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On April 04 2013 22:12 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 22:11 Oatsmaster wrote:On April 04 2013 22:10 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 22:08 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 04 2013 22:04 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 22:02 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 04 2013 21:58 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 21:54 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 04 2013 21:52 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 21:31 raynpelikoneet wrote:
[quote]
Let's say you try to pick CPRdoctor as #3. You get vanilla. You claim you tried to pick CPRdoctor and that you didn't get it when D1 starts. Scum have a member in #1 or #2. You just gave out the town CPRdoc. Scum can even random a kill on #1 or #2 and if the CPRdoc flips town, you have no way of knowing if the other guy is mafia, if the #3 picker is mafia. What's next? Do you kill those guys too? Just to be sure they are not lying?
If not, why did you gave out scum role information in the first place? Or perhaps we just figured out the scum CPRdoctor.I think as said before, some ppl may be going for "superstar' roles and become Vanilla. i see value in those disclaiming that the role exists in the game. It is then up to town to decide how much credence they want to give to the claim. Why do you think so? CPRdoctor is not a bad role if used right. It's a fucking multi shot night vigi! I dont see a point debating this. Its a role either alignment can want; perhaps even moreso as a personal preference. So you just argued against yourself? As i said there is no way of knowing who is telling the truth and who isn't and all you are doing by vanilla claims is give scum information about town roles. Are you a knob head or something? You are the one who said, #3 who tries for CPR outs the town CPR at #1 or #2. I was pointing out the fallacy in your logic. i.e. could be town or scum.. not just town. My point is exactly that. You can't know. How are you going to figure that out? Seriously, your starting to piss me off. Find where I state I will believe the claim? I am saying it is a tool that can be used to catch liars blah blah later down the track. How? because its information. just because we have it now, doesnt mean we need to process it now. its something that can be stored away, and pulled out post flips, or watever. im really surprised we have to comment about basics of mafia play here?
???
So why dont we all roleclaim at the start of the game then?
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On April 04 2013 22:23 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 22:13 Oatsmaster wrote:On April 04 2013 22:12 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 22:11 Oatsmaster wrote:On April 04 2013 22:10 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 22:08 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 04 2013 22:04 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 22:02 raynpelikoneet wrote:On April 04 2013 21:58 Mocsta wrote:On April 04 2013 21:54 raynpelikoneet wrote:
[quote]
Why do you think so? CPRdoctor is not a bad role if used right. It's a fucking multi shot night vigi! I dont see a point debating this. Its a role either alignment can want; perhaps even moreso as a personal preference. So you just argued against yourself? As i said there is no way of knowing who is telling the truth and who isn't and all you are doing by vanilla claims is give scum information about town roles. Are you a knob head or something? You are the one who said, #3 who tries for CPR outs the town CPR at #1 or #2. I was pointing out the fallacy in your logic. i.e. could be town or scum.. not just town. My point is exactly that. You can't know. How are you going to figure that out? Seriously, your starting to piss me off. Find where I state I will believe the claim? I am saying it is a tool that can be used to catch liars blah blah later down the track. How? because its information. just because we have it now, doesnt mean we need to process it now. its something that can be stored away, and pulled out post flips, or watever. im really surprised we have to comment about basics of mafia play here? ??? So why dont we all roleclaim at the start of the game then? In my humble opinion; the two events are trying to achieve different outcomes. mass Roleclaim: as far as I understand it, is an attempt to solve the game setup; and establish individuals as confirmed town/scum. Forced VT claim: is an attempt to understand whether "key roles" are in the game. The action itself should not be used to establish individuals as confirmed town/scum. I see a clear dichotomy.
And if we know the roles in the game, how does that help us?
Info is a lazy answer dude.
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On April 04 2013 22:27 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 22:13 raynpelikoneet wrote:
EBWOP: It's a possibility that they are town. If you are going to lynch them/cop them you are going to use roles/lynches that could be used otherwise just to figure out their alignment based only on "they could be scum".
If you are wrong about them being mafia, you give mafia information about town roles and where they are. What if mafia kills the town CPRdoctor on N1, and they have a copy cat? What if they swap the role?
People high on draft order tend to die early on either way because it's reasonable to assume they have the best roles in the game. By outing those roles you are giving mafia opportunities to narrow the possibilities where the good roles actually are. I think where all this comes into play is that you are treating everything literally. Perhaps when it comes to a "plan" that has not been fleshed out; that is the natural assumption to make. i.e. 1 hard rule that applies to all situations. To me, the whole concept isnt black/white. But thats the whole point of this discussion, to brainstorm / refine / implement. Prior, I was not a fan of yam/sharrant force the draft pick plan. I still am not. However, I do see merit if people choose to claim the role that made them VT. I am not trying to enforce this as mandatory by any means; I am hoping with enough information out there, people can make an informed decision for themselves.
Also this gives scum info and you should never give scum info.
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So WHY THE FUCK DONT ALL BLUES CLAIM AT THE START OF THE GAME YOU IDIOT.
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On April 04 2013 22:36 Restraining Order wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 22:35 Caller wrote:
oim tellin ya gits just do wot i say. any mo discussin' of deez bad scummy planz iz gonna be a big' ol scum flag fo me. so if you don' wanna incur da wrath of khaller i sugest ya gitz find somethin' else to dizcus. in meantime, just folo mah straterjee, oite? You mean, as opposed to claiming, you want people to claim. After you said claiming is nonsense and doesn't work.
New rule, whoever tries to get someone lynched of a joke is scum.
RO is scum.
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On April 04 2013 22:41 Restraining Order wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 22:39 Oatsmaster wrote:On April 04 2013 22:36 Restraining Order wrote:On April 04 2013 22:35 Caller wrote:
oim tellin ya gits just do wot i say. any mo discussin' of deez bad scummy planz iz gonna be a big' ol scum flag fo me. so if you don' wanna incur da wrath of khaller i sugest ya gitz find somethin' else to dizcus. in meantime, just folo mah straterjee, oite? You mean, as opposed to claiming, you want people to claim. After you said claiming is nonsense and doesn't work. New rule, whoever tries to get someone lynched of a joke is scum. RO is scum. Am I mafia independently of the first sentence, or did I already try to get someone lynched without myself noticing?
Pointing out contradictions is pointing out that the dude is lying and therefore scum. So yeah.
Also WHO ARE YOU
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On April 04 2013 22:46 Restraining Order wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 22:44 Oatsmaster wrote:On April 04 2013 22:41 Restraining Order wrote:On April 04 2013 22:39 Oatsmaster wrote:On April 04 2013 22:36 Restraining Order wrote:On April 04 2013 22:35 Caller wrote:
oim tellin ya gits just do wot i say. any mo discussin' of deez bad scummy planz iz gonna be a big' ol scum flag fo me. so if you don' wanna incur da wrath of khaller i sugest ya gitz find somethin' else to dizcus. in meantime, just folo mah straterjee, oite? You mean, as opposed to claiming, you want people to claim. After you said claiming is nonsense and doesn't work. New rule, whoever tries to get someone lynched of a joke is scum. RO is scum. Am I mafia independently of the first sentence, or did I already try to get someone lynched without myself noticing? Pointing out contradictions is pointing out that the dude is lying and therefore scum. So yeah. Also WHO ARE YOU If I wanted to point out a person is mafia, I would have pointed out a person is mafia. However, I did no such thing.
pshhhh
words.
Intention is far more important than mere WORDS.
Why did you phrase that 'question' to Caller in a way to appear like you are discrediting him?
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Im against organized role claim by the way.
I think role claiming should be only done if the player in question makes the decision on his/her own.
Thoughts?
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I also think all the plans are hilariously scum favoured, there is a reason why dudes dont claim unless they have to or are VE.
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EBWOP: All the plans that involve claiming and stuff related to that
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On April 04 2013 23:07 Caller wrote:
alrighit guys i have an actual plan
its very simple: we kill the visceraeyes.
##vote:VisceraEyes
He doesnt have 10 pages of filter yet.
I agree.
Even if I cant lynch him 
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On April 04 2013 23:10 Oatsmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 23:07 Caller wrote:
alrighit guys i have an actual plan
its very simple: we kill the visceraeyes.
##vote:VisceraEyes He doesnt have 10 pages of filter yet. I agree. Even if I cant lynch him
now
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The difference between Personality 2 and this game was that personality 2 was a closed setup..
So out of reading that game Austin,
What are your concise thoughts on what we need to do?
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On April 04 2013 23:22 Caller wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 23:22 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On April 04 2013 23:18 Caller wrote:On April 04 2013 23:14 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Is there an ingame reason for it? do i need a reason? i just wanna kill him. Depends on if you want us to vote for him too or not. @Austin I don't have the time to read through that thread entirely, but from what I got out of it is that 3 people picked Janitor/CPR to ensure they had three people that could be held accountable for those actions? That sounds a bit excessive and I think we can get the same effect with less losses on blues from town's side. he is mafia vote for him or else you're scum
Thats 3 people and counting Caller, keep going and I will have great fun postgame 
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Palmar played in the last PYP.
Any thoughts on the picking strategy Palmar?
Also after reading some of the start of PYP:Redux, I think that denying powers is super important.
Something about Austin wanting us to declare top 3 roles is that scum know what we plan on picking/think is important and adjust their strategy around that.
So Im not in favor of this plan.
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oh god wall of text.
Sharrant please summaries your 'plan'
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oh deconduo too.
So you arent in favor of directing picks even though it wins the game right?
What is good out of the PYP games that you played previously and want to implement/do in this game since it is also a PYP game?
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On April 04 2013 23:44 austinmcc wrote:
And for Oats, because I WOULD like to see most people state 3 powerful roles and WHY they want to deny those from mafia.
(1) CPR doc - In mafia hands this is a multi-shot vig but without accountability (america = multi-shot nuker but has to publicly out self). Doubles mafia KP, but secretly.
(2) Assassin - See above. Mafia knows all alignments, therefore this is a multi-shot vig without accountability.
(3) Janitor - Information from flips good for town. Lack of that information for town bad. LOTS of KP roles in this game, good chance that some townies will be firing as well as mafia maybe getting extra KP, so there's the chance to hide multiple flips.
(4) Role swapper/copy cat - These are dangerous only in that they can be used to get dangerous roles. Role swapper somewhat prevents town from denying mafia a role, but power still out of mafia hands for a night and the town role swapper then basically can DT check someone (if they've claimed, see if they're lying. If not, can you tell whether they've used their role, and in a townie/scummy way?). Copy cat another way to try and get a strong power passed down.
Roles that I considered but dont' think are as strong as they look:
(1) Hooker - Multi-shot vig without accountability. Stronger than the above because you CAN infect multiple targets. Weaker than the above because can be medic protected off. Also weaker than the above because, HOPEFULLY, if a townie knows he's going to die next cycle, he can be very vocal and is trustworthy/semi-confirmed-town (given that town hookers shouldn't be hooking willy-nilly, so we can assume he was targeted by a mafia hooker).
How in the world does stating setup information help town? What?
Thats saying why GF is a good role. WHAT IS THE POINT?
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On April 04 2013 23:56 yamato77 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2013 23:44 deconduo wrote:
Morning all, things seem to have gotten heated pretty quickly. I've just skimmed the thread so far but I'm going to jump in with my opinion on the draft.
Setting predefined picks for the draft order tends to work out well for town. In fact it is a large reason for mafia getting caught out in the last two PYP games I played. However it is massively un-fun, and I feel goes against the spirit of the game. Its also the reason I got rid of the whole drafting phase in the PTP games I hosted.
If the majority want to go along with a pre-defined pick order, I'll co-operate. But given that there are almost three times more roles than players, why not have a free for all and play the game like its supposed to be played? I've specifically addressed this point before, but I will reiterate. You removed the draft order because of how you feel the game should be played. BC, then, made an obvious decision to NOT do that. Don't you think he has a reason for doing that? Should we just ignore possible advantages gained from setup just because we feel like it goes "against the spirit of the game"? If BC felt that way, why did he include the draft order? If he doesn't feel that way, why are you not trying your hardest to win? If it isn't against the rules, isn't it presumed by the host that it might happen?
oh god dont mention the host as a way of making your point.
Please dont.
Austin, arent the mafia favoured roles instantly killed when they are outed anyway, because they chose that role = they are mafia? Like we dont need to say 'OH YOU CONTRADICTED YOURSELF AT THE START. SCUM'
Also arent there only like 4-5 roles that everyone knows that are best for scum?
I just dont see how this discussion is a useful way to spend our time
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On April 05 2013 00:03 Sharrant wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2013 00:02 Oatsmaster wrote:On April 04 2013 23:56 yamato77 wrote:On April 04 2013 23:44 deconduo wrote:
Morning all, things seem to have gotten heated pretty quickly. I've just skimmed the thread so far but I'm going to jump in with my opinion on the draft.
Setting predefined picks for the draft order tends to work out well for town. In fact it is a large reason for mafia getting caught out in the last two PYP games I played. However it is massively un-fun, and I feel goes against the spirit of the game. Its also the reason I got rid of the whole drafting phase in the PTP games I hosted.
If the majority want to go along with a pre-defined pick order, I'll co-operate. But given that there are almost three times more roles than players, why not have a free for all and play the game like its supposed to be played? I've specifically addressed this point before, but I will reiterate. You removed the draft order because of how you feel the game should be played. BC, then, made an obvious decision to NOT do that. Don't you think he has a reason for doing that? Should we just ignore possible advantages gained from setup just because we feel like it goes "against the spirit of the game"? If BC felt that way, why did he include the draft order? If he doesn't feel that way, why are you not trying your hardest to win? If it isn't against the rules, isn't it presumed by the host that it might happen? oh god dont mention the host as a way of making your point. Please dont. Austin, arent the mafia favoured roles instantly killed when they are outed anyway, because they chose that role = they are mafia? Like we dont need to say 'OH YOU CONTRADICTED YOURSELF AT THE START. SCUM' Also arent there only like 4-5 roles that everyone knows that are best for scum? I just dont see how this discussion is a useful way to spend our time And what, pray tell, is a more important way to spend our time at this very moment? What would you rather be discussing?
I think we should be discussing which roles we want to deny but I dont think its alignment indicative at all.
Sorry if I didnt make that clear.
Ok on to the role denying part.
1. How many roles do we want to deny.
Im thinking either 2-3 I think it gets substantial less useful as a strategy the more roles you want to deny
2. Which are those roles?
Im thinking the same as Redux
CPR doc and Janitor basically.
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EPT
