On June 04 2013 05:15 Blazinghand wrote: The thing is, I can't really blame DP since he wasn't town. If DP was a townie, I 100% promise you'd be lording this over him! I'd be like "time to change your signature huehuehue" and so on. After the game though DP mentioned that yeah, he realized I was townie partway through D2 but as a survivor he'd be fine securing a 2nd mislynch, especially since I had explicitly mentioned him as a townread. Like, DP played quite well and I have no criticism of his play. If he thought I was scum and was playing for a town win, then yeah that was bad, but he was like "oh I guess I'll play for a scum win instead" partway through D2, and it was the right move. He even had me fooled! I'm not sure whether he or Vayne played the best game this game, but I might even say DP might have had the best individual performance.
That's the same thing you admonish other players for, though. You had a townread for his first-cycle play and were not able to change that even when he played "for" mafia. This shit is not anybody's "fault", though, it's basic human behaviorism to just stick with what used to be your thoughts previously. And it obviously goes all possible ways.
What I hope you learn from this game is that you absolutely cannot, ever, expect a player, no matter how "good" you think he is, to play objectively well. It's just bad thinking, wrong, and doesn't get you anywhere.
Wave did the same mistake from the other direction, constantly worrying about marv suddenly figuring the game out (even after days of him not motioning even slightly to go anywhere near that direction)
99% of the times, it's not gonna happen. Don't rely on other players to play the game for you. Etc.
The problem is you think it was a skill level issue when the problem was people played by the setup in a closed setup. If a mason wasn't already dead this game would be very different. Even as scum, I was trying to get people to stop thinking in terms of setup and think in terms of motive but to no avail. Its one of the things that really bothers me, when people play by meta and setup rather than by motive/logic
On June 04 2013 05:15 Blazinghand wrote: The thing is, I can't really blame DP since he wasn't town. If DP was a townie, I 100% promise you'd be lording this over him! I'd be like "time to change your signature huehuehue" and so on. After the game though DP mentioned that yeah, he realized I was townie partway through D2 but as a survivor he'd be fine securing a 2nd mislynch, especially since I had explicitly mentioned him as a townread. Like, DP played quite well and I have no criticism of his play. If he thought I was scum and was playing for a town win, then yeah that was bad, but he was like "oh I guess I'll play for a scum win instead" partway through D2, and it was the right move. He even had me fooled! I'm not sure whether he or Vayne played the best game this game, but I might even say DP might have had the best individual performance.
That's the same thing you admonish other players for, though. You had a townread for his first-cycle play and were not able to change that even when he played "for" mafia. This shit is not anybody's "fault", though, it's basic human behaviorism to just stick with what used to be your thoughts previously. And it obviously goes all possible ways.
What I hope you learn from this game is that you absolutely cannot, ever, expect a player, no matter how "good" you think he is, to play objectively well. It's just bad thinking, wrong, and doesn't get you anywhere.
Wave did the same mistake from the other direction, constantly worrying about marv suddenly figuring the game out (even after days of him not motioning even slightly to go anywhere near that direction)
99% of the times, it's not gonna happen. Don't rely on other players to play the game for you. Etc.
Like, I consider my final read on DP to still be okay, just not good. He was playing for the scum but I still couldn't see scum jumping on and pushing my scumslip like that-- and I was right, in a way, since he wasn't scum. I knew something was up with him, as I posted my my final read post, but basically, as a survivor he was never worth lynching. I'd say that my townread on DP was not a mistake in the same way that my scumread on GK was. Successfully reading a survivor is hard, and lynching DP would have been a mislynch.
And yeah I realized that I can't rely on others, as I have posted previously.
On June 04 2013 05:25 VayneAuthority wrote: The problem is you think it was a skill level issue when the problem was people played by the setup in a closed setup. If a mason wasn't already dead this game would be very different. Even as scum, I was trying to get people to stop thinking in terms of setup and think in terms of motive but to no avail. Its one of the things that really bothers me, when people play by meta and setup rather than by motive/logic
Oh yeah Iamp claiming 7 minutes before the deadline screwed me, but it's not like the guy played bad otherwise. (he also might have had time restrictions and couldn't post like 30 seconds before the deadline). If it weren't for that play, he'd be MVP imo. This setup was specifically a "don't speculate about the setup" setup with 2 half-masons and a 1-kp scum team with a 2-shot vigi. I personally don't speculate about setups much, but I get why people do it.
And I don't think people were too "unskilled" to realize I was town. I think skill in mafia is more about being able to make good cases and reads than it is about recognizing them. Even a "bad" townie knows how to sheep. It's not the job of most townies to recognize when a wagon or tunnel goes bad, it's the job of those who step forwards to lead the town to do that. If everyone thought independently, I could blame them, but most people follow the herd, even against their best instincts. I know that I certainly have sheeped cases because it's a lot easier to recognize a good case than to write one. Changing your mind on someone you've thought is scum for 48 hours is hard.
I'm just wondering what I could have done given my time restrictions to do better. N1 I'm fairly sure I should have briefly rebuffed DP then hunted scum, even though doing so is against my nature. Any comments about the last half of D2?
Signing up for more games than you can handle DOES show a lack of care. You placed yourself in the situation to be neglectful of the game. It's not like it was your only game and stuff going on in real life was keeping you away. Other games contributed to keeping you away. Saying you didn't care is pretty fair I think.
I don't think anybody is saying that you didn't play really well when you had the time. So, when you did care, it showed.
To answer your question, the only thing you could have done differently is to start sooner. Even then, it may not have been enough. Stopping a lynch that is backed by an empty day 1 and a scum slip in 24 hours is really tough, especially when the people who were talking were keeping the lynch mostly on track. I don't think there was much you could have done better when you actually put the effort in.
Scrabbling for town MVP and blaming others though is just really distasteful. We've recognized your play when you tried, and it's on you to just own the original mistake. It should end here. I don't really feel it's your place to be questioning others about why they didn't clean up your mess. You've since talked a little more on this though...I digress.
Saying I didn't care during D1 isn't fair. Saying I didn't show an appropriate amount of care during the signups phase is reasonable. And I've taken steps (again) to address this going forwards. I would have liked to have gotten more done in the first half of D2 but I really just didn't have the time. By then I was actually dead in the other 2 games, but I had a job interview and really couldn't spare the time for serious play. As a matter of conduct I don't mention IRL stuff in games though since that's always meaningless.
And like, I legitimately think my play this game was great when I had time for it, and clearly it didn't "show" that I cared (or maybe it did, and didn't show that it was town) because I still got lynched. But is that really it? Given my time restrictions, nothing I could have done better, just make sure not to sign up for too many games at once next time?
Also like 100% it's legitimate for me to place some of the blame for my lynch on other people, just as legitimate as it is for me to blame myself for the lynch. I guess my decision to sign up for multiple games was the main reason for my mislynch, giving me primary fault-- but the secondary fault falls on the part of the most vocal and capable townie, Marv. And I also think it's totally legitimate for me to think I'm the town MVP of this game. Sure, I got mislynched, and sure, I basically pushed mislynches on both GK and Sputnik Theory (though ST had to be lynched eventually anyways) but I think I played like a champ.
I believe it is totally my place to question others on why they didn't "clean up my mess" because part of being a good townie is differentiating bad town from scum. AND, even if I'm not right to blame Marv or Yamato or whoever, I sure as hell am right to question them about it and try to make sure everyone plays better next time, right?
Like, for what it's worth I'm genuinely upset that I got mislynched. I like to think of myself as a player who almost always contributes positively to his team winning. And I am aware that most people get mislynched at least sometimes, and that this game I got mislynched in part because I personally chose to sign up for 3 games within a 10 day span, but I still don't like getting mislynched. And if the only lessons I can draw from this game are "don't rely on others to save you", "sign up for 1 game at a time", and "when accused, even if the guy is wrong, focus more on scumhunting to clear yourself" then that's okay. But I still feel bad about getting mislynched. I don't think of myself as a guy who gets mislynched.
On June 04 2013 05:57 Blazinghand wrote: Like, for what it's worth I'm genuinely upset that I got mislynched. I like to think of myself as a player who almost always contributes positively to his team winning. And I am aware that most people get mislynched at least sometimes, and that this game I got mislynched in part because I personally chose to sign up for 3 games within a 10 day span, but I still don't like getting mislynched. And if the only lessons I can draw from this game are "don't rely on others to save you", "sign up for 1 game at a time", and "when accused, even if the guy is wrong, focus more on scumhunting to clear yourself" then that's okay. But I still feel bad about getting mislynched. I don't think of myself as a guy who gets mislynched.
I think it's time to take a deep breath and set fire to your feelings about being mislynched as they float downriver in a wooden boat.
On June 04 2013 05:57 Blazinghand wrote: Like, for what it's worth I'm genuinely upset that I got mislynched. I like to think of myself as a player who almost always contributes positively to his team winning. And I am aware that most people get mislynched at least sometimes, and that this game I got mislynched in part because I personally chose to sign up for 3 games within a 10 day span, but I still don't like getting mislynched. And if the only lessons I can draw from this game are "don't rely on others to save you", "sign up for 1 game at a time", and "when accused, even if the guy is wrong, focus more on scumhunting to clear yourself" then that's okay. But I still feel bad about getting mislynched. I don't think of myself as a guy who gets mislynched.
I think it's time to take a deep breath and set fire to your feelings about being mislynched as they float downriver in a wooden boat.
Let it go.
I did that a week ago, and coming back, I still feel like I need to learn or teach a lesson from this. You don't improve (or rather, I don't improve) by letting things go. I improve by finding out my mistakes and not repeating them.
Most people accept getting mislynched as part of the game, and that's fine. I find it unacceptable. A good closing thought for this game isn't "I made a mistake", but rather, "I made a mistake, and I won't make it again, and here's how."
On June 04 2013 05:57 Blazinghand wrote: Like, for what it's worth I'm genuinely upset that I got mislynched. I like to think of myself as a player who almost always contributes positively to his team winning. And I am aware that most people get mislynched at least sometimes, and that this game I got mislynched in part because I personally chose to sign up for 3 games within a 10 day span, but I still don't like getting mislynched. And if the only lessons I can draw from this game are "don't rely on others to save you", "sign up for 1 game at a time", and "when accused, even if the guy is wrong, focus more on scumhunting to clear yourself" then that's okay. But I still feel bad about getting mislynched. I don't think of myself as a guy who gets mislynched.
I think it's time to take a deep breath and set fire to your feelings about being mislynched as they float downriver in a wooden boat.
Let it go.
I did that a week ago, and coming back, I still feel like I need to learn or teach a lesson from this. You don't improve (or rather, I don't improve) by letting things go. I improve by finding out my mistakes and not repeating them.
The long and short of it is this; it was about 48 hours between the time you said you were going to search for mafia and when you actually looked for mafia.
You did look pretty townie when you looked for mafia, yes. But you left it too late that there existed a very real possibility (in my mind) that you'd put it off for so long so you could just make one enormous effort to stave off your lynch, and that also you could gauge town reactions.
My gut call towards the end of day 2 was that you were town, but my gut's been plenty wrong before, and given the slip + 48hour scumhunting gap, I didn't have the confidence to move the lynch elsewhere.
If you say you're going to scumhunt on Sunday evening and you only produce something Tuesday evening despite multiple promise in between, it smells. Even after you argued with DP on Sunday evening, you had Monday to do shit, and you did nothing that day either despite repeatedly promising to. If you're short of time then don't promise shit you can't deliver...
On June 04 2013 05:57 Blazinghand wrote: Like, for what it's worth I'm genuinely upset that I got mislynched. I like to think of myself as a player who almost always contributes positively to his team winning. And I am aware that most people get mislynched at least sometimes, and that this game I got mislynched in part because I personally chose to sign up for 3 games within a 10 day span, but I still don't like getting mislynched. And if the only lessons I can draw from this game are "don't rely on others to save you", "sign up for 1 game at a time", and "when accused, even if the guy is wrong, focus more on scumhunting to clear yourself" then that's okay. But I still feel bad about getting mislynched. I don't think of myself as a guy who gets mislynched.
I think it's time to take a deep breath and set fire to your feelings about being mislynched as they float downriver in a wooden boat.
Let it go.
I did that a week ago, and coming back, I still feel like I need to learn or teach a lesson from this. You don't improve (or rather, I don't improve) by letting things go. I improve by finding out my mistakes and not repeating them.
The long and short of it is this; it was about 48 hours between the time you said you were going to search for mafia and when you actually looked for mafia.
You did look pretty townie when you looked for mafia, yes. But you left it too late that there existed a very real possibility (in my mind) that you'd put it off for so long so you could just make one enormous effort to stave off your lynch, and that also you could gauge town reactions.
My gut call towards the end of day 2 was that you were town, but my gut's been plenty wrong before, and given the slip + 48hour scumhunting gap, I didn't have the confidence to move the lynch elsewhere.
If you say you're going to scumhunt on Sunday evening and you only produce something Tuesday evening despite multiple promise in between, it smells. Even after you argued with DP on Sunday evening, you had Monday to do shit, and you did nothing that day either despite repeatedly promising to. If you're short of time then don't promise shit you can't deliver...
Reasonable enough. So I should have stated I'd be busy for the first half of D2, and would contribute later. I didn't anticipate needing a long time to prepare for the interview, but it happened and I should have accounted for that, or at least kept the thread better updated on my activity. Thank you for the advice.
yeah the problem was on the monday, you came back with more explanations of why you'd argued with DP (which i could kinda accept as being from town you at this point) and more talk of scumhunting.
it was like this empty day as far as you were concerned where you made some posts but they were all excusing prior play or promising future play. When it came to Tuesday evening + (2nd half of day 2) the 'goodwill' (terrible word, but you get the gist) had gone and I couldn't excuse myself not lynching you at that point.
Obviously it wasn't great play from me because you were town, but also factor in that i'm not stupid and i'm pretty decent and that's the position that *I* felt you had put me in
Yeah I mean there's not really much to say other than that I don't see a that much of a scum motive for waiting 24 hours to dump out a specific group of reads. Obviously giving town less time to evaluate your reads is good for scum if you can pull it off, but if you're 100% set to be lynched it almost doesn't matter when you say what you say unless you're really trying to not get lynched. The 24 hour gap between the scumslip argument with DP and me beginning my stuff should have been filled with me stating I was busy for those 24 hours. That being said, I get the feeling that someone who's 100% on the chopping block stating they're busy for the first half of the day doesn't really earn them much credit, but if it's true, it's better to say it than to not say it, or at least it's better to update the thread on when activity can be expected.
On June 04 2013 06:10 Blazinghand wrote: Yeah I mean there's not really much to say other than that I don't see a that much of a scum motive for waiting 24 hours to dump out a specific group of reads. Obviously giving town less time to evaluate your reads is good for scum if you can pull it off, but if you're 100% set to be lynched it almost doesn't matter when you say what you say unless you're really trying to not get lynched. The 24 hour gap between the scumslip argument with DP and me beginning my stuff should have been filled with me stating I was busy for those 24 hours. That being said, I get the feeling that someone who's 100% on the chopping block stating they're busy for the first half of the day doesn't really earn them much credit, but if it's true, it's better to say it than to not say it, or at least it's better to update the thread on when activity can be expected.
I made a post at some point which had about 6 or so of your quotes all saying you were scumhunting imminently, where nothing had come
the scum motive is that you're putting off having to contribute, and you're sensing who the thread wants to lynch before making your play
i'd have been far less inclined to lynch you if you hadn't kept saying that the cases were coming soon and then they didn't come soon.
I know you're not one to bring real life into games, but i'd much rather you said "i can't do x until this time"... which WILL look dodgy, but it will look a lot less dodgy than how what you did came across
On June 04 2013 06:10 Blazinghand wrote: Yeah I mean there's not really much to say other than that I don't see a that much of a scum motive for waiting 24 hours to dump out a specific group of reads. Obviously giving town less time to evaluate your reads is good for scum if you can pull it off, but if you're 100% set to be lynched it almost doesn't matter when you say what you say unless you're really trying to not get lynched. The 24 hour gap between the scumslip argument with DP and me beginning my stuff should have been filled with me stating I was busy for those 24 hours. That being said, I get the feeling that someone who's 100% on the chopping block stating they're busy for the first half of the day doesn't really earn them much credit, but if it's true, it's better to say it than to not say it, or at least it's better to update the thread on when activity can be expected.
I made a post at some point which had about 6 or so of your quotes all saying you were scumhunting imminently, where nothing had come
the scum motive is that you're putting off having to contribute, and you're sensing who the thread wants to lynch before making your play
i'd have been far less inclined to lynch you if you hadn't kept saying that the cases were coming soon and then they didn't come soon.
I know you're not one to bring real life into games, but i'd much rather you said "i can't do x until this time"... which WILL look dodgy, but it will look a lot less dodgy than how what you did came across
Ah, I see how that could be a scum motive. The thread was relatively dead during D2 though (except for everyone saying they wanted to lynch me), so I'm not sure that scum me would have been waiting to gauge thread sentiment, but I see how in other situations that could easily be the case.
I think I could reasonably say when I'm available without mentioning real life, but I'll probably just say I'm eating dinner for whatever period of time. I just don't think it's ever a reasonable choice to mention real life except if you're talking to a host and asking to replace out or something. I mean, there's no harm in doing it but it's always meaningless-- there's nothing stopping scumBH from saying "oh yeah I'm busy for 24 hours" when in reality he's gauging the thread or whatever. Doing so should give no towncred except a little bit for at least keeping the thread in the loop.
This is basically how I feel about talking about IRL
EPT
