EPTWitchcraft Mini Mafia
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DoYouHas
United States1140 Posts
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DoYouHas
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I don't think I have time to play this properly, sorry. | ||
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DoYouHas
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I haven't paid much attention to the thread since I /out, so I need to go over the setup again. MrZ, I really hope you are less enigmatic than you were in paranoia. Your lack of explanation for your actions was annoying, but it didn't matter since you were clearly discussing with BH and you were town. | ||
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DoYouHas
United States1140 Posts
On December 15 2012 06:21 Hapahauli wrote: FIRST! (jkjk) I'm going to have to make some larger policy-post regarding game mechanics in a bit. But how y'all doing? I'm interested in this. What policies are you looking to advocate? aside from the one I just mentioned above, I didn't see any kind of setup specific policies that make sense. | ||
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DoYouHas
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##Vote JieXian @Hapa/DP/Thrawn/Draz - You all went after Djo for his post saying we shouldn't share townreads. This concerns me because I made a very similar post before his and caught absolutely no flak for it. Even putting aside that he is right that sharing town reads is a bad idea with few exceptions (see below), this means that you all treated the same policy stance in 2 different ways. Did you overlook that I had taken the same stance? Or were you just looking for another reason to go after Djo? Exceptions 1. Someone you have a townread on is getting votes/going to be lynched. 2. You have sufficiently narrowed down the possible scum with strong town reads. 3. Your townread is a supporting assumption to your scum read that you are pushing. There are good reasons to share town reads, but there aren't many, and you can absolutely scumhunt without sharing them outside these exceptions. Most people do. | ||
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DoYouHas
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On December 15 2012 17:37 DarthPunk wrote: this is fucking stupid. The mafia know who to shoot into already. They know who the townies are. They have an information advantage that they wish to maintain for as long as possible. Town wishes to nullify that information advantage as fast as possible. One of the most effective ways of doing that is by being proactive and sharing town reads. I will be free and open with my town reads. I will be electing bad townies however. If I had a town read on HAPA he would never be elected for example. You are being dumb. The mafia know who the townies are, they do not know who will be receiving votes. Townreads give information to scum that they didn't have, period. Knowing who townies are and knowing who townies think are townie are 2 very separate things. This isn't about playing in fear of the witch hunter, this is about playing smart. Giving mafia information is not smart. This is the second time you have made this kind of statement. It is as if you are treating the mafia kp and the witchhunter as the same thing. You are addressing the mafia kp, when the witch hunter is the issue. So what if you manage to elect bad townies if the mafia just shoot the good townies and silver shoot the bad ones. The point is this, we can maximize the possibility that the witch hunter misses by denying scum information that we really don't need to share anyways. Maybe we are thinking about different examples of 'free and open with town reads'. I'm thinking of lists of townies being posted like Xatalos did in paranoia, which was bad. | ||
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DoYouHas
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DoYouHas
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I'm feeling more comfortable with my vote on JX right now. His initial post was rather scummy, the thing to note about it is that it looks constructed (the phrases used when talking about hapa and MrZ, "mindless babbling" & "relative non-chalance". What makes me think he is scum is the progression of his pushing MrZ. A behavior read. On December 15 2012 14:47 JieXian wrote: Hi and sorry I'm late, I'm at +8GMT and I didn't wake up as early as DarthPunk At first I was really confused (scummy read) about hapa's mindless babbling about 13-3, which ISN'T RELEVANT to anything at all because you can't change anything except stir the discussion towards the wrong direction. Later I got a stronger read from DP from his ridiculous "pressuring" above all for a point that's completely moot But above all there's Mr Zentor's relative non-chalance to everything seems to trump everything else as doesn't seem to give a damn to anything as townies are well on their way to lynching one another ##Vote MrZentor An unsupported meta read with some WIFOM. On December 16 2012 01:06 JieXian wrote: I was out the whole day man relax. You guys didn't understand my post. I found what Dp and hapa was saying to be weird BUT I changed my mind as I kept on reading the thread (notice how those 2 points were quite early on) Based on MrZentor's "uselessness" as you guys termed it, my meta read on him shows that he's acting differently but most of all, if he were scum, he'd have nothing else to do but sit and watch because dp and hapa were in the spotlight and not take any blame. Meaning he doesn't need to participate and make/risk any reads. I mean take a look at everyone else that's posting, they are all reads (be it weak or strong or sheep reads) Finally providing support for his meta read. Not conclusive enough considering he is ignoring paranoia (MrZ's most recent town game). On December 16 2012 01:23 JieXian wrote: tell me how zentor's behavior isn't weird as compared to 2 of his other town games http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=341663&user=137099 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=363625&user=137099 0 reads 0 risks this game, because town has been going the wrong way, because he doesn't need to. This reads like he is trying to justify his stance on MrZ after the fact. Instead of finding MrZ scummy and looking into him, the presenting good reasons to vote him, JX voted him, then went in search of the reasons when pressured. This strikes me as scummy. I already pointed out how his first post feels constructed, and if that is true and he spent time on that post, why didn't he spend time backing up his vote on MrZ right from the start? | ||
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DoYouHas
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JX's response to being under threat of certain lynch is not what I would have expected from scum. He didn't over react, he pushed his read on MrZ consistantly. And recently he has given advice to another player, called out hapa and thrawn for being quiet, and revamped his defense to not just justify his own posts, but actually put pressure back on his attackers. These are not the actions of a scum who 'slipped' so badly with his first post. Also, look at his past filters. Scum NMMXVIII - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=345447&user=39438 Town NMMXX - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=349066&user=39438 I looked these over, and his play this game looks more like his town game than his scum game. They are both Newbie games and there are only two, so it isn't huge evidence, but it is good supporting evidence. ##Unvote JieXian Trying to decide the more likely scum between threesr and morbid atm. | ||
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DoYouHas
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##Vote Mordbidius | ||
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DoYouHas
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DoYouHas
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DoYouHas
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I'm still interested in this promised case on MrCc. | ||
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DoYouHas
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On December 17 2012 11:29 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Hapa, Eywa is totes always right about everything. Shouldn't we listen to him? You had better hope we are right about Eywa, because if we aren't you look exactly like a gloating scum who is buddying hapa. | ||
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DoYouHas
United States1140 Posts
2. JX is town. 3. Hapa is town. 4. MrZ is SCUM 1. I've been ignoring everyone's 'scumslips' this game. I don't think they are a reliable way of catching scum. Early on when Eywa was actually giving reasons for why Hapa was scum he repeatedly misrepresented what Hapa had done. But what really makes me think Eywa is scum is his repeated responses that push responsibility for proving that he is right on other people and the way he doesn't have anything else to talk about. The former tends to follow, "if you actually read the thread, you would have no choice but to agree with me". The later was what I was searching for when I asked him for his second scumread. 2. My original reasons for unvoting JX (click) still hold true. Secondly, I don't think it is possible for a noob scum (which JX would be) to jump in front of the most active influential townie with Eywa in hopes that both of them tunneling Hapa instead of just 1 would actually convince people. It just doesn't make sense for a scum to take up the stance that JX has, risking 2/3 of the scumteam to try and overthrow hapa. It makes much more sense that he is a tunneling townie. 3. Hapa was the reason that this town wasn't a quagmire day1. He has pushed people, gotten people to post, and actively sought information. He is town. 4. I was null on MrZ until his recent push for revealing votes on Hapa. His strange play and follow up reasoning for why it couldn't be scum play was null simply because he showed that he has been trying to post in such a way that doesn't make sense for scum. HOWEVER, really think through the option MrZ has presented about revealing votes. Hapa was one of the most townie looking people going into N1. But DP was also townie looking AND DP was espousing putting votes onto 'bad townies' in order to split up the damage of successful witchhunter shots and nightkills. MrZ wants everyone to ignore that the same people that trusted DP enough to vote him could also have trusted him enough to follow his lead in how to vote. MrZ wants us to believe that DP could only have been after a town Hapa would have gotten shot. With DP's voting philosophy floating about, there is no way to know how many people bought into it and didn't vote for the obvious choice, hapa. So what is a good way to cover your bases? Do exactly what MrZ did. Shoot DP, then probe the rest of the town with this bogus reasoning in order to see if Hapa actually did end up blue or not. The way he did it even makes it possible for him to not get instalynched if hapa gets shot. If MrZ wanted to actually confirm his suspicion without risking a potential active and productive townie, he would have waited for N3 to bring this up. I will be voting MrZ after Eywa. | ||
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DoYouHas
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I'm around for the next hour or so. | ||
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DoYouHas
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Hapa, read my case on MrZ and let's lynch him. I can't support you on a JX lynch. | ||
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DoYouHas
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On December 18 2012 07:27 Eywa- wrote: Hapa is scum, not sure why you'd ever side with him. Proven on many occasions where he slips up and lies then throws out half assed excuses. Hapa is actually productive, all you have done is flung shit at him. | ||
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DoYouHas
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On December 18 2012 07:26 MrZentor wrote: DYH, your case is bad. Scum would have tried to shoot Hapa before DP. And your whole case is based on that not being true. Wrong, your case is based on that assumption being true, mine is not. My case is based on you pushing a strategy that would reveal whether hapa is blue or not when he is still potentially in danger of being silver shot. My case is based on acknowledging that you don't know exactly how scum are operating, which you clearly don't, because you want to lynch hapa. | ||
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DoYouHas
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MrZ was rolefishing, plain and simple. | ||
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DoYouHas
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On December 18 2012 07:37 MrZentor wrote: If Hapa was town, then Mafia wouldn't have any silver bullets left. It's pretty simple, and the reasoning behind it is solid. If he were truly a blue, then he would have nothing to fear from the witch hunter. Anyways, originally, my plan was going to reveal if Hapa were scum or not; I had a null read on him. And then Hapa started acting really scummy. Like REALLY scummy. So no, my read on Hapa isn't all based on that assumption being true. In fact, it isn't based on that assumption at all, as my plan didn't succeed, and we didn't gain any information from it. What? Again, the only way your plan works is if your assumptions hold true, yes, they aren't bad assumptions, I never said they weren't but they aren't the ONLY valid assumptions. What you just said boils down to, hapa was either vanilla or elected scum, I was trying to figure out which. This is exactly my point. What you did leaves no room for your assumption being wrong. | ||
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DoYouHas
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DoYouHas
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On December 18 2012 13:55 Hapahauli wrote: You were convinced that Eywa was scum. What do you make of the last few pages? It is definitely a pretty drastic change from earlier. I don't really trust it until I see more. His most reasonable posts have been lists, while when he is actually pushing someone he seems entirely unreasonable. Not to mention he went from you being obvious scum, to you being likely scum, to you being probable scum, to taking cues from you on lynch targets in a very short space of time. That is a little fast. | ||
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DoYouHas
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DoYouHas
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I'll address my inactivity before I get off though. Right from the beginning I wasn't going to have as much time as I would like for this game. You may recall I /out for just this reason. As things are I have been making time to keep current on the thread and compose my thoughts. I'm playing this game in chunks. It is not ideal, but I have been able to make cases and sometimes interact. Maybe I should have insisted that BH replace me immediately when I saw the rolepm, but I figured I could make it work and save the replacements for people who had serious reasons they couldn't play anymore. Gnight. | ||
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DoYouHas
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MrZentor I had a null to town read on MrZ at the end of day1. Despite his claim that no scum would play like he was playing, or that only a truly amazing scum could pull off his day1 play as scum, + Show Spoiler + On December 17 2012 03:12 MrZentor wrote: I think only a noob would think saying something like "IM OBV TOWN GUYS THAT IS PROVEN BEYOND DOUBT NOW" is scummy. Remember, scum want to fit into the crowd; they want to imitate a regular townie's behavior, because in doing that, they are safest from getting killed. Doing things like saying "IM OBV TOWN" doesn't fit into this agenda. + Show Spoiler + And before anybody says that that's wifom, because scum could easily purposely act strange and then use this argument to try to prove that their town, and that therefore it's meaningless, let me explain something to you. Yes, in theory, mafia could easily also could use this argument to try to prove that their town, but, in practice, mafia are too afraid of risks to try to use this argument to prove that they are town. Only an exceptionally daring or experienced scum player (like Ace) would be both capable and have the courage to do it. And, because I am neither, I am town. Also, I don't want to kill a lurker anymore. On December 15 2012 07:08 MrZentor wrote: ##Vote MrZentor Because I can. I can't really go after him for how he pushed mord. I agreed with his read on JX and his points on Mord were convincing. It is worth noting that he only stopped 1 lynch in order to push a different mislynch. A good way to gain cred as scum and something I think fits with how MrZ plays, but not really alignment indicative. What really tips the scales for me, and I'm amazed doesn't do the same for the rest of you is his n1 call to reveal voting on hapa. Maybe you all didn't think through the iterations of how that could play out like I did and see that that play was extremely scummy. Let me remind you of the only explanation MrZ provides when I pressured him on this earlier, + Show Spoiler + On December 18 2012 07:41 MrZentor wrote: The probability of scum having a bullet and Hapa being blue was minuscule. And I'm impatient. 1. MrZ is right and scum HAD to have shot hapa before DP - Scum hapa is caught, but would have been caught just as surely N2. 2. MrZ is wrong and scum may not have had to shoot hapa before DP:
b. hapa is vanilla town - revealing votes lets scum know that in all likelihood hapa is not going to be protected and is the clear choice for the regular scum hit. It is the timing of this that makes it so scummy. If MrZ was town he would have waited until N2 to bring this out. The only purpose bringing it out before N1 has even ended, and then pressuring the rest of the town to reveal their votes quickly, is to cover the bases on #2 above. If MrZ had gotten his way, hapa's death would have been practically ensured. Instead, not enough people went along with MrZ's plan, and we got a thrawn death. Enter hapa's comments + Show Spoiler + 1. On December 18 2012 10:43 Hapahauli wrote: Like this for example. I've played a bunch of games, coached a bunch of newbie games, and I have yet to see a mafia player "rolefishing." This is something that mafia are largely scared of doing as it draws attention to themselves. I can't see MrZ rolefishing this blatantly. 2. On December 18 2012 12:12 Hapahauli wrote: And even if he is "rolefishing," DYH's case against MrZentor doesn't adequately address why MrZ's idea scummy rather than stupid. 1. The hallmark of MrZ's play so far has been drawing attention to himself and then using it as a "I can't be mafia because" statement. 2. What about MrZ's play so far strikes you as stupid? He clearly had his defense of his early play lined up before even his first post, his case on mord was convincing and gained him town cred. MrZ is thinking things through. Next up is this response, which doesn't fit with his earlier logic OR his actions: On December 18 2012 07:37 MrZentor wrote: If Hapa was town, then Mafia wouldn't have any silver bullets left. It's pretty simple, and the reasoning behind it is solid. 1. If he were truly a blue, then he would have nothing to fear from the witch hunter. 2. Anyways, originally, my plan was going to reveal if Hapa were scum or not; I had a null read on him. And then Hapa started acting really scummy. Like REALLY scummy. So no, my read on Hapa isn't all based on that assumption being true. In fact, it isn't based on that assumption at all, as my plan didn't succeed, and we didn't gain any information from it. 1. Why would he have nothing to fear from the witch hunter if he was a blue? By MrZ's own reasoning a blue Hapa would have to already be dead in order for the witch hunter to no longer be a threat. 2. This statement completely contradicts with his actions. If this was truly his intention and he truly had a null read, he would have waited until N2, period. It isn't like the safe time for claims hasn't been discussed already. What happened here is when I put pressure on MrZ, forcing him to admit that he could be wrong and that his actions only helps scum. He starts tripping up trying to back himself off of hard pushing hapa. Speaking of which... On December 18 2012 09:41 MrZentor wrote: The main part of my speculation was that if Hapa is town, mafia has used both of their bullets. And I am beginning to suspect that Hapa isn't scum, but only because of his recent rage. I'm still wondering why you contradict yourself so much. This is the only post where he mentions any reasoning for his sudden turn around from 'hapa has to be scum, and I can prove it!', to hapa is obv town and I'm going to work with him on lynching DYH. In MrZ's words, the chances that his assumption is wrong is miniscule, and it isn't like his original plan's viability has disappeared, we could reveal our day1 votes at the start of N2 and it would prove his point almost as well as N1. MrZ is scum | ||
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DoYouHas
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DoYouHas
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On December 19 2012 06:31 Eywa- wrote: I'm just going to go ahead and say this, assume that all you said is true and that MrZ were trying to expose hapa, after he failed to expose him, the witchdoctor would have taken the shot anyway... Which means Hapa either didn't get blued or is also scum. I don't agree with you, I think DP's policy had more influence than you seem to think. I know it did for me. If you are right and the witch hunter would have shot hapa anyways after MrZ's plan failed, they probably would have layered the regular scum hit on top of that just to cover their bases. hapa isn't dead, so I don't think this is possible. | ||
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DoYouHas
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On December 19 2012 08:27 MrZentor wrote: His whole case is That he agrees with me on a bunch of stuff But because I wanted to know if Hap was scum or not from witchcraft votes And because I didn't want to wait more than 48 hours to get the results I am scum. One thing DYH doesn't realize, which is extremely important, is that my plan wouldn't work if I waited for N2, because there would be at least 2 more dead people, and I would have no way to know those people's witchcraft votes. He says I am scum because I didn't wait for N2 to ask for everybody's votes, but he doesn't understand that my plan wouldn't work if I waited for N2. MrZ has now given 2 bad responses to my point about the timing of his action. The first was him being impatient. Now this. The fact of the matter is, his plan WOULD work N2 compared to when he actually proposed it. He would have had 10 votes to work with before thrawn died. I did not vote for hapa. Now, even if I die, MrZ has 9/10 of the original votes he was so sure would confirm hapa as scum or trap the scum team. He honestly wants you to believe that his plan CANNOT work with 90% of the information he would have gained anyways. I call bs. Here is where things should get convincing for those of you who still won't listen to me on the previous point. On December 19 2012 05:58 MrZentor wrote: I had just ignored him most of the time, because in the last game I played with him, we mislynched him and he was some important role. I was afraid of misreading him again, but after he was brought up yesterday, I looked into him and he looked really scummy. On December 20 2012 02:44 MrZentor wrote: As scum the easiest thing to do is to pick a target (me) and push that target the whole game, ignoring everything else. And DYH isn't strong or confident. He's just mindlessly pushing for my lynch. It's an extremely easy to execute and effective scum strategy. Also, I am SUCH an easy target. On December 20 2012 02:50 MrZentor wrote: The reason DYH is scum isn't that he is pushing an easy target. You're missing the point. He's tunneling me, all game, ignoring everything else. That's scum play. Who else has done that? First, MrZ states that he pushed a mislynch on me in paranoia mafia and he is afraid of misreading me. Now, when he is trying to strongarm eywa into voting me his true colors come out. Pushing a target I'm confident in to the exlusion of other discussions is EXACTLY what almost got me mislynched in paranoia. Other people have pointed out how I haven't been tunneling MrZ 'all game'. However, JX, your wrong about my Eywa read, I think he is town. What was confusing me was I thought he connected with MrZ, but as I've delved into MrZ I've found that isn't true. MrZ's approach towards me doesn't hold up. Hapa was one of the first to show this, but now with these more recent posts, it should be clear to everyone. However, all this being said, we still need to consolidate on either myself or MrCc. Eywa is town and isn't going to move his vote. I still think hapa is town, and he isn't going to move his vote. That means for an all town majority all the townies have to pile on either me or MrCc. We can't risk an no-lynch, that would likely put us in mylo or lylo depending on the nightkill and the silver bullet situation. I can't honestly say I have looked into MrCc that much recently. What I know is that he has a better chance of flipping scum than me, and given the current situation, that makes my choice clear. ##Unvote ##Vote Mr. CheeseCake | ||
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DoYouHas
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##Unvote ##Vote MrZentor Time to start posting all my reads I guess... | ||
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DoYouHas
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Hapa - town - With his contributions day one and his willingness to go after anyone and back off just as quickly, hapa's play has just been too confident and productive to be scum. JX - townish - His willingness to go after the most influential townie and back up Eywa, even when Eywa was flinging crap does not strike me as the play of a noob scum, which JX would definitely be. His day1 play also fits his 1 game town meta better than his 1 game scum meta. kush - townishnull - kush certainly hasn't been helpful much this game, what struck me as town from him is when he asked if anyone had claimed witchcrafty yet. What scum would say that? (Aside from MrZ). MrZ - scum - Djo - scumish - Djo has been playing the reasonable middleground in this game far too much. This has been a game of extremes and votes jumping around. Djo always seems to be looking to come out on top regardless of which way things play out. MrCc - scumishnull - I didn't like the way MrCc buddied hapa during the Eywa push, and the points about his Thrawn case are decent. But I haven't looked into him thoroughly. Draz - null - I have paid almost no attention to draz this game. | ||
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DoYouHas
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DoYouHas
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1. Give scum witchcraft votes (they don't actually work towards electing anyone, but they are necessary for #2.) 2. Each person elected gets randomly masoned with 1 of the people that voted them. I'm not sure how you would balance this with scum having 2 silver bullets, because this would increase the chances of scum knowing who got elected. | ||
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DoYouHas
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On December 29 2012 08:45 DoYouHas wrote: What if, instead of making Masonry an option, making it a much more common part of the game. 1. Give scum witchcraft votes (they don't actually work towards electing anyone, but they are necessary for #2.) 2. Each person elected gets randomly masoned with 1 of the people that voted them. I'm not sure how you would balance this with scum having 2 silver bullets, because this would increase the chances of scum knowing who got elected. Maybe you make it so that silver bullets are resolved with the day/night post, instead of instantly. That would make it so that the masonry could be used for scumhunting, and also allow time for breadcrumbing who you got masoned with and all sorts of shinanigans. | ||
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DoYouHas
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On December 29 2012 09:04 Djodref wrote: I don't know about Hapa. It kept JieXian really focused on the fact that he was still alive. I think it could have won us the game if the CC kill would have gone through. And for my attitude, I was really exhausted and about to take my plane when kush finally posted his case against me ^^ Also I got less involved cause I'm in France now. This is what I mean about your priorities being off. Hapa was essentially confirmed, had ridiculous influence on lynch decisions, was clearly doing a better job scumhunting than any other townie, and was likely elected. Getting rid of him is an incredibly better choice than preoccupying a non-influential townie & getting rid of MrZ. Also, with no silver bullet, and no RB (after MrZ died), hapa became almost unkillable, or at least much more of a coinflip kill than I generally like. | ||
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DoYouHas
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It would be a pretty drastic change in the setup, but the more I'm thinking about it, the more it intrigues me. | ||
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