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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On April 12 2013 00:07 DarthPunk wrote:
To be fair. Ace/marv/palmar all being town wasn't even a major reason that town won this game. Vets often play badly just like everyone else. So if we are talking about balancing 'vets' I really don't see the point.
Just as a general point, it's more the idea that ace/marv/palmar can organise/direct a mafia team well, and can exert significant thread influence for the benefit of mafia.
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On April 11 2013 23:32 marvellosity wrote:
See, I'm all about equal opportunities <3
I'm an equal opportunity ass-kicker.
Edit: Shit, I wasted my 3k post in this thread somewhere.
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On April 12 2013 00:10 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 00:07 DarthPunk wrote:
To be fair. Ace/marv/palmar all being town wasn't even a major reason that town won this game. Vets often play badly just like everyone else. So if we are talking about balancing 'vets' I really don't see the point.
Just as a general point, it's more the idea that ace/marv/palmar can organise/direct a mafia team well, and can exert significant thread influence for the benefit of mafia.
So could a whole bunch of non vets in this game. I still don't see the point.
You know something I have noticed though is that 'town leaders' from newbie games really quiet down in the transition to normals, I think a lot of that has to do with all the vet nonsense and thus they are less likely to contribute or take charge as they have in newbies. I quite like the idea of different players taking charge, or at least having the chance to take charge of a scum team.
Having 'good scum players' in every scum team would become stagnant and deprives newer players that opportunity to grow and shine. Even if they don't succeed the opportunity is important.
Case in point. Look at oats in this game fucking take charge in the scum QT and improve DRASTICALLY from his last scum game. He rose to the occasion and even if he lost that still has a heap of value.
Furthermore, Who doesn't love a good comeback? or the tale of an underdog overcoming the odds and succeeding? I think there are a lot of intangibles to consider that are more important than some easy wins every now and then.
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On April 12 2013 00:10 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 23:55 wherebugsgo wrote:
The only players you can consider for balancing purposes are vets, because they are the only ones with enough games for it to matter.
The problem is that there are only a handful of them every game, so if you know a host balances teams, then simply by lynching into the vets your chances of hitting scum increase drastically.
marv's argument about how the teams could have been balanced by a host even by letting Ace/marv/Palmar be on town is laughable, given that there's almost no way to reliably differentiate the scum play of the remaining 9 players in this game (no offense to you all). Not only that, but the town arguably might benefit anyway from one of the (now scum) players being moved to town instead. Yeah I don't buy that argument. I am not in favor of 'balanced' set ups but I think that you can have a basic idea of who is more likely to play better as scum. Town not so much. But some players just don't try as hard as scum I think, and it is really obvious.
so you're saying for sure at least one player outside of those 3 is definitely better than someone who was actually on the scumteam, and thus you could have balanced the team better?
I doubt that, particularly as it would also result in one of those players being shifted over to town (where they almost CERTAINLY would have contributed more)
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On April 12 2013 00:20 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 00:10 DarthPunk wrote:On April 11 2013 23:55 wherebugsgo wrote:
The only players you can consider for balancing purposes are vets, because they are the only ones with enough games for it to matter.
The problem is that there are only a handful of them every game, so if you know a host balances teams, then simply by lynching into the vets your chances of hitting scum increase drastically.
marv's argument about how the teams could have been balanced by a host even by letting Ace/marv/Palmar be on town is laughable, given that there's almost no way to reliably differentiate the scum play of the remaining 9 players in this game (no offense to you all). Not only that, but the town arguably might benefit anyway from one of the (now scum) players being moved to town instead. Yeah I don't buy that argument. I am not in favor of 'balanced' set ups but I think that you can have a basic idea of who is more likely to play better as scum. Town not so much. But some players just don't try as hard as scum I think, and it is really obvious. so you're saying for sure at least one player outside of those 3 is definitely better than someone who was actually on the scumteam, and thus you could have balanced the team better? I doubt that, particularly as it would also result in one of those players being shifted over to town (where they almost CERTAINLY would have contributed more)
Yep. Perfection and Myself.
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United States22154 Posts
Well, this is a good time to advertise my mini.
It actually directly addresses some of the issues talked about here!
Keep an eye out
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Furthermore If they would have contributed far more as town you also lose our contributions as town.
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On April 12 2013 00:22 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 00:20 wherebugsgo wrote:On April 12 2013 00:10 DarthPunk wrote:On April 11 2013 23:55 wherebugsgo wrote:
The only players you can consider for balancing purposes are vets, because they are the only ones with enough games for it to matter.
The problem is that there are only a handful of them every game, so if you know a host balances teams, then simply by lynching into the vets your chances of hitting scum increase drastically.
marv's argument about how the teams could have been balanced by a host even by letting Ace/marv/Palmar be on town is laughable, given that there's almost no way to reliably differentiate the scum play of the remaining 9 players in this game (no offense to you all). Not only that, but the town arguably might benefit anyway from one of the (now scum) players being moved to town instead. Yeah I don't buy that argument. I am not in favor of 'balanced' set ups but I think that you can have a basic idea of who is more likely to play better as scum. Town not so much. But some players just don't try as hard as scum I think, and it is really obvious. so you're saying for sure at least one player outside of those 3 is definitely better than someone who was actually on the scumteam, and thus you could have balanced the team better? I doubt that, particularly as it would also result in one of those players being shifted over to town (where they almost CERTAINLY would have contributed more) Yep. Perfection and Myself.
and Sciberbia, even though it totally wasn't balance reasons I caught him on in YAN
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On April 12 2013 00:18 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 00:10 marvellosity wrote:On April 12 2013 00:07 DarthPunk wrote:
To be fair. Ace/marv/palmar all being town wasn't even a major reason that town won this game. Vets often play badly just like everyone else. So if we are talking about balancing 'vets' I really don't see the point.
Just as a general point, it's more the idea that ace/marv/palmar can organise/direct a mafia team well, and can exert significant thread influence for the benefit of mafia. So could a whole bunch of non vets in this game. I still don't see the point.
You're missing the point, because the only point I'm making there is that these players have *proven* their ability to regularly do what I mentioned. Whereas players who aren't them haven't. *shrug*
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On April 12 2013 00:27 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 00:18 DarthPunk wrote:On April 12 2013 00:10 marvellosity wrote:On April 12 2013 00:07 DarthPunk wrote:
To be fair. Ace/marv/palmar all being town wasn't even a major reason that town won this game. Vets often play badly just like everyone else. So if we are talking about balancing 'vets' I really don't see the point.
Just as a general point, it's more the idea that ace/marv/palmar can organise/direct a mafia team well, and can exert significant thread influence for the benefit of mafia. So could a whole bunch of non vets in this game. I still don't see the point. You're missing the point, because the only point I'm making there is that these players have *proven* their ability to regularly do what I mentioned. Whereas players who aren't them haven't. *shrug*
So isn't the argument null in the first place because you can't know what other townies (this game) could/would have done as mafia? Only conclusion i can reach that this particular mafia team in this game couldn't push their agenda succesfully.
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On April 12 2013 00:26 Promethelax wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 00:22 DarthPunk wrote:On April 12 2013 00:20 wherebugsgo wrote:On April 12 2013 00:10 DarthPunk wrote:On April 11 2013 23:55 wherebugsgo wrote:
The only players you can consider for balancing purposes are vets, because they are the only ones with enough games for it to matter.
The problem is that there are only a handful of them every game, so if you know a host balances teams, then simply by lynching into the vets your chances of hitting scum increase drastically.
marv's argument about how the teams could have been balanced by a host even by letting Ace/marv/Palmar be on town is laughable, given that there's almost no way to reliably differentiate the scum play of the remaining 9 players in this game (no offense to you all). Not only that, but the town arguably might benefit anyway from one of the (now scum) players being moved to town instead. Yeah I don't buy that argument. I am not in favor of 'balanced' set ups but I think that you can have a basic idea of who is more likely to play better as scum. Town not so much. But some players just don't try as hard as scum I think, and it is really obvious. so you're saying for sure at least one player outside of those 3 is definitely better than someone who was actually on the scumteam, and thus you could have balanced the team better? I doubt that, particularly as it would also result in one of those players being shifted over to town (where they almost CERTAINLY would have contributed more) Yep. Perfection and Myself. and Sciberbia, even though it totally wasn't balance reasons I caught him on in YAN
Wouldn't know. Never seen him play scum.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On April 12 2013 00:30 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 00:27 marvellosity wrote:On April 12 2013 00:18 DarthPunk wrote:On April 12 2013 00:10 marvellosity wrote:On April 12 2013 00:07 DarthPunk wrote:
To be fair. Ace/marv/palmar all being town wasn't even a major reason that town won this game. Vets often play badly just like everyone else. So if we are talking about balancing 'vets' I really don't see the point.
Just as a general point, it's more the idea that ace/marv/palmar can organise/direct a mafia team well, and can exert significant thread influence for the benefit of mafia. So could a whole bunch of non vets in this game. I still don't see the point. You're missing the point, because the only point I'm making there is that these players have *proven* their ability to regularly do what I mentioned. Whereas players who aren't them haven't. *shrug* So isn't the argument null in the first place because you can't know what other townies (this game) could/would have done as mafia? Only conclusion i can reach that this particular mafia team in this game couldn't push their agenda succesfully.
You can make a decent stab at it. If I were told before the game as an observer who the mafia team were, I'd have fairly confidently told you they wouldn't be very successful at pushing their agenda over the course of the game...
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On April 12 2013 00:32 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 00:30 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 12 2013 00:27 marvellosity wrote:On April 12 2013 00:18 DarthPunk wrote:On April 12 2013 00:10 marvellosity wrote:On April 12 2013 00:07 DarthPunk wrote:
To be fair. Ace/marv/palmar all being town wasn't even a major reason that town won this game. Vets often play badly just like everyone else. So if we are talking about balancing 'vets' I really don't see the point.
Just as a general point, it's more the idea that ace/marv/palmar can organise/direct a mafia team well, and can exert significant thread influence for the benefit of mafia. So could a whole bunch of non vets in this game. I still don't see the point. You're missing the point, because the only point I'm making there is that these players have *proven* their ability to regularly do what I mentioned. Whereas players who aren't them haven't. *shrug* So isn't the argument null in the first place because you can't know what other townies (this game) could/would have done as mafia? Only conclusion i can reach that this particular mafia team in this game couldn't push their agenda succesfully. You can make a decent stab at it. If I were told before the game as an observer who the mafia team were, I'd have fairly confidently told you they wouldn't be very successful at pushing their agenda over the course of the game...
You can't deny that Oats rose to the occasion though and played a really solid scum game. I mean. You were dancing to his tune. 
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I agree with Axle.
Not sure on what.
But I agree with it.
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I understand and i agree that's a decent assumption to make for you. Just remember it's all based on meat and what do you think of other players (like your Oats read this game, and remember what happened in Redwith your read on me when you saw the results of Newbie Mafia XXXIX).
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On April 12 2013 00:34 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 00:32 marvellosity wrote:On April 12 2013 00:30 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 12 2013 00:27 marvellosity wrote:On April 12 2013 00:18 DarthPunk wrote:On April 12 2013 00:10 marvellosity wrote:On April 12 2013 00:07 DarthPunk wrote:
To be fair. Ace/marv/palmar all being town wasn't even a major reason that town won this game. Vets often play badly just like everyone else. So if we are talking about balancing 'vets' I really don't see the point.
Just as a general point, it's more the idea that ace/marv/palmar can organise/direct a mafia team well, and can exert significant thread influence for the benefit of mafia. So could a whole bunch of non vets in this game. I still don't see the point. You're missing the point, because the only point I'm making there is that these players have *proven* their ability to regularly do what I mentioned. Whereas players who aren't them haven't. *shrug* So isn't the argument null in the first place because you can't know what other townies (this game) could/would have done as mafia? Only conclusion i can reach that this particular mafia team in this game couldn't push their agenda succesfully. You can make a decent stab at it. If I were told before the game as an observer who the mafia team were, I'd have fairly confidently told you they wouldn't be very successful at pushing their agenda over the course of the game... You can't deny that Oats rose to the occasion though and played a really solid scum game. I mean. You were dancing to his tune.
Me reading him as town in the first cycle isn't dancing to his tune. He never convinced me of anything I wouldn't have believed otherwise in relation to everyone else, which is what that is.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On April 12 2013 00:36 raynpelikoneet wrote:
I understand and i agree that's a decent assumption to make for you. Just remember it's all based on meat and what do you think of other players (like your Oats read this game, and remember what happened in Redwith your read on me when you saw the results of Newbie Mafia XXXIX).
yes, but i was also looking for a non-existent 4th mafia 
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On April 12 2013 00:36 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 00:34 DarthPunk wrote:On April 12 2013 00:32 marvellosity wrote:On April 12 2013 00:30 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 12 2013 00:27 marvellosity wrote:On April 12 2013 00:18 DarthPunk wrote:On April 12 2013 00:10 marvellosity wrote:On April 12 2013 00:07 DarthPunk wrote:
To be fair. Ace/marv/palmar all being town wasn't even a major reason that town won this game. Vets often play badly just like everyone else. So if we are talking about balancing 'vets' I really don't see the point.
Just as a general point, it's more the idea that ace/marv/palmar can organise/direct a mafia team well, and can exert significant thread influence for the benefit of mafia. So could a whole bunch of non vets in this game. I still don't see the point. You're missing the point, because the only point I'm making there is that these players have *proven* their ability to regularly do what I mentioned. Whereas players who aren't them haven't. *shrug* So isn't the argument null in the first place because you can't know what other townies (this game) could/would have done as mafia? Only conclusion i can reach that this particular mafia team in this game couldn't push their agenda succesfully. You can make a decent stab at it. If I were told before the game as an observer who the mafia team were, I'd have fairly confidently told you they wouldn't be very successful at pushing their agenda over the course of the game... You can't deny that Oats rose to the occasion though and played a really solid scum game. I mean. You were dancing to his tune. Me reading him as town in the first cycle isn't dancing to his tune. He never convinced me of anything I wouldn't have believed otherwise in relation to everyone else, which is what that is.
If you hard defend scum and then defend another scum in order to form a wagon on town with the first scum then he is doing a pretty good job IMO.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On April 12 2013 00:38 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 00:36 marvellosity wrote:On April 12 2013 00:34 DarthPunk wrote:On April 12 2013 00:32 marvellosity wrote:On April 12 2013 00:30 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 12 2013 00:27 marvellosity wrote:On April 12 2013 00:18 DarthPunk wrote:On April 12 2013 00:10 marvellosity wrote:On April 12 2013 00:07 DarthPunk wrote:
To be fair. Ace/marv/palmar all being town wasn't even a major reason that town won this game. Vets often play badly just like everyone else. So if we are talking about balancing 'vets' I really don't see the point.
Just as a general point, it's more the idea that ace/marv/palmar can organise/direct a mafia team well, and can exert significant thread influence for the benefit of mafia. So could a whole bunch of non vets in this game. I still don't see the point. You're missing the point, because the only point I'm making there is that these players have *proven* their ability to regularly do what I mentioned. Whereas players who aren't them haven't. *shrug* So isn't the argument null in the first place because you can't know what other townies (this game) could/would have done as mafia? Only conclusion i can reach that this particular mafia team in this game couldn't push their agenda succesfully. You can make a decent stab at it. If I were told before the game as an observer who the mafia team were, I'd have fairly confidently told you they wouldn't be very successful at pushing their agenda over the course of the game... You can't deny that Oats rose to the occasion though and played a really solid scum game. I mean. You were dancing to his tune. Me reading him as town in the first cycle isn't dancing to his tune. He never convinced me of anything I wouldn't have believed otherwise in relation to everyone else, which is what that is. If you hard defend scum and then defend another scum in order to form a wagon on town with the first scum then he is doing a pretty good job IMO.
? what oats did was irrelevant to me pushing Ace. what are you on about?
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On April 12 2013 00:39 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 00:38 DarthPunk wrote:On April 12 2013 00:36 marvellosity wrote:On April 12 2013 00:34 DarthPunk wrote:On April 12 2013 00:32 marvellosity wrote:On April 12 2013 00:30 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 12 2013 00:27 marvellosity wrote:On April 12 2013 00:18 DarthPunk wrote:On April 12 2013 00:10 marvellosity wrote:On April 12 2013 00:07 DarthPunk wrote:
To be fair. Ace/marv/palmar all being town wasn't even a major reason that town won this game. Vets often play badly just like everyone else. So if we are talking about balancing 'vets' I really don't see the point.
Just as a general point, it's more the idea that ace/marv/palmar can organise/direct a mafia team well, and can exert significant thread influence for the benefit of mafia. So could a whole bunch of non vets in this game. I still don't see the point. You're missing the point, because the only point I'm making there is that these players have *proven* their ability to regularly do what I mentioned. Whereas players who aren't them haven't. *shrug* So isn't the argument null in the first place because you can't know what other townies (this game) could/would have done as mafia? Only conclusion i can reach that this particular mafia team in this game couldn't push their agenda succesfully. You can make a decent stab at it. If I were told before the game as an observer who the mafia team were, I'd have fairly confidently told you they wouldn't be very successful at pushing their agenda over the course of the game... You can't deny that Oats rose to the occasion though and played a really solid scum game. I mean. You were dancing to his tune. Me reading him as town in the first cycle isn't dancing to his tune. He never convinced me of anything I wouldn't have believed otherwise in relation to everyone else, which is what that is. If you hard defend scum and then defend another scum in order to form a wagon on town with the first scum then he is doing a pretty good job IMO. ? what oats did was irrelevant to me pushing Ace. what are you on about?
I'm just teasing.
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EPT
