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On February 19 2013 03:08 Zessionar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2013 02:50 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On February 19 2013 01:53 wherebugsgo wrote:
4. If anyone would like to discuss the Zessionar out-of-game threats or whatever now, feel free to do so. I do not intend to do anything about this but I am willing to entertain opinions about what classifies acceptable behavior with regard to out-of-game comments. I personally don't think he did anything wrong, but clearly there are some people who disagree with me. Yes. I found his comments completely out of line and would consider not playing with him again for that reason. Mafia is a game in which the boundary between playing to win and just having as much of a good time as possible blur quickly. I've hosted a MTG Mafia game myself where I believe Marv and Acrofales got into a massive argument as the result of a tunnel that lasted too long. I didn't actually step in until one of the players pointed it out by PM, after which I realized that it had indeed gone too far. It's a very emotional game to play. Calling players retards for not seeing you're town without providing arguments is something that creates an extremely hostile atmosphere, especially when you do it as often as supersoft has done in this game. Not only that, but actually going as far as using out of game threats (saying he wouldn't play with them anymore if they voted for him) is completely out of proportion. It furthermore has the problem that you either only say it as town and therefore indicate your alignment, or you're using grave threats and calling people moronic for things that are outright false. Perhaps it's become standard in TL Mafia games, I don't know as I haven't participated in many recently, but the tenacity and ferocity of some of these wordings really got to me, and it was hard to contain myself not to just tunnel him for exactly that as I hate that kind of arrogant behaviour. It's really something you need to encounter before realizing how frustrating it can be to play with that, so I don't blame bugs for not taking action. I'm curious to hear the rest of you guys' thoughts on it. Also, the lack of an apology, rather ignoring the issue and even calling it annoying ticked me off even further. Everyone plays a role in these games and I play my role to win. My threat of never playing with anyone who votes me again was oviously not meant to be taken seriously. Especially regarding the scumplayers on that list, since it's their job to kill me. And therefor I won't apologize for that. And if you agressively demand a warning over and over in the thread it is annoying. You were the one who couldnt distinguish ingame from out of game.
I, personally, think that saying "Anyone who is voting me at the end of the day is terrible and I will never play with them again" is outside of the standard rules of fair play, and well into the "Dick Move" category. While I don't think it deserves punishment, had it been my game I would have told you to knock it off, and had I been playing I would have voted you solely out of spite.
TL;DR - ransoming votes is not cool, yo.
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On February 19 2013 03:12 marvellosity wrote:
it's the kinda thing that pisses me off in game, but i get annoyed and post bad things in games too.
after the game it all kinda washes away and i don't care anymore.
I agree. I never take things personal that happen ingame and in a appropriate frame these things are even a part of the game. I know that I sometimes cross the line and get too angry, but I feel sorry for that long time after the game ended.
I still feel sorry for a game where I called wbg an idiot several times (completely unjustified), when he catched me as scum and I got nuked :-/
@kei:
voting because of personal reluctance is playing against your wincondition and if you can't get over it, you probably shouldn't play mafia.
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On February 19 2013 03:08 Zessionar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2013 02:50 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On February 19 2013 01:53 wherebugsgo wrote:
4. If anyone would like to discuss the Zessionar out-of-game threats or whatever now, feel free to do so. I do not intend to do anything about this but I am willing to entertain opinions about what classifies acceptable behavior with regard to out-of-game comments. I personally don't think he did anything wrong, but clearly there are some people who disagree with me. Yes. I found his comments completely out of line and would consider not playing with him again for that reason. Mafia is a game in which the boundary between playing to win and just having as much of a good time as possible blur quickly. I've hosted a MTG Mafia game myself where I believe Marv and Acrofales got into a massive argument as the result of a tunnel that lasted too long. I didn't actually step in until one of the players pointed it out by PM, after which I realized that it had indeed gone too far. It's a very emotional game to play. Calling players retards for not seeing you're town without providing arguments is something that creates an extremely hostile atmosphere, especially when you do it as often as supersoft has done in this game. Not only that, but actually going as far as using out of game threats (saying he wouldn't play with them anymore if they voted for him) is completely out of proportion. It furthermore has the problem that you either only say it as town and therefore indicate your alignment, or you're using grave threats and calling people moronic for things that are outright false. Perhaps it's become standard in TL Mafia games, I don't know as I haven't participated in many recently, but the tenacity and ferocity of some of these wordings really got to me, and it was hard to contain myself not to just tunnel him for exactly that as I hate that kind of arrogant behaviour. It's really something you need to encounter before realizing how frustrating it can be to play with that, so I don't blame bugs for not taking action. I'm curious to hear the rest of you guys' thoughts on it. Also, the lack of an apology, rather ignoring the issue and even calling it annoying ticked me off even further. Everyone plays a role in these games and I play my role to win. My threat of never playing with anyone who votes me again was oviously not meant to be taken seriously. Especially regarding the scumplayers on that list, since it's their job to kill me. And therefor I won't apologize for that. And if you agressively demand a warning over and over in the thread it is annoying. You were the one who couldnt distinguish ingame from out of game.
Like I said, it's a grey area between playing to win and just enjoying yourself. I feel you've gone far too much into playing to win. At the end of the day, we all sign up because we enjoy playing, right? With the type of behaviour you showcased within the game you took away a large part of the enjoyment I had. Playing to win shouldn't be the end goal, playing to have fun should be. Winning is only part of that fun. That it was obvious that your threat wasn't serious isn't the case, as I wasn't aware of it and I'm sure I wasn't the only one, especially when you didn't revoke it when pushed regarding it.
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risk toad was the only one that properly bussed yamato, But vivax's first vote was not a seriuos one and he backed out of the bus anyway, you did a desperartion switch. That was not a mafia lead wagon by any stretch. Hiro went after yamato, I fingered yamato, sandro and syllogism kept the wagon alive and town pushed it through at the end.
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On February 19 2013 03:39 layabout wrote:
risk toad was the only one that properly bussed yamato, But vivax's first vote was not a seriuos one and he backed out of the bus anyway, you did a desperartion switch. That was not a mafia lead wagon by any stretch. Hiro went after yamato, I fingered yamato, sandro and syllogism kept the wagon alive and town pushed it through at the end.
fingered him for what? everyone just fell to a consensus on him without reasoning because he was an easy target. And my point is he could easily have been saved if he wasn't being bussed by toad and then didn't to show up to defend himself and some other useless lurker could had been lynched in his stead.
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We had plenty of reasons, but obviously it's harder to lynch someone if there's 4 mafia voting for the other wagon
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On February 19 2013 03:20 Zessionar wrote:
@kei:
voting because of personal reluctance is playing against your wincondition and if you can't get over it, you probably shouldn't play mafia.
How about this: if you can't get people to see that you are town without threatening them, holding their votes hostage, and insulting them, you probably shouldn't play mafia.
Mafia is a game where townies have to work together to achieve victory. When you have people demoralizing town with things like the stunt you pulled, that directly hinders town and needs to be dealt with.
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they had no case against me, there was nothing i could defend myself against.
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This was silly as fuck. I don't understand why scum refused to play well...Toad and Risk are both really solid scum players and Vivax is an excellent scum player in my (probably controversial) opinion. Yamato still refuses to play scum well but the rest of you should have done alright, a perfect town win with this many huge personalities clashing? You guys really fucked up.
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omg I laughed so hard at the Endgame post
lol nice Vivax, thanks for making my day :D
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Marv, waiting for you to submit a video where you eat a hat.
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I thought that was just a part of his blazinghand impression.
In which case he owes us a paint drawing of him eating a hat.
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that's not how he gets out of this.
Youtubevideo,
fork, knife, plate, hat, marv
and at least eating one bit
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hey guys I'm back. Some points from my PoV. Haven't read anything since I "ragequitted" yesterday, so there might be some explanations for some things I don't know yet, keep that in mind.
- I was really annoyed about this game for several reasons which made it really hard to play this for me. First thing was that once we saw the teams pretty much everyone in our team said the game is over before the game even started resulting in Yamato abandoning the game, resulting in us having to bus him d1, resulting in lack of motivation for everyone else (imo). Yes it's probably a cheap excuse but if you take that together with everything else that annoyed me there really wasn't a reason for me to play this after n1.
So please Yamato, don't sign up for 2 games at once if you can't even manage to play a single one and don't sing up for games if you're only willing to play as one alignment. That's just unfair for your teammates if you happen to role mafia again. I told you exactly what you need to do to look like your usual self and you just didn't.
- We had a Framer/RB hybrid and only 1 KP in a 16 player game, which led me to believe that there's probably something like a DT, a 1-shot DT a parity cop, a rolecop or a tracker/watcher. No idea if that assumption was right but that's what I was working off with. With that assumpting given and taken into consideration that we only had 1 KP I assumed that there's no protective roles on townsides or a 1-use protective role tops OR we had an SK in the game that buffs the NKs to 2 per night. After Yamato died n1 and this turned into a game of 10+ confirmed townies I told people (at n1) that we have to take a risk and just take the 50/50 gamble and deal with either Sandro or Syllo or we lose without a chance. Because of that we shot Sandro knowing that if he gets protected we could basicly give up at that point.
- I have still no idea what saved Sandro. Unless he lied (I see no reason for that to happen) that means there were 2 protective roles for town. Probably Jailer + VET because Jailer+Medic would be ridiculous. The moment Grush attacked me for not understanding that a roleblocker isn't a Jailer it was obvious he was the jailer and I assumed it's a VET on sandro from that point. Really frustrating for me because if that was to be the case there was no chance to make it at all and we just lucked badly because Grush protected Supersoft for whatever reason when both of Syllo/Sandro could have been protected from out entirety of 1 KP. Once I realized that (assuming my Jailer+VET assumption is correct) it got even more frustrating because VET on sandro is probably a stronger role than a medic on random 0815 noob.... Sure it's one use only but with only 1 KP that means we have to mislynch Sandro which is just not going to happen if both Sandro and Syllo are in the game and both are town. Because sure it's just 1 use but for every single night until you waste that 1 use.
- Everyone in our team played really badly. Vivax was one of the first guys to bring attention to yamato which is a no-go as mafia if you know the guy can't stand the heat, he kept on bussing every single guy in the team, which made him look somewhat decent but besides that there was nothing. Risk was apparently as frustrated as I was and wasn't playing. Yamato abandoned the game. The only good move we made (imo) was the n1 stunt I pulled. Both the RB on me and the faked vig on marv made me look really townish, just not going to make a difference if there's 10 confirmed townies in a game like this... And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I played good in any kind of way, I played horrible as well, Sandro figured me out d1 without a problem but I think the n1 action I did really was the only thing that wasn't utterly horrible from team mafia. So again, really frustrating for me.
- Obviously I really hated the teams. Once I saw them I instantly thought there's no way we're going to win. Marv + Syllo + Sandro + Supersoft as townies vs Yamato and Vivax who are both known to be really bad as mafia, Risk who's the lurkish kind of guy who only looks good by genuinely being pissed and insulting people without doing something and well me on top of that against that stacked of a town.
- I would have GLADLY taken a normal nightvig instead of a dayvig. You can't just shoot Syllo / Sandro / Marv Supersoft with a dayvig that has to be announced in the thread. So no way to deal with the situation we were in. Had I realized the everything above I would have told my team to harddefend Yamato until the game is over because we basicly needed something like 3 mislynches in a row to start off with to be able to deal with people like Syllo / Sandro / Marv / Supersoft / Laya / Coag
- Once it became clear what the blue roles are like it got even more frustrating for me because I really thought it's just imbalanced. Artanis with his 2 (?) shot dayvig that not only was on some random 0815 townie but had the ability to be given to a confirmed townie like Syllo who just owns mafias left and right (for all I cared I would have rather had 2 innocent childs in this game instead of that role...), 2 protective roles on towns side (unless Grush lied and was the guy who actually protected Sandro), probably still a DT / 1-shot DT / role-cop / parity-cop somewhere around and we had 1 KP, a dayvig we couldn't use unless we want to trade people 1v1 (we gave it to vivax on purpose, because he's more likely to get away with doing bullshit like shooting Sandro d1 for no reason than risk or me, but we figured it would still result in an insta-lynch on Vivax) and a probably pretty awesome RB / Frame hybrid. So basicly 3 goons + RB vs all that imo.
Now that's kind of what was going on my mind throughout the game. I was REALLY frustrated to say the least. Yes I'm probably exaggerating on each and every single point and making it look worse than it actually was but everything together made it really hard to play this game for me and I guess it was the same for everyone else on my team. There just never was a willingness to play this game once the PMs were out.
That being said, sorry for my poor performance, I didn't help at all improving the situation we were in and basicly ragequitted which isn't any better than what anyone else on my team did. And again, really impressive play from Sandro figuring out everything, including my own alignment after 24hours of game played.
I'm going to read some now to see what really happened.
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Insert cranial accessory into mouth. Marv, I told you to provide pictures I really wanted to pick!
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Dunno Toad, I felt pretty motivated to play the game despite the dark prospectives. I also think you're not giving me enough credit for my play.
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EPT
