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On April 08 2013 07:11 Restraining Order wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 07:01 austinmcc wrote:
Gonzaw. I would like you to actually read Shelvocke closer. Read him critically. Do not assume that he was pressured at all early. Do not assume that he was ever discussed (Or, if you do, go find me the posts where he was pressured/discussed earlier).
When I asked you before, you claimed to be null. There were things that originally made you suspicious, according to you, and "some stuff others say makes sense about him," (which btw, was meapak/me saying he was scum). Based on that, you shouldn't just be null. He is a legitimate topic of discussion, he does not have a filter, and he is likely a smurf (I generally assume all new people from odd countries = smurves).
That was NOT much of a response from you, tbh. And he's not getting any of the traction you seem to value. Drop your assumptions about how the thread has interacted with him or find those interactions, and then critically read his filter, his vote, and then give me more of your thoughts that "he's null except here are two things that were kind of scummy but apparently don't make me scum on him." I still don't really understand how people can have a strong read on Shelvocke in either way. Like, everything he's said, and everything people said about him, just looks completely null to me. Is that the crux of the suspicion on him? Because I can see the concern if you look at it from that angle, but it's not a strong indicator in itself either, which is kind of ironic. Pop open his filter. Look at the times that Shelvocke has interacted with thread.
He talks a little bit about plans, saying to pick what you want, saying that there are lots of roles and stuff that are good, so plans are bad. The plan to put townreads at the top of the pick order is "awful." Doesn't participate at all in the pregame except to just minorly crap on plans. Contrast with, say, Palmar. Palmar very clearly doesn't care about the pre-D1 stuff, whether he's town or scum. Shelvocke seems to care enough to respond and shoot down the occasional post, but he provides nothing that moves FORWARD beyond a very early post saying everyone should do what they want.
He wants to talk to gonzaw. About what? The hidden gut scumread. Shelvocke suggests strongandbig, indicating that he is hoping gonzaw's gut read is snb, although that isn't definite. At this point, all we know is Shelvocke is interested in Gonzaw's read, and curious about snb for some unknown reason.
Shelvocke finds VE mafia. Is familiar with VE's past play (indicates Shelvocke is a smurf and NOT a new player). Read his post calling VE mafia, do you agree with Shelvocke's reasoning? I still think it's not, because players who sometimes play dumb don't recommend that everyone else play dumb. VE isn't scummy for failing to suggest that people play poorly.
Shelvocke then returns, ONE DAY later. 24 hours. He votes VE because VE isn't going to play and "hasn't done anything to suggest that he is town." In other words, Shelvocke has been gone a day. He has returned to thread. He is indicating that he has READ the thread, because he says VE isn't playing/hasn't done anything. But he fails to give any substantive comment on anything VE has said in the last 24 hours, or anything that anyone else has said about VE in the last 24 hours.
Instead, he votes snb, noting that snb is "very likely to be mafia." He provides no posts to really show why he thinks snb is mafia, but states some things that can be legitimate concerns - pregame activity into lull during game being sometimes scummy. But he doesn't vote snb. He doesn't seek comment on snb. It's a throwaway read, not fully spelled out with reference to posts or anything specific, and it's basically MORE work than he has done towards VE. To repeat, he votes VE after being gone for 24 hours, but provides no real commentary on VE, and in the same post he provides semi-real commentary on snb, with no vote or anything. Look at his post. Does it make sense to vote VE over snb there if he had to throw a vote?
He drops some minor comments. Familiar with PYP Insane, again suggesting a smurf.
He asks for mafia games of rayn's. Engages mocsta and keirathi concerning rayn. It's a few posts, and then he's gone agian.
That's his filter. It's not empty. It's full a couple things:
He feels free to post - little bits, asking Gonzaw about his secret read, asking for old rayn games, etc. He's READING the thread, because he constantly pops in with bits and pieces.
However, he hasn't done much as far as most of the action in the game is concerned. He shot down a few posts about plans. He has a scumread on VE (for reasons I don't like), but doesn't seem to comment on VE much except in general terms once he establishes that he's scummy on VE, and he calls snb scum while wanting to vote/lynch VE for not wanting to play/not doing anything to show he's town. One guy is scum. One guy hasn't done anything to show he's town. Who do you vote/lynch in that scenario if those are your two reads? That vote, that vote post, is OFF. It's wrong.
Reading the thread but not commenting on much of use? Scummy, especially from someone who appears to be the smurf of at least a somewhat experienced player. Reading the thread but not really bringing specific posts to his points on VE, and especially on snb? Not townie, if he wants votes, if he wants people to vote his scumread, why isn't he really pushing or substantiating his cases? Voting VE for not showing he's town while saying snb is likely mafia? Yes, it's semantics and phrasing there, but to me it shows he's not actually invested in his read/vote, and it's just for show.
Outside of his filter, there's the fact that NOBODY wants to comment on him. Lots of lots of dinky little comments about vivax, VE, palmar, etc. Almost no comments on shelvocke until people are FORCED to look at him. That CAN be an indicator that he's scum and his buddies don't want to comment on him, want to see the case blow over. They don't want to call him out as scummy if he's not gonna get pushed. They don't want to associate with him and call him town necessarily. The lack of commentary doesn't MAKE him scum, but it's something to look at and (again imo) it supports the idea that he is.
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On April 08 2013 06:56 Keirathi wrote:
@gonzaw:
I don't think there's anyone worth shooting right now. Not with 28 hours still left in the day.
So you still think Artanis is a good lynch? Do you not agree with my counterpoints?
You didn't provide counterpoints, other than "I don't find it convincing" >_>
The "fake" aggression is a gut feeling from me. I've seen several scum react in that way, differently than a townie would, and push people with that mentality before. I skimmed his British game and I don't really feel his behaviour in that regard is the same, unless you can provide examples.
So yes, I still think he's a good lynch.
On April 08 2013 07:13 Vivax wrote:
Gonzaw, for a start, ask that mofo sinani why he only shows up when you claim vig to tell you to shoot BM. Force him to make a case cause his entrance just now was ugh. It was his first post since quite a lot of time when it shouldn't have been such a post.
Ask him yourself I'm not thread police.
I try to focus on the stuff that I think matters. I don't really think sinani's retort about killing BM right now matters that much, mainly because it's not alignment indicative (taking account it was sinani that said so) and I doubt I can get a better answer out of him.
I'll analyze sinani accordingly when I find it necessary (so far I don't, unless you can convince me it is).
@austin: You are being kind of annoying right now dude. I've told you millions of times what I think of Shevlocke (why I'm indecisive on him). I'm waiting to see what he does, or what he doesn't do (the more he fails to drop by here).
I won't instantly think he's scum just by rereading his filter again. And I read his filter.
I still don't get what makes Shevlocke scummier than Artanis.....like..did I miss a scumslip or something >_>
I mean, I get how someone can think of him as scum.....but I'm missing how Artanis looks better than him, and I'm missing that "he's definitely scum" way I feel about scum :/
I will say that the more Shevlocke fails to appear and contribute, the more I feel like I could shoot him as well.
I'm torn between sno and shevlocke (although Shevlocke is more of a "yeah he could be scum, but I'm not sure if he should be a lynch (because of stuff explained before); maybe straight up killing him outside of lynch would be better"), leaning on sno.
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Question: How do you guys feel about both Shevlocke and Artanis being scum? Do you think this is possible (even considering Artanis' vote of Shevy up there)? If so, what do you think the correct course of action would be today?
Also, Sharrant get your ass in here, take your vote off Keirathi and do something.
Yamato, tell us why you parked your vote on Palmar and did shit all D1. Yes, I know you are "suspicious" of Palmar from that case you wrote, but you've ignored everything about Artanis, Shevlocke, and everything else. This is not helpful and is NOT how you played in early draft phase. Step up
I advise those that have votes on "irrelevant" people with just 1-2 votes take a step back, analyze them and Artanis/Shevlocke/etc again, and then tell us if you will keep parking your vote on that irrelevant guy, try to actually convince us to lynch him, or take a stance on Arty/Shevvy and put your vote on an actual lynch.
RO, do you still think S&B is scum? You parked your vote on him and I don't remember you commenting on him at all afterwards. You haven't commented on Artanis either.
Like half the game is just apathetic towards everything. I wish I could just shoot all of you :/
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I like gonzaw's case. Artanis's stuff on geript does looks unnecessarily agressive and fake. I'm voting for him.
##Vote Artanis[Xp]
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On April 08 2013 07:37 gonzaw wrote:
Question: How do you guys feel about both Shevlocke and Artanis being scum? Do you think this is possible (even considering Artanis' vote of Shevy up there)? If so, what do you think the correct course of action would be today?
Also, Sharrant get your ass in here, take your vote off Keirathi and do something.
Yamato, tell us why you parked your vote on Palmar and did shit all D1. Yes, I know you are "suspicious" of Palmar from that case you wrote, but you've ignored everything about Artanis, Shevlocke, and everything else. This is not helpful and is NOT how you played in early draft phase. Step up
I advise those that have votes on "irrelevant" people with just 1-2 votes take a step back, analyze them and Artanis/Shevlocke/etc again, and then tell us if you will keep parking your vote on that irrelevant guy, try to actually convince us to lynch him, or take a stance on Arty/Shevvy and put your vote on an actual lynch.
RO, do you still think S&B is scum? You parked your vote on him and I don't remember you commenting on him at all afterwards. You haven't commented on Artanis either.
Like half the game is just apathetic towards everything. I wish I could just shoot you :/
Artanis is not the type who should be shot cause he does give a fuck about his image (as opposed to RO, for example). Go for trolls and lurky stuff.
Sno_Man, RO, Sinani, Caller. Not sure about BM but at least activity doesn't seem to be much of a concern lol. Not gonna cry over those if you shoot them.
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On April 08 2013 07:31 gonzaw wrote:
@austin: You are being kind of annoying right now dude. I've told you millions of times what I think of Shevlocke (why I'm indecisive on him). I'm waiting to see what he does, or what he doesn't do (the more he fails to drop by here).
I won't instantly think he's scum just by rereading his filter again. And I read his filter.
I still don't get what makes Shevlocke scummier than Artanis.....like..did I miss a scumslip or something >_>
I mean, I get how someone can think of him as scum.....but I'm missing how Artanis looks better than him, and I'm missing that "he's definitely scum" way I feel about scum :/
I will say that the more Shevlocke fails to appear and contribute, the more I feel like I could shoot him as well.
I'm torn between sno and shevlocke (although Shevlocke is more of a "yeah he could be scum, but I'm not sure if he should be a lynch (because of stuff explained before); maybe straight up killing him outside of lynch would be better"), leaning on sno. It's intentional.
I've told you millions of times what I think of Shevlocke (why I'm indecisive on him)
On April 08 2013 03:41 gonzaw wrote:
I'm null on Shevlocke. I had found some stuff I found a little suspicious of him at first (like his first post I believe), and I guess some stuff others say makes sense about him (like how he pushed VE).
But nothing convinces me for a D1 lynch.
He hasn't been around for much either, which is not good for him, but it isn't good for me to get a better read on him either Time #1, You're null on him, except you found some stuff to be suspicious of, and other people calling him out "makes sense." So you're null, or null leaning scum. But that's NOT a strong read, and it's not much of actual thoughts tbh.
On April 08 2013 04:41 gonzaw wrote:
People HAVE been talking about Shevlocke. Meapak, you, and some others, ever since D1 started.
Time #2 that you mention him. No personal thoughts from you, just a statement that people have been talking about him. I checked the thread to see whether you were correct. I don't believe you were. I have yet to see you post showing that you are correct in thinking this. So what I see is NOT your thoughts on him. I see you thinking he's been discussed when he hasn't. I see you either REMEMBERING him as being more discussed when he wasn't, or outright lying. I'd like to stick with the first, but you (mis)remembering him being brought up this game does NOT equal a read from you on him.
On April 08 2013 04:47 gonzaw wrote:
Anyways this D1 is like a fuckfest, with some null-scummy dudes (Shevlocke, others), and people that don't even show up (snoman, Caller, shevlocke himself, and more and more)
Time #3. No discussion, he's null-scummy.
On April 08 2013 05:35 gonzaw wrote:
austin, my main point is that Shevlocke was started to being talked about once D1 started. Yes, by the time I made my Artanis case people didn't really talk about him much, but nobody really did anything else other than wagon on S&B and argue with Vivax.
I don't think my point on Artanis goes well with Shevlocke because of that. Remember the ONLY time someone called Artanis out was Mepaak and me back in the drafting picking phase basically (and maybe Mocsta when he was arguing with him about geripts case). Time #4. Your MAIN POINT is that Shelvocke was being talked about. Which I disagree with. Again, you're misremembering or lying. You have provided ZERO posts where he was getting discussed, whereas I have provided 10 pages of "nope, he's not getting discussed."
On April 08 2013 06:31 gonzaw wrote:
I still want to lynch Artanis. As more people start contributing and doing more stuff (Shevlocke included), we can consolidate better, and maybe even net us another scum via day KP Time #5.
You have mentioned him a couple times. Apart from your very first post, you haven't been telling me what you think of him beyond calling him null-scummy and maybe wanting to shoot him. But when you mention him, you are IN PART relying on some statements that I think are false memories or intentional attempts to prop him up. Despite claiming to have day KP, and seeing him as a potential day KP target, you don't seem to have any desire to actually go back and SEE whether your memory is correct or not.
At the very least, I need you to level with me, because I'm also trying to read you off of this. Don't tell me you've told me a bunch of times what you think of him, because you really haven't. Don't tell me that he was discussed a bunch, because he wasn't. DO actually take a moment and go, "Oh man, I'm relying on something in making this read and I'm being told it's wrong. Am I wrong here? Am I relying on something that isn't true? Holy balls, I'm town, and I don't like the idea that I might be remembering people talk about him when nobody did, I better go check to make sure I'm not reading someone based on stuff that didn't happen."
THAT is why I'm being annoying. Because I think Shelvocke is mafia, but even if he's not, the way that you are interacting with me about him is showing me that you just don't care. You find his vote null? You find his reading the thread but only commenting on side issues occasionally null? You find him reading thread but voting VE without really addressing 24 hours of activity by VE or about VE null? If not, then you're not really giving me your read here, not discussing this. So I'm being annoying and insistent because I don't like that, ESPECIALLY if you have day KP and are refusing to actually engage and look at someone who is apparently on your short list of people to shoot with the KP you may have.
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Austin, what is your point? Do you actually think that me having different expectations for VE and strongandbig and people not talking about me are good reasons to think that I'm mafia? Like right now I'm resisting the urge to call you a tunneling moron so much, it's not even funny.
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@rayn: good, you're back
First: ##Unvote
Now, let's talk a bit:
On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote:
1) How much time i devote to the game depends on how much time i have available. I have not ahd much time this weekend.
What are you defending here? WHY are you defensive? I didn't call you out for lurking/not contributing/whatever. Weird opening statement.
On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote:
How i play also depends on the setup. It's very different when everyone is vanilla or when everyone has roles. You are making a meta case and later on you say you are not even sure about my meta. How do you think anyone is going to believe you if you are not sure yourself?
You're right to an extent. I said that I hadn't read your scum meta. But everything about your play has been so glaringly different from the way you JUST played as town. Why? "Because the game is different" isn't an excuse for thinking and behaving completely differently.
You didn't specifically call it dumb. I was...paraphrasing, a bit. And that post you just linked came before the post where I said you were calling geript's plan dumb, which is even weirder.
Let's look at the progression, exactly:
On April 05 2013 02:13 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 01:20 geript wrote:
New plan: Instead of having a set 'draft list' in that say people drafting from 1-4 need to choose from a list of ABCD roles. People drafting from 5-8 need to draft from a list of EFGH, etc. etc. This makes it very risky for Scum to draft both outside of their own list and inside of their own list. This is absolytely the best plan and the only one i'm going to support. We just need to find out what the roles are that we put to 1-4, 5-8, etc.
On April 05 2013 02:28 raynpelikoneet wrote:
I also support Vivax' idea if i get to be #1, Geript #2, and yamato, Mocsta, Sharrant #3-#5.
On April 05 2013 02:39 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Combine Vivax' + Geript's ideas and let these guys pick [1][1], [2][1], [3][1], [4][1], [5][1] (everyone else picks [6->] [X]):
Then:
On April 05 2013 03:14 raynpelikoneet wrote:
I don't think the players who are going to pick first should be limited to X number of roles.
geript's plan was exactly that: the people in the first 4 slots (aka pod, in this case) would be limited to a certain pod of picks. You said that was unarguably the best plan for town. Then changed your mind and are saying it's a bad plan. That's what I was getting at, here.
On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote:
There is no reason to push any plans further when people reacted to any plans like they did. 3/4 of the people said "fuck all the plans", "i'm gonna do whatever they want so fu" or "it takes all the fun out of the game". What's the point of discussing any plans further when you already know it's not gonna happen anyways? At least i fucking provided a plan that had four town reads in it for people to discuss but no.. Everyone just hopped right over that part..
Ugh, I hate this kind of excuse. "No one else was doing anything, so I refuse to do anything too!"
YOU were the one saying that the top picks needed some kind of cooperation. Why didn't you try to get any? You just got your top pick, and buggered off.
On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote:
TLDR;
- Strange reads with no progression or reasoning - maybe you should have asked me about those reads then if you do not know where my head is at. Now you are just calling me scum because you think i have not reasoned my reads well enough yet you have had no intention to even find out why my reads are what they are.
It's not my job to find out why you spew out bullshit reads with no explanation. The onus is on you to explain yourself. But again, that isn't even my point AT ALL. My entire point was that the way you are acquiring those reads is entirely inconsistent with how you acquired reads in Red Team. In Red Team, you saw something you didn't like, and either made a case right there, or you started poking and prodding at the person, questioning them and their motives. This game you just drop a name. Why so different?
On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote:
- uncooperative - I see myself being the most cooperative peron before we got our roles. there are a lot of people who are way more uncooperative. After the roles were out i have had basically no time to think about the game, but that's gonna change now.
Again, missed the whole point. You said that the top picks needed to be cooperative with picking powerful roles/denying scum roles. But didn't try to cooperate at all with the top picks once the draft order came out.
On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote:
- excessive posturing to attempt to get himself in the top picks - rofl, why wouldn't you want to be #1 person picking? How is this alignment indicative at all? Actually, scum would more likely try to avoid being the #1 picker because that automatically gives you a lot of attention and less chances to fakeclaim later if needed. Also the top guys are gonna get killed anyways early on as they probably have the "best" roles in the game. If they do not die it brings more attention to them.
I already addressed that.
No, trying to get yourself in a top pick isn't scummy, in itself. Rapidly changing your mind to a plan that benefits you more, personally, than town, and then refusing to back up your opinions on cooperating with the other top picks is scummy, though.
I'm looking forward to seeing what you contribute today, though. Hopefully you can change my mind.
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On April 08 2013 07:37 gonzaw wrote:
Question: How do you guys feel about both Shevlocke and Artanis being scum? Do you think this is possible (even considering Artanis' vote of Shevy up there)? If so, what do you think the correct course of action would be today?
Also, Sharrant get your ass in here, take your vote off Keirathi and do something.
Yamato, tell us why you parked your vote on Palmar and did shit all D1. Yes, I know you are "suspicious" of Palmar from that case you wrote, but you've ignored everything about Artanis, Shevlocke, and everything else. This is not helpful and is NOT how you played in early draft phase. Step up
I advise those that have votes on "irrelevant" people with just 1-2 votes take a step back, analyze them and Artanis/Shevlocke/etc again, and then tell us if you will keep parking your vote on that irrelevant guy, try to actually convince us to lynch him, or take a stance on Arty/Shevvy and put your vote on an actual lynch.
RO, do you still think S&B is scum? You parked your vote on him and I don't remember you commenting on him at all afterwards. You haven't commented on Artanis either.
Like half the game is just apathetic towards everything. I wish I could just shoot all of you :/
Yes, I'm currently waiting on the 'good things' he claims he'll do for town. As is now, I still think he's scum and the couple posts he did inbetween don't really make me reconsider.
I haven't commented on Artanis because I have no real strong feelings about him. He has looked more useful and 'townie' in his recent town games, but I'm not seeing much that screams scum, so I'm kinda 'meh' on him.
See how useless this read is? That's why I didn't feel the need to share it.
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On April 08 2013 08:00 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 07:37 gonzaw wrote:
Question: How do you guys feel about both Shevlocke and Artanis being scum? Do you think this is possible (even considering Artanis' vote of Shevy up there)? If so, what do you think the correct course of action would be today?
Also, Sharrant get your ass in here, take your vote off Keirathi and do something.
Yamato, tell us why you parked your vote on Palmar and did shit all D1. Yes, I know you are "suspicious" of Palmar from that case you wrote, but you've ignored everything about Artanis, Shevlocke, and everything else. This is not helpful and is NOT how you played in early draft phase. Step up
I advise those that have votes on "irrelevant" people with just 1-2 votes take a step back, analyze them and Artanis/Shevlocke/etc again, and then tell us if you will keep parking your vote on that irrelevant guy, try to actually convince us to lynch him, or take a stance on Arty/Shevvy and put your vote on an actual lynch.
RO, do you still think S&B is scum? You parked your vote on him and I don't remember you commenting on him at all afterwards. You haven't commented on Artanis either.
Like half the game is just apathetic towards everything. I wish I could just shoot all of you :/ Yes, I'm currently waiting on the 'good things' he claims he'll do for town. As is now, I still think he's scum and the couple posts he did inbetween don't really make me reconsider. I haven't commented on Artanis because I have no real strong feelings about him. He has looked more useful and 'townie' in his recent town games, but I'm not seeing much that screams scum, so I'm kinda 'meh' on him. See how useless this read is? That's why I didn't feel the need to share it.
dis shit too hard.
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@austin: Stop with the "he was discussed off a bunch" thing. Reread that part of my case, and what exactly I mean by it.
I'm not meaning what you think I'm meaning.
+ Show Spoiler +My point was that Artanis wasn't mentioned at all in the rolepicking phase nor D1. Shevlocke was mentioned in D1. There, argument ended
My feelings on Shevlocke reflect (and/or reflected) the same thoughts I made in that 1st post.
I can see some of the stuff he did, and mentioned about VE as scum for instance, but I can also think of him doing so as town in a null way.
I can't really say much more about it. It might help if I knew who he was smurfing as.
You can't just bully me into thinking he's surely scum or something right now, just as apparently I can't bully you into thinking Artanis is scum.
Right now I'll let things be (I'm a wise man in the end ya know?) and see how things develop from here.
Nothing good will come out from me spamming the thread regarding this whole issue again.
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On April 08 2013 07:52 Shelvocke wrote:
Austin, what is your point? Do you actually think that me having different expectations for VE and strongandbig and people not talking about me are good reasons to think that I'm mafia? Like right now I'm resisting the urge to call you a tunneling moron so much, it's not even funny. Nope. I think you're the towniest mofo here.
Wait, that's wrong. My point is that I think you're mafia.
You're following thread by mainly providing minor comments on side issues.
I dislike your reason for thinking VE is mafia, but you put it in thread, and me disagreeing with your analysis doesn't make you mafia.
But you vote him without saying anything about what he said or anyone said about him over a 24 hour period, while reading thread enough to comment on snb and to say later that VE was asking to be lynched. Your scumread, your vote, seems less important to you than he should be, because instead of commenting on him over that 24 hour period you comment on snb.
Your read on snb is fluffy. No posts. No follow-up. Poking gonzaw earlier about snb, so apparently you've been somewhat focused on snb, but two dinky little lines are all you've got about snb? Not buying.
Right now I AM tunneling you. I'll address that later.
Here, since you're around:
(1) Do you continue to to find snb scummy? Can you give me less-fluffy reasons for that read?
(2) Do you agree with Gonzaw that you were discussed/suspicified earlier in the game/moreso than Artanis was? If you don't, does that affect your Gonzaw read?
(3) How do you feel about any two of the following: mocsta, keirathi, sinani?
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On April 08 2013 08:01 gonzaw wrote:
@austin: Stop with the "he was discussed off a bunch" thing. Reread that part of my case, and what exactly I mean by it.
I'm not meaning what you think I'm meaning.
My point was that Artanis wasn't mentioned at all in the rolepicking phase nor D1. Shevlocke was mentioned in D1. There, argument ended. We may be on slightly different pages here, but I don't think I'm missing your meaning as much as you think.
If you think that shelvocke was mentioned in the number picking phase, you would be wrong. At least, I'm all the way back to page 15 ctrl + f-ing for both "shelv" AND "shev" (some people are typoing it like that) on every page and not finding anyone with a read on him.
If you think he was discussed during the time where we had numbers and were picking roles, you'd be wrong. He was not.
However, if you're just talking about D1, after the first 2+ real life days in this game, then yeah, he was MENTIONED (barely). But not by many, and there was never any followup from anyone.
strongandbig says that Shelvocke is scum after Shelvocke starts on VE. No followup, nobody else talked about this but BM who called snb scum based on some association, then filtered snb and decided he wasn't scum.
Vivax commented on him as part of thoughts on three folks. Seems to have found shelvocke's actions concerning VE's case on RO to not match up with what he would expect a townie's actions to be. But didn't seek any comment, didn't really say more than that. It's a mention, but it's not a discussion at all.
On April 07 2013 09:43 Restraining Order wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2013 09:35 Vivax wrote:
Well whatever, I feel like I'm getting into nitpicky stuff. Can you give me a quick opinion on Shelvocke instead? Will see how you perform over time instead. Feel free to answer if you want to, it would help me get a better read on you though. I don't have one, really. + Show Spoiler +I don't have any hope at all for the quality of your read on me, so that does not sound very enticing, just so you know. Vivax mentions him again to RO, asking RO for a read. RO explicitly has no read.
If I'm looking for people who have been mentioned/discussed, I'm looking for more than that. I will go ctrl + F for artanis if need be, but I think you're mistaken in how much each player got mentioned. Shelvocke certainly wasn't mentioned before the start of the actual voting phase, and once that started he got a couple offhand mentions but really nothing until I've been trying to push this. Those couple comments on him are really more than artanis got mentioned? And they count as like...actual mentions and comments?
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I am now spamming about this too much but it's frustrating me. Gonna go look at some non-shelvocke stuff and stop this for now.
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On April 08 2013 07:54 Keirathi wrote:@rayn: good, you're back First: ##UnvoteNow, let's talk a bit: Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote:
1) How much time i devote to the game depends on how much time i have available. I have not ahd much time this weekend. What are you defending here? WHY are you defensive? I didn't call you out for lurking/not contributing/whatever. Weird opening statement. Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote:
How i play also depends on the setup. It's very different when everyone is vanilla or when everyone has roles. You are making a meta case and later on you say you are not even sure about my meta. How do you think anyone is going to believe you if you are not sure yourself? You're right to an extent. I said that I hadn't read your scum meta. But everything about your play has been so glaringly different from the way you JUST played as town. Why? "Because the game is different" isn't an excuse for thinking and behaving completely differently.
The statement above is basically my answer to this question. I had very limited time during the weekend (well, not really limited time but rather shittiest internet connection ever) so i decided to call people who i thought are scum actually scum. I agree not likely the best approach i could have taken but at least it's better than not doing anything imo.
You didn't specifically call it dumb. I was...paraphrasing, a bit. And that post you just linked came before the post where I said you were calling geript's plan dumb, which is even weirder. Let's look at the progression, exactly: Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:13 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 05 2013 01:20 geript wrote:
New plan: Instead of having a set 'draft list' in that say people drafting from 1-4 need to choose from a list of ABCD roles. People drafting from 5-8 need to draft from a list of EFGH, etc. etc. This makes it very risky for Scum to draft both outside of their own list and inside of their own list. This is absolytely the best plan and the only one i'm going to support. We just need to find out what the roles are that we put to 1-4, 5-8, etc. Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:28 raynpelikoneet wrote:
I also support Vivax' idea if i get to be #1, Geript #2, and yamato, Mocsta, Sharrant #3-#5. Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 02:39 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Combine Vivax' + Geript's ideas and let these guys pick [1][1], [2][1], [3][1], [4][1], [5][1] (everyone else picks [6->] [X]):
Then: Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 03:14 raynpelikoneet wrote:
I don't think the players who are going to pick first should be limited to X number of roles. geript's plan was exactly that: the people in the first 4 slots (aka pod, in this case) would be limited to a certain pod of picks. You said that was unarguably the best plan for town. Then changed your mind and are saying it's a bad plan. That's what I was getting at, here. Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote:
There is no reason to push any plans further when people reacted to any plans like they did. 3/4 of the people said "fuck all the plans", "i'm gonna do whatever they want so fu" or "it takes all the fun out of the game". What's the point of discussing any plans further when you already know it's not gonna happen anyways? At least i fucking provided a plan that had four town reads in it for people to discuss but no.. Everyone just hopped right over that part.. Ugh, I hate this kind of excuse. "No one else was doing anything, so I refuse to do anything too!" YOU were the one saying that the top picks needed some kind of cooperation. Why didn't you try to get any? You just got your top pick, and buggered off.
Lol i see what you mean. Sorry. I never meant to say "do not follow Geript's plan" in the post you quoted from me. This one:
I don't think the players who are going to pick first should be limited to X number of roles.
What i meant to say was that the first 4 pickers should not be limited to exactly 4 roles as this will make them overlap/give mafia info about the roles. I think your list was quite accurate (as i said before) and i myself went with that list. People didn't say the list was bad so i assumed they thought it was good and followed it aswell.
Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote:
TLDR;
- Strange reads with no progression or reasoning - maybe you should have asked me about those reads then if you do not know where my head is at. Now you are just calling me scum because you think i have not reasoned my reads well enough yet you have had no intention to even find out why my reads are what they are. It's not my job to find out why you spew out bullshit reads with no explanation. The onus is on you to explain yourself. But again, that isn't even my point AT ALL. My entire point was that the way you are acquiring those reads is entirely inconsistent with how you acquired reads in Red Team. In Red Team, you saw something you didn't like, and either made a case right there, or you started poking and prodding at the person, questioning them and their motives. This game you just drop a name. Why so different?
Explained before.
Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote:
- uncooperative - I see myself being the most cooperative peron before we got our roles. there are a lot of people who are way more uncooperative. After the roles were out i have had basically no time to think about the game, but that's gonna change now. Again, missed the whole point. You said that the top picks needed to be cooperative with picking powerful roles/denying scum roles. But didn't try to cooperate at all with the top picks once the draft order came out.
There was no way any cooperation was going to be useful. I agree i made a mistake by not clearly stating that the list you proposed regarding the roles was good. I thought people found that out too as there was no opposing arguments. And that was all the cooperation i found to be useful at that point.
Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 06:59 raynpelikoneet wrote:
- excessive posturing to attempt to get himself in the top picks - rofl, why wouldn't you want to be #1 person picking? How is this alignment indicative at all? Actually, scum would more likely try to avoid being the #1 picker because that automatically gives you a lot of attention and less chances to fakeclaim later if needed. Also the top guys are gonna get killed anyways early on as they probably have the "best" roles in the game. If they do not die it brings more attention to them. I already addressed that. No, trying to get yourself in a top pick isn't scummy, in itself. Rapidly changing your mind to a plan that benefits you more, personally, than town, and then refusing to back up your opinions on cooperating with the other top picks is scummy, though.
I hope i explained that in my above responses in this post.
I'm looking forward to seeing what you contribute today, though. Hopefully you can change my mind.
Why are you unvoting me me if my answers do not please you?
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British Empire Mini Mafia II [Town]:
Comfortable with 180 when confronted with new information
Openly questions his detractors
Sarcasm/teeth to his posts
Early game attention grabber with BS vote on Marv (wasn't even in the game) - not afraid of the spotlight
Direct/engaged mid-lategame
One of his post-game posts I believe he mentioned before in this game, that he was trying to change up his playstyle a bit:
+ Show Spoiler +On March 09 2013 09:26 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Well, just reading the thread and getting reads off that is easy, actually doing analysis on players and posting it and trying to convince others, using meta, etc. is something else and it's not something you bothered with. When I did do so and people barely/didn't respond to it and still happily voted for me, it doesn't particularly make the game very fun.
Fruity Mafia [Town]:
First major thing that stands out to me is how he formulated this post. He talked about 4 other players then said ObviousOne looked bad (I really did, bee tee dubs):
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17802815
He guilted me out of my scum read on Toad (Zessionar in that game):
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17811235
Full of questions / interactions / poking
Was a town power role and got very bold D2 but town confidence overall was high.
Otherwise rather similar to British
TL Mafia LI [Mafia]:
Talks about things mafia would/wouldn't do (his example was scum don't make big slips)
Points out a big scum slip (lol see above)
Posts in a reassuring tone (regarding his own reads)
Attacked inactivity and claims
Post-game confessions:
On April 13 2012 14:32 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I'm surprised so many people thought I was scum, given that I would've done the same lurking as town given the size of the game. I would've posted more if I could but I simply got lost in all the traffic; def won't be playing another 30 player game. The only post that really tipped me off was the one ghost accurately called out, I don't think I would've made that as town but mafia IRC said it was a good idea. Given my early bus on VE after his claim I'd think after VE flipped I'd get a bit more credit too.
Characteristics I picked out from Haunted [2010]:
- Makes summaries {conglomerations of players posts} with blanket statements regarding alignment - I used to do this all the time especially in my earliest games
- Feigned/Real inactivity/unavailability - not necessarily a scum tell but a useful scum tool
- Offers to be "helpful" for a period of time - not taking the initiative and doing something useful himself
- Defensive stance - possibly a product of being under suspicion when being replaced in, but in this game was used to misdirect suspicion on lurkers to non-mafia faction
THIS GAME:
Dismissive in D0, not chasing shadows or anything really
Some concept of a plan presented, not really pushed
Not very inquisitive
Giant poop in the thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18226316
No real back-and-forth happening
Barely here
The OBVIOUS conclusion:
Scum
Spend way more time defending / deflecting than scum hunting, less interactive than his town games. By extension of this, he's missing that edge of sarcasm and incredulity in his voice that is present when he calls people out on their bullshit as town. He doesn't seem interested in getting people to re-factor their reads. Way too defensive to match his town meta in any way.
Added note: his filter is barely 2 pages and we've already been active for four real-time days if I am not fucking up my maths. Both scum game filters were short (less than 3 pages each) and showed him hiding by posting just enough to not be considered a lurker.
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On April 08 2013 08:02 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2013 07:52 Shelvocke wrote:
Austin, what is your point? Do you actually think that me having different expectations for VE and strongandbig and people not talking about me are good reasons to think that I'm mafia? Like right now I'm resisting the urge to call you a tunneling moron so much, it's not even funny. Nope. I think you're the towniest mofo here. Wait, that's wrong. My point is that I think you're mafia. You're following thread by mainly providing minor comments on side issues. I dislike your reason for thinking VE is mafia, but you put it in thread, and me disagreeing with your analysis doesn't make you mafia. But you vote him without saying anything about what he said or anyone said about him over a 24 hour period, while reading thread enough to comment on snb and to say later that VE was asking to be lynched. Your scumread, your vote, seems less important to you than he should be, because instead of commenting on him over that 24 hour period you comment on snb. Your read on snb is fluffy. No posts. No follow-up. Poking gonzaw earlier about snb, so apparently you've been somewhat focused on snb, but two dinky little lines are all you've got about snb? Not buying. Right now I AM tunneling you. I'll address that later. Here, since you're around: (1) Do you continue to to find snb scummy? Can you give me less-fluffy reasons for that read? (2) Do you agree with Gonzaw that you were discussed/suspicified earlier in the game/moreso than Artanis was? If you don't, does that affect your Gonzaw read? (3) How do you feel about any two of the following: mocsta, keirathi, sinani?
1. I'm leaning mafia. I have no way of knowing whether he's actually busy or not so I'm just disregarding that part. He definitely looks more concerned about what's going on right now but I get the impression when I read that larger post of his that he is kind of just going through the motions; he picks out a bunch of random posts and just drops a short remark on them. It doesn't feel natural.
2. I have no idea and I don't care about this.
3. Mocsta and Keirathi both look town to me. I don't think they're correct about rayn but they seemed to legitimately believe that he was mafia.
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Also sorry to dine and dash but my cousin wants to hang out, back in a few hours if I manage to be wakeful when I get home.
Oh, gotta vote too.
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On April 08 2013 08:15 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Why are you unvoting me me if my answers do not please you?
BECAUSE I'M THE MOTHERFUCKING JUGGERNAUT, BITCH.
No, but in all seriousness, it's because (as I alluded to earlier in the post when I unvoted), I wanted to have a logical conversation. I didn't want you to be on your back foot, so to speak, so that you wouldn't be defensive/etc. I wanted genuine explanations, in short, to decide if I could believe them or not. Not half-ass explanations because you are scared of what you say.
I like that post much more, btw.
Looking elsewhere for now.
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On April 08 2013 08:23 Shelvocke wrote:
3. Mocsta and Keirathi both look town to me. I don't think they're correct about rayn but they seemed to legitimately believe that he was mafia.
Elaborate please?
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EPT
