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As I've said, the survivor was probably not only too strong, I also strongly advise against doing rather big changes to roles in a closed setup, while still labeling it as "normal".
Nobody talked about the flavor because it was quite clear that fakeclaims were going to be given out like candy (see the OP saying "oh by all means, claim whatever flavor you like!") and even if not it's still a terrible way to play the game. ADDITIONALLY, I think half the players (me included) didn't even know jack shit about the flavor in the first place.
I don't see why you're sad nobody was a complete retard and tried to break a setup by flavor that you went out of your way to make unbreakable and didn't even hide that fact. If anything, that's like the one thing town did right.
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I don't think my role was too powerful. It was very anti scum with the night action oriented double shot power but that never came into play either. I think, depending on the player that survivor as a role is either far too easy or too difficult.
Give the role to Kush for example and he will have a very good chance at winning without doing much at all.
Give the role to Marv and I think he would find it much more difficult.
That being said I do not agree that the role should have no KP mitigation ESPECIALLY in a game with scum KP and a 2 shot vig in a mini.
The chances of a 'good player' being shot is very likely in a setup like this. You only need to look at how badly WoS wanted to off me and marv in the scum QT.
I think some form of Night protection is needed with one-shot bullet proof being much stronger than the 2-shot commuter ability IMO.
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On May 31 2013 11:47 DarthPunk wrote:
I don't think my role was too powerful. It was very anti scum with the night action oriented double shot power but that never came into play either. I think, depending on the player that survivor as a role is either far too easy or too difficult.
Give the role to Kush for example and he will have a very good chance at winning without doing much at all.
Give the role to Marv and I think he would find it much more difficult.
That being said I do not agree that the role should have no KP mitigation ESPECIALLY in a game with scum KP and a 2 shot vig in a mini.
The chances of a 'good player' being shot is very likely in a setup like this. You only need to look at how badly WoS wanted to off me and marv in the scum QT.
I think some form of Night protection is needed with one-shot bullet proof being much stronger than the 2-shot commuter ability IMO.
To be fair Dandel did have to slap me around a bunch to get me to calm down. 1st time scum - I don't know that me offing you would have been the right call; in this case it obviously wasn't.
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On May 31 2013 11:49 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2013 11:47 DarthPunk wrote:
I don't think my role was too powerful. It was very anti scum with the night action oriented double shot power but that never came into play either. I think, depending on the player that survivor as a role is either far too easy or too difficult.
Give the role to Kush for example and he will have a very good chance at winning without doing much at all.
Give the role to Marv and I think he would find it much more difficult.
That being said I do not agree that the role should have no KP mitigation ESPECIALLY in a game with scum KP and a 2 shot vig in a mini.
The chances of a 'good player' being shot is very likely in a setup like this. You only need to look at how badly WoS wanted to off me and marv in the scum QT.
I think some form of Night protection is needed with one-shot bullet proof being much stronger than the 2-shot commuter ability IMO.
To be fair Dandel did have to slap me around a bunch to get me to calm down. 1st time scum - I don't know that me offing you would have been the right call; in this case it obviously wasn't.
Well I would have been shot night two if Iamp hadn't claimed to early and if dandel hadn't been the only one around and if it happened to be my NK out of the two that he switched to perfection.
But seriously. Never shoot me when you are scum. Pretty please?
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
On May 31 2013 09:57 Blazinghand wrote:
Not sure if that was Marv's writing originally, I think he's quoting a guide from mafiascum's wiki or maybe a TL Guide. I've definitely heard that passage before.
It's from the WIFOM section from the mafiascum wiki. It's actually one of their better pages, because one of the things it stresses is that things people all too readily dismiss stuff as WIFOM that isn't really WIFOM.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
It's a good passage. I read all of mafiascum wiki before my first newbie game, and it's part of the reason I'm such a good player today.
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
On May 31 2013 04:29 Blazinghand wrote:
Survivor is an okay role, but I don't think it needs extra powers to be balanced or interesting. Survivor is what we economists call a pro-cyclical role, where if the economy is in recession it contributes to recession, whereas if the economy is in boom it contributes to the boom. Survivor will help whoever is winning, making the game more swingy. Contrast SK, who will help whoever is losing.
I like this a lot too. Good thought about that role.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
I think Survivor is good for games where it seems harder for town/scum to get an edge (ie, scum KP fixed at a certain number, town and scum lack really good power roles like vigilante) and SK is better for games where one team can snowball (scum KP drops to 1 at some point, scum and town both have vigilantes)
E: of course you could just make the game double hilarious and have it be swingy AND have like 9 survivors or something horrible like that
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
Man I'd just like to reiterate that this lynch is me was terrible. Like, having some time to think about it, I see how I could have avoided getting lynched here (since the two times I've ever been in more than one game at a time are also the two times I've ever been mislynched) but I'm basically blaming this one on Marv as the other good town player in the game to recognize that everything I said was true.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
I'm pretty serious. Reading my filter as I go into the lynch D2 it's like reasonably obvious I'm town. I'm flattered that people think "oh, Blazinghand is a supreme tier scum player and could pull this off as scum" but that's not a reason to lynch someone. Especially when that someone alone contributed or forced people to contribute like 50% of the analysis done in the thread in the past 72 hours, and he did it all in a 24 hour window when scum would have every motivation to say nothing.
Like, when I tunnel people as town, the one thing that gets me to back off is people manning up and contributing a ton. The thread was dead D2 of actual analysis (barring a few small cases), if you don't count what I was doing. If someone read the thread and looked at the contributions of the players during D2 and saw I was being lynched they'd be like "wat"
And in part this is why I am like "wat" because I still don't understand what people really found scummy about my reaction during N2. I immediately realized I scumslipped, because I'm a smart guy and I notice these things after I post when I read my post for the first time. I did my best to explain my reasoning in a logical way, and yes, I didn't analyze a whole lot since I was busy defending myself from this horrible push, but it's what I had to do. Where in my mindset where I specifically shoot down all of DP's arguments is there a scum mindset? I really don't understand what people found scummy about my play besides this:
BH was busy D1 because he was in 2 other games and arguing in the post-game of another game he was hosting
BH "scumslipped" N1 and spent a good deal of time defending himself vigourously and completely openly, sharing every thought that entered his mind with the thread.
E: Like people were like "wow dude you can't say you 'stepped in it' or act like you made a mistake, that's a scum mindset" but it's really not-- it *is* a mistake to scumslip as town, since I should have known the number of scum wasn't outlined in the OP. The fact that I shared my wry jokes and observations with the thread was because I'm totally open as a townie, and hide nothing-- but people considered these things scumtells and I'd like to know why.
And if you think I'm wrong here, then this is a learning opportunity for me-- please advise me.
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What would it have looked like if everything was the same up to and including the slip...but instead you actually were scum? How would you have handled the situation? This is just for my own curiosity.
Also blaming it on Marv is pretty bullshit. You really should be owning up to the fact the driving force behind your mislynch was you not giving a shit on day 1, because more likely than not, the slip doesn't even happen if you actually had time for the game at that point.
More, you had plenty of time to prove your innocence, but waited to do so. That's also on you. The sooner you start playing baller town, the sooner town as a whole can reconsider your lynch. You masoned Marv and really didn't do anything with it. That was a pretty important opportunity to prove your innocence, and you wasted it.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
I legitimately was busy for the first day. You can say I didn't give a shit on day 1, but I gave a shit, I was just limited by time and circumstance. I didn't play well, but given what was going on I did the best I could. That being said, my day 1 play has never been replicated as scum, and has happened before as town (twice actually) that I pointed out. That being said, I have a very simple remedy, one that I implemented the only other time I got mislynched and rescinded, foolishly, for this game: I just will play one game at a time from now on. Easy enough.
And look, I've addressed that Night 1 I had a lot of shit on my plate. I assumed that by masoning with Marv I'd prove my towniness, just from having done it. Then the whole thing with DP popped up and I had to deal with it. Like, you think "oh blazinghand didn't use his mason power well" but I masoned someone everyone was sure was town, I didn't think people would be like "herp derp there's a scum mason in a normal mini" or even worse, speculate that somehow Marv was scum with me. (edit: also I assumed I was the only mason, which seemed like a reasonable assumption)
I'm gonna say this though: I put forth an effort to scumhunt while I was still alive that I'm not sure I could replicate as scum. I'm not sure I've ever tried as hard as I did during my last 36 hours alive during this game at any game of mafia. Driving me wasn't just an urge to survive, but something more-- a feeling that I was right. I haven't ever experienced what it's like to be mislynched as town inevitably before this, and let me tell you: it's demoralizing. But I dug deep within me and found something that I'm not sure I'll ever be able to find except in situations like this. I hadn't really been reading the thread, everyone (and I mean everyone) thought I was scum, and really it seemed hopeless. To come back from that and nail 2 scum (though misnailing one town) and make 2 solid townreads (though DP definitely had me going) I think is probably one of my greatest accomplishments, ever, in mafia.
I consider what I did in the second part of D2 to have been an isshokenmei (link), an extraordinary effort I probably won't ever be able to achieve again easily, and certainly not artificially. If I was scum, I'd absolutely try, but doing something like that takes a great deal of motivation. So what would it look like if I was scum? Probably the same, but with less effort, with worse (and more wrong) cases. I wouldn't be able to replicate that effort as scum.
E: And if it seems like I'm butthurt, yeah, I'm butthurt. I legitimately think some of my best play ever happened during D2, and I got lynched. I think I was pretty clearly town, and I think people are just bad at integrating new information into their reads. Do I blame marv a bit for lynching me? yes, of course. Guys like Yamato etc thought I was town and either didn't unvote me or failed to convince others. Marv though, he had his doubts, though he didn't voice them, and he didn't contribute for most of D2-- people even became suspicious of him later for this. The thing about Marv though is, he's a leader. I expect him to lead. And when he falls asleep at the wheel, there was nobody else to step up and lead town. This is why I don't blame guys like Yamato or spicydino-- they are not leaders, they did not have the responsibility of pushing their townreads on me to save me.
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I'm not sure why you blame marv when it was really DP that got the whole thing going to begin with.
I mean yeah Marv didn't exactly play his best game here but if every game was up to one person to carry a town there would probably be many more town losses than there are.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
The thing is, I can't really blame DP since he wasn't town. If DP was a townie, I 100% promise you'd be lording this over him! I'd be like "time to change your signature huehuehue" and so on. After the game though DP mentioned that yeah, he realized I was townie partway through D2 but as a survivor he'd be fine securing a 2nd mislynch, especially since I had explicitly mentioned him as a townread. Like, DP played quite well and I have no criticism of his play. If he thought I was scum and was playing for a town win, then yeah that was bad, but he was like "oh I guess I'll play for a scum win instead" partway through D2, and it was the right move. He even had me fooled! I'm not sure whether he or Vayne played the best game this game, but I might even say DP might have had the best individual performance.
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What are you trying to accomplish here BH? You will be satisfied if we all agree that your mislynch was Marv's fault?
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Valid point I suppose. I agree DP played extremely well as did Vayne. I'm not sure how your 'best game' criteria is only based on how well they fooled YOU however.
I also still don't think it's fair to solely blame marv; town lost because town didn't step up, it's as simple as that. You think it's fair for me to blame the entire rest of town when I had you pegged as mafia D1 in Carnival Cruise but nobody listened to me? The onus is on me to find a way to make the town listen as well as on them for not listening.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On June 04 2013 05:20 s0Lstice wrote:
What are you trying to accomplish here BH? You will be satisfied if we all agree that your mislynch was Marv's fault?
I would find that unsatisfactory. I mean, I'd probably get some satisfaction but I don't think that's what I want here. I want to know what I could have done 24 hours out from the lynch to stop it form happening. If that answer is "nothing", then so be it-- but I also feel a need to demonstrate that given my time constraints, I did the best I could. People seem to think I didn't care about this game, but I actually think I'm one of the few people who really did care. I feel sad that I got lynched.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On June 04 2013 05:21 WaveofShadow wrote:
Valid point I suppose. I agree DP played extremely well as did Vayne. I'm not sure how your 'best game' criteria is only based on how well they fooled YOU however.
I also still don't think it's fair to solely blame marv; town lost because town didn't step up, it's as simple as that. You think it's fair for me to blame the entire rest of town when I had you pegged as mafia D1 in Carnival Cruise but nobody listened to me? The onus is on me to find a way to make the town listen as well as on them for not listening.
This is a reasonable point. When I got rolling in the thread, what should I have done? I had two times during this game when I had a lot of time to do stuff. One of those times was during N1, and I spent a lot of my time thoroughly debunking DP's scumslip case on me. I feel in retrospect I should have ignored him and just hunted scum, but that's not something that I'm super good at doing. I have a need to argue with people who state things that are wrong (like here). The other time I had time was like the last 30 hours of D2, and I think I played extremely well, the best I have ever played, during that time.
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EPT
