis game TBMK does not have a whole lot of What town really cant have a reason for doing that is what was stumping town jampidampi at the end. What Find in you, perhaps what you just found in stutters, is player who has less green they really should be able to provide me. (In this case the greens and reads are only... What is hard not real easy for scum to do.) In your case the first part of the day was only hard in that you had be able to post in a relaxed enough way(?) that hapa got town read on you for it. (at the time an EARLY D1 read) That your play for most of the day chose to do things that are easy for scum to do, makes me go hmm.
TLDR;
How come you lurked for so long yesterday. It makes you look scummy to me. It especially makes you look scummy when later on you showed it was potentially possible for you not to Lurk but analyse. (Contrast with Sylencia, who to me is just Sylencia, and not Sylencia quieter than normal cos scared.)
What say you?
@Thread and BTW thread lurking tonight will in my eyes convict you. Dont do that. pls.
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@Shiaopi Sorry seemed self evident when i wrote it as i quoted shiaopi also it started life without the spoiler hence said: Last night just before your post, I was debating whether to raise the spectre of lurker lynching you.
On June 11 2013 12:27 AxleGreaser wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 11:27 ShiaoPi wrote: for what it is worth i suggest shooting stutters. Have not played with him so i am unfamiliar with his meta. but he has been flying perfectly under the radar and not contributed much + Show Spoiler [explained in Axle_English (aka lots)] +Last night just before your post, I was debating whether to raise the spectre of lurker lynching you. As that makes it too easy for scum and still 12 hrs to go, I went to bed.(I probably have a screen shot of it somewhere.) To some extent the problem I had with your play at that time still exists. However, even though since then you posted some, even ran what looked like an unlikely mayoral campaign hereThat post contains, some analysis demonstrating you have demonstrated ability to participate in the thread but had not done that much during the day. Thus in terms of the BH diagram + Show Spoiler +but relabelled What is hard for scum to do. What town really cant have a reason for doingThis game TBMK does not have a whole lot of What town really cant have a reason for doing that is what was stumping town jampidampi at the end. What Find in you, perhaps what you just found in stutters, is player who has less green they really should be able to provide me. (In this case the greens and reads are only... What is hard not real easy for scum to do.) In your case the first part of the day was only hard in that you had be able to post in a relaxed enough way(?) that hapa got town read on you for it. (at the time an EARLY D1 read) That your play for most of the day chose to do things that are easy for scum to do, makes me go hmm. TLDR; @Shisopi How come you lurked for so long yesterday. It makes you look scummy to me. It especially makes you look scummy when later on you showed it was potentially possible for you not to Lurk but analyse. (Contrast with Sylencia, who to me is just Sylencia, and not Sylencia quieter than normal cos scared.) What say you? @Thread and BTW thread lurking tonight will in my eyes convict you. Dont do that. pls.
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On June 11 2013 12:57 Hapahauli wrote: Oh 'doh I can't read.
I'll let Shaio answer for himself, but I will say that he's not very active early-game in his town or scum games. What's distinguishable about his meta is his attitude and bravery.
For example in his scum-games, he's absurdly passive and really tries to blend in. His mayoral campaign in the early game (even if based on cookies), is the exact opposite of that.
Also, his case on Vayne seems genuine. Even if it was incorrect, I can sympathize with the analysis, and I can't see it being malicious coming from Shaio.
{Correct or not} is not in some sense highly statistically revealing , (<see both nots) lots of town lynches (let alone wagons) is wrong a lot of the time (about half in tight games) (referring to my earlier post re BH vs Oats and the huge spoiler thing to grav man) Who voted for jampi and how/why, is one question.
Also as it is pretty unlikely (IMO) Scum would fake claim cop at the time Vayne did, pretty much over rules any feel reads I had before that.
Who voted for also very probable town Vayne and how/why, is another question.
When asking how why, the question is, is it consistent with who they are and normally do things.
I wish to state again in the light of mayor mechanics. We are going to be scum hunting like blue arsed flies all night and interacting, and not lurking. Often i suspect at night is when the votes leading up to the lynch get quietly analysed. Don't let the change game flow distract you(@everybody) from doing that too.+ Show Spoiler +No thats not me telling you how to suck eggs hapa
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On June 11 2013 13:34 goodkarma wrote: Hi all. It was feeling like it was either I replace in or DP gets modkilled. I know how much it sucks for someone to get modkilled, so here I am. Unfortunately though, I will not be able to be fully caught up until tomorrow.
A couple quick things.:
Lynching Jampi for being lurkish, with no other real second candidate, was very bad. We're now left with little information to go off of next lynch cycle, so let's please not do this day 2...
As far as who Hapa should "vigi" with his mayor powers, I haven't seen anyone so far that looks very scummy. In many ways, I'd rather you hold off the shot. If you can find two people you're confident are town, it's very likely at least one of them will survive until tomorrow. It's not like should you die the shot dies with you, as is normally the case with vigis and one reason why vigis like to shoot on night one. But if you absolutely must vigi someone tonight, I'd hit one of the lurkers that is likely not going to be any easier to read in upcoming days: Sylencia or Stutters. I would much prefer Sylencia over Stutters given I do believe from the past games we've played I could get some grasp of Stutter's alignment later this game.
I'll give everything a good read-through tomorrow. Good night.
We dont have time to mess around. + Show Spoiler + Not that you are so far and you have to read and... whatever. just dont lurk k.
You say: "In many ways, I'd rather you hold off the shot. " "It's not like should you die the shot dies with you, as is normally the case with vigis"
made me go hmm but in a nice way. As it made me think of this.
Question: Those statements minimise the risk side unless there is something I don't know didn't think of.
Whats the expected benefit of shooting and when is it highest. However if we shoot tonight, or later night, the ratio of town to scum tends to drift in the direction where even random shots hit scum more often. As town thread information grows over time, through more discussion and flip analysis, you'd next think the shot gets more and more accurate. As we slowly lose the better players the mayors and the town informing them get derpier (sorry D2 players) the decision whether to shoot tonight or not is not IMO as clear cut as I thought.
Rough feel guess is N2, may be better. What it will depend on is how much analysis we get out of players tonight and whether we choose to shoot people who don't push in this 24hrs. {hint: Hapa thats the whip handle i just gave back to you}
Is that right, or did I brain fart. (I often dont in math just engrish and gammar)
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On June 11 2013 13:04 ShiaoPi wrote: axle am i reading you correctly that you are calling me out for being somewhat passive after the game started while I could have went in with a bang as in doing heavy analysis right off the bat?
also you disagree with me voting jampi for the reawons i stated? juet to make sure, i got you correctly?
yes thats what i am calling you out for. I grammar failed and didnt put the ? on this >How come you lurked for so long yesterday?
So it was a question.
the argument problem is if you were scum (that is easier for you to do than lots of analysis) it is also happens to be the argument for why the person you are pressuring stutters lurked. (lurking is easy to do even if eventually it attracts attention)
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On June 11 2013 14:07 Oatsmaster wrote: Its 27 pages.
Its not that hard to at least have 1 scum read.
Hapa whos scum...
is it hard to have scum read if you also want it to be a correct.
it just struck me it might be easier to have a scum read if you didn't care about correct.
Do you have any thoughts on what would be easier?
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On June 11 2013 14:21 ShiaoPi wrote: dont shoot too early. use the 24hs for more discussion. i want sylencia and stutters here at least. having a case from bh on oats would also be helpful in deciding whether bh is just bad atm or scum.
@axle: I dont think we should hold off shooting today. I am pretty sure on hapas townieness, dunno if we will have another mayor with whom i have that high confidence of being town (besides me ofc). [..Deletia answer Q soon..]
Assume todays mayor is scum, How much real choice does hapa have who he shoots today. "He" may have some, but if we chose to say have a player run in thread election N2 and decide today that tomorrows mayor will do the nk... N2...then that pretty much leaves the nk in town/thread hands. if scum got the role tomorrow theyd be brave to defy town.
I dunno. its an idea.
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EBWOP [..Deletia..]
Sorry muddled. deletia was of a opinion I really not sure of I have not yet counted out the paths.
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more brain fart
@Oats
On June 11 2013 14:22 AxleGreaser wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 14:07 Oatsmaster wrote: Its 27 pages.
Its not that hard to at least have 1 scum read.
Hapa whos scum... is it hard to have scum read if you also want it to be a correct. it just struck me it might be easier to have a scum read if you didn't care about correct. Do you have any thoughts on what would be easier?
I want to understand how you think some more.
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On June 11 2013 09:25 Sylencia wrote:Ok... day 1 claim is unfortunate ##unvote is the obvious first move GravityMan: Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 01:14 GravityMan wrote: Sylencia. Hello. If you are not currently otherwise occupied, I have some queries for you that I feel would help me gain a better understand of you. If you would answer them I would be greatly pleased. Do you have any reads on scum other than this VayneAuthority? What do you make of the altercation between the Oatsmaster and this Blazinghand? You mention that you are often lynched early in other games. Why is this? 1) No, not really, everyone is acting really erratically this game and it's making things kind of difficult to work out. 2) That argument was actually rather annoying - flamefests just spam up the thread uselessly and demoralises the town side most of the time. I don't even feel like there was anything productive that came from it... 3) Lurkerish, lynchbait, scum jump on my weak cases etc. etc. Unless Jampi shows up soon (he said he would be here around now right?), I'm going to put a vote on him going mostly on Hapa's reasoning. ##vote Jampi
Syl said: 1) No, not really, everyone is acting really erratically this game and it's making things kind of difficult to work out.
please clarify the meaning of the word erratically, in what sense are what people behaving erratically. id suggest choosing one or more, person or period in the thread, as an example. Was it only the BH oats thing id prefer another example as you said everyone.
They dont have to be scum indicative. The problem is normally I read your posts and they make sense to me, that bit does not.
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On June 12 2013 05:13 Hapahauli wrote: Or if you want motivation, consider this my intent to shoot you unless you post your reads right now.
First Thankyou. (for the statement which then gets an actual response that I have not read yet... but it is response.)
In general terms. I am not sure if there is whole lot in this thread since, my last posts or even the beginning of the phase. There are only so many times i can listen to you oats and BH, saying such pearls as brb back I have to eat dinner, you so bad, you saying hear puss puss (herding cats), and oats being oats. Be very clear, that looks like mud, but um err Gravity man could have if he wanted to turned up at any time and said lets drive this thread and find scum. Syl could have turned up and asked question to clear up, and asked questions about http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18865436 any of these events. When i didn't understand the word was meant by the erratic in Syls post I asked. It looked like just an empty excuse, perhaps under pressure. If under pressure then from what. So I asked Syl answered, now that bit is good with me. Stutters could have turned up at all. So be very clear while the post counts for all those doing it went up, without a lot of stuff, that is as far as that goes.
The alternative of the people who already have been doing things, posting and eventually accusing one another and imploding is how towns lose games they should not.
for clarity, unconsolodating the rest of this post.
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On June 12 2013 03:04 GravityMan wrote: Ah, the perceived need to defend myself has distracted me from the task at hand and I have forgotten to pursue my own course of action.
Hapahauli, if you do not know the answer to my question regarding this Sylencia, perhaps someone else does. In the meantime, I will be moving on as time is quickly winding down and there is much action yet to be taken ex noctis.
Indeed you did. And for me that is a problem. You see if it was your course of action, finding scum and you were pursuing it then something that would be easier to do is remember the line of enquiry you were pursuing and then come back to it even if distracted by more immediate concerns. Whereas if you were trying to look busy, getting distracted is easier to imagine happening. Thus remembering the diagram which has only red green and orange, the above is somewhere else (aka a more complex diagram) where there are regions that are orangy red. While town can do them, and so can scum, it is is little easier to drink the wine that scum forget what they were trying to pretend to do than town forget what they were actually doing.
Anyway ...a specific question. This post was questioning blazing hand, for some purpose. (Good bad or otherwise) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18859699 Your next post is an answer to hapa http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18860245 then little more info explaining that http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18860286 and then two hours pass...
and you post this. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18861031 Now I am not asking you to justify the value of that question. Its was in keeping with the theme of the discussion at the time.
However somewhere back up there in my filter, i indicated that at times it was important to look at what isnt there as well as what is.
GravityMan, you said the questions in this post and presumably their answers were important to you. Did you get those answers to those questions.
it did confuse me for while as there was also this exchange http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18859401 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18859439
Did you get an answer to the other post? What made you no longer need the answer?
My problem is when i read through your filter and try to find an consistent thread of thought, I dont.
It makes me go Hmmm.
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On June 12 2013 07:25 VayneAuthority wrote: I mentioned this earlier but if we are to believe everyone read's then one of the afks had to be scum. Gravity has since started posting but dp/his replacement still not much...One of them pretty much has to be scum if Hapa isn't. It seemed like every person was playing every man for themself, absolutely zero semblance of any sort of scum team in this thread which leads me to believe some afk action.
My final answer before I most likely die is to shoot Gravity, BH, or GK.
If at any point blazinghand does something crazily scummy or even remotely scummy lynch him on the spot, he's already raised multiple red flags
At some point in time, we must ask the question ... Was i wrong earlier when i gave town reads to...
Hapa did it when he gave an early D1 read to Shiaopi etal (go find the post where ia sked him about how many town reads and ez reads) he clarified to me anyway, that early D1 reads do change. AKA EARLY D1 when hapa says Shiaopi so town, its not even really a back flip, later when the meaning of what is really town has changed to people trying hard, that the read changes.
Simialrly at some point we must start worrying about one another, me hapa BH oats (maybe even vayne, + Show Spoiler +is it in the tiniest possible for clever scum to see the writing comign and fake claim and just hope?) i dont actually know whats in the red orange and green bits for whats possibel for "good' players. I dont know if he would be good enough to pull that. it is the kind of epic shit ive hard that ace pulls.claiming unlynchable? and getting believed
Anyway, at some point eventually id even suspect hapa, that is not yet for me.
I dont think i like your shoot list
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On June 12 2013 07:26 Hapahauli wrote: Well I shot BH.
If there's anything you want to say, before the mod-post, floor is yours.
This is for reals?
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On June 12 2013 07:49 AxleGreaser wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 07:26 Hapahauli wrote: Well I shot BH.
If there's anything you want to say, before the mod-post, floor is yours. This is for reals?
Sorry not up with whether the thread is in a jokey eating dinner phase or not.
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On June 12 2013 07:50 VayneAuthority wrote:Axle, it would be a nice play but short lived. Once I do not die after a while it would be pretty obvious that I was scum. Here's some WIFOM for you scum, if that means I get to stay alive longer
Sorry you appear to have misunderstood what i am thinking perhaps I didnt say it right?.
yeah yeah, that was an example of once we eliminate all the much likelier easier to drink wine we come back and reevaluate every town read. If hapa made it to three man LYLO Id be :\ by then... ok? is that clearer.)
i am pretty sure in my filter somewhere I defined your status as time will sort it out just as you say, + Show Spoiler + Some other time we can discuss how and why scum might do it to buy the time, to allow the likely to be dead player more time to mess with the thread. In the specific case of you however you claimed so early in the cycle... at a towny time in the cycle as there was time to find an alternative, on avergae IMO if scum fake claimed it would be later. When they wre surer there was no way out. because to have fake claimed would have been a blooooooody big gamble. So yeah your town until well after ... ooops. I cant say when, that would be dumb.
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On June 12 2013 07:50 Hapahauli wrote: It's not for reals. I just wanted to dick with BH a bit since he's been trolling all game.
Fuck. You had me out in the WTF land holding syls hand and saying whats happening. I may know about eh orange green and red stuff, but you guys till post stuff that has me going
So yeah, thanks for fake shooting BH. (no really thanks, like actually thanks)
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On June 12 2013 07:44 Blazinghand wrote:look im ilterally still eating
brb. I am having breakfast ,
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Grav man, a number of pages back I posted this to you (before you WoS'd hi) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18868046
Even though your posting style has now changed considerably. I am still interested in understanding what the purpose of the questions in that post was. There were rather lot of questions in the post. I am having difficulty deciding which mindset would want to post those and why. I am aware as you already said here why you say you asked them: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18860286
On June 11 2013 08:02 GravityMan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 08:00 Hapahauli wrote:On June 11 2013 06:07 GravityMan wrote: Yes, that would be the post, thank you.
While you are at it, Blazinghand, are you the type to back down when admonished? Does this Hapahaulli play the role of 'thread police' often? Do you think that this Hapahauli is personally insulted by your play or shamed by it? He certainly does not seem to me ceasing communication. Like none of this has to do anything with scumhunting. BH thinks I'm town - why does it matter what his feelings about my play are? As I am not delving into past games to determine alignment, for players I may be having trouble understanding it suits me to attempt to figure out what each player is thinking, capable of, and even feeling in order to determine a specific mindset. If you find that irrelevant that is your prerogative, however I do not deem it so.
One thing I cant marry with your statement of why that is that you did not follow those up?
Since you posted that, you have again pursued BH, but without answers to the earlier questions. Why if they were GM/WoS: "In what way do you find my questions irrelevant? I am confused." didnt you seek answers.
I can see one problem there were so many question in the post i doubt anyone would answer them all.
So why ask them?
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ninja'd WoS are you there?
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On June 13 2013 02:03 GravityMan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 14:19 AxleGreaser wrote:Grav man, a number of pages back I posted this to you (before you WoS'd hi) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18868046Even though your posting style has now changed considerably. I am still interested in understanding what the purpose of the questions in that post was. There were rather lot of questions in the post. I am having difficulty deciding which mindset would want to post those and why. I am aware as you already said here why you say you asked them: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18860286On June 11 2013 08:02 GravityMan wrote:On June 11 2013 08:00 Hapahauli wrote:On June 11 2013 06:07 GravityMan wrote: Yes, that would be the post, thank you.
While you are at it, Blazinghand, are you the type to back down when admonished? Does this Hapahaulli play the role of 'thread police' often? Do you think that this Hapahauli is personally insulted by your play or shamed by it? He certainly does not seem to me ceasing communication. Like none of this has to do anything with scumhunting. BH thinks I'm town - why does it matter what his feelings about my play are? As I am not delving into past games to determine alignment, for players I may be having trouble understanding it suits me to attempt to figure out what each player is thinking, capable of, and even feeling in order to determine a specific mindset. If you find that irrelevant that is your prerogative, however I do not deem it so. One thing I cant marry with your statement of why that is that you did not follow those up? Since you posted that, you have again pursued BH, but without answers to the earlier questions. Why if they were GM/WoS: "In what way do you find my questions irrelevant? I am confused." didnt you seek answers. I can see one problem there were so many question in the post i doubt anyone would answer them all. So why ask them? Those questions were asked because I know how BH's ingame ego works and I was trying to find a way to show it to the thread, as can be seen in my written case against him. BH does not back down when dealing with anyone he feels is less skilled than him as can be seen by his constant tunneling of both me and Oats this game, and the way he talks to VA early. He is completely different when talking with Hapa and I wanted to make this evident; it is not a particularly towny way to play---completely deriding everyone's activity and efforts aside from one person. And what do you know, now that said person is dead there is absolutely no one to 'reign him in,' so he can act all troll-BH as he pleases, shit up the thread, offer no explanations for his reads and no one is around to scold him for it or make him stop that he will respond to. I asked those questions earlier as a way for me to logically come to this point while still in the GM persona without using meta to prove it. Difficult, time consuming, and artificially restraining myself I know, but it is how I resolved to play this specific game.
I have seen BH play before as have many people. Now that you have said this I have more problems.
GM:WoS: I asked those questions earlier as a way for me to logically come to this point while still in the GM persona without using meta to prove it. What do you mean by come logically to the point. Were you asking questions to get answers to them, or was the purpose of the post to ask questions, while actually logically coming to a point. Your post concludes "What I am truly unsure about is the degree to which you actually care about your ego. I would think you're more likely to discard this ego as a scum player in favor of lying, but I cannot, of course, be sure." Which looks pretty much like coming to the point of saying something.
So was the point of the post the questions or the conclusion it appears to reach and state.
if the point of it was the questions, and the thread needed those answers "trying to find a way to show it to the thread," then why didnt you need to get them answered at some time?
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@Oats There is something id like to clarify with you interactively sometime when we are both here.
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On June 13 2013 07:14 GravityMan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 07:06 AxleGreaser wrote:On June 13 2013 02:03 GravityMan wrote:On June 12 2013 14:19 AxleGreaser wrote:Grav man, a number of pages back I posted this to you (before you WoS'd hi) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18868046Even though your posting style has now changed considerably. I am still interested in understanding what the purpose of the questions in that post was. There were rather lot of questions in the post. I am having difficulty deciding which mindset would want to post those and why. I am aware as you already said here why you say you asked them: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18860286On June 11 2013 08:02 GravityMan wrote:On June 11 2013 08:00 Hapahauli wrote:On June 11 2013 06:07 GravityMan wrote: Yes, that would be the post, thank you.
While you are at it, Blazinghand, are you the type to back down when admonished? Does this Hapahaulli play the role of 'thread police' often? Do you think that this Hapahauli is personally insulted by your play or shamed by it? He certainly does not seem to me ceasing communication. Like none of this has to do anything with scumhunting. BH thinks I'm town - why does it matter what his feelings about my play are? As I am not delving into past games to determine alignment, for players I may be having trouble understanding it suits me to attempt to figure out what each player is thinking, capable of, and even feeling in order to determine a specific mindset. If you find that irrelevant that is your prerogative, however I do not deem it so. One thing I cant marry with your statement of why that is that you did not follow those up? Since you posted that, you have again pursued BH, but without answers to the earlier questions. Why if they were GM/WoS: "In what way do you find my questions irrelevant? I am confused." didnt you seek answers. I can see one problem there were so many question in the post i doubt anyone would answer them all. So why ask them? Those questions were asked because I know how BH's ingame ego works and I was trying to find a way to show it to the thread, as can be seen in my written case against him. BH does not back down when dealing with anyone he feels is less skilled than him as can be seen by his constant tunneling of both me and Oats this game, and the way he talks to VA early. He is completely different when talking with Hapa and I wanted to make this evident; it is not a particularly towny way to play---completely deriding everyone's activity and efforts aside from one person. And what do you know, now that said person is dead there is absolutely no one to 'reign him in,' so he can act all troll-BH as he pleases, shit up the thread, offer no explanations for his reads and no one is around to scold him for it or make him stop that he will respond to. I asked those questions earlier as a way for me to logically come to this point while still in the GM persona without using meta to prove it. Difficult, time consuming, and artificially restraining myself I know, but it is how I resolved to play this specific game. I have seen BH play before as have many people. Now that you have said this I have more problems. GM:WoS: I asked those questions earlier as a way for me to logically come to this point while still in the GM persona without using meta to prove it. What do you mean by come logically to the point. Were you asking questions to get answers to them, or was the purpose of the post to ask questions, while actually logically coming to a point. Your post concludes "What I am truly unsure about is the degree to which you actually care about your ego. I would think you're more likely to discard this ego as a scum player in favor of lying, but I cannot, of course, be sure." Which looks pretty much like coming to the point of saying something. So was the point of the post the questions or the conclusion it appears to reach and state. if the point of it was the questions, and the thread needed those answers "trying to find a way to show it to the thread," then why didnt you need to get them answered at some time? To be completely honest, I'm not sure what you're asking me. Can you try and rephrase it?
Aure thing that post see above. it had lots of things with ? at the end in it they are questions. Was the point of the post to ask those questions and get answers. ("show it to the thread," via answers to questions)
Was the point of the post to make statement. ("show it to the thread," via statement by you)
or something else.
If it was questions why when you didnt you get answers didnt you ask again? and just drop it.
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EBWOP
Sure thing that post see above
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On June 13 2013 07:20 Stutters695 wrote: If goodkarma doesn't come back soon can we please vig him.
When would you vig him?
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EBWOP. inline
On June 13 2013 07:20 AxleGreaser wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 07:14 GravityMan wrote:On June 13 2013 07:06 AxleGreaser wrote:On June 13 2013 02:03 GravityMan wrote:On June 12 2013 14:19 AxleGreaser wrote:Grav man, a number of pages back I posted this to you (before you WoS'd hi) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18868046Even though your posting style has now changed considerably. I am still interested in understanding what the purpose of the questions in that post was. There were rather lot of questions in the post. I am having difficulty deciding which mindset would want to post those and why. I am aware as you already said here why you say you asked them: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18860286On June 11 2013 08:02 GravityMan wrote:On June 11 2013 08:00 Hapahauli wrote:On June 11 2013 06:07 GravityMan wrote: Yes, that would be the post, thank you.
While you are at it, Blazinghand, are you the type to back down when admonished? Does this Hapahaulli play the role of 'thread police' often? Do you think that this Hapahauli is personally insulted by your play or shamed by it? He certainly does not seem to me ceasing communication. Like none of this has to do anything with scumhunting. BH thinks I'm town - why does it matter what his feelings about my play are? As I am not delving into past games to determine alignment, for players I may be having trouble understanding it suits me to attempt to figure out what each player is thinking, capable of, and even feeling in order to determine a specific mindset. If you find that irrelevant that is your prerogative, however I do not deem it so. One thing I cant marry with your statement of why that is that you did not follow those up? Since you posted that, you have again pursued BH, but without answers to the earlier questions. Why if they were GM/WoS: "In what way do you find my questions irrelevant? I am confused." didnt you seek answers. I can see one problem there were so many question in the post i doubt anyone would answer them all. So why ask them? Those questions were asked because I know how BH's ingame ego works and I was trying to find a way to show it to the thread, as can be seen in my written case against him. BH does not back down when dealing with anyone he feels is less skilled than him as can be seen by his constant tunneling of both me and Oats this game, and the way he talks to VA early. He is completely different when talking with Hapa and I wanted to make this evident; it is not a particularly towny way to play---completely deriding everyone's activity and efforts aside from one person. And what do you know, now that said person is dead there is absolutely no one to 'reign him in,' so he can act all troll-BH as he pleases, shit up the thread, offer no explanations for his reads and no one is around to scold him for it or make him stop that he will respond to. I asked those questions earlier as a way for me to logically come to this point while still in the GM persona without using meta to prove it. Difficult, time consuming, and artificially restraining myself I know, but it is how I resolved to play this specific game. I have seen BH play before as have many people. Now that you have said this I have more problems. GM:WoS: I asked those questions earlier as a way for me to logically come to this point while still in the GM persona without using meta to prove it. What do you mean by come logically to the point. Were you asking questions to get answers to them, or was the purpose of the post to ask questions, while actually logically coming to a point. Your post concludes "What I am truly unsure about is the degree to which you actually care about your ego. I would think you're more likely to discard this ego as a scum player in favor of lying, but I cannot, of course, be sure." Which looks pretty much like coming to the point of saying something. So was the point of the post the questions or the conclusion it appears to reach and state. if the point of it was the questions, and the thread needed those answers "trying to find a way to show it to the thread," then why didnt you need to get them answered at some time? To be completely honest, I'm not sure what you're asking me. Can you try and rephrase it? Sure thing, that post (Your D1 post the one I keep asking about) see above. it had lots of things with ? at the end in it they are questions. Was the point of the post(your D1 post) to ask those questions and get answers. ("show it to the thread," via answers to questions) Was the point of the post(your D1 post) to make statement. ("show it to the thread," via statement by you) or something else. If it was questions why when you didnt you get answers didnt you ask again? and just drop it.
and drop it right after Hapa asked you to but you justified the need for the questions...?
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On June 13 2013 07:36 Stutters695 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 07:21 AxleGreaser wrote:On June 13 2013 07:20 Stutters695 wrote: If goodkarma doesn't come back soon can we please vig him. When would you vig him? Immediately after the lynch.
On June 13 2013 07:37 Stutters695 wrote: And it wouldn't be me vigging, it would be Vayne. Have you been reading?
yes i have been reading: i have also been thinking.
Stutters: "If goodkarma doesn't come back soon can we please vig him." So yes Vayne will send the PM, but you say we, and it has the word soon.
So what if he does come back soon but does before the lynch....
Sounds to me more like I would have said (to pressure GK) if VK does contribute enough before the lynch then ... or somethign else if thats what was on my mind ratehr than soon.
Also why straight after the lynch ? Can you think of better time?
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EBWOP... (I hate mornings, and trying to be fast enough to be interactive, and see...)
On June 13 2013 07:43 AxleGreaser wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 07:36 Stutters695 wrote:On June 13 2013 07:21 AxleGreaser wrote:On June 13 2013 07:20 Stutters695 wrote: If goodkarma doesn't come back soon can we please vig him. When would you vig him? Immediately after the lynch. Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 07:37 Stutters695 wrote: And it wouldn't be me vigging, it would be Vayne. Have you been reading? yes i have been reading: i have also been thinking. Stutters: "If goodkarma doesn't come back soon can we please vig him." So yes Vayne will send the PM, but you say we, and it has the word soon. So what if he does not come back soon but does before the lynch.... Sounds to me more like I would have said (to pressure GK) if VK does contribute enough before the lynch then ... or somethign else if thats what was on my mind ratehr than soon. Also why straight after the lynch ? Can you think of better time?
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On June 13 2013 07:56 GravityMan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 07:20 AxleGreaser wrote:On June 13 2013 07:14 GravityMan wrote:On June 13 2013 07:06 AxleGreaser wrote:On June 13 2013 02:03 GravityMan wrote:On June 12 2013 14:19 AxleGreaser wrote:Grav man, a number of pages back I posted this to you (before you WoS'd hi) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18868046Even though your posting style has now changed considerably. I am still interested in understanding what the purpose of the questions in that post was. There were rather lot of questions in the post. I am having difficulty deciding which mindset would want to post those and why. I am aware as you already said here why you say you asked them: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18860286On June 11 2013 08:02 GravityMan wrote:On June 11 2013 08:00 Hapahauli wrote:On June 11 2013 06:07 GravityMan wrote: Yes, that would be the post, thank you.
While you are at it, Blazinghand, are you the type to back down when admonished? Does this Hapahaulli play the role of 'thread police' often? Do you think that this Hapahauli is personally insulted by your play or shamed by it? He certainly does not seem to me ceasing communication. Like none of this has to do anything with scumhunting. BH thinks I'm town - why does it matter what his feelings about my play are? As I am not delving into past games to determine alignment, for players I may be having trouble understanding it suits me to attempt to figure out what each player is thinking, capable of, and even feeling in order to determine a specific mindset. If you find that irrelevant that is your prerogative, however I do not deem it so. One thing I cant marry with your statement of why that is that you did not follow those up? Since you posted that, you have again pursued BH, but without answers to the earlier questions. Why if they were GM/WoS: "In what way do you find my questions irrelevant? I am confused." didnt you seek answers. I can see one problem there were so many question in the post i doubt anyone would answer them all. So why ask them? Those questions were asked because I know how BH's ingame ego works and I was trying to find a way to show it to the thread, as can be seen in my written case against him. BH does not back down when dealing with anyone he feels is less skilled than him as can be seen by his constant tunneling of both me and Oats this game, and the way he talks to VA early. He is completely different when talking with Hapa and I wanted to make this evident; it is not a particularly towny way to play---completely deriding everyone's activity and efforts aside from one person. And what do you know, now that said person is dead there is absolutely no one to 'reign him in,' so he can act all troll-BH as he pleases, shit up the thread, offer no explanations for his reads and no one is around to scold him for it or make him stop that he will respond to. I asked those questions earlier as a way for me to logically come to this point while still in the GM persona without using meta to prove it. Difficult, time consuming, and artificially restraining myself I know, but it is how I resolved to play this specific game. I have seen BH play before as have many people. Now that you have said this I have more problems. GM:WoS: I asked those questions earlier as a way for me to logically come to this point while still in the GM persona without using meta to prove it. What do you mean by come logically to the point. Were you asking questions to get answers to them, or was the purpose of the post to ask questions, while actually logically coming to a point. Your post concludes "What I am truly unsure about is the degree to which you actually care about your ego. I would think you're more likely to discard this ego as a scum player in favor of lying, but I cannot, of course, be sure." Which looks pretty much like coming to the point of saying something. So was the point of the post the questions or the conclusion it appears to reach and state. if the point of it was the questions, and the thread needed those answers "trying to find a way to show it to the thread," then why didnt you need to get them answered at some time? To be completely honest, I'm not sure what you're asking me. Can you try and rephrase it? Aure thing that post see above. it had lots of things with ? at the end in it they are questions. Was the point of the post to ask those questions and get answers. ("show it to the thread," via answers to questions) Was the point of the post to make statement. ("show it to the thread," via statement by you) or something else. If it was questions why when you didnt you get answers didnt you ask again? and just drop it. No need to be snide. There was no grand plan behind it, I suppose you could call it a combination of both. I wasn't exactly sure how BH would answer the questions if at all so it was more that I was trying to lead him in a direction where I could show the thread exactly how he is prone to act in certain situations. Why didn't I ask again? I don't know. I think I gave up the train of thought at the time. Trying to get BH to do anything is like pulling teeth anyway. Vayne it was a joke between me and Corazon. It's not related to the game really.
Snide = Sorry. Ok. it will take a little bit for me to get the stuff.
but without links to where or what. So that post gets the thread to see Bh has ego etc. (he said to me back then he is talented guy...)
How does that interact with him beign scummy or town. Walk me through how me knowing that lets me evaluate BH(with ego) and see that he got a scum Pm and not BH(with ego) got a town PM.
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On June 13 2013 08:00 VayneAuthority wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 07:56 GravityMan wrote:On June 13 2013 07:20 AxleGreaser wrote:On June 13 2013 07:14 GravityMan wrote:On June 13 2013 07:06 AxleGreaser wrote:On June 13 2013 02:03 GravityMan wrote:On June 12 2013 14:19 AxleGreaser wrote:Grav man, a number of pages back I posted this to you (before you WoS'd hi) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18868046Even though your posting style has now changed considerably. I am still interested in understanding what the purpose of the questions in that post was. There were rather lot of questions in the post. I am having difficulty deciding which mindset would want to post those and why. I am aware as you already said here why you say you asked them: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18860286On June 11 2013 08:02 GravityMan wrote:On June 11 2013 08:00 Hapahauli wrote:On June 11 2013 06:07 GravityMan wrote: Yes, that would be the post, thank you.
While you are at it, Blazinghand, are you the type to back down when admonished? Does this Hapahaulli play the role of 'thread police' often? Do you think that this Hapahauli is personally insulted by your play or shamed by it? He certainly does not seem to me ceasing communication. Like none of this has to do anything with scumhunting. BH thinks I'm town - why does it matter what his feelings about my play are? As I am not delving into past games to determine alignment, for players I may be having trouble understanding it suits me to attempt to figure out what each player is thinking, capable of, and even feeling in order to determine a specific mindset. If you find that irrelevant that is your prerogative, however I do not deem it so. One thing I cant marry with your statement of why that is that you did not follow those up? Since you posted that, you have again pursued BH, but without answers to the earlier questions. Why if they were GM/WoS: "In what way do you find my questions irrelevant? I am confused." didnt you seek answers. I can see one problem there were so many question in the post i doubt anyone would answer them all. So why ask them? Those questions were asked because I know how BH's ingame ego works and I was trying to find a way to show it to the thread, as can be seen in my written case against him. BH does not back down when dealing with anyone he feels is less skilled than him as can be seen by his constant tunneling of both me and Oats this game, and the way he talks to VA early. He is completely different when talking with Hapa and I wanted to make this evident; it is not a particularly towny way to play---completely deriding everyone's activity and efforts aside from one person. And what do you know, now that said person is dead there is absolutely no one to 'reign him in,' so he can act all troll-BH as he pleases, shit up the thread, offer no explanations for his reads and no one is around to scold him for it or make him stop that he will respond to. I asked those questions earlier as a way for me to logically come to this point while still in the GM persona without using meta to prove it. Difficult, time consuming, and artificially restraining myself I know, but it is how I resolved to play this specific game. I have seen BH play before as have many people. Now that you have said this I have more problems. GM:WoS: I asked those questions earlier as a way for me to logically come to this point while still in the GM persona without using meta to prove it. What do you mean by come logically to the point. Were you asking questions to get answers to them, or was the purpose of the post to ask questions, while actually logically coming to a point. Your post concludes "What I am truly unsure about is the degree to which you actually care about your ego. I would think you're more likely to discard this ego as a scum player in favor of lying, but I cannot, of course, be sure." Which looks pretty much like coming to the point of saying something. So was the point of the post the questions or the conclusion it appears to reach and state. if the point of it was the questions, and the thread needed those answers "trying to find a way to show it to the thread," then why didnt you need to get them answered at some time? To be completely honest, I'm not sure what you're asking me. Can you try and rephrase it? Aure thing that post see above. it had lots of things with ? at the end in it they are questions. Was the point of the post to ask those questions and get answers. ("show it to the thread," via answers to questions) Was the point of the post to make statement. ("show it to the thread," via statement by you) or something else. If it was questions why when you didnt you get answers didnt you ask again? and just drop it. No need to be snide. There was no grand plan behind it, I suppose you could call it a combination of both. I wasn't exactly sure how BH would answer the questions if at all so it was more that I was trying to lead him in a direction where I could show the thread exactly how he is prone to act in certain situations. Why didn't I ask again? I don't know. I think I gave up the train of thought at the time. Trying to get BH to do anything is like pulling teeth anyway. Vayne it was a joke between me and Corazon. It's not related to the game really. your dodging of it for so long doesn't really make me feel better about it.
Vayne What "it" are you referring to that was dodged?
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On June 13 2013 08:09 AxleGreaser wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 08:00 VayneAuthority wrote:On June 13 2013 07:56 GravityMan wrote:On June 13 2013 07:20 AxleGreaser wrote:On June 13 2013 07:14 GravityMan wrote:On June 13 2013 07:06 AxleGreaser wrote:On June 13 2013 02:03 GravityMan wrote:On June 12 2013 14:19 AxleGreaser wrote:Grav man, a number of pages back I posted this to you (before you WoS'd hi) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18868046Even though your posting style has now changed considerably. I am still interested in understanding what the purpose of the questions in that post was. There were rather lot of questions in the post. I am having difficulty deciding which mindset would want to post those and why. I am aware as you already said here why you say you asked them: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18860286On June 11 2013 08:02 GravityMan wrote:On June 11 2013 08:00 Hapahauli wrote: [quote] [quote]
Like none of this has to do anything with scumhunting. BH thinks I'm town - why does it matter what his feelings about my play are? As I am not delving into past games to determine alignment, for players I may be having trouble understanding it suits me to attempt to figure out what each player is thinking, capable of, and even feeling in order to determine a specific mindset. If you find that irrelevant that is your prerogative, however I do not deem it so. One thing I cant marry with your statement of why that is that you did not follow those up? Since you posted that, you have again pursued BH, but without answers to the earlier questions. Why if they were GM/WoS: "In what way do you find my questions irrelevant? I am confused." didnt you seek answers. I can see one problem there were so many question in the post i doubt anyone would answer them all. So why ask them? Those questions were asked because I know how BH's ingame ego works and I was trying to find a way to show it to the thread, as can be seen in my written case against him. BH does not back down when dealing with anyone he feels is less skilled than him as can be seen by his constant tunneling of both me and Oats this game, and the way he talks to VA early. He is completely different when talking with Hapa and I wanted to make this evident; it is not a particularly towny way to play---completely deriding everyone's activity and efforts aside from one person. And what do you know, now that said person is dead there is absolutely no one to 'reign him in,' so he can act all troll-BH as he pleases, shit up the thread, offer no explanations for his reads and no one is around to scold him for it or make him stop that he will respond to. I asked those questions earlier as a way for me to logically come to this point while still in the GM persona without using meta to prove it. Difficult, time consuming, and artificially restraining myself I know, but it is how I resolved to play this specific game. I have seen BH play before as have many people. Now that you have said this I have more problems. GM:WoS: I asked those questions earlier as a way for me to logically come to this point while still in the GM persona without using meta to prove it. What do you mean by come logically to the point. Were you asking questions to get answers to them, or was the purpose of the post to ask questions, while actually logically coming to a point. Your post concludes "What I am truly unsure about is the degree to which you actually care about your ego. I would think you're more likely to discard this ego as a scum player in favor of lying, but I cannot, of course, be sure." Which looks pretty much like coming to the point of saying something. So was the point of the post the questions or the conclusion it appears to reach and state. if the point of it was the questions, and the thread needed those answers "trying to find a way to show it to the thread," then why didnt you need to get them answered at some time? To be completely honest, I'm not sure what you're asking me. Can you try and rephrase it? Aure thing that post see above. it had lots of things with ? at the end in it they are questions. Was the point of the post to ask those questions and get answers. ("show it to the thread," via answers to questions) Was the point of the post to make statement. ("show it to the thread," via statement by you) or something else. If it was questions why when you didnt you get answers didnt you ask again? and just drop it. No need to be snide. There was no grand plan behind it, I suppose you could call it a combination of both. I wasn't exactly sure how BH would answer the questions if at all so it was more that I was trying to lead him in a direction where I could show the thread exactly how he is prone to act in certain situations. Why didn't I ask again? I don't know. I think I gave up the train of thought at the time. Trying to get BH to do anything is like pulling teeth anyway. Vayne it was a joke between me and Corazon. It's not related to the game really. your dodging of it for so long doesn't really make me feel better about it. Vayne What "it" are you referring to that was dodged?
Do uyu mean the aside to cora or my questions?
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On June 13 2013 08:10 GravityMan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 08:02 AxleGreaser wrote:On June 13 2013 07:56 GravityMan wrote:On June 13 2013 07:20 AxleGreaser wrote:On June 13 2013 07:14 GravityMan wrote:On June 13 2013 07:06 AxleGreaser wrote:On June 13 2013 02:03 GravityMan wrote:On June 12 2013 14:19 AxleGreaser wrote:Grav man, a number of pages back I posted this to you (before you WoS'd hi) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18868046Even though your posting style has now changed considerably. I am still interested in understanding what the purpose of the questions in that post was. There were rather lot of questions in the post. I am having difficulty deciding which mindset would want to post those and why. I am aware as you already said here why you say you asked them: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18860286On June 11 2013 08:02 GravityMan wrote:On June 11 2013 08:00 Hapahauli wrote: [quote] [quote]
Like none of this has to do anything with scumhunting. BH thinks I'm town - why does it matter what his feelings about my play are? As I am not delving into past games to determine alignment, for players I may be having trouble understanding it suits me to attempt to figure out what each player is thinking, capable of, and even feeling in order to determine a specific mindset. If you find that irrelevant that is your prerogative, however I do not deem it so. One thing I cant marry with your statement of why that is that you did not follow those up? Since you posted that, you have again pursued BH, but without answers to the earlier questions. Why if they were GM/WoS: "In what way do you find my questions irrelevant? I am confused." didnt you seek answers. I can see one problem there were so many question in the post i doubt anyone would answer them all. So why ask them? Those questions were asked because I know how BH's ingame ego works and I was trying to find a way to show it to the thread, as can be seen in my written case against him. BH does not back down when dealing with anyone he feels is less skilled than him as can be seen by his constant tunneling of both me and Oats this game, and the way he talks to VA early. He is completely different when talking with Hapa and I wanted to make this evident; it is not a particularly towny way to play---completely deriding everyone's activity and efforts aside from one person. And what do you know, now that said person is dead there is absolutely no one to 'reign him in,' so he can act all troll-BH as he pleases, shit up the thread, offer no explanations for his reads and no one is around to scold him for it or make him stop that he will respond to. I asked those questions earlier as a way for me to logically come to this point while still in the GM persona without using meta to prove it. Difficult, time consuming, and artificially restraining myself I know, but it is how I resolved to play this specific game. I have seen BH play before as have many people. Now that you have said this I have more problems. GM:WoS: I asked those questions earlier as a way for me to logically come to this point while still in the GM persona without using meta to prove it. What do you mean by come logically to the point. Were you asking questions to get answers to them, or was the purpose of the post to ask questions, while actually logically coming to a point. Your post concludes "What I am truly unsure about is the degree to which you actually care about your ego. I would think you're more likely to discard this ego as a scum player in favor of lying, but I cannot, of course, be sure." Which looks pretty much like coming to the point of saying something. So was the point of the post the questions or the conclusion it appears to reach and state. if the point of it was the questions, and the thread needed those answers "trying to find a way to show it to the thread," then why didnt you need to get them answered at some time? To be completely honest, I'm not sure what you're asking me. Can you try and rephrase it? Aure thing that post see above. it had lots of things with ? at the end in it they are questions. Was the point of the post to ask those questions and get answers. ("show it to the thread," via answers to questions) Was the point of the post to make statement. ("show it to the thread," via statement by you) or something else. If it was questions why when you didnt you get answers didnt you ask again? and just drop it. No need to be snide. There was no grand plan behind it, I suppose you could call it a combination of both. I wasn't exactly sure how BH would answer the questions if at all so it was more that I was trying to lead him in a direction where I could show the thread exactly how he is prone to act in certain situations. Why didn't I ask again? I don't know. I think I gave up the train of thought at the time. Trying to get BH to do anything is like pulling teeth anyway. Vayne it was a joke between me and Corazon. It's not related to the game really. Snide = Sorry. Ok. it will take a little bit for me to get the stuff. but without links to where or what. So that post gets the thread to see Bh has ego etc. (he said to me back then he is talented guy...) How does that interact with him beign scummy or town. Walk me through how me knowing that lets me evaluate BH(with ego) and see that he got a scum Pm and not BH(with ego) got a town PM. Specifically, the section where he backs down from Hapa yet is belligerent towards Oats got me thinking about how in general he interacts with people. I believe I spoke about it last night---as scum he tends not to give people he thinks are beneath him the time of day. He does this as town as well, but when he's serious about hunting scum he will eventually interact with everyone in the thread in some form of a positive way. Essentially I was trying to display this without the ability to dive into BH's meta and prove this---again, Les Mafia is a good example--- and show that he can't act that way towards Hapa as Hapa is a very skilled town player and will not put up with his bullshit, yet will shit up the thread towards anyone else he can when he can get away with it. Without even using meta I can tell you that the way BH has been acting in this way towards people is not town-aligned in the slightest; the meta only makes it stronger when you can see that's how he acts in various games. I admit it's not exactly the clearest line of thought but I know it's true, I've played with BH a ton recently and feel that I've learned to read him well (despite me lying about it as GM). It doesn't mean much but I've said it before, if I was town in Les there is no way I would have voted to lynch him when he acted the way he did at the end of the game. He has not acted even a fraction as towny this game as he did in that one.
Ok. I will need to reread your filter in context with that in mind. it was not one of the possible intentions that originally sprang to my mind.
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On June 13 2013 07:59 GravityMan wrote: Axle, who do YOU think is scum? We haven't had very many reads from you this game at all, just analysis and questions.
There is the obvious list, of people who have not contributed much. There is the obvious list of turning Hapas list upside down and saying that.
One thing i dont want to do is get all in a low post count townies face, and shut them down. So I wont be doing that.
The least clear intention I have is you. I see what "looks" like a tendency to Lynch BH for being BH. I see posts that could well inflame him and make his ego come to the fore as town or scum. This could have been their intention, or not.
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On June 13 2013 08:28 GravityMan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 08:23 AxleGreaser wrote:On June 13 2013 07:59 GravityMan wrote: Axle, who do YOU think is scum? We haven't had very many reads from you this game at all, just analysis and questions. There is the obvious list, of people who have not contributed much. There is the obvious list of turning Hapas list upside down and saying that. One thing i dont want to do is get all in a low post count townies face, and shut them down. So I wont be doing that. The least clear intention I have is you. I see what "looks" like a tendency to Lynch BH for being BH. I see posts that could well inflame him and make his ego come to the fore as town or scum. This could have been their intention, or not. Obvious lists? Do you trust those lists entirely? Why can't you just come out and call me scum? Am I the only scum in this game? Come on Axle. Something concrete please.
No I don't trust those list entirely, which is why early on D1 I asked hapa about him giving out so many town reads and saying EZ. Hapa is town, he flipped town, but i still don't trust his list as he can be wrong.
The language used was euphamism to do as stated and avoid getting in low post counters face.
Grav man: Why can't you just come out and call me scum?
I can. Thats the easy bit, trying to be right is harder.
This time i dont understand you: "Come on Axle. Something concrete please." do you want more concrete reasoning and analysis for why i think your scum GM: "We haven't had very many reads from you this game at all, just analysis and questions."
or do you want me to overexaggerate the degree of certainty that i have that your motivations in posting inflammatory things was so that BHs ego would get him to piss off enough people that you could mislynch him?
The problem is there are towny reasons to push people as well. I need to work out if what you did was for those reasons.
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On June 13 2013 08:39 VayneAuthority wrote: I've called pretty much everyone scum at one point this game, I don't have any good reads. Either they are lurking or we are just spamming, not much to go off of. Obvious night kill, unsuspicious day kill. There's nowhere to go from here really.
Stutters' aggressiveness in this thread is disconcerting I suppose, I don't even know who sylencia is he posts so little.
FYI: As I have experience with Syl. Sylencia is a problem player. See the recent "noir". We both played in it. I got town read off basically nothing, knew Syl from previous games and reading and knew Sylencia was often quiet as town or scum. We mislynched Syl in noir, I don't want to lose that way, compare Syl to noir, Syl also has a scum game (although from memory its newb). If you try and fit Syl into general purpose "Is this what scum do"(red) "is this what town do"(green) you will frequently mislynch Syl.
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On June 13 2013 08:45 GravityMan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 08:42 AxleGreaser wrote:On June 13 2013 08:28 GravityMan wrote:On June 13 2013 08:23 AxleGreaser wrote:On June 13 2013 07:59 GravityMan wrote: Axle, who do YOU think is scum? We haven't had very many reads from you this game at all, just analysis and questions. There is the obvious list, of people who have not contributed much. There is the obvious list of turning Hapas list upside down and saying that. One thing i dont want to do is get all in a low post count townies face, and shut them down. So I wont be doing that. The least clear intention I have is you. I see what "looks" like a tendency to Lynch BH for being BH. I see posts that could well inflame him and make his ego come to the fore as town or scum. This could have been their intention, or not. Obvious lists? Do you trust those lists entirely? Why can't you just come out and call me scum? Am I the only scum in this game? Come on Axle. Something concrete please. No I don't trust those list entirely, which is why early on D1 I asked hapa about him giving out so many town reads and saying EZ. Hapa is town, he flipped town, but i still don't trust his list as he can be wrong. The language used was euphamism to do as stated and avoid getting in low post counters face. Grav man: Why can't you just come out and call me scum? I can. Thats the easy bit, trying to be right is harder. This time i dont understand you: "Come on Axle. Something concrete please." do you want more concrete reasoning and analysis for why i think your scum GM: "We haven't had very many reads from you this game at all, just analysis and questions." or do you want me to overexaggerate the degree of certainty that i have that your motivations in posting inflammatory things was so that BHs ego would get him to piss off enough people that you could mislynch him? The problem is there are towny reasons to push people as well. I need to work out if what you did was for those reasons. For the record, I wasn't trying to be inflammatory necessarily with those questions, I was trying just to see what I could get BH to say and talk about regarding that topic. You say that I'm trying to get BH mislynched though, what makes you sure he's town?
Um err. Are you saying that your intention with the D1 post was to try and get BH to talk about that topic. Also please state topic.
The number of questions, the nature of the questions, and the final sentence seem more likely to get BH to display
I said earlier.
So that post gets the thread to see Bh has ego etc. (he said to me back then he is talented guy...)
How does that interact with him beign scummy or town. Walk me through how me knowing that lets me evaluate BH(with ego) and see that he got a scum Pm and not BH(with ego) got a town PM.
have you yet addressed the above?
"What I am truly unsure about is the degree to which you actually care about your ego. I would think you're more likely to discard this ego as a scum player in favor of lying, but I cannot, of course, be sure."
I am unclear how discarding ego leaves the alternative of lying or why discarding ego would be needed to lie as scum. Indeed "lying" seems somehow unrelated to he rest of the thoughts in the D1 post.
Walk me through how me knowing that lets me evaluate BH(with ego) and see that he got a scum Pm and not BH(with ego) got a town PM.
WoS: You say that I'm trying to get BH mislynched though, what makes you sure he's town? I dont have to be sure hes town to find your behaviour does not ring true as trying to find out if BH is town or scum.
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On June 13 2013 09:17 goodkarma wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 23:05 Oatsmaster wrote: KILL GK.
KILL IT WITH FIRE.
He never talks about me, shiao pi/vayne/axle.
I wanna kill GK, and then BH if he continues being a useless sack of shit. I didn't have time to read the game until last night, and by the time I was done and posted, like no one was around in thread... The reason I haven't really talked to you this game is you haven't provided any real case points for why I'm scum, or anyone else for that matter... You seem content to capslock and spam the word kill 2-3 times, which is entirely unhelpful and unproductive. If you truly believe I'm scum, make some casepoints so I have something to actually discuss with you. I am here the next few hours, and it looks like people are actually in thread right now, so if you or anyone else have something to discuss I'm here.
Have you looked at what happened with the D1 voting and what do you make of it?
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On June 12 2013 14:37 goodkarma wrote: I finally read through everything. Here are my current thoughts.:
[.....delteia... ]
Regarding BH:
You seem to have a few people you'd like to have shot. But I'm having some trouble understanding your thought process... I see lots of shitslinging and dinner-eating, but very limited analysis...
I'd say your play here does resemble The Game in that you seem to be just going completely aggro on players with unproductive tunnels. I believe you even referenced this once or twice, like how you'd rather tunnel Hapa as scum or something. But I remember how you tunneled ThePeashooter in that game, and he was hardly a town leader or anything... Scum BH loves to shit up threads, and that's exactly what I see here.
I'm leaning scum on you. You proved to me last game you can play like complete shit as town, but the way you're playing this game is similar enough to your The Game scumgame I believe there's a decent chance you'll flip red.
Regarding Syl:
As far as more lurkerish players, there's Syl who's been sheepish this game to the exclusion of much of any analysis. He's flown completely under the radar, and if he shamelessly continues to do so I believe he'd be a decent vigishot.
Can you explain how these things show the scum motivation of the person involved.
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On June 13 2013 09:35 GravityMan wrote:Sorry Corazon Axle, I answered you here. Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 08:10 GravityMan wrote:On June 13 2013 08:02 AxleGreaser wrote:On June 13 2013 07:56 GravityMan wrote:On June 13 2013 07:20 AxleGreaser wrote:On June 13 2013 07:14 GravityMan wrote:On June 13 2013 07:06 AxleGreaser wrote:On June 13 2013 02:03 GravityMan wrote:On June 12 2013 14:19 AxleGreaser wrote:Grav man, a number of pages back I posted this to you (before you WoS'd hi) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18868046Even though your posting style has now changed considerably. I am still interested in understanding what the purpose of the questions in that post was. There were rather lot of questions in the post. I am having difficulty deciding which mindset would want to post those and why. I am aware as you already said here why you say you asked them: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18860286On June 11 2013 08:02 GravityMan wrote: [quote] As I am not delving into past games to determine alignment, for players I may be having trouble understanding it suits me to attempt to figure out what each player is thinking, capable of, and even feeling in order to determine a specific mindset.
If you find that irrelevant that is your prerogative, however I do not deem it so. One thing I cant marry with your statement of why that is that you did not follow those up? Since you posted that, you have again pursued BH, but without answers to the earlier questions. Why if they were GM/WoS: "In what way do you find my questions irrelevant? I am confused." didnt you seek answers. I can see one problem there were so many question in the post i doubt anyone would answer them all. So why ask them? Those questions were asked because I know how BH's ingame ego works and I was trying to find a way to show it to the thread, as can be seen in my written case against him. BH does not back down when dealing with anyone he feels is less skilled than him as can be seen by his constant tunneling of both me and Oats this game, and the way he talks to VA early. He is completely different when talking with Hapa and I wanted to make this evident; it is not a particularly towny way to play---completely deriding everyone's activity and efforts aside from one person. And what do you know, now that said person is dead there is absolutely no one to 'reign him in,' so he can act all troll-BH as he pleases, shit up the thread, offer no explanations for his reads and no one is around to scold him for it or make him stop that he will respond to. I asked those questions earlier as a way for me to logically come to this point while still in the GM persona without using meta to prove it. Difficult, time consuming, and artificially restraining myself I know, but it is how I resolved to play this specific game. I have seen BH play before as have many people. Now that you have said this I have more problems. GM:WoS: I asked those questions earlier as a way for me to logically come to this point while still in the GM persona without using meta to prove it. What do you mean by come logically to the point. Were you asking questions to get answers to them, or was the purpose of the post to ask questions, while actually logically coming to a point. Your post concludes "What I am truly unsure about is the degree to which you actually care about your ego. I would think you're more likely to discard this ego as a scum player in favor of lying, but I cannot, of course, be sure." Which looks pretty much like coming to the point of saying something. So was the point of the post the questions or the conclusion it appears to reach and state. if the point of it was the questions, and the thread needed those answers "trying to find a way to show it to the thread," then why didnt you need to get them answered at some time? To be completely honest, I'm not sure what you're asking me. Can you try and rephrase it? Aure thing that post see above. it had lots of things with ? at the end in it they are questions. Was the point of the post to ask those questions and get answers. ("show it to the thread," via answers to questions) Was the point of the post to make statement. ("show it to the thread," via statement by you) or something else. If it was questions why when you didnt you get answers didnt you ask again? and just drop it. No need to be snide. There was no grand plan behind it, I suppose you could call it a combination of both. I wasn't exactly sure how BH would answer the questions if at all so it was more that I was trying to lead him in a direction where I could show the thread exactly how he is prone to act in certain situations. Why didn't I ask again? I don't know. I think I gave up the train of thought at the time. Trying to get BH to do anything is like pulling teeth anyway. Vayne it was a joke between me and Corazon. It's not related to the game really. Snide = Sorry. Ok. it will take a little bit for me to get the stuff. but without links to where or what. So that post gets the thread to see Bh has ego etc. (he said to me back then he is talented guy...) How does that interact with him beign scummy or town. Walk me through how me knowing that lets me evaluate BH(with ego) and see that he got a scum Pm and not BH(with ego) got a town PM. Specifically, the section where he backs down from Hapa yet is belligerent towards Oats got me thinking about how in general he interacts with people. I believe I spoke about it last night---as scum he tends not to give people he thinks are beneath him the time of day. He does this as town as well, but when he's serious about hunting scum he will eventually interact with everyone in the thread in some form of a positive way. Essentially I was trying to display this without the ability to dive into BH's meta and prove this---again, Les Mafia is a good example--- and show that he can't act that way towards Hapa as Hapa is a very skilled town player and will not put up with his bullshit, yet will shit up the thread towards anyone else he can when he can get away with it. Without even using meta I can tell you that the way BH has been acting in this way towards people is not town-aligned in the slightest; the meta only makes it stronger when you can see that's how he acts in various games. I admit it's not exactly the clearest line of thought but I know it's true, I've played with BH a ton recently and feel that I've learned to read him well (despite me lying about it as GM). It doesn't mean much but I've said it before, if I was town in Les there is no way I would have voted to lynch him when he acted the way he did at the end of the game. He has not acted even a fraction as towny this game as he did in that one. In fact, I have been nothing but forthcoming considering everything asked of me all game. Has BH been as considerate? I REALLY don't understand what is so hard for all of you to see here. Oh and Axle, by definiton, you saying 'mislynched' means you think BH is town. I want to know why you think he is town. It has nothing to do with what you want from me.
I think I prefer to do what you wanted me to do a little while ago.
On June 13 2013 08:13 GravityMan wrote:
Axle can you answer my question? You've been doing too much analysis and questioning and not offering enough in terms of reads and stances taken. Who is scum and why?
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On June 13 2013 09:50 GravityMan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 09:45 AxleGreaser wrote:On June 13 2013 09:35 GravityMan wrote:Sorry Corazon Axle, I answered you here. On June 13 2013 08:10 GravityMan wrote:On June 13 2013 08:02 AxleGreaser wrote:On June 13 2013 07:56 GravityMan wrote:On June 13 2013 07:20 AxleGreaser wrote:On June 13 2013 07:14 GravityMan wrote:On June 13 2013 07:06 AxleGreaser wrote:On June 13 2013 02:03 GravityMan wrote: [quote] Those questions were asked because I know how BH's ingame ego works and I was trying to find a way to show it to the thread, as can be seen in my written case against him. BH does not back down when dealing with anyone he feels is less skilled than him as can be seen by his constant tunneling of both me and Oats this game, and the way he talks to VA early. He is completely different when talking with Hapa and I wanted to make this evident; it is not a particularly towny way to play---completely deriding everyone's activity and efforts aside from one person. And what do you know, now that said person is dead there is absolutely no one to 'reign him in,' so he can act all troll-BH as he pleases, shit up the thread, offer no explanations for his reads and no one is around to scold him for it or make him stop that he will respond to. I asked those questions earlier as a way for me to logically come to this point while still in the GM persona without using meta to prove it. Difficult, time consuming, and artificially restraining myself I know, but it is how I resolved to play this specific game. I have seen BH play before as have many people. Now that you have said this I have more problems. GM:WoS: I asked those questions earlier as a way for me to logically come to this point while still in the GM persona without using meta to prove it. What do you mean by come logically to the point. Were you asking questions to get answers to them, or was the purpose of the post to ask questions, while actually logically coming to a point. Your post concludes "What I am truly unsure about is the degree to which you actually care about your ego. I would think you're more likely to discard this ego as a scum player in favor of lying, but I cannot, of course, be sure." Which looks pretty much like coming to the point of saying something. So was the point of the post the questions or the conclusion it appears to reach and state. if the point of it was the questions, and the thread needed those answers "trying to find a way to show it to the thread," then why didnt you need to get them answered at some time? To be completely honest, I'm not sure what you're asking me. Can you try and rephrase it? Aure thing that post see above. it had lots of things with ? at the end in it they are questions. Was the point of the post to ask those questions and get answers. ("show it to the thread," via answers to questions) Was the point of the post to make statement. ("show it to the thread," via statement by you) or something else. If it was questions why when you didnt you get answers didnt you ask again? and just drop it. No need to be snide. There was no grand plan behind it, I suppose you could call it a combination of both. I wasn't exactly sure how BH would answer the questions if at all so it was more that I was trying to lead him in a direction where I could show the thread exactly how he is prone to act in certain situations. Why didn't I ask again? I don't know. I think I gave up the train of thought at the time. Trying to get BH to do anything is like pulling teeth anyway. Vayne it was a joke between me and Corazon. It's not related to the game really. Snide = Sorry. Ok. it will take a little bit for me to get the stuff. but without links to where or what. So that post gets the thread to see Bh has ego etc. (he said to me back then he is talented guy...) How does that interact with him beign scummy or town. Walk me through how me knowing that lets me evaluate BH(with ego) and see that he got a scum Pm and not BH(with ego) got a town PM. Specifically, the section where he backs down from Hapa yet is belligerent towards Oats got me thinking about how in general he interacts with people. I believe I spoke about it last night---as scum he tends not to give people he thinks are beneath him the time of day. He does this as town as well, but when he's serious about hunting scum he will eventually interact with everyone in the thread in some form of a positive way. Essentially I was trying to display this without the ability to dive into BH's meta and prove this---again, Les Mafia is a good example--- and show that he can't act that way towards Hapa as Hapa is a very skilled town player and will not put up with his bullshit, yet will shit up the thread towards anyone else he can when he can get away with it. Without even using meta I can tell you that the way BH has been acting in this way towards people is not town-aligned in the slightest; the meta only makes it stronger when you can see that's how he acts in various games. I admit it's not exactly the clearest line of thought but I know it's true, I've played with BH a ton recently and feel that I've learned to read him well (despite me lying about it as GM). It doesn't mean much but I've said it before, if I was town in Les there is no way I would have voted to lynch him when he acted the way he did at the end of the game. He has not acted even a fraction as towny this game as he did in that one. In fact, I have been nothing but forthcoming considering everything asked of me all game. Has BH been as considerate? I REALLY don't understand what is so hard for all of you to see here. Oh and Axle, by definiton, you saying 'mislynched' means you think BH is town. I want to know why you think he is town. It has nothing to do with what you want from me. I think I prefer to do what you wanted me to do a little while ago. On June 13 2013 08:13 GravityMan wrote:
Axle can you answer my question? You've been doing too much analysis and questioning and not offering enough in terms of reads and stances taken. Who is scum and why?
I'm fine with either for now, but I will not be letting this go. I have seen nothing remotely towny about BH's play right now and that fact that you see as such or are making a preflip association based on the fact that you think I'm scum is not good.
My views are not preflip association based. They are also not 100%, but I would need to either see more or understand the cases against him better before i'd lynch today. yeah he went all "dinner" "dinner" and hapa fake shot him... and he and oats are being he and oats. What I dont yet see is the scum agenda and intention.
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On June 13 2013 10:01 Oatsmaster wrote: So who is your other scumread GK?
oats are you here for little bit there is something i want to clear up. (BTW no this isnt going to be like our first game, where i wanted chat)
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On June 13 2013 10:29 Oatsmaster wrote: yes yes im here.
and no GK, SHOW ME where his play is similar.
This post of yours. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18863859 "I love syls filter. LOOOVE."
"Why? Cause he says a lotta sensible things."
"Just read his filter and form a conclusion, I dont like explaining town reads. "
This was sarcasm? or real? sorry cant tell.
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On June 13 2013 10:32 Oatsmaster wrote: at that point, it was real.
Sorry reads like sarcasm in my head. just be a sec i think I know what chnaged your mind then.
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@Oats
Was it this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18865624
On June 12 2013 01:11 Oatsmaster wrote: Why syl. Whyyyy.
Whos scum?
in reply to this + Show Spoiler +On June 12 2013 00:38 Sylencia wrote: Alright, clarification statement here: Here is what I meant about erratic behaviour: - BH starts out the game lurker style but then comes out guns blazing against Oats in a flamefest war which I frankly don't understand the point of. Neither of them really got their point to each other. - Hapa attacks Vayne then goes 'nah all cool' and moves on like nothing happened. Vayne is pretty much confirmed town at this point, but at the time when it happened I had no idea what to make of it. - Stutter's lurkiness is similar to LXI, hard to make out anything from it - this is probably the most normal thing about this town during D1. - Vayne goes scum style posting into blue claim, weirdest play to date (I missed the hints, but apparently everyone did) - Axle is actually making sense for once, which is the weirdest thing unless I haven't played with him long enough for him to be more normal like this? - I don't think I've played a game with Hapa before, but he's probably the most level headed player in this group from what I've seen.
None of this actually really helps in the end with scumhunting, but it just threw me off guard to see these changes. For tonight, about the potential shot, probably best not to use it if you're not sure Hapa. If things go wrong and we're looking at an SK or something in the mix, town numbers could be at an all time low in just 1 day/night cycle. Which is pretty why why why
didnt Syl quote My post that specifically asked Syl for that information....
+ Show Spoiler +On June 11 2013 15:21 AxleGreaser wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2013 09:25 Sylencia wrote:Ok... day 1 claim is unfortunate ##unvote is the obvious first move GravityMan: On June 11 2013 01:14 GravityMan wrote: Sylencia. Hello. If you are not currently otherwise occupied, I have some queries for you that I feel would help me gain a better understand of you. If you would answer them I would be greatly pleased. Do you have any reads on scum other than this VayneAuthority? What do you make of the altercation between the Oatsmaster and this Blazinghand? You mention that you are often lynched early in other games. Why is this? 1) No, not really, everyone is acting really erratically this game and it's making things kind of difficult to work out. 2) That argument was actually rather annoying - flamefests just spam up the thread uselessly and demoralises the town side most of the time. I don't even feel like there was anything productive that came from it... 3) Lurkerish, lynchbait, scum jump on my weak cases etc. etc. Unless Jampi shows up soon (he said he would be here around now right?), I'm going to put a vote on him going mostly on Hapa's reasoning. ##vote Jampi Syl said: 1) No, not really, everyone is acting really erratically this game and it's making things kind of difficult to work out. please clarify the meaning of the word erratically, in what sense are what people behaving erratically. id suggest choosing one or more, person or period in the thread, as an example. Was it only the BH oats thing id prefer another example as you said everyone. They dont have to be scum indicative. The problem is normally I read your posts and they make sense to me, that bit does not.
My question was ways back so it would be real easy to miss.
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On June 13 2013 10:33 AxleGreaser wrote:Sorry reads like sarcasm in my head. just be a sec i think I know what chnaged your mind then.
Actually i dont know if your mind changed or not ,the above reads like that (sheesh this getting silly)
Anyway if your read is based on your "why? why? Why Syl?" post then you may need to re-examine it yet again
Kind of an FYI: thing as I think you missed something.
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On June 13 2013 10:35 Oatsmaster wrote: KK.
What do you think of GK?
earlier you asked
Ok. GK lives in the pool of lynchbait targets, so I am not real keen to fan sentiment and make things easy. (people should have to make up their own minds) I was interested to see the reasons given on the question I asked or what else GK chooses to do instead as well. The decisions made will be what tells.
I thought there was little more to what happened on D1 regarding the voting than GK has found.
You don't like the first post, I don't know for sure why, (maybe I do) but i think its something i don't know about replacements and how they initially post, I imagine that has something to with being shy to talk about everyone. I dont know how hard the various wines are to drink.
I don't like posts that start: "Catching up with the thread now."
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@everyone Time is passing. We need to have some wagons of Justice.
Here is mine
##Vote GravityMan toLynch The case is not that hard but there are potentially lots of details.
The case on blazing hand is wrong and weak, and making a bad case is not scum indicative.
What is scum indicative is trying, to manufacture one, by provoking the responses that you need in advance of having the read.
GM has been trying to provoke BH for rather a long time. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18859699 read this post and decide if you think that was provocative.
GM describes the purpose of that as http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18875432 "For the record, I wasn't trying to be inflammatory necessarily with those questions, I was trying just to see what I could get BH to say and talk about regarding that topic."
Go read the above post, he wanted him to answer that why? Was it inflammatory. if there were no examples of what he wanted to talk about why the asking?
WHy was he trying to lead him places? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18875124 "There was no grand plan behind it, I suppose you could call it a combination of both. I wasn't exactly sure how BH would answer the questions if at all so it was more that I was trying to lead him in a direction where I could show the thread exactly how he is prone to act in certain situations."
prone means they have not happened yet. if they had happened you could just point to those, no need to show the thread what BH is prone to if he has not done it?
Why was he trying to lead him places? before the case existed.
Bh has in fact for Bh been very restrained. BH was even called out by hapa for being less strident than normal D1
+ Show Spoiler [some more of the details] +
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This post is also interesting
On June 13 2013 01:56 GravityMan wrote: What makes no sense to me now is how there are only two votes cast and GoodKarma is going to be lynched. Clearly if it walks like a scum, talks like a scum, and multiple people suspect him like a scum....
BH is still just creating shit about him and Oats. All he does is counter-accuse people who 'dare' accuse him of being scum because he knows he can get away with it. He's provided no evidence as to why he thinks I'm scum. STILL.
I have no idea why people are still hesitating on this. Meta-analysis would be SO GOOD here but I promised myself I wouldn't. Someone else could take a crack at it though if they wanted. It's pretty obvious.
BH you must be absolutely furious that I'm going to get you lynched today, but 'jubs gonna jub,' amirite?
Now I'm supposed to respond to Axle 'cause he's been asking me for a while so let me get to that, and then I'm around for discussion and such.
That makes sense if you have just been discussing it in the scum QT. and now you are suppsoed to respond to Axle seeing as he just wont let the question go.... <<< wine that is easy to drink
I have tried to find how a towny might have been thinking that would then have them write that. <<< wine that is too hard to drink
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On June 13 2013 23:41 Sylencia wrote: In any case, things look grim with BH being the one up for vote, I'm moving mine to gk for now
Syl, would you care to do two things.
more clearly indicate your votes in this thread.
attach some reasons at the point when you do so that later people can find out why you did things.
Do you wish to seek say some clarification from me about the information in the post which is presume the reason you voted for me earlier?
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EBWOP
On June 13 2013 23:45 AxleGreaser wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 23:41 Sylencia wrote: In any case, things look grim with BH being the one up for vote, I'm moving mine to gk for now Syl, would you care to do two things. more clearly indicate your votes in this thread. attach some reasons at the point when you do so that later people can find out why you did things. Do you wish to seek say some clarification from me about the information in the post which is I presume the reason you voted for me earlier?
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On June 14 2013 00:44 GravityMan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 22:18 AxleGreaser wrote:@everyone Time is passing. We need to have some wagons of Justice. Here is mine ##Vote GravityMan toLynch The case is not that hard but there are potentially lots of details. The case on blazing hand is wrong and weak, and making a bad case is not scum indicative. What is scum indicative is trying, to manufacture one, by provoking the responses that you need in advance of having the read. GM has been trying to provoke BH for rather a long time. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18859699read this post and decide if you think that was provocative. GM describes the purpose of that as http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18875432"For the record, I wasn't trying to be inflammatory necessarily with those questions, I was trying just to see what I could get BH to say and talk about regarding that topic." Go read the above post, he wanted him to answer that why? Was it inflammatory. if there were no examples of what he wanted to talk about why the asking? Why was he trying to lead him places? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18875124"There was no grand plan behind it, I suppose you could call it a combination of both. I wasn't exactly sure how BH would answer the questions if at all so it was more that I was trying to lead him in a direction where I could show the thread exactly how he is prone to act in certain situations." prone means they have not happened yet. if they had happened you could just point to those, no need to show the thread what BH is prone to if he has not done it? Why was he trying to lead him places? before the case existed. Bh has in fact for Bh been very restrained. BH was even called out by hapa for being less strident than normal D1 + Show Spoiler [some more of the details] + Axle, my problem here is you are also misrepresenting everything I do.The reason I was trying to 'lead' BH to talk about what I wanted him to is the artificial restraints I put on myself. Without the ability to talk about his meta I was forced to get him to talk about how he might act in certain situations so I could then bring it up as an example. I already had in my mind the idea that he was scum here but I wanted to try and flesh out more evidence. Yes it's 'leading the witness,' but it's for a good cause: getting my scumread lynched. You can call that a scum agenda if you want, but it's not. Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 23:03 AxleGreaser wrote:This post is also interesting On June 13 2013 01:56 GravityMan wrote: What makes no sense to me now is how there are only two votes cast and GoodKarma is going to be lynched. Clearly if it walks like a scum, talks like a scum, and multiple people suspect him like a scum....
BH is still just creating shit about him and Oats. All he does is counter-accuse people who 'dare' accuse him of being scum because he knows he can get away with it. He's provided no evidence as to why he thinks I'm scum. STILL.
I have no idea why people are still hesitating on this. Meta-analysis would be SO GOOD here but I promised myself I wouldn't. Someone else could take a crack at it though if they wanted. It's pretty obvious.
BH you must be absolutely furious that I'm going to get you lynched today, but 'jubs gonna jub,' amirite?
Now I'm supposed to respond to Axle 'cause he's been asking me for a while so let me get to that, and then I'm around for discussion and such. That makes sense if you have just been discussing it in the scum QT. and now you are supposed to respond to Axle seeing as he just wont let the question go.... <<< wine that is easy to drink I have tried to find how a towny might have been thinking that would then have them write that. <<< wine that is too hard to drink As far as not responding to you immediately, I don't really see how that's scum indicative either. This is confiramtion bias and you are simply believing what fits your read of me. I simply said it because it was the truth, and upon looking back through the thread I realized I missed some queries you had of me. Nothing more. Vote me if you must Axle, but I would recommend you at least look into who else in this game is scum for once, because if I eventually flip town you are going to be completely lost, especially if you think BH is town.
While the delay was concerning especially when repeated
You appeared to miss the point so I adjusted the bolding in the quote. Gravman Said: "Now I'm supposed to respond to Axle 'cause he's been asking me for a while so let me get to that, and then I'm around for discussion and such." My problem was that you referred to it as 'supposed' to the use of that word seems wrong for town player acting alone, but makes sense if it is as a result of discussion elsewhere such as in the scum QT.
Also This is your case (I believe) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18867420
What kind of answers could have been given to these questions that would supported your case. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18859699
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On June 14 2013 02:16 GravityMan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2013 02:06 AxleGreaser wrote:On June 14 2013 00:44 GravityMan wrote:On June 13 2013 22:18 AxleGreaser wrote:@everyone Time is passing. We need to have some wagons of Justice. Here is mine ##Vote GravityMan toLynch The case is not that hard but there are potentially lots of details. The case on blazing hand is wrong and weak, and making a bad case is not scum indicative. What is scum indicative is trying, to manufacture one, by provoking the responses that you need in advance of having the read. GM has been trying to provoke BH for rather a long time. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18859699read this post and decide if you think that was provocative. GM describes the purpose of that as http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18875432"For the record, I wasn't trying to be inflammatory necessarily with those questions, I was trying just to see what I could get BH to say and talk about regarding that topic." Go read the above post, he wanted him to answer that why? Was it inflammatory. if there were no examples of what he wanted to talk about why the asking? Why was he trying to lead him places? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18875124"There was no grand plan behind it, I suppose you could call it a combination of both. I wasn't exactly sure how BH would answer the questions if at all so it was more that I was trying to lead him in a direction where I could show the thread exactly how he is prone to act in certain situations." prone means they have not happened yet. if they had happened you could just point to those, no need to show the thread what BH is prone to if he has not done it? Why was he trying to lead him places? before the case existed. Bh has in fact for Bh been very restrained. BH was even called out by hapa for being less strident than normal D1 + Show Spoiler [some more of the details] + Axle, my problem here is you are also misrepresenting everything I do.The reason I was trying to 'lead' BH to talk about what I wanted him to is the artificial restraints I put on myself. Without the ability to talk about his meta I was forced to get him to talk about how he might act in certain situations so I could then bring it up as an example. I already had in my mind the idea that he was scum here but I wanted to try and flesh out more evidence. Yes it's 'leading the witness,' but it's for a good cause: getting my scumread lynched. You can call that a scum agenda if you want, but it's not. On June 13 2013 23:03 AxleGreaser wrote:This post is also interesting On June 13 2013 01:56 GravityMan wrote: What makes no sense to me now is how there are only two votes cast and GoodKarma is going to be lynched. Clearly if it walks like a scum, talks like a scum, and multiple people suspect him like a scum....
BH is still just creating shit about him and Oats. All he does is counter-accuse people who 'dare' accuse him of being scum because he knows he can get away with it. He's provided no evidence as to why he thinks I'm scum. STILL.
I have no idea why people are still hesitating on this. Meta-analysis would be SO GOOD here but I promised myself I wouldn't. Someone else could take a crack at it though if they wanted. It's pretty obvious.
BH you must be absolutely furious that I'm going to get you lynched today, but 'jubs gonna jub,' amirite?
Now I'm supposed to respond to Axle 'cause he's been asking me for a while so let me get to that, and then I'm around for discussion and such. That makes sense if you have just been discussing it in the scum QT. and now you are supposed to respond to Axle seeing as he just wont let the question go.... <<< wine that is easy to drink I have tried to find how a towny might have been thinking that would then have them write that. <<< wine that is too hard to drink As far as not responding to you immediately, I don't really see how that's scum indicative either. This is confiramtion bias and you are simply believing what fits your read of me. I simply said it because it was the truth, and upon looking back through the thread I realized I missed some queries you had of me. Nothing more. Vote me if you must Axle, but I would recommend you at least look into who else in this game is scum for once, because if I eventually flip town you are going to be completely lost, especially if you think BH is town. While the delay was concerning especially when repeated You appeared to miss the point so I adjusted the bolding in the quote. Gravman Said: "Now I'm supposed to respond to Axle 'cause he's been asking me for a while so let me get to that, and then I'm around for discussion and such." My problem was that you referred to it as 'supposed' to the use of that word seems wrong for town player acting alone, but makes sense if it is as a result of discussion elsewhere such as in the scum QT. Also This is your case (I believe) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18867420What kind of answers could have been given to these questions that would supported your case. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18859699 Oh I see, so you think I scumslipped, huh? Ok, good luck with that. Haha you picked a point that even BH wouldn't support. As for the 'fishing for answers,' honestly....I guess I don't have a sufficient way to prove this to you but you'll see in postgame or after I flip---you're looking way too deeply into this as though I had some mega overarching agenda here. With my questioning about his stance towards Vayne, had I been able to use meta I would shove it in his face that both Vayne AND I had beaten him in Les Mafia. I knew personally the only reason he thought at that point that Vayne was a good player was because of Les Mafia, which is a terrible reason. Scum play does not equal town play, and a SINGLE game of good play is not a good example to overall good play. I was trying to make it evident to the thread that BH's initial reasoning to calling VA a good mayoral choice was inherently flawed and his trumped up ego, thinking "well, he beat me, the best player of all time last game, so he MUST be good" is making the decisions for him. As I've pointed out, when dealing with players supposedly better than him he will suppress the egotistical nature but when dealing with anyone else it comes out to play. He uses it as it suits him. Axle I'm willing to continue to follow your endless questions until the cows come home, but is it ever going to stop? Are you ever going to contribute to the thread in any other way? It honestly worries me because I know I'm town and I'm pretty sure you are, and this is wasting a shot ton of time that could be put to more productive use. What can I do to get you to at least look elsewhere even if you keep your vote on me?
Find one of your scum buddies and lynch him?
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On June 14 2013 02:16 GravityMan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2013 02:06 AxleGreaser wrote:On June 14 2013 00:44 GravityMan wrote:On June 13 2013 22:18 AxleGreaser wrote:@everyone Time is passing. We need to have some wagons of Justice. Here is mine ##Vote GravityMan toLynch The case is not that hard but there are potentially lots of details. The case on blazing hand is wrong and weak, and making a bad case is not scum indicative. What is scum indicative is trying, to manufacture one, by provoking the responses that you need in advance of having the read. GM has been trying to provoke BH for rather a long time. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18859699read this post and decide if you think that was provocative. GM describes the purpose of that as http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18875432"For the record, I wasn't trying to be inflammatory necessarily with those questions, I was trying just to see what I could get BH to say and talk about regarding that topic." Go read the above post, he wanted him to answer that why? Was it inflammatory. if there were no examples of what he wanted to talk about why the asking? Why was he trying to lead him places? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18875124"There was no grand plan behind it, I suppose you could call it a combination of both. I wasn't exactly sure how BH would answer the questions if at all so it was more that I was trying to lead him in a direction where I could show the thread exactly how he is prone to act in certain situations." prone means they have not happened yet. if they had happened you could just point to those, no need to show the thread what BH is prone to if he has not done it? Why was he trying to lead him places? before the case existed. Bh has in fact for Bh been very restrained. BH was even called out by hapa for being less strident than normal D1 + Show Spoiler [some more of the details] + Axle, my problem here is you are also misrepresenting everything I do.The reason I was trying to 'lead' BH to talk about what I wanted him to is the artificial restraints I put on myself. Without the ability to talk about his meta I was forced to get him to talk about how he might act in certain situations so I could then bring it up as an example. I already had in my mind the idea that he was scum here but I wanted to try and flesh out more evidence. Yes it's 'leading the witness,' but it's for a good cause: getting my scumread lynched. You can call that a scum agenda if you want, but it's not. On June 13 2013 23:03 AxleGreaser wrote:This post is also interesting On June 13 2013 01:56 GravityMan wrote: What makes no sense to me now is how there are only two votes cast and GoodKarma is going to be lynched. Clearly if it walks like a scum, talks like a scum, and multiple people suspect him like a scum....
BH is still just creating shit about him and Oats. All he does is counter-accuse people who 'dare' accuse him of being scum because he knows he can get away with it. He's provided no evidence as to why he thinks I'm scum. STILL.
I have no idea why people are still hesitating on this. Meta-analysis would be SO GOOD here but I promised myself I wouldn't. Someone else could take a crack at it though if they wanted. It's pretty obvious.
BH you must be absolutely furious that I'm going to get you lynched today, but 'jubs gonna jub,' amirite?
Now I'm supposed to respond to Axle 'cause he's been asking me for a while so let me get to that, and then I'm around for discussion and such. That makes sense if you have just been discussing it in the scum QT. and now you are supposed to respond to Axle seeing as he just wont let the question go.... <<< wine that is easy to drink I have tried to find how a towny might have been thinking that would then have them write that. <<< wine that is too hard to drink As far as not responding to you immediately, I don't really see how that's scum indicative either. This is confiramtion bias and you are simply believing what fits your read of me. I simply said it because it was the truth, and upon looking back through the thread I realized I missed some queries you had of me. Nothing more. Vote me if you must Axle, but I would recommend you at least look into who else in this game is scum for once, because if I eventually flip town you are going to be completely lost, especially if you think BH is town. While the delay was concerning especially when repeated You appeared to miss the point so I adjusted the bolding in the quote. Gravman Said: "Now I'm supposed to respond to Axle 'cause he's been asking me for a while so let me get to that, and then I'm around for discussion and such." My problem was that you referred to it as 'supposed' to the use of that word seems wrong for town player acting alone, but makes sense if it is as a result of discussion elsewhere such as in the scum QT. Also This is your case (I believe) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18867420What kind of answers could have been given to these questions that would supported your case. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18859699 Oh I see, so you think I scumslipped, huh? Ok, good luck with that. Haha you picked a point that even BH wouldn't support. As for the 'fishing for answers,' honestly....I guess I don't have a sufficient way to prove this to you but you'll see in postgame or after I flip---you're looking way too deeply into this as though I had some mega overarching agenda here. With my questioning about his stance towards Vayne, had I been able to use meta I would shove it in his face that both Vayne AND I had beaten him in Les Mafia. I knew personally the only reason he thought at that point that Vayne was a good player was because of Les Mafia, which is a terrible reason. Scum play does not equal town play, and a SINGLE game of good play is not a good example to overall good play. I was trying to make it evident to the thread that BH's initial reasoning to calling VA a good mayoral choice was inherently flawed and his trumped up ego, thinking "well, he beat me, the best player of all time last game, so he MUST be good" is making the decisions for him. As I've pointed out, when dealing with players supposedly better than him he will suppress the egotistical nature but when dealing with anyone else it comes out to play. He uses it as it suits him. Axle I'm willing to continue to follow your endless questions until the cows come home, but is it ever going to stop? Are you ever going to contribute to the thread in any other way? It honestly worries me because I know I'm town and I'm pretty sure you are, and this is wasting a shot ton of time that could be put to more productive use. What can I do to get you to at least look elsewhere even if you keep your vote on me?
and even if it was true how did that make him scum?
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@Gravman You do see i asked you to explain your case To me, and how your point makes BH scum.
@BH
On June 14 2013 02:55 Blazinghand wrote: Hello friends. I'm back from dinner and ready to party. I suppose a VA lynch isn't possible today because he'll pardon himself; that's okay, we can still lynch GM.
##unvote ##vote GM
way back http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18859699 GM finished post saying
GM "What I am truly unsure about is the degree to which you(BH) actually care about your ego. I would think you're more likely to discard this ego as a scum player in favor of lying, but I cannot, of course, be sure."
have you any idea what he was thinking?
how is "discarding ego" even related to "lying"?
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Given that it is 4:30am here, I am going to have some brekky brb.
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@Gravman Please note I have read all of BHs end of day posts . BH flipped green is good player, so they have weight with me. I am starting my thoughts again as best I can.
Earlier you made the post below. What I want you to do is think back and explain why you posted this. What was your purpose and intent. How did it benefit town, who needed at that time to know you thought that?
+ Show Spoiler [your post] +On June 14 2013 00:38 GravityMan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 20:57 Sylencia wrote:On June 13 2013 09:07 goodkarma wrote:Catching up with the thread now. The first thing I'd like to address is this Syl post: On June 12 2013 22:35 Sylencia wrote:On June 12 2013 16:47 goodkarma wrote:On June 12 2013 16:15 Sylencia wrote: @GK: Why are you suggesting to waste a dayvig shot on me when the only reason you have is that I've been lurkier than others? You literally say before your 'analysis' on me that you think BH is scum and yet somehow I'm a more decent target for shooting? Ok.. I said you were flying under the radar, and that when you are here you seem to be content to agree with a stance here and there and not really add anything. It's not about your "lurkiness," but what you aren't doing when you are here. I'm assuming from what Vayne has said he plans to use his vig shot today. Therefore, we need to determine two scum candidates for this cycle. None of this really is that difficult to understand. While you're here, would you mind providing an opinion on anything? Or more specifically, perhaps elaborate on your top scumread? If Vayne wants to use it as a shot, why aren't we lynching a top suspect first, and shooting during the night? Unless there's some sort of claim that can only be checked by death, I don't see a reason why it should be rushed so. (I'm not reading the power wrong, right?) My top read at the time you posted was ShiaoPi, as I said I agreed with a lot of the points made by Stutters. I made that clear end of last night. I haven't fully digested ShiaoPi's response yet, but if I'm wrong on that account, my previous statement feels good: On June 12 2013 01:24 Sylencia wrote: @Oats: If GK doesn't have anything in the next 24 hours, I'd be willing to put money on a lurker scum team - something like him + stutters (maybe +1 if there's a third). The only one that sticks out is Blazinghand for causing chaos for no reason but idk if that's his playstyle - please fill me in there. Reasoning is everything has run too smoothly and there haven't felt like there have been any sort of misdirections so far. We had a blue claim on day 1, so having some sort of mayor takeover would be a pretty good idea in Day 1 for scum to take, as they can reliably target Vayne with no consequence. If he dies, he dies. If he doesn't, everyone just says someone protected him, and no one suspects the mayor. None of this happened, so unless Hapa is scum, everyone active seems town. Any problem with my reasoning? For catching up, only having an analysis of 4 players (2 of which seem like afterthoughts), and a weak scumread based a lot on meta is pretty bad. I've heard from BH enough that you have slow starts, but idk define slow start, how long is it going to take to get the ball rolling, and out of all the players how is it that you've got thoughts on 2 lurky players over someone with a lot more points to consider such as Grav/WoS and Oats? About GravityMan - I am also missing what is obvious about him that makes him scum according to BH, but the only point i"ll take from it is that he is the only one who disrupted Hapa's mayoral campaign with a sort of smear campaign against him. You can make reasons for why he did it if he's scum (potentially take power, and make hapa a suspect), but since that failed, would scum have chosen Hapa as the target of the NK over Vayne to clearly show that? Food for thought, seeing as that was the only real 'major' event that happened regarding mayoral campaigns. First of all, the entire point of mentioning a good vigishot for Vayne is we should be treating this cycle like a doublelynch, as Hapa originally suggested. Even if Vayne opts to wait until the night to shoot, by discussing this now we have that much more information to go on in later cycles. For that reason, everyone should be doing this. So you can't be bothered to review the latest posting of your top scumread, and you fall back on proposing a lurker scumteam if your top read convinces you he's town??? Explain to me how that isn't scum-motivated behavior? Further, I provided a read on Grav in the post you're referencing, so it's clear you aren't reading the thread very closely. This is the kind of disinterest I'd expect from scum. I still believe you'd be a good vigi shot. The fact I can actually rely on something which I believed to have been true from the night before shows the actual lack of contribution that you had brought to the table to this point. If I say you're scummy during N1, and you do nothing to change that view in D2, you're saying it's scum oriented for me to say I still think you're scum? Also yes, turns out I ended up thinking you did an analysis on GK which is yourself (it made perfect sense at the time somehow -_-). In any case: - Axle: How has this guy been able to fly under the radar this entire game? As far as I've read there's been very little suspicious cast on him, he's been questioned about his reads in which he's tip toed around the problem: On June 13 2013 08:23 AxleGreaser wrote:On June 13 2013 07:59 GravityMan wrote: Axle, who do YOU think is scum? We haven't had very many reads from you this game at all, just analysis and questions. There is the obvious list, of people who have not contributed much. There is the obvious list of turning Hapas list upside down and saying that. One thing i dont want to do is get all in a low post count townies face, and shut them down. So I wont be doing that. The least clear intention I have is you. I see what "looks" like a tendency to Lynch BH for being BH. I see posts that could well inflame him and make his ego come to the fore as town or scum. This could have been their intention, or not. It alludes to him suspecting GM (pretty much confirmed to be saying he suspects GM next post), but he doesn't push it at all. He said he doesn't want to shut a lurker down, but GM is far from a lurker, so why wouldn't he push a case there? If there's someone in this game who is a prime example of being neutral on pretty much everything, it's Axle. BH has been doing a lot of talking without a lot of pushing, but I'm pretty sure that Axle is a better option over BH. After a slow first half of Day 1, I think if BH was scum he'd easily adapt into a less active role in the game. He brings up points I don't think anyone else would be doing otherwise (possible VA fakeclaim etc.) and just by doing that I feel it's enough to justify keeping him around for longer. Without BH this town will be a dead town, with little to no deviation in thoughts. GK I'm still willing to put my vote on him, idk how slow a start can be, but even his vote on BH didn't have any substance to it. This is terrible honestly. Axle seems like the towniest town that ever towned, and this case misrepresents him entirely. I'm not sure why people are letting this go. He votes him based on the fact that Axle has been flying under the radar, and that he supposedly calls me a lurker? (hint: he's not referring to me) That's his entire reasoning. The whole thing in that one post. Why is Sylencia getting away with that exactly? I mean I'm not a fan of Axle right now because he's tunneled me for about half the game but at least he's doing it in a reasonable way' I don't see scum pushing a read like he has with the analysis that he's done, and I've played with scum Axle before. Now I have to get to Axle's case on me....sigh. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18880452 Link for Thread Context
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On June 14 2013 13:24 Sylencia wrote: Also, shooting GK is better ^-^
@Syl I am here, and I am one of your higher scum reads
+ Show Spoiler +On June 14 2013 01:04 Sylencia wrote: Because it's fairly clear that I'm the only one who had thought of Axle that way pretty quickly. I'm still putting him in the possible scum pile though.
Oatsmaster Blazinghand Stutters695 VayneAuthority GravityMan ShiaoPi AxleGreaser Goodkarma
Town->scum order for me is some sort of rough order like this, a lot of them are close though. The fact Vayne is so damn low for a cop claim is pretty retarded though.
were there any questions you might have for me?
was there anyway you were unsure about why i was doing things?
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On June 14 2013 15:06 GravityMan wrote: Welp, that answers our question as to who to lynch tomorrow.
Who?
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On June 14 2013 15:10 AxleGreaser wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2013 15:06 GravityMan wrote: Welp, that answers our question as to who to lynch tomorrow. Who?
and of course why.
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On June 14 2013 15:16 GravityMan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2013 15:12 AxleGreaser wrote:On June 14 2013 15:10 AxleGreaser wrote:On June 14 2013 15:06 GravityMan wrote: Welp, that answers our question as to who to lynch tomorrow. Who? and of course why. Answer it yourself. I'm sick of your questions.
Ok. Vayne shot pre-emptively ending the days discussions. That has scum motivations and achieves a scum purpose ending discussion.
But why Vayne did it matters. Is he bad? or scum. I want to know as well.
I don't however want todays discussion terminated and tomorrows as well because it is decided as a fete accompli that we are going to lynch him.
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On June 14 2013 16:07 AxleGreaser wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2013 15:16 GravityMan wrote:On June 14 2013 15:12 AxleGreaser wrote:On June 14 2013 15:10 AxleGreaser wrote:On June 14 2013 15:06 GravityMan wrote: Welp, that answers our question as to who to lynch tomorrow. Who? and of course why. Answer it yourself. I'm sick of your questions. Ok. Vayne shot pre-emptively ending the days discussions. That has scum motivations and achieves a scum purpose ending discussion. But why Vayne did it matters. Is he bad? or scum. I want to know as well. I don't however want todays discussion terminated and tomorrows as well because it is decided as a fete accompli that we are going to lynch him. EBWOP sorry apparently he didnt.
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A NOT LOL & LOL The spoiler does not contain a LOL, . It is a NOT LOL. + Show Spoiler [The fourth snowman.] +Skip was lying in sunny meadow surronded by rabbits. They were all staring at him adoringly. + Show Spoiler [dramatic pause] +Skip shuddered and woke up. Bloody Nightmares, thought skip. He was about to think they were coming more often lately, when he heard Axle walking down the hallway. The unmistakeable rattle of his lead, prompted skip to get up. The pain. He had fogotten about that. He was about to have stretch when he thought better of it. He trotted over to Axle which turned out to be walking over to him. Axle was a good pack leader he always caught food. Skip wasn't sure how but they would go out walk around and not even chase anything but every time when they got home there was food. Weird. As they walked out the front door, he heard the car keys. Oh good thought skipp he liked car trips that meant walking with new smells. The drove for while until they turned into carpark that skip recognised. He looked at axle. Why axle, why bring me here where they hurt me, don't I hurt enough already. He thought about resisting but Axle was a good pack leader, Skip would be brave. They walked straight into the small room and Axle lifted him up onto the table. Thats strange thought Skip I am the one thats going to be hurt and he's crying. Here comes the bad smell man and here comes the pain. Thats weird , the pain stopped and its getting darker.+ Show Spoiler + RIP skip dont trip on your way out.[/skip]
This spoiler does not contain a not LOL, . + Show Spoiler [epilogue LOL] + Skip : hey Axle? Axle: yes skip Skip: do you remember how you asked if it was weird to be able remember dying when dying is usually something you haven't done yet.? Axle: yes skip Skip: and I told you it was timey whimey. Axle: [i]yeesss skip[/i] Skip: I was wrong. Axle: Axle: Skip: It is timey whimey and its weird.. Axle: ok.
They approached a bend in the road. There were two trees a distance off to side. Skip: wait here. Skip trotted over to the trees, looked at the left one, then walked over to the other one. Skip: barked once. A steak fell out of the tree. And skip promptly ate it. Skip: barked twice. A ball fell out of the tree. Skip trotted back to Axle with the ball.
Axle: that was [b]Weird[/b] Skip: and Timey Whimey Axle: Yep
They continued to walk, in the distance was yet another town.
Skip: I wonder what that towns called? Axle: I dont know. Skip: I wonder how long until we get there? Axle: I dont know. Axle: Skip. Skip: yes. Axle: You do ask rather a lot of questions. Skip: yes I noticed that and I htought it was weird too. Axle: How come weird? Skip: Well [b]now[/b] I can talk. Axle: you are right that is weird.
gg all and thanks for hosting! Loved the setup, esp the effect of the mayor. There are more decisions. Decide how much to spend on mayor, when to hunt. n1 mayor has to decide whether to shoot or not. (There are multiple risks.) n1 is spent hunting scum not wifoaming D2 new mayor (possibly still with shot) (choices for the who is the next mayor) ... stuff happens... and then you die. GG HF... and do it again.
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Shiaopi: Oh yeah and Shiaopi I nominate you for best strategic (scum) post of the game.
That D1 case is what opened up the game IMO.
Sorry about that Syl, if wed shot someone else you could have won too.
So: nominate Syl for MVP town!
also the mayoral setup thing is pretty cool. It keeps the game moving and make people make more choices.
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On June 15 2013 12:27 Sylencia wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2013 01:04 Sylencia wrote: Because it's fairly clear that I'm the only one who had thought of Axle that way pretty quickly. I'm still putting him in the possible scum pile though.
Oatsmaster Blazinghand Stutters695 VayneAuthority GravityMan ShiaoPi AxleGreaser Goodkarma
Town->scum order for me is some sort of rough order like this, a lot of them are close though. The fact Vayne is so damn low for a cop claim is pretty retarded though. I'll just leave this here cause I'm so mad right now, not even being town and I got everything correct at that stage -_____-
yeah.... you shoulda seen my shorts.
also syl if there is anythign that happened in the game you wish to ask me about in PM I will tell you why towny Axle did that. Our wires were a bit crossed at times. ditto others.
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On June 15 2013 12:28 WaveofShadow wrote: Oh and it seems since all of my reads were SO fucking off this game I really DO need to rely a little on meta. That experiment was certainly a failure.
yes and no. about meta and the problems of context and sample size.
I suspect meta without enough context is really how people misread me. In ego and LiX, imo my scum game was but at least in part was for various aspects of context that didn't apply this time (size and IRL etal) also i think my townie play got townier since noir.
That was a perfect storm for what happened regards me. (edit:Also reading the end game post just now there was perfect storm of actions as well) someone (BH?) somewhere in the thread noted one good game isn't the same as being good player shit happens it did and then it rained.
The other guys they also from reports (of previous games) played better than normal. I didnt read any meta on my scum buddies. but a meta shift in the whole scum team is going to do stuff.
So direct (simple) comparisons with meta is IMO dangerous too.
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On June 15 2013 12:37 Hapahauli wrote: I will say that town had absolutely no chance of lynching scum on Day 1 given the activity. Day 2 was much more active, but the atmosphere was completely toxic. It was an absolute masterpiece by Shaio, and your scum-capabilities are duly noted. yeah i was thinking it might be noted....
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On June 15 2013 12:31 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2013 12:30 AxleGreaser wrote:On June 15 2013 12:27 Sylencia wrote:On June 14 2013 01:04 Sylencia wrote: Because it's fairly clear that I'm the only one who had thought of Axle that way pretty quickly. I'm still putting him in the possible scum pile though.
Oatsmaster Blazinghand Stutters695 VayneAuthority GravityMan ShiaoPi AxleGreaser Goodkarma
Town->scum order for me is some sort of rough order like this, a lot of them are close though. The fact Vayne is so damn low for a cop claim is pretty retarded though. I'll just leave this here cause I'm so mad right now, not even being town and I got everything correct at that stage -_____- yeah.... you shoulda seen my shorts. also syl if there is anythign that happened in the game you wish to ask me about in PM I will tell you why towny Axle did that. Our wires were a bit crossed at times. ditto others. Like...I don't even know how I would have come up with a good case on you this game.
Which why a bit I was holy what the! how the hell did Syl do that.
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On June 15 2013 12:52 Oatsmaster wrote:gg axle and shiao. Axle, really great game. Much improved play. Caught GK off 1 post
Stopped clocks
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On June 15 2013 13:01 Blazinghand wrote: WoS don't you even worry I am the calmest most forgiving fellow possible. When have I ever been mad at you in a game?
Whenever it was necessary for the alignment your PM sent you? ahhh.
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On June 15 2013 13:09 Oatsmaster wrote:Anyway, nothing in game is personal, and I had a lot of fun in this game Cora
That can be hard to remember, but it is rather important.
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On June 15 2013 13:11 AxleGreaser wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2013 13:09 Oatsmaster wrote:Anyway, nothing in game is personal, and I had a lot of fun in this game Cora That can be hard to remember, but it is rather important.
A town lesson I plan to try and learn when i go back and read the game i what exactly was it that gets lurker aligned players to talk and provide alignment indicative information. and some other things...
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On June 15 2013 13:16 Blazinghand wrote: I think smurfing is fine! When I actually manage to not break smurf I find I play pretty well and scumhunt (or be scum) better than I typically do on Blazinghand.
Forcing too far, will feel wrong, I suspect what made me think (from D1) GM who turned to be(WoS) was scum (yeah I know?)(or could be fitted up as such) was actually him thinking so hard about the image of the smurf he was portraying. Also in the last night when he was at the task of being the one asking questions, asking about his own personal alignment read from someone else is bit, of a trap. So what if someone thinks your scum when you are town you may look scummy to them. and why as town are you concerned so much with how you look.
and without meta to say Thats what X always feels like
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Oh yeah, and sometime a bit later I will put my dinner post in the thread here and you will see why didnt post it in the thread. <my dinner pic here real soon> (just have to scrape it off the screen where I shot it first).
Edit: Got it scraped off at last. + Show Spoiler [Axles Normal Dinner pic] +
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On June 15 2013 13:42 ShiaoPi wrote: I just thought let's try it xD I mean it was much in line with early game shenanigans
apparently the whole scum team spontaneously decided to play go big or go home
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On June 15 2013 14:12 WaveofShadow wrote: lol reading your QT now I remember Prom calling us (Les Mafia) the most tryhard scumteam he'd ever seen.
We had NOTHING on you guys.
I just realised my QT post count may have been higher than in the game... the number of words would be less though.
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sorry edit muck up was fixing stuff I type to fast earlier.
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On June 15 2013 15:01 jampidampi wrote: Well played scum team, well played. It's kinda funny that this game could have ended D2 if scum won the election. 7-3-1 misslynch 6-3-1 nightkill 5-3-1 mayor condemns 4-3-1 and then the survior votes with scum and they have a majority.
Good thing hapa didnt roll scum then
also neither the survivor nor the scum mayor would be sure the other existed. but yeah a scum mayor D1 looks bad
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On June 15 2013 23:53 jampidampi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2013 20:19 AxleGreaser wrote:On June 15 2013 15:01 jampidampi wrote: Well played scum team, well played. It's kinda funny that this game could have ended D2 if scum won the election. 7-3-1 misslynch 6-3-1 nightkill 5-3-1 mayor condemns 4-3-1 and then the survior votes with scum and they have a majority. Good thing hapa didnt roll scum then also neither the survivor nor the scum mayor would be sure the other existed. but yeah a scum mayor D1 looks bad Even if scum don't know there is a survivor, it's still D2 LYLO.
Oh yeah, didnt think of that, from that point of view.
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On June 16 2013 11:02 goodkarma wrote:Well, anywho, I figured I'd outline some of my thoughts on this game. Without a doubt Axle (especially) and Shao did some of the heavy lifting for scumteam this game. But I definitely believe that my scumgame also had its place on the team. + Show Spoiler [Good Stuff] +"Replacement" ShenanniesI definitely did make a point of "milking" my status as replacement. I bet that Marv comes in here and says that's unsportsmanlike, but it was definitely the right move as far as I was concerned. I replaced in at night, and immediately I had identified Hapa as the only real threat to getting me lynched early. BH I felt would be sore from misreading me last game. And everyone else I felt wouldn't be taking the lead in determining who should be lynched, especially with Axle and Shao looking so "townie." As such, I knew that when Hapa had been removed I'd be in a spot of relative safety. And as for Oats's suspicions of me from my first post, I was never really worried that he'd get me lynched. He may have been right about me, but I felt it was for the wrong reasons. To be sure I probably would have had reads out sooner, but my first post would have been the same regardless of alignment. And what's more, if he was serious about lynching me he should have been at the very least spamming his case in addition to saying I should be killed a bajillion times. I'm under the impression that town kind of lost sight of why Oats wanted me dead so bad, and what that meant is he kind of came off as a bit of a mad-man. As for his case, it literally came down to "omg your first post," which certainly wasn't that hot. But I hadn't read the game, only skimmed it. And as a replacement I felt compelled to full-read it before taking any real stances. Like that is something I would have done regardless of alignment. I'll definitely try to keep up with any game I might replace into in the future so that such shenanies don't occur again. Soft Pushing BH Mislynch:Because of how handily cheesed town was this game, people seem to overlook the implications of looking super-townie for scum after a mislynch or two. Like town tends to be pretty emotional and fickle, and will easily turn on you the moment it's clear that you were steering a mislynch. While Axle and Shao were pushing their own wagons, I made a cute little case on BH and sat my vote on him. When it became clear that no one cared to move their votes around to prevent the mislynch, I decided to sit there and literally afk lurk from thread. I felt BH looked townie enough that he shouldn't be mislynched close to the end of the day cycle, and as such I just let it happen. It was far easier in my mind to lurk it out, than to explain how I actively pushed a mislynch the next day. I mean it was pretty clear the results were the same. The main objective I had as scum was to see to it that the town was lacking any kind of leadership ability whatsoever, so while BH was playing pretty poorly, I was moreso worried about the discussion he could draw than of any of his actual analysis (if that makes any sense). Post-BH Lynch: Setting myself up for possible Bus and Buddying VayneIt was pretty clear that the game was almost, if not already won, at this point. However, I was aware that if night actions went the wrong way things could fall apart. I made the decision to bus Shao a bit, as I was pretty certain that if it came to choosing between the two of us I'd probably get lynched. And Shao would come off as looking very townie in the process. If somehow we didn't get mayor the next day, "town cred" was (even at the expense of me) all our scumteam needed, because if we ever got mayorship town would be changed from a LYLO situation to a losing situation. In the scenario where it lasted another day (without us getting mayor), I felt getting me lynched was a way to secure the mayorship. In the background, I was thinking of NK'ing Oats that night. He was not really a threat as far as getting us lynched, but then again he did look townie and kept talking. Above all else, I wanted a lurky-town without direction, so he seemed like a reasonable target. But then we saw in-game Syl came out with that great post calling all of us out. On top of that, he in-thread suggested he wasn't a vanilla-townie. We took this to mean he was blue, but turned out he was 3P... We had a big argument in scum QT over whether he was RB-er lol. Thankfully, Stutters RB'ed him for us though it really didn't even matter if our shot went through. And with Vayne, it was pretty clear he'd be an easy mislynch the next day. If anyone were to look at his prior townplay, it's pretty obvious he isn't the most transparent guy with his thoughts and actions. He definitely wasn't playing stellar this game, but if you compare this game to his scumgame, you really should have been asking yourself if he'd attract attention to himself the way he did. The Oats shot was especially bad, but kind of a towntell in some ways. Like he could easily have asked for more town feedback, and taken an opportune shot as scum. And in the process, looked a little less suspicious. The big thing though, is there were no counter-claims to his cop claim. And sure he could have faked it, but why would you take the chance when you haven't flipped any scum yet? Like it was pretty much LYLO, so if you don't get everything right you're finished anyway. So why not seek to lynch the other scum first, and see if the RB-er even exists? As town, people tend to suspect those that suspect them. This is a bit subpar imho, but it is something that happens just as an emotional aspect of this game. As such, I figured I might as well suggest Vayne wasn't a good target. Going against thread sentiment in that way I felt made me look townier. And on top of that, lynching Vayne was flat-out bad given the circumstances. It kind of surprised me how much town wanted him lynched tbh. I mean hate on my lurkish scum-play all you want, but in the end I somehow came off as townie enough at least to Vayne to get the mayorship and effectively end the game day 3. I also had WoS fooled, which doesn't really surprise me given that he has some lowly opinion of me as "lynchbait" which I fully exploited this game. I also "townread" Stutters a bit because it felt natural to do so (I mean I do this a lot with him). Honestly, though, his early play really didn't warrant it. It came down to choosing my enemies. I didn't want to go down hard on too many townies, and townreading a few definitely helped me make enough friends to survive until the end of the game. Regarding Our Overall Scumplay:Syl was able to spot our whole scumteam. What that should show to all of town is that we were definitely all spot-able. There was a profound degree of bias running in this game, as in people would set in their mind who was town and never reassess their reads. Most notable here is Axle, who everyone seemed to believe was town. The lesson that should be learned here is that effortfulness =/= towniness. Like Axle spent pretty much half the game half-heartedly pushing Wave, and no one seemed to care... He asked a lot of questions, but never really seemed to spend a whole lot of time actually pushing a case. This was pretty much exactly what Syl was saying, and it was spot-on. Shao also had some pretty telling moments. Last-minute voting a candidate that had literally zero chance of getting lynched was certainly one of them... As was how wishy-washy he was in taking a stance on me. But more telling than any of that in my mind was activity. Axle and Shao were both guilty of this: post-day one they posted far less content. Which if they were paragons of town makes no sense, since town needed them more than ever at that point. They literally coasted by on day one reputation for most of the game. That's not to downplay their scumgames, they were incredible. Anyway, those are my thoughts. Thanks to the hosts for putting up with scumteam submitting day 2 actions three times (lol), for putting up with my wishy-washyness in replacing in, and for putting together a fun game And thanks to my scumpals for playing such crazy good scumgames <3
The game has still been running (wifoming) around in my head since it ended. and i had noticed an omission on my part. I got up to here(above the spoiler) and thought yes(because I wanted place to post this post).
and the thought I had was oops, GK... our Glorious in victory mayor.... So yeah you had place on our team.. You were our GoodKarma scum Mayor
Not everybody on every team does the same job. Even if one of us had bussed the other two, its not the one guy alive at the end that did it. it might be the one guy that saw they were going down early enough and positioned the others to ride it.
+ Show Spoiler [lame excuses] + Why I forgot at the end. During D1 I kept jamming in my head, omg must nominate that D1 case. Then that loooong wait then gush. So sorry GK. We didn't talk about that stuff you posted above during the game, I was mainly just hoping youd do Ok, but .... errr ... wow. With scum buddies like you not flipping and hence zero linkages, distancing, ...
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On June 16 2013 21:14 Sylencia wrote: town just needs to be less close minded
In my mind there are always possibilities. (Some of them are there because i am bad at the game and think stuff possible/plausible that isnt.(see previous games for numerous examples))
In this game near the end I said + Show Spoiler +Ok. Vayne shot pre-emptively ending the days discussions. That has scum motivations and achieves a scum purpose ending discussion.
But why Vayne did it matters. Is he bad? or scum. I want to know as well.
I don't however want todays discussion terminated and tomorrows as well because it is decided as a fete accompli that we are going to lynch him.
even that is not all of the things that were, to me, possible.
I am sure some of the other things, are silly as they involve me guessing what Vayne was guessing was going on, and that doubles the error. Here you(the reader) try... What for instance would Vayne do if he thought there was small chance I was scum. Yoloing shot on me and being wrong would have been absolutely game losing. Hitting my scum buddy.. could open up the connections. Or if i was town hitting person who might be hiding in plain sight and had me totally fooled might... Once you open your mind and remember the other person making the decisions has different information and guesses about what is going on to you, I find the game becomes more complex, that is one of the reasons I used to freeze in headlights.
Note to vayne: No need to spoil anything by saying why. The point of the above is not to know why but to see why wondering is important. Of course if you want you can say why or not.
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On June 17 2013 13:24 VayneAuthority wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2013 12:26 AxleGreaser wrote:On June 16 2013 21:14 Sylencia wrote: town just needs to be less close minded In my mind there are always possibilities. (Some of them are there because i am bad at the game and think stuff possible/plausible that isnt.(see previous games for numerous examples)) In this game near the end I said + Show Spoiler +Ok. Vayne shot pre-emptively ending the days discussions. That has scum motivations and achieves a scum purpose ending discussion.
But why Vayne did it matters. Is he bad? or scum. I want to know as well.
I don't however want todays discussion terminated and tomorrows as well because it is decided as a fete accompli that we are going to lynch him.
even that is not all of the things that were, to me, possible. I am sure some of the other things, are silly as they involve me guessing what Vayne was guessing was going on, and that doubles the error. Here you(the reader) try... What for instance would Vayne do if he thought there was small chance I was scum. Yoloing shot on me and being wrong would have been absolutely game losing. Hitting my scum buddy.. could open up the connections. Or if i was town hitting person who might be hiding in plain sight and had me totally fooled might... Once you open your mind and remember the other person making the decisions has different information and guesses about what is going on to you, I find the game becomes more complex, that is one of the reasons I used to freeze in headlights. Note to vayne: No need to spoil anything by saying why. The point of the above is not to know why but to see why wondering is important. Of course if you want you can say why or not. Doubt anyone will believe me but take it for what its worth: I secretly wanted to shoot you the entire game since you were basically playing one of my favorite scum metas, where you just ask a bunch of useless questions the whole game that seem townie. I wrote it off as how you play though since Hapa townread you and my downfall this game was putting too much weight into what Hapa thought. Didn't think shaio or GK was scum. What caused me to shoot Oats was his flipflopping on the BH lynch, go through his filter around that time and it just looks ridiculous. I had to shoot him on sight. I played terrible and I will be the first to admit it, just not during the game.
I have a really bad feeling it might be quite a bit like how I play town... and BTW many of the questions would not be useless to me if I had been town. That you don't know why I ask the questions, or what answers will tell me you are scum or town, will if I also get my towny game together, be my edge.
Oh and BTW its now my favourite scum meta,
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This thread seems to be in serious risk of taking itself seriously... (Well Ok, I was and that always turns out bad) A seriously axle post will thus fill this space shortly...
In the meantime here is some elevator music...
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(edit: typo "" => "be")
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