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I did have reason for voting VE. It wasn't a big case but I stated my intent here. He wiggles his way out of Sloosh's questions and then throws dirt on Sloosh for no reason.
On February 10 2013 07:02 jaybrundage wrote:I would actually gladly lynch VE based on what SlOosh said and his responses Show nested quote +On February 10 2013 06:47 VisceraEyes wrote:
I wanted to discuss it with CHEESE tomorrow slOosh. I'm perfectly willing to discuss him with you today. -.- Show nested quote +On February 10 2013 06:56 VisceraEyes wrote:
That is, unless you just wanna talk to Palmar about it. I'll gladly just let you twist my intentions and lynch you for it later. <3
The bolded is my response.
On February 17 2013 01:53 debears wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2013 00:44 Oatsmaster wrote:
Actually,
##Unvote
##Vote: Debears
What do you have to say about Jay pushing VE incredibly hard? He pushed VE hard with no case written on VE at all by himself. He just suddenly decided "hey, VE is totes scum". You don't find that weird after he wrote about yamato? + Show Spoiler +On February 11 2013 13:02 jaybrundage wrote:YAMATO Cause Palmar said so WELP HERE WE GO Well first of all there's this Show nested quote +On February 10 2013 21:57 Palmar wrote:I think you guys should lynch a few people, but should I flip I want you guys to not forget that however good you think my scumreads are, any mediocre player with updated reads is more valuable than a dead great player with his old reads. Not to mention I'm not invested far enough into this game to actually consider my reads worth too much. Anyway, I think yamato, prplhz, snarfs, phagga, visceraeyes and cheesecake should be in the initial round of scum. I guess VE should not be strongly considered in this group unless I'm wrong about prplhz, but who knows. I'm fairly certain 2-4 of those players are scum. This leaves the group of me, mochsta, JX, oat, jay, djodref and sloosh as most likely 5-7 townies. jay and djodref are the ones I like the least. I'm not going to bother you guys with detailed PR cases (that's what I really call them, I actually write cases to convince town, not to prove people are mafia). I'm just going to pick out scum and tell you why in short.
Yamato is most likely scum. He basically seems to be picking a target that looks like it could die and then going for him. The giveaway part for me is how he's pushing his reads. Notice how often he seems to be looking for reasons to lynch people instead of looking for people who are scum: On February 07 2013 22:48 yamato77 wrote:
What town needs now is to consolidate, and I don't think anyone would oppose a JX lynch. It's quite interesting yamato77 already made it quite clear what he was going to do when JX predictably flipped town: On February 08 2013 10:27 yamato77 wrote:
Regardless of the JX flip I think Palmar is claiming mafia to us with that last post about the lynch.
And again with the "let's get everyone working together to lynch someone, not necessarily scum, just a lynch. To be fair he seems to think we're all town, but whatever. On February 10 2013 17:04 yamato77 wrote:
I don't think it's any stretch to say everyone should be on board with killing Palmar today. Sloosh is townier by a mile and Palmar is obviously not even playing the game, so he should just die. If he's town, oh well, someone has to die, and he's admitted to us that he's going to do nothing. If he's mafia then his team is retarded, or he's too cocky for his own good.
prplhz is another guy who is scum, this is why: He constantly advises people to do stuff, requests their opinions and puts forth very little concrete opinions himself. Examples: On February 07 2013 21:30 prplhz wrote:
But we're not lynching people because you think their play is "abhorrent to [your] notion of playing to win". His reputation is well earned and it's silly to lynch him on day 1 unless there's a really good case but the entire case against him can be explained away with "he's had a mental breakdown" and we can tolerate that for a single day as long as he isn't straight up lying to us so lets just wait it out and see what happens. Only bad thing about that is that we have to lynch someone else and this game isn't making much sense to me. I think I need to talk to slOosh. On February 08 2013 07:38 prplhz wrote:
@VisceraEyes Why are you so anxious to get rid of Palmar right now? No one said it could last forever. Why would we take the fact that he is Palmar away from the equation considering that .... he is Palmar? On February 08 2013 01:14 prplhz wrote:
Will people please comment on jaybrundage. JieXian sucks and he'll need to do something about that but in the meantime I want some feedback on jaybrundage. The last one really rubs me the wrong way, why is prplhz asking for "permission" to go after jaybrundage? If you think he's scum just go nail him. Also did you know prplhz completely disappeared during the night?  Anyway, more later if I have time. Lets start from the top Yamato wants to lynch Mocsta as quite a bit of people viewed Mocsta scummy at first Oats naming one and i know he had about 3-4 votes at one point in time. However when Mocsta actually writes up his defense Yamato completly back tracks. And chalks it up to Mocsta misunderstanding his case? Yamato thought Mocsta was scum it wouldn't be misunderstanding it would be him twisting words. And then Yamato just flips it around and calls Mocsta town later. Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 11:17 yamato77 wrote:
Djo, what do you make of Mocsta's case on me up there?
I have a hard time thinking it came from scum but he quite clearly misunderstands quite a lot of stuff. Ok So here Yamato comes full circle in Mocsta from hes scum to idk to yea hes town. And get this then Yamato calls JX scummy for calling Mocsta scum when a short while ago. Yamato was going after Mocsta with a pick axe. Also note his need as scum to want to kill Palmar ASAP. Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 12:54 yamato77 wrote:
I'm starting to come around to the idea of town Mocsta, actually. I believe he has a scum read on me, wrong or not. I'm not going to pick apart his case on me, because honestly it's too time consuming to do so, but rather, I'll say this: Reread what you've quoted with the idea that I'm town in your head, and you'll see what I've been doing this game. It does no good for you, as town, to continue to pursue me.
With that, I'd be behind a JX lynch. His one post is a "case" and vote on Mocsta. He was a QT spammer in our game together, and was far more active there than the thread, as opposed to his "carefree" town games like LIX. I'd be behind his lynch.
Palmar should also be on people's minds. No, you don't want to lynch Palmar D1 if he's town, but you don't exactly want him staying alive until tomorrow if mafia, either, so if he refuses to do anything for the rest of today I would say he should almost certainly be our lynch. A weak ass joke-vote on Prplhz is not meaningful contribution.
I don't like a Djodref lynch at the moment, but I need to reassess his posting from a more objective standpoint. I was giving him too much credit for his Mocsta read before. Still, I think he is perhaps not the best choice in front of people like JX/Palmar, so he's a backburner for me.
I don't know what's going on between VE/Snarfs, but I don't think people are cool with lynching VE so Snarfs needs some better contributions than a "case" on VE that I don't find to be good. Here he just becomes unreasonable demanding a JX lynch while not even listening to alternatives Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 05:41 yamato77 wrote:
If someone other than JX gets lynched today I will afk. The sole reason he wants to go after people now is lack of activity. He legit with all the information we have got from two lynches is gonna do a lurker lynch is he fucking srs? Yes lurking can be a tell of scum. But to use it alone as who you decide to kill at this point in the game is just a easy scum route. Also look at the people that he's defending VE prlhz the exact people that Palmar and Sloosh are going for. Also keep in mind his one track mind to want ot lynch Palmar. We have SCUM Yamato here. Show nested quote +On February 11 2013 12:45 yamato77 wrote:
One heuristic that I find important to mention about the behavior of people around yesterday's lynch is simple activity.
Assume that Sloosh and Mocsta are town. With Palmar's green flip, that means that I was wrong and mafia decided to make the lynch a choice between three town players. They don't care who dies, really, because any of the three is good for them. So mafia are more inclined to not care at all what happens yesterday. They lurk, slap their vote somewhere, and do nothing relevant to the game because there is zero chance of them getting lynched and they have no reason to push a mafia agenda.
So who fits this bill from yesterday? Snarfs, jay, and djo. Djo is the question mark of the three, because he simply didn't post at all. The other two, however, had very similar days and patterns of activity. They both slapped their vote on someone early, and then basically AFK'd. Right now, I think Snarfs is the best lynch because of this behavior and his similar behavior around the lynch day 1 where he didn't vote JX but rather put Hus vote on VE and used his 'case' as an excuse to not comment on the actual lynch. He should die today.
##Vote Snarfs
As for other reads, obviously I think jay is an acceptable alternative lynch candidate. I defended him early day 1 but since then he's done very little, which is more in line with how I view his scum meta. When he's town he at least cares enough to post his thoughts, but this game he's not even doing that anymore and is probably mafia for it.
Phagga is scummy, as others have outlined. I don't see him as red as I do snarfs or jay, but he's on my radar. If I was making a hypothetical scum team, I'd say the fourth might be Oats. In the past day his activity has dropped off a cliff and I don't know what his reads in the game are anymore. He seems to be sticking to his guns from day 1 but has no new information to support his reads and hasn't been very active in the game.
For town reads, Mocsta and Sloosh look really town to me, mostly from their play while under the gun. I'm more confident on Mocsta than Sloosh, but I would defend either one's towniness. VE and prplhz are also both town to me, despite other player's suspicions of them. If I need to defend them today, I will, because neither show scum traits to me at all.
Cheesecake, you asked for my read on you. You lean town to me, but you're real blendy and not at all confrontational like I think town CC is. I suppose you haven't been accused seriously yet, but you also aren't going out of your way to pressure your reads like I think town CC usually does. You're more null than I expected at this point in the game.
If you guys think I'm mafia for serious, come at me, but neither case from yesterday is at all good. I've been the towniest yamato of all time. Bring the cases on. ##Vote Yamato Then, there's jay's refusal to lynch snarfs. + Show Spoiler +On February 12 2013 13:23 jaybrundage wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 13:14 yamato77 wrote:
I don't care if you don't want to lynch Snarfs. You want to lynch me,1 which means you're an idiot.
Palmar did play bad this game. I have no problem saying that. Just because he flipped town doesn't suddenly mean his reads are 100% correct. I happen to know they aren't.
So what are you doing to do tomorrow when I flip town and mafia puts up three more town players and then it's mylo, huh? Go around sheeping Palmar's reads then? How is that productive for town?
Your case is just an extension of his, which I already addressed. I've addressed all of the main points I could find against me. If you don't believe me, 2 I don't care, because right now I really don't even want to play in this game. People aren't even reading my posts. 1 Hey last game I was scum I used attacks on Bugs to rile him up and make him not think clearly. Nicely done. 2 Stop using emotional bullshit to try to pull out a response from people. Also you refuse to find a second candidate. WTF is this? If your town then start looking. Snarfs is not gonna be killed today. I have said this like three times and you refuse to answer. WHAT'S YOUR SECOND SCUM READ What was his reasoning for not lynching snarfs??????? + Show Spoiler +On February 12 2013 11:56 jaybrundage wrote:Snarfs: I thought snarfs was scummy for a bit. But with my change of read on VE and the way snarf was pushing VE since day 1 I have come around on him also the fact that the people who are voting him are in my scum team makes it so I think that he's a mislynch that scum is pushing. My last comment on him was to many scum want him dead and its true alot of scummy people are pushing him as a mislynch. Yamato is still a scum candidate. I'll give more thoughts on him later. I want to see his posting and what he plans to do because so far its been jack shit. The reasons you stated are the exact reasons they are probably scum. CC has sat under the radar. He hasn't been pressured and he hasn't done anything. His flipflop on yamato is also scummy as hell. Oats as well he started off decent too many people gave him a pass on his conversation with you. Since then he hasn't contributed to the town at all. Show nested quote +Mocsta said
Mr. CC: I am finding is blendy as; but has sat under radar enough for me to keep forgetting to read his filter.
Oats: Is tough. middle of day 1, i had him as confirmed town. As the game has gone on, he has contributed less and less; BUT, I am willing to think of this as related to Chinese New year. If Oats is scum, I am willing to consider him as last prioirty to lynch. You like that logical fallacy thing eh. Well ill use it against you.  Show nested quote +Mocsta said Also Jay, I think its great to use Palmar reads as a guide; but you need to show more of your own thought. e.g. phagga being cleared because Palmar had a doubt, is not good enough in my opinion. If we want a good town environment, we need to be able to discuss pros/cons of participants; quoting "palmar said so" is actually http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-authority and needs to stop. Show nested quote +appeal to authority You said that because an authority thinks something, it must therefore be true.It's important to note that this fallacy should not be used to dismiss the claims of experts, or scientific consensus. Appeals to authority are not valid arguments, but nor is it reasonable to disregard the claims of experts who have a demonstrated depth of knowledge unless one has a similar level of understanding and/or access to empirical evidence. However it is, entirely possible that the opinion of a person or institution of authority is wrong; therefore the authority that such a person or institution holds does not have any intrinsic bearing upon whether their claims are true or not. That guy Palmar... Ill give ya a secret
He's an expert Also just so you note. Oats was on Palmars town list. I do take his reads seriously but I don't mind branching out either. Was his town read on snarfs based on analysis of snarfs play? Hell no. It was an association, based on no flips, based on a couple votes on snarfs. WHY DID JAY NOT MENTION ANALYSIS OF SNARFS PLAY IF HE HAS SUCH A STRONG READ ON HIMIf jay was town, Why can't someone whos town have faulty reasoning? he would defend snarfs based on analysis of snarfs play, not some "oh, i think these guys are scum and voting this other guys even though i have no analysis on the guy they are voting". It was faulty reasoning granted but you can have faulty reasoning and still be townOats, Ctrl F jay's filter for snarfs. You will see what i mean
Also If i was Snarf's teammate I would of bussed him reallly realllly hard. I think that bussing is a tatic in mafia that people are hesitant to abuse. I would of bussed Snarfs sooo hard if i was mafia it would of not even been funny
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On February 20 2013 10:31 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
Jay, you're prolly town. that last post just seemed kinda weirdly timed. still, its a wagon of justice. and i like that you're on it. There still lingers a possibility that you both are scum, so any buddying of me will get you nowhere. im paranoid of you jay, to say the least. i really hope you are town and im not fucking it up
Who are you referring too besides me?
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phagga and you, jay. but i think you being town ties up so many loose ends. its just in the back of my mind, is all.
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regardless, phagga is scum. i cant put a team together without him involved in some way. debears almost certainly with him
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Hm Im hesitant on who to kill. I decided to change it up. And I don't wanna kill Mr.CC. I want people that agree with my reads.
The problem is that Yamato wants to kill VE (good) but also wants to kill me (bad)
Also SlOosh doesn't want to kill VE (bad) and I forgot his stance on me but i think he wants to kill me (bad) but not as badly as Yamato
He had me right as town at first. But prplhz dying messed up his read.
SlOosh look at the case on VE and see what ya think.
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@CC if we can convince Oats and crew. We should be able to win this easily. Open and shut case.
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Yeah. Seriously if you're scum jay fuck you.
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On February 20 2013 10:50 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
Yeah. Seriously if you're scum jay fuck you.
lol you really are paranoid. Dont worry I was paranoid of you too that you bussed your team. But you defense of me made me see the light. Like legit when i play this scummy all the scum pile on top of me for the easy lynch. The few people that defend me cause they know my meta are almost always townies.
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On February 20 2013 10:24 jaybrundage wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2013 10:16 debears wrote:
Cheesecake
The fuck?
If you looks like scum, sounds like scum, and votes like scum, it is scum.
Jay is scum. If you think not, THEN FUCKING COUNTER MY PREVIOUS CASES AGAINST HIM. But what if its my town meta too look like scum. But regardless your scum this game. So no use talking about it.
Yes because that totally clears anyone in mafia. Now you are just reaching for defenses because you know you are caught
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Debears, i dont think he is scum right now. what say you to phagga scum?
Jay isnt caught. hes just... in a bind. lol.
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On February 20 2013 12:08 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
Debears, i dont think he is scum right now. what say you to phagga scum?
Jay isnt caught. hes just... in a bind. lol.
There is no way in hell im lynching phagga over jay
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11589 Posts
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cus phagga is 100% scum. so dibbers why shouldnt we lynch phagga?
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11589 Posts
I'm less sold on phagga than VE.
I actually want to die today, because I think it will help VE die tomorrow.
I'm in the process of making a detailed case proving his mafia agenda play today.
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Why Phagga is town
He seems intent on finding scum,
Especially this post
On February 08 2013 01:29 phagga wrote:Show nested quote +
On February 08 2013 01:25 Snarfs wrote:
Okay, I'm caught up give me another little bit to get to my computer and I'll do up that case on VE.
I don't think prplhz is a good lynch. Normally when prplhz is town I feel like he's scummy and right now I feel like he's scummy so he's probably town. Last time we played together we were both scum and he was a lot more tunnely. Last time I was town I tried to lynch him because he gives off this just blending in vibe that I picked up this game from his first couple of posts - my immediate reaction was to agree with Palmar that he's scum, but I double checked these last two games I'm talking about and this seems much more in line with town prplhz.
tl;dr you think this is his town meta, right? What do you think is scummy about prplhz? Can you reference the two games you are talking about?
These are pretty good questions and I dont think they are from the same alignment.
On February 08 2013 02:34 phagga wrote:
At everyone voting Palmar so far, go have a look at Death note Mafia (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=363625). Palmar was trolly/lurkish D1 and was misslynched D1 with the exact same arguments as this game. I know He could be scum, but I feel that lynch is much more volatile than JX, of who I feel sure he will flip scum.
Also, as scum, he could try and push the Palmar mislynch, VE is behind it too and me at this point I think, or I just switched off. I dont see why he would do this as scum basically. But as town, you would want to prevent a good player mislynch especially when you think that player is town.
On February 11 2013 06:43 phagga wrote:Show nested quote +
On February 10 2013 15:46 yamato77 wrote:
And to think I softdefended this guy day 1.
Jesus.
What is the purpose of this post, Yamato? Let me answer that for you: You want to distance yourself from the guy that is being perceived as scum by several townie players. But why do you have to do that? Because you're scum. If you were town, you wouldn't care enough about the fact that you softdefended me D1 to post about it. Show nested quote +
On February 10 2013 17:04 yamato77 wrote:
I will say this, I am sitting on my reads today on purpose. You guys know what I think about who dies today, and that's enough for the time being. Tomorrow I'll update all of you on my reads, which have changed some since yesterday, but not significantly. More importantly, I've become more confident in them, and have some more evidence, which I will share at a later date if it hasn't already been covered.
I don't think it's any stretch to say everyone should be on board with killing Palmar today. Sloosh is townier by a mile and Palmar is obviously not even playing the game, so he should just die. If he's town, oh well, someone has to die, and he's admitted to us that he's going to do nothing. If he's mafia then his team is retarded, or he's too cocky for his own good.
One thing I will say today is that I don't think VE is mafia at the moment. Drunk VE was very town last night. <3 drunk VE.
I asked you for your reads, and this is your response? I can see no reason why you should not give your reads out now, since you are allegedly finished analysing them and have "become more confident in them". That is unless you are scum. Also, I asked you why you think I'm scum, would you please answer that? Who are your scum reads and why?
I really like this post by phagga, it attacks yamato, and reinforces his earlier read. It doesnt look speculative like scum would just try to poke and prod, or sit on the scum read.
His reads also change and I like that. Because as scum, you are afraid of changing your mind but as town, who cares.
On February 15 2013 18:52 phagga wrote:Guys, I got an even better idea, Let's actually read Palmars post before we blindly sheep him :D Show nested quote +
On February 10 2013 21:57 Palmar wrote:
I think you guys should lynch a few people, but should I flip I want you guys to not forget that however good you think my scumreads are, any mediocre player with updated reads is more valuable than a dead great player with his old reads. Not to mention I'm not invested far enough into this game to actually consider my reads worth too much.
I like how he took the effort to find the post instead of discrediting me or just sheeping along. IMO, this is the biggest towntell in his filter :D
Overall, I think that phagga is town.
CC, saying that jay is scum JUST cause you cant find scumbuddies is INCREDIBLY WRONG. You have no content saying that he isnt scum just, HERP DERP he doesnt look linked to anyone.
Also the rest of your scum reads are cause they gave Phagga town reads. Phagga HASENT EVEN FLIPPED YET.
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yes, thankyou oats for a reasonable post
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On February 20 2013 13:03 Oatsmaster wrote:Why Phagga is town He seems intent on finding scum, Especially this post Show nested quote +On February 08 2013 01:29 phagga wrote:
On February 08 2013 01:25 Snarfs wrote:
Okay, I'm caught up give me another little bit to get to my computer and I'll do up that case on VE.
I don't think prplhz is a good lynch. Normally when prplhz is town I feel like he's scummy and right now I feel like he's scummy so he's probably town. Last time we played together we were both scum and he was a lot more tunnely. Last time I was town I tried to lynch him because he gives off this just blending in vibe that I picked up this game from his first couple of posts - my immediate reaction was to agree with Palmar that he's scum, but I double checked these last two games I'm talking about and this seems much more in line with town prplhz.
tl;dr you think this is his town meta, right? What do you think is scummy about prplhz? Can you reference the two games you are talking about? These are pretty good questions and I dont think they are from the same alignment. Show nested quote + On February 08 2013 02:34 phagga wrote:
At everyone voting Palmar so far, go have a look at Death note Mafia (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=363625). Palmar was trolly/lurkish D1 and was misslynched D1 with the exact same arguments as this game. I know He could be scum, but I feel that lynch is much more volatile than JX, of who I feel sure he will flip scum.
Also, as scum, he could try and push the Palmar mislynch, VE is behind it too and me at this point I think, or I just switched off. I dont see why he would do this as scum basically. But as town, you would want to prevent a good player mislynch especially when you think that player is town. Show nested quote +On February 11 2013 06:43 phagga wrote:
On February 10 2013 15:46 yamato77 wrote:
And to think I softdefended this guy day 1.
Jesus.
What is the purpose of this post, Yamato? Let me answer that for you: You want to distance yourself from the guy that is being perceived as scum by several townie players. But why do you have to do that? Because you're scum. If you were town, you wouldn't care enough about the fact that you softdefended me D1 to post about it.
On February 10 2013 17:04 yamato77 wrote:
I will say this, I am sitting on my reads today on purpose. You guys know what I think about who dies today, and that's enough for the time being. Tomorrow I'll update all of you on my reads, which have changed some since yesterday, but not significantly. More importantly, I've become more confident in them, and have some more evidence, which I will share at a later date if it hasn't already been covered.
I don't think it's any stretch to say everyone should be on board with killing Palmar today. Sloosh is townier by a mile and Palmar is obviously not even playing the game, so he should just die. If he's town, oh well, someone has to die, and he's admitted to us that he's going to do nothing. If he's mafia then his team is retarded, or he's too cocky for his own good.
One thing I will say today is that I don't think VE is mafia at the moment. Drunk VE was very town last night. <3 drunk VE.
I asked you for your reads, and this is your response? I can see no reason why you should not give your reads out now, since you are allegedly finished analysing them and have "become more confident in them". That is unless you are scum. Also, I asked you why you think I'm scum, would you please answer that? Who are your scum reads and why? I really like this post by phagga, it attacks yamato, and reinforces his earlier read. It doesnt look speculative like scum would just try to poke and prod, or sit on the scum read. His reads also change and I like that. Because as scum, you are afraid of changing your mind but as town, who cares. Show nested quote +
On February 15 2013 18:52 phagga wrote:Guys, I got an even better idea, Let's actually read Palmars post before we blindly sheep him :D
On February 10 2013 21:57 Palmar wrote:
I think you guys should lynch a few people, but should I flip I want you guys to not forget that however good you think my scumreads are, any mediocre player with updated reads is more valuable than a dead great player with his old reads. Not to mention I'm not invested far enough into this game to actually consider my reads worth too much.
I like how he took the effort to find the post instead of discrediting me or just sheeping along. IMO, this is the biggest towntell in his filter :D Overall, I think that phagga is town. CC, saying that jay is scum JUST cause you cant find scumbuddies is INCREDIBLY WRONG. You have no content saying that he isnt scum just, HERP DERP he doesnt look linked to anyone.
Also the rest of your scum reads are cause they gave Phagga town reads. Phagga HASENT EVEN FLIPPED YET.
Namely that part
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11589 Posts
TAKING THE VISCERAEYES CHALLENGE
On February 20 2013 06:38 VisceraEyes wrote:
That should read "from D1" but it doesn't even matter. I admit that I was just as, if not more interested in a prplhz lynch. But you can't just dismiss the fact that I was among the only voices suspicious of Snarfs right up to the point where he was made a serious candidate - whether it was me who made him a valid candidate is obviously up for debate, but you can't say I did nothing to get him lynched Yamato. Now you are the one who is lying.
##Vote: yamato77
On February 20 2013 06:38 VisceraEyes wrote:
But you can't just dismiss the fact that I was among the only voices suspicious of Snarfs right up to the point where he was made a serious candidate - whether it was me who made him a valid candidate is obviously up for debate, but you can't say I did nothing to get him lynched Yamato. Now you are the one who is lying.
On February 20 2013 06:38 VisceraEyes wrote:
whether it was me who made him a valid candidate is obviously up for debate
On February 20 2013 06:38 VisceraEyes wrote:
up for debate
CHALLENGE ACCEPTED
On February 07 2013 09:35 VisceraEyes wrote:I think Snarfs might well be scum. So here's a little push in his direction, care of the guy who isn't pushing anyone. First of all, something I noticed last night. Show nested quote +On February 06 2013 14:25 Snarfs wrote:On February 06 2013 11:58 Oatsmaster wrote:
Also, WHERE DID YOU GO VE? Hmm, disappear while two other players start shitting up the thread? Congrats VE, you're already #1 on my list. ##vote VisceraEyesAs far as the voting mechanics go, it really is a ton of WIFOm. You're both saying the same thing in different ways. Yes, we lynch scum and we need to not look scummy. Yes, scum is going to try to trick us into debating ad infinitum about the composition of their nominations. That pretty much ends the discussion, doesn't it? Look very closely at everything the nominees say and lynch the scum. No need to over complicate it. If it comes down to multiple people contributing well to town, we can discuss it then. Here we see Snarfs' first vote on me. He's convinced of my alignment based on the fact that I left the thread "when two other players start shitting up the thread". But...why? Why is that indicative of me being scum? The only way that makes sense is if he is assuming that Oats and Mocsta are both town...and this is a conclusion he couldn't have already come to at this point in the game. This alone isn't really enough for me to call him scum, but then we see how he pushes me after this: Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 06:08 Snarfs wrote:
Just to let Cheese and everyone else know, I am here and reading along with the thread. I have class for another hour and then I'm heading home so I will be able to respond and properly formulate my thoughts then.
As a preview though, I'm still getting a bad vibe from VE. It's a feeling right now but I wouldn't mind more people looking at him closely and just really asking if he's trying to find scum. Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 08:44 Snarfs wrote:
All right, so here are my thoughts:
1) On VE:
My vote on VE was initially because of exactly what I said - of the three people that came into the conversation, he was the quickest to abandon it when things got heated. Now, he claims that he was commuting and I can't exactly dispute that.
But since then, I've had no reason to move my vote off of him. Look at the way he's saying things. Who is he even pressuring? Read through his filter and try to figure out who he's pushing. Palmar!? We're not lynching Palmar day 1, why waste time? As for the other people VE is "pressuring", there's no vindication. Phagga? Nope. yamato? Maybe, I can't really tell. When VE is town, he pushes people. He pushes them hard to determine their alignment and it's obvious he's pushing people. I think this is scum VE.
**snip** Anything new in there? Just a weak-ass meta read based on 24 hours of D1. But he asked for others' opinions TWICE in those two posts. We have players who haven't said fuck all. He's saying we can't lynch Palmar today...why? Why the fuck not? He's not doing shit. But he wants to lynch me? Based on what? A weak ass meta read and an absence I've explained? It's cognitive dissonance. Why would he be against lynching Palmar D1 and not against lynching VE D1 for the same reason? I mean, okay if he thinks Palmar is better for town than me assuming we're both town, that's one thing...but he doesn't say as much. He simply shuts down the Palmar lynch for no reason...when no one is even voting for Palmar but me. Now I'm at a crossroads. I want to kill Palmar with the holy fire of righeousness. But I also want Snarfs to hang. I want others' opinions of this, because at this point I could go either way. Kill the scummy lurker who doesn't give a shit, or kill the scummy active participant? Right now I'm leaning lynching Palmar, but if there's more support for a Snarfs lynch I'm all over that shit.
I'll give you this one VE, you made a case on him early day 1. But did you really try to get him lynched? No. Sandwiching this post are these two:
On February 07 2013 08:29 VisceraEyes wrote:
Why aren't you doing shit? You can't be scared of NKs, it's like you don't give a fuck. And in my experience a Palmar that doesn't give a fuck is a scum Palmar...and I hate scum. I FUCKING HATE SCUM PALMAR
On February 07 2013 13:53 VisceraEyes wrote:
I'm back and reading. Are we lynching Palmar yet?
Again, what are you doing today? Trying to get Palmar lynched. Not Snarfs, Palmar. The guy who flipped town. The guy you've inevitably played quite a few games with. The guy you know to fuck off entire games at times, even when town. BUT OKAY, okay, I get it. I read him as scum too. It's okay. I'm not just lynching you for this.
On February 07 2013 17:58 VisceraEyes wrote:
Okay, I've read the whole thread again. First of all, where the fuck is prplhz and why isn't anyone else curious? He has literally 4 in game posts and while he appears to be interested in "thread atmosphere", I just have no idea who he thinks is scum.
Djo bringing back up the whole Oats/Mocsta thing is just...confusing. What's the point? I'm not even sure what he's accusing Mocsta of in the first place. @Djo What exactly is your problem with Mocsta? It's like you're suspicious of him because he didn't join your random lynch (which you say that you didn't even really like).
As I said earlier, I'm very very interested in clearing out the trash, being players who signed up and aren't playing. Right now that list is:
Palmar
prplhz
Snarfs
JX
There's no way in hell they're all scum. Here's what I want to do. I think everyone should choose one name off that list that they believe is the most realistic lynch candidate based on what they perceive to be town sentiment. Then I want them to explain why they aren't voting for that person, and explain in detail why their lynch candidate is better.
Know this. GM made it clear in the OP that lurkers will ruin this game. You don't even have to take my word for it, it's right in the OP. The worst thing townies can do in this setup is lurk. Therefor, I don't want to lynch someone active today. We can start lynching into active posters with more flip information.
I think prplhz is the most realistic lynch candidate, and I'll tell you why (though you probably won't like it.)
Palmar apparently wants to lynch prplhz.
Is that fucked up or what? But it's true. If Palmar comes back in here and says "Yeah I still want to lynch prplhz" then I believe that prplhz will get lynched. In spite of fucking off for the entire game, Palmar has more say over who gets lynched than I do. But I'm not bitter - all is not lost you see. For I can also get down on a prplhz lynch. I'd still do somersaults over a Palmar lynch or Snarfs lynch, but honestly I just don't think I can make it happen today.
____________________________________________________________________
On the active posters:
I'd like to see more from slOosh. Him backing out of his yamato read, while admirable I guess, leaves me wondering just who he thinks is scum. He mentioned phagga as a means of determining prplhz' alignment...somehow? But made it clear that he wasn't really a scumread. Ultimately he wants it to be clear that he's not doing nothing, which generally sets off red flags for me. He started out as a super townread too, which is why this is concerning for me.
@slOosh
You say "let's work with what we've got". I've got a case on Snarfs that you haven't commented on. I've got a lurker policy that I'd like you to consider. I'd really like to hear who you think is scum.
yamato is on my to-do list tomorrow morning. So is Cheesecake. I'm going to bed now.
##Unvote: Palmar
##Vote: prplhz
Another post fingering Snarfs as mafia. BUT WAIT, LOOK AT THAT LIST AND VOTE AGAIN:
On February 07 2013 17:58 VisceraEyes wrote:
As I said earlier, I'm very very interested in clearing out the trash, being players who signed up and aren't playing. Right now that list is:
Palmar
prplhz
Snarfs
JX
##Unvote: Palmar
##Vote: prplhz
Holy shit, that's a ridiculously terrible looking list. Also, notice it contains all of the people that were real contenders for the lynch day 1, grouped wholly as "lurkers". Wow. Lurker lynching. VE isn't even trying.
Also note that his "case" is on Snarfs, but his vote goes elsewhere. All the time. I'll continue to show instances of this throughout his play, day 1 and day 3, but first I'm going to figure out where his vote went day 1 and why, because as I said in LVIII, the only alignment indicative thing these good mafia players do is lynch people. And make no mistake, VE lynches town REAL GOOD.
On February 08 2013 03:02 VisceraEyes wrote:
Still no quotes from this game explaining your viewpoint. Just vague meta references and now you're throwing in non-alignment indicative bullshit.
##Unvote: prplhz
##Vote: Snarfs
WOOOWOOOOOOOOO This is the lynch guys, all aboard.
Here's an instance to refute my idea of VE's relationship with Snarfs. It's not a very good one, however, simply because of how weakly this plays out. Not even half an hour later:
On February 08 2013 03:33 VisceraEyes wrote:
I'm willing to consolidate onto JX.
Wow. NEXT:
On February 08 2013 05:12 VisceraEyes wrote:
I AM WILLING TO BET MY LIFE THAT PALMAR IS MAFIA.
I'll admit, this is put in here just to make him look bad. Carry on.
On February 08 2013 05:36 VisceraEyes wrote:
The JX wagon popped up quick. FAST quick. I mean, this is like the end of the phase really with people going to bed.
HERE WE GO. An absurd defense of JX, out of nowhere. Is this lynch derailing at its finest? Is VE really going to help town get off another town player and lynch the mafia he proclaims from the rooftops?
On February 08 2013 06:52 VisceraEyes wrote:
##Unvote: Snarfs
##Vote: JieXian
It's still true - it was just an observation. I wouldn't say he's been discussed "all day"...he doesn't even have enough content to warrant all-day discussion. And his resurgence into the thread when the threat of lynch is real certainly doesn't speak well for him either.
Nope. He won't even take responsibility for pushing any agenda. He'll just blend the fuck in, right with this vote. Don't do anything to take any real stance, or even justify your vote more than calling him a "lurker". Good stuff.
On February 08 2013 07:40 VisceraEyes wrote:
Look it's fine - I'm voting for JX see? I'm not anxious to get rid of Palmar. I just think he has the highest chance of flipping scum.
This, in retrospect, is a slip of the mindset I just talked about. VE has zero balls this game. He has no conviction in his reads, he's just going along with what town wants to do. It's pathetically scummy. Town VE does not mindlessly sheep. If town VE thought Palmar was scum, he would do something, but yet VE did basically to push his reads, at all.
That's basically the summary of VE's play day 1. Call people mafia, don't push them, and sheep town's thinking. I'm ignoring day 2 because all of the stuff he wrote about was about town players, in all likelihood. So on to day 3:
QUOTE]On February 12 2013 05:04 VisceraEyes wrote:
I don't know what you want from me. I have been looking for scum. I am reading both Snarfs and prplhz as scum. I have tried to show you why I think so. I fully admit to dropping the ball yesterday but real life kicked my ass. slOosh you haven't engaged me about my reads either Bro and now you seem so sure of yourself that you aren't even willing to listen. Do you understand how that attitude is COUNTERPRODUCTIVE to getting me to prove my innocence? Why should I even care to try?
##Vote Snarfs
Because prplhz just wrote a case and I will read it before I moving forward. [/QUOTE]
The only thing interesting is the vote, which isn't even the focus of this post. It's his defense of himself, which is overwhelmingly sad. "I've been looking for scum". Oh, you mean lurker lynching? Gotcha.
On February 12 2013 08:59 VisceraEyes wrote:
Okay, I'm starting to get a sense of what's going on here.
slOosh is Mafia
He keeps insisting that I'm not doing shit. He keeps insisting that I am not scumhunting. He conveniently leaves out the fact that I have not one, but TWO scum suspects whom I have made cases on and pushed for lynch at various points in the game...suspects that I continue to believe in today. Because I believed that the nominations would be all town, I wrote slOosh off as town as soon as the nominations were posted...in spite of red flags being raised when he was certain he would be put up for nomination. Now he's got this fail crusade against me. But he's accusing me of shit that he's just as, if not more, guilty of. He disappeared during D1 when the important shit was going down. And now he's in a unique position of being "soft-confirmed" town. What's he do with it? Continue to ignore everything his "scum suspect" says. If he really thinks I'm scum, why isn't he trying to catch me by making me explain my reads more thoroughly? Because in the name of consistency, he has to pretend they don't exist.. Otherwise he has no fucking case on me. I've been racking my brain trying to figure out a townie motivation for pretending my scumreads don't exist, and aside from "maybe he really thinks I'm town and is trying to infuriate me to confirm his read on me" I can't think of a single one...and that one doesn't make any fucking sense because if he's town and he's wasting all that time on trying to cement a TOWN read on me, he's doing something horribly horribly wrong...therefor, I conclude that he has to be scum.
prplhz is Mafia
Palmar knew it, I ignored it, now I gotta do something about it. prplhz did nothing over the course of D1 aside from ask Djodref about RNG, tell Mocsta and Oats to stop yelling at each other, and ask people over and over what they think about his "case" on jaybrundage. I put case in quotations there because his case is basically "he feels a little elusive and mild and *shrug*" but apparently that's enough for prplhz. What I find interesting about that is he claims he had no strong scum suspects D1...but apparently I haven't been doing shit all game right? Why wasn't I a suspect to prplhz? Oh that's right, at the end of D1 when the shit was uncertain surrounding the lynch, that is when all of a sudden prplhz would lynch VE over JX. Which begs the question: why didn't he raise me as a lynch candidate before then? If he was opposed to the JX lynch, why didn't he offer me up sooner than a couple hours before the lynch?
prplhz is my strongest read by far and I prefer a prplhz lynch today.
Snarfs is Mafia
Snarfs has rubbed me the wrong way all game. His initial case on me was so bad that it got my attention, and the way he pushed it (or NOT pushed it more accurately) felt scummy all game long. He continues to do nothing, which kinda makes me a little queasy, but overall he's firmly in the red for me. If I can't get a prplhz lynch today, I would lynch Snarfs.
##Unvote
##Vote: prplhz
Here is another example of VE fingering Snarfs as mafia, talking about lynching him, and then pushing a DIFFERENT AGENDA. He's not attempting to get Snarfs lynched, he's just putting feelers out there. Look at the last sentence again:
If I can't get a prplhz lynch today, I would lynch Snarfs.
This is day 3, and his agenda is a mafia one. He'll ACQUIESCE to lynching mafia, but he really wants to lynch town.
On February 12 2013 18:21 VisceraEyes wrote:
And actually before I go
##Unvote
##Vote Snarfs
Oats I think Snarfs more likely today...but if that changes I SWEAR I'll be back. My vote is on prolhz in spirit.
Again, this is VE's mindset showing through and through. He's not trying to get Snarfs lynched for real, but hey, if it happens it's all kinds of cool town cred for him since he's offhandedly called him scum the whole game, and vice-versa. But again, who does he really want to lynch? It's right there, at the end: PRPLHZ, A TOWNIE. NOT SNARFS, THE MAFIA.
But okay, I get it. Townies are wrong all the time. What is so bad about VE being wrong THE WHOLE FUCKING GAME, EVEN THOUGH HE SHOULD KNOW BETTER? Well, he's taken zero responsibility for anything he's done this game + Show Spoiler [Another Example] +On February 13 2013 08:52 VisceraEyes wrote:
At the time of the post in question (my switch from Palmar to prplhz) I wasn't convinced of Palmar being ACTUAL scum. That didn't come until he came back into the thread and confirmed, some more, that he wouldn't be doing shit.
At the time of the post in question, it was simply a choice between two lurkers. And as I explained in my post, if Palmar had delurked and said "yeah guys go prplhz" I think that prplhz might have gotten lynched. That observation transcended alignment - I believe that would have happened if Palmar were scum OR town. It was an observation of the typical gamestate here on TL: blind faith in the Leader.
Because of that, it didn't matter to me whether Palmar delurked as scum and did that because based on the actions prplhz had taken up to that point (read: soft push on jay and vague "pro-town tidbits") I decided that I was okay with a prplhz lynch. Palmar had shown no interest in Snarfs or I would have voted Snarfs instead - Palmar had only up to that point expressed a desire to kill prplhz.
On February 13 2013 11:12 VisceraEyes wrote:
FUCK YES
Debears better fucking bring the thunder...I thought Djodref was town before, but the silence surrounding the lynch indicates to me that a) scum had no problem lynching Snarfs or b) scum couldn't do anything to prevent it. I'm looking hard at debears as of this moment.
This I think is obviously true, and something that is the crux of why mafia VE and mafia Snarfs were double-bussing the whole game. To explain why, we're going to travel back in time through VE's filter and look at a particular post he made, speculating the setup.
On February 09 2013 03:52 VisceraEyes wrote:
Like I said, if even one scum dies, the game is increased by a day forcing another nomination.
The nomination phases are going to be good for us because they'll leave us a pattern to follow. Not that we should automatically assume that only townies will be nominated, this is not what I'm saying. But I'd be surprised if more than, say, one scum is ever nominated at a time. As a result we can start narrowing down who is scum BASED on the nomination phases. Scum will likely want as few nomination phases as possible.
I'm not trying to push this as what will happen. I'm providing my own opinion of how this mechanic is going to play out.
I'll be in and out over the course of the day. In a non-perverted sort of way.
Here he explains the most likely nomination mechanic, and one we can now nearly modconfirm to be true. Scum are putting up townies and killing them off, using the Nomination mechanic as a replacement NK of sorts and a day in which nothing for town is accomplished at all. It's good mafia play, because it denies town a ton of information, and wastes valuable time while resulting in a dead townie 100% percent of the time.
But it only works so long. How long? Until three mafia die. If that happens, Mafia lose complete control over the nominations at some point, if they're going to be able to win. Nominations are three people, and with two or more alive, they can get to mylo/lylo A WHOLE DAY FASTER by playing this way. So if you lose one member, it really doesn't do much but prolong the game, which is admittedly bad for mafia but not THE END. Two members, you start to get shaky. Three members and you have to play GODLIKE.
The point of that is this: mafia bussing in this game means less than it does in a regular game. It might actually be advantageous, because the town cred you gain for being in on a mafia lynch from early on is pretty huge, especially given that there are no NK's. But it certainly isn't too damaging, as long as at least two of your members stay alive. As long as this happens, mafia have a gigantic advantage over town in the continual denial of information through the mafia-controlled lynches.
To me, this basically kills any sort of town read I had on VE because of what happened day 3. Looking at his filter from an objective point of view, it's very obvious what he's been doing this game, and why. It's spelled out in bits and pieces, you just have to look for them.
I don't care if I die today or if Sloosh dies. If you kill me, you can see what I've written as modconfirmed town and lynch VE based off it and get us one step closer to winning the game. If we kill Sloosh and keep me alive, I'll make sure to get VE lynched tomorrow and we'll have the information advantage of knowing exactly what mafia planned with the nominations from the very start and can make more intelligent reads based on this, and perhaps even force them out of the pattern.
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Without looking, can you tell me what phagga's town reads / scum reads are?
The answer is, probably not (even if I check his filter it's kinda hard).
@Oats
- Snarfs also defended a Palmar lynch D1,
- As scum you also fear going against the flow. Aka, his backing off of VE and yamato cases when they weren't getting support.
- The posts you quote are almost a week old. What new content has he produced? Does it look like he has any scum reads, or does it look like he is making them as he goes along?
In the process of a full reread (yes another one). Will post up huge thoughts hopefully within a couple hours time.
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SLOOSH
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