EPTThis Town Ain't Big Enough Mafia - Page 9
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Zare looks REALLY terrible with the Keir flip. | ||
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On February 28 2013 07:14 thrawn2112 wrote: if zare is scum then this would have to be bussing: + Show Spoiler + On February 28 2013 00:38 zarepath wrote: I'm becoming more and more convinced that Adam isn't scum, mostly because I haven't yet found a satisfying answer to why Scum Adam would do what he did, unless it was to save Thrawn from having to duel, at which point the whole thing is a stupid association case. So I went into Keirathi's filter with some more open eyes. I hate first post town claims. Remember, thrawn wasn't on-board witht he "two scummy people duel" idea. He said making all those policies was pointless. So thrawn, why exactly do you want Hapa to duel? Do you think he is scum, or town? What is your ideal scenario for a duel? A strong townie vs a scum suspect? Or two scum suspects against each other? He gets on Thrawn AFTER everyone else has already. This is actually pretty late in the thread. I don't like that Keirathi's first "real" contribution is piling on top of Thrawn with everyone else and not actually contributing much, just asking Fake Interrogator Questions. On February 26 2013 10:50 Keirathi wrote: It wasn't a pointless question (and thrawn never answered it either). Thrawn came out and said "hey guys, forget all this policy stuff, its pointless. Just play!" Then, despite having no other mention of Hapa, as soon as other people start talking about him, thrawn was like "oh yea, hapa should duel tomorrow!" There's not even a read in there, since he took no stance on who *SHOULD* be dueling. It was just jumping onto thread sentiment with no thoughts towards Hapa from himself. After Thrawn again. Marv has been vocal about Thrawn's scumminess all thread, and it's basically the only thing that Keir is going after. It looks like sheeping. On February 27 2013 03:58 Keirathi wrote: I thought it was just a stupid move. Arbitrarily, I think it was scummy because he cut off all discussion about other candidates, and felt like just straight OMGUS because I was trying to get some discussion out of something I viewed as scum motivated. So was it "just a stupid move," or "scummy?" At this point everyone has declared it a very stupid move, so that's an easy sheep opinion to have, but also calling him scummy -- you either think he's scummy or stupid town. Then he had the gall to say that he dueled because I was trying to back out of a half-assed scum read? I feel like this is too emotional... phrases like "he had the gall" just seems too whiny to be substantive. And for two, what happened to his scum read of Corazon earlier on night 0? Oh right, he backed out of it because of further discussion. Hell he even went so far as to say that he wasn't a "tunnel machine" and that he pulls out of tunnels all th e time. But if I try to get some discussion about something that I view as scummy to see if I'm just being paranoid, he gets all holy roller and pulls the trigger on the duel. This isn't a case, it's whining. The situation reminds me a lot of GSL 3 (i think?). I saw something that I genuinely viewed as scummy and brought it to the thread. I took a lot of flak for it, but the difference is people were willing to discuss it with me while they were calling me scum. And as I talked it out more, and got some other perspective views, I changed my read. Why is he bringing this up? What's the motivation? He's basically saying that this is exactly like the time he was town, except only if Adam HADN'T dueled him, and if his scum read was wrong and needed to evolve. That's absolutely not a case on Adam, because in this meta reference he was wrong about his scum read, and Adam is his scum read in this case. Honestly the only connection I can see being relevant in the context of this post is the fact that he was town before. And bringing up a meta case like that, just for the sake of looking more town, in the middle of a post that is supposedly supposed to be your thoughts on Adam, seems scummy. I don't like that he doesn't make a case on Adam and is only whining about being dueled. And I also don't like that he hasn't made a case on anyone/anything else SINCE being dueled. On February 27 2013 03:48 Keirathi wrote: My reads haven't changed. I still think thrawn is likely scum because of his jumping around following thread sentiments, and I still see possible scum motivation in the Adam thing that I was trying to talk about. I'll write up some more later this evening when I get home, but I don't think an hour is enough time right now. It's been a night and he hasn't posted his reads. It's convenient that NONE of his reads have changed... but he didn't even HAVE reads on anybody other than those two people. Sure he still thinks what he thought about them, but he literally hasn't thought ANYTHING about anybody else, and hasn't even bothered to think ANYTHING since? On February 26 2013 16:03 Keirathi wrote: I'd appreciate it if someone could look at my points about Adam and give some comments other than "lol bad". Wanted people to talk about Adam, really wanted it bad. On February 26 2013 14:49 Keirathi wrote: I would be fine dueling thrawn. Why would town be fine with dueling? It's not like Keirathi even had a great case on Thrawn. Although, at the same time, why would scum be fine with dueling? Like others have said, NOT wanting to duel looks worse if you're scum. I don't know how to read this, but it's a very clear statement of intent for somebody whose ONLY read has been Thrawn, and hasn't even built a real strong case on him. ##Vote Keirathi Adam isn't scum. I just don't see the scum motivation for what he did at all. then he pushed keir pretty hard till the lynch. do you think he was bussing? Someone was. And that case was absolutely terrible. I very nearly made a post doing Keir's work for him debunking that case because of how terrible it was. Keir was scum for absolutely NONE of those reasons. | ||
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What's that supposed to mean. You going to make a case on me, or just keep cracking stupid jokes? | ||
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On February 28 2013 05:51 Alderan wrote: See I was thinking the exact opposite actually, and not only because I was one of the most vocal against the double lynch. I think Kier was probably just as inactive with the scum as he was in this thread. As soon as they realized he got dueled and it was going to be close, their best option was to propose a double lynch, mitigate damage and appear pro town when it worked out. It makes a lot of sense. Yeah, I went over the votes and this doesn't really make sense: [spoiler] 1. Thrawn on Keirathi 1-0 2. Yamato on Adam 1-1 3. Sylencia on Adam 1-2 4. Acro double-lynch 5. Cora on Adam 1-3 6. Hapa on Keirathi 2-3 7. Dieno on Adam 2-4 8. Iamp double-lynch ----- Here there is a long break in votes building up. ----- 9. Snarfs on Keirathi 3-4 10. Zarepath on Keirathi 4-4 11. Alderan on Keirathi 5-4 12. Thrawn double-lynch 4-4 13. Oats on Keirathi 5-4 ---- Here the momentum had clearly swung and it was really just a matter of time for the votes to come in. ---- 14. Yamato on Keirathi 6-3 15. Cora on Keirathi 7-2 [spoiler] Basically, I don't think scum was bussing before Snarfs' vote. Not saying Snarfs is scum and was bussing, just that he was the first in a couple of votes that in a few hours swung the momentum clearly in favour of Keirathi. Before that, there was a LOT of anger and frustration at Adam and a good chance of him getting lynched. It wasn't a done deal and scum might have been hesitant to hammer down that wagon, but I think that the people stating clearly that Keirathi is scum before Snarfs' vote are not scum throwing him under the bus. Afterwards? Well, that's another story. I believe there's at least one, and my likely suspect is Zarepath. | ||
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On February 28 2013 12:05 iamperfection wrote: there is no way hapa could say kier wasn't scum regardless of alignment. He would be claiming scum if he didn't say kier was scum towards the end. That's the point, he said it at the start. | ||
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On February 28 2013 12:09 Alderan wrote: I don't know... I think if you, iamp, and Thrawn flipped it would not surprise me if there was one scum. Put up or shut up. | ||
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On February 28 2013 12:12 Oatsmaster wrote: Yeah but look at his play Adam, it doesnt look like the Hapa Im used to. Hapa said keir was scum right at the start of the duel. But if keir showed up, it wouldnt take much for hapa to switch to adam I dont think. Anyway, if hapa steps it up, good. If he doesnt bad, and we can deal with him later. Acro, is double lynch scum favoured or town favoured? Please be more specific. I am not advocating double-lynching always. I was advocating double-lynching Adam and Keirathi. I still stand by my vote and think Adam is 3P. | ||
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On February 28 2013 12:13 Adam4167 wrote: After this guttertrash analysis, and the resulting flip - Deino goes into the duel tomorrow or D3 will be the shortest cycle in TL history. Doubt it, we'll have to wait 48 hours to lynch both of you. | ||
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On February 28 2013 12:17 Adam4167 wrote: You do not have a say in the matter of when I do or do not initiate duels I hate town for not killing this guy | ||
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On February 28 2013 12:23 Adam4167 wrote: If you want me to stop initialing duels then stop coming up with garbage like this for scum cases: Push legitimate cases. Then Ill agree with your duel choices. Are Australia and Romania the same thing? | ||
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I guess I shouldn't use running gags from the rest of TL in our cozy little subforum. The gag is that Romanians don't have a sense of humor, so if you don't get a joke, you must be Romanian. | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + Zarepath I haven't made up my mind yet, but there's some things incredibly off with Zarepath and I want to show town why he should duel tomorrow. 1. The list post + Show Spoiler [post] + On February 26 2013 06:07 zarepath wrote: I'm going to be mostly AFK for the rest of the Night so here are some reads/suspicions for the moment. Hapa The very first thing he does is claim town, which I really dislike. Proposes a policy. Suggests that all Cora wants to do is call Sylencia a dick... stoking the flames The 180 on iamp with not a lot of justification In the end he makes a fairly good defense (last post in his filter). The iamp 180 does look awful, but I can see the reasoning behind it. Oats Super spastic. Tons of questions. The other game I've played with Oats, this is how he played Day 1 in order to get information/discussion flowing. I am pretty sure that is his tactic now. But if literally zero cases or reads come out of it, his behavior is going to look scummy in retrospect. Keirathi Somebody else who soft-claimed town immediately, a thing I hate. Supposedly caught up with the thread but hasn't made his presence known in any substantial way. He needs to have opinions or something. Dienosore I feel like he is the stuffed animal of this game of mafia. He is cute and friendly and makes sweet pictures and hard to hate, but when night strikes he turns into an Agent of Evil and creepily plots our demise. Okay, so not really. His picture is potentially helpful/useful, and I like his tone, but he has really gone out of his way to talk about how friendly he is, which strikes me a little bit of Stranger In An Unmarked Van syndrome. He opts to be the nice welcoming guy to Cora when everyone else is finding excuses to hate him, and it just makes my heart swell. Then in his defense of his defense of Cora, he mentions multiple times how friendly he is. Why is he so concerned with looking friendly? Town doesn't need to worry how they look, just what they accomplish. Note that he also went out of his way to express how he is NOT good at catching scum. Why would town advertise that? Don't they want their arguments to hold sway? I want to see more of his conclusions from his mapping; undoubtedly several occur to him while he does the research. Adam What does Adam think about people not named Dienosore? Hard to tell. Snarfs Unless Snarfs has been mafia a million times in a row, his first line was a super annoying soft-town-claim that is not justified, in my opinion. Now that he's caught up I wonder what his other thoughts are. Sylencia I mentioned this earlier, but Sylencia looks the scummiest right now of all of the players. Others have contributed less/none, but the few things Sylencia has popped in to post fall easily under the Scum Motivated category. He has more work to do to stop looking scummy than anybody else. Just check his filter and the case makes itself. iamperfection His player list comment (assuming town will have the good players for some reason) sounds awful but when looked at, I can understand how it's simply just saying that there are so many good players we're bound to have at least one as town. His logic fails to account for the fact that mafia will also have good players, so it's not like town will now have it easy  . He calls someone town REALLY early in the game, which something you can usually only do with confidence when you are scum. He calls Snarfs scummy also very early in the game, then tells other people to discuss it. I think this is kind of null, but worth bringing up because it was a unique read. He goes out of his way to answer for corazon, tell him who is scum. I don't know that I can see scum acting this... forwardly. He is unforgiving in his opinions and doesn't really bend at all to town, and he just has this weird vibe. I get a sense of unique thoughts coming from this man. He gives a bunch of town reads, which is apparently something he just does. This man is a Wild Card. I think I like him. (And I can also understand how someone would be certain that he's scum and then suddenly decide he's no longer scum.) This post looks like it's contributing, but it isn't. Lets go through the list:
A list of all these people, yet only 1 conclusive read. What does this list do best? Make it look as if Zarepath is contributing to the game and scumhunting. However, he clearly isn't. This is not figuring things out, it's giving a vague commentary. 2. A really angry post about why thrawn should have been dueled. + Show Spoiler + On February 26 2013 23:35 zarepath wrote: I can't believe this happened. This seems far from the best duel we could have set up today. Thrawn switches his suspicions YET AGAIN: And then he bounces from hapa/acro to FOR SURE wanting to duel... Keirathi? But not to the point of ACTUALLY dueling him... just to the point of asking what OTHER people think about him dueling him. And his case came down to Keirathi only having a case against Thrawn based on meta... but isn't that, like, every single person in the thread? Everyone is surprised at Thrawn's performance this game based on his meta. Why isn't Snarf's tenuous Thrawn case scummier than Keirathi's? So why Keirathi? Why all the bravado about volunteering to be a duelist? No townie should want to be a duelist unless they feel super confident in their read -- at which point, they just ##Duel, not ask "DAE think my latest/greatest soft read is scum???" And in the end, he doesn't even have to do it. Thrawn made out like a BANDIT with this duel. I know I should be talking about adam/kier right now, but HOLY COW so many people got out of this one super well, including all of the lurkers/low contributors. All Sylencia has to do is vote and justify it; he doesn't have to forward unique reads on anybody but the two people. We could have spent 24 hours testing low contributors and seeing who their reads are when it has to be out of 11 other people, instead of just out of a pool of 2. Our ability to gain information has been CRIPPLED by a premature duel. We CANNOT do this again tomorrow. Marv was killed for his analysis, and his number one scum read was Thrawn.... and he's not even up for a duel? Even Thrawn himself seemed fatalistic about it (which isn't very townie IMO), and the fact he was "rescued" from this duel super early in the day is incredibly anti-town. Look how angry Zarepath is. Thrawn escaped the duel. Sure, it pissed me off too, but I had thrawn as my top scumread. Zarepath did mention him earlier (in passing), but he got casually dropped off the list. Now he comes roaring back. Why? Nobody knows. But making a big angry case on someone who can't get lynched is a great way of looking useful while not being useful in any way at all. 3. The Adam-Keirathi dilemma + Show Spoiler + On February 27 2013 12:03 zarepath wrote: @Thrawn: It's pretty clear why I didn't vote for Adam -- I explain it right at the end of my post. Because this format works off instant majority and not a time frame, there is no way to unvote out of a majority should something big come up that shakes everything up. I would rather wait for everyone to chime in before I place my actual vote, because if I contribute to an instant majority, I basically let half of town get out of this entire cycle without having to make a stake on anything. So yes, my vote will be on Adam, but not yet. This isn't Zare's first post about the matter. He does a long analysis of Adam and concludes he is scum. The analysis wasn't half-bad. The problem is this lack of commitment. There were 3 votes on Adam at the time. Why this fear of committing to your read? Well... because you may be forced to bussing your scumbuddy. Adam made his long post and the Adam wagon was losing momentum. So Zarepath made a long unnecessary case (see below) and jumped onto the Keirathi lynch. Note that at this point he is committed. If it's a bus, it's with conviction. 4. Not reading the thread + Show Spoiler + On February 28 2013 01:38 zarepath wrote: Acro, you ARE INSANE. Why do you believe both to be scum??? One of them DUELED the other when somebody else was already WILLING to. Why in the world would scum duel each other day 1? Double-lynching when one of the people dueled the other of his own volition is idiotic in this game. Anyone who is either not voting or is voting specifically for a double-lynch need to realize that they are relying completely on mafia being utterly retarded and not playing to their win condition in any way. Nuff said. For Zarepath: picking your case apart. + Show Spoiler + On February 28 2013 00:38 zarepath wrote: I'm becoming more and more convinced that Adam isn't scum, mostly because I haven't yet found a satisfying answer to why Scum Adam would do what he did, unless it was to save Thrawn from having to duel, at which point the whole thing is a stupid association case. So I went into Keirathi's filter with some more open eyes. I hate first post town claims. You keep repeating that, but claiming town is not a scumtell. About 90% of TL claims town at one point or another and plenty of people do it in their first post. There's even the Kenpachi rule, which probably doesn't work anymore, if it ever did, which states that the first person to attack Kenpachi (or whoever invokes the rule) for claiming town, is scum. It is still used from time to time. Remember, thrawn wasn't on-board witht he "two scummy people duel" idea. He said making all those policies was pointless. So thrawn, why exactly do you want Hapa to duel? Do you think he is scum, or town? What is your ideal scenario for a duel? A strong townie vs a scum suspect? Or two scum suspects against each other? He gets on Thrawn AFTER everyone else has already. This is actually pretty late in the thread. I don't like that Keirathi's first "real" contribution is piling on top of Thrawn with everyone else and not actually contributing much, just asking Fake Interrogator Questions. Being late and agreeing with people isn't a scumtell. In fact, the questions Keirathi asked weren't bad when he followed them up. The problem was that it was his ONLY contribution and he ignored everything else happening in the thread. But he got called out on that at the time (and ignored it). After Thrawn again. Marv has been vocal about Thrawn's scumminess all thread, and it's basically the only thing that Keir is going after. It looks like sheeping. This was the follow-up that made sense, and he was answering the question I asked him (why he bothered dropping in to ask a pointless question and not comment on any of the myriad of things happening in the thread at the time). So was it "just a stupid move," or "scummy?" At this point everyone has declared it a very stupid move, so that's an easy sheep opinion to have, but also calling him scummy -- you either think he's scummy or stupid town. He is not saying he thought both at once, he's saying he thought it was a stupid move, and then later thought it was scummy. The opinion wasn't novel, it was a rewording of the scum motivations Yamato and I had suggested. Either way, there is nothing inherently scummy about this post by Keirathi. I specifically asked him about his thoughts... it's not as if he decided to dump unoriginal thoughts in the thread for no apparent reason. I feel like this is too emotional... phrases like "he had the gall" just seems too whiny to be substantive. Being angry about getting in a duel you don't think you deserve is not a scumtell. This is an observation without any kind of conclusion. Why is he bringing this up? What's the motivation? He's basically saying that this is exactly like the time he was town, except only if Adam HADN'T dueled him, and if his scum read was wrong and needed to evolve. That's absolutely not a case on Adam, because in this meta reference he was wrong about his scum read, and Adam is his scum read in this case. Honestly the only connection I can see being relevant in the context of this post is the fact that he was town before. And bringing up a meta case like that, just for the sake of looking more town, in the middle of a post that is supposedly supposed to be your thoughts on Adam, seems scummy. I don't like that he doesn't make a case on Adam and is only whining about being dueled. And I also don't like that he hasn't made a case on anyone/anything else SINCE being dueled. Meh. I guess you could read this as a sinister motivated plot to bring his town meta into it, but honestly I read it as Keirathi being frustrated at being dueled out of nowhere when he wanted to duel his real scumread. It's been a night and he hasn't posted his reads. It's convenient that NONE of his reads have changed... but he didn't even HAVE reads on anybody other than those two people. Sure he still thinks what he thought about them, but he literally hasn't thought ANYTHING about anybody else, and hasn't even bothered to think ANYTHING since? Wanted people to talk about Adam, really wanted it bad. Why would town be fine with dueling? It's not like Keirathi even had a great case on Thrawn. Although, at the same time, why would scum be fine with dueling? Like others have said, NOT wanting to duel looks worse if you're scum. I don't know how to read this, but it's a very clear statement of intent for somebody whose ONLY read has been Thrawn, and hasn't even built a real strong case on him. Town is inherently fine with dueling, it's the only way of getting stuff done this game. Find scum and make sure he gets dueled, if he doesn't do it yourself. Scum, however, would only be fine dueling if they think they can get away with it and not die. In general scum would be far less likely to "be okay" with dueling. However, the question was loaded: there was no alternative answer Keirathi could give without looking scummy. He had called Thrawn scum all game, how could he suddenly back out of a duel with him, regardless of alignment? So the answer doesn't actually say Keirathi was fine with dueling, because he was forced to, or go through a shitstorm of questions and end up getting dueled anyway. So what this case is, is a summation of points, some of which might be minor scumtells, but none of which actually say why Keirathi was scum. At the time (and now still) this felt like a really fabricated case to bring new points to a lynch which was really simple to motivate. Keirathi was scum for not doing anything. You don't need to read scum into every single one of his posts to see how his play was scum-motivated: he was not scumhunting, not pushing his reads and not playing in any way townie. The MAIN problem with a case like this, is that I can go over anybody in this (or any other) game's filter and cherrypick some sentences. You don't look at the big picture, you don't explain why these posts have a scum motivation and you ignore obvious town explanations in favour of convoluted scum ones (like, why would town be fine with dueling?) | ||
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On February 28 2013 13:39 thrawn2112 wrote: acro so who is your main duel candidate? what do you think about oats, and what were you going to say about syl? About syl? I've said all there is to say about him. Syl is scum. He has done nothing, said nothing and given 0 reads. I didn't think it was possible for his activity level to drop off from the NMM37 level, but it has. Also, his vote is terrible. Imho it's worse than Dieno's. Regarding your Alderan/Oats/Zare idea: I agreed, which is why I thought Zare. I remembered the case being bad and the terrible list. However, didn't find anything. Oats seems REALLY unlikely due to how actively he was taunting Marv. That's some serious balls for someone who just got his ass kicked by Marv in LIX. Anyway, I'm all for Sylencia dueling Dieno tomorrow. I'm over my Dieno is cute and therefore town kneejerk reaction. Lets do this. I've seen Sylencia get active under pressure of lylo. Hopefully a threatened lynch will bring out the same. | ||
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On February 28 2013 17:54 Oatsmaster wrote: Yeah Dieno has been really careful with his play, not really ruffling anyones feathers, he seems WAY MORE serious than his CT game with the nice poster. Also basically fucked off in the last day. Im not so sure that Syl is scum though :/ And hapa is null cause lately he seems like town hapa, not useless lurky scum hapa. What has Sylencia done to make you think otherwise? | ||
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You state that me suggesting there's a 3P in Adam is bad play or scummy: what does offputting mean in that sentence? Yet 5 lines down you are doing it yourself for thrawn. Explain. | ||
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What happened to make Oats town and Cora scum? | ||
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