Chrono Trigger Mafia
Forum Index > TL Mafia |
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
| ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
| ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
I'd like everyone to chime in on this subject of party selection and help come to the optimum way of doing things. | ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
| ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
On November 21 2012 11:19 Hapahauli wrote: So you want to form a party of people you and three "obviously town but inexperienced" players you are free to manipulate? Thanks but no thanks. As far as I know I have no way of manipulating them without the use of this thread. Wouldn't that instantly out me in the thread? I typed some sensible stuff and you just twisted it to make it seems suspicious. I wonder why that is. | ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
I think scum will shoot certain players, regardless if they are considered town or not by the majority, if they are town quite early. That makes them not so good targets to be "confirmed" early on because it's a waste. If scum chooses to shoot the "likely town" group assuming I succeed in the mission, it preserves the town vets. If they choose to shoot the town vets it preserves the "likely town" group. I hope this helps clear it up. | ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
On November 21 2012 11:24 Hapahauli wrote: @ Sandro Well to elaborate on that sandro, I don't find it to be a good idea to have a vet + 3 less-experienced players on the same team. The vet will have a lot of persuasive authority over the rest of the team and it probably won't be a very effective way to think through these mini-games. Unless the vet was super-obvious-town or something, I'm wary of such a party setup From what I see in the OP only if they are town/mafia and the hidden value assigned to them (and other hidden factors) influense in the success of a mission. I doubt how much experienced a player has is one of the hidden factors. | ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
On November 21 2012 11:32 Z-BosoN wrote: Basically we should just trust your own abilities to sense if someone is town and be happy? Yes. @acro yes I have, I believe this party selection plan will ultimately lead town to victory. | ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
On November 21 2012 11:34 Hapahauli wrote: Well the problem is that it requires the town to place a great deal of trust in you. I'm not sure of how distinguishable your meta is, but I'm very hesitant of placing so much trust//power in a person so early in the game. I really don't understand this at all. Do the mini-games "confirm" people as town or something? Otherwise, I really don't get this at all. The OP says the sucess of the misson depends on a weighted sum of town/mafia players assigned to it. That means that if a mission was successful most likely at least 3 out of 4 players in were town. | ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
On November 21 2012 11:33 marvellosity wrote: Unless I missed something setup-wise, I'm not getting your linking who gets shot and who is in the party together. If for instance syllogism is town, what difference does it make whether he is in a party or not? Doesn't he just get shot anyway? How does people being in a party, mission successful or otherwise, 'confirm' anything? From what I've read in the OP (events part), you can assume that being in a successful mission makes you more likely to be town. What I'm saying is that if syllo for example is town he will be prob shot regardless of how likely town he is in the eyes of others, so it makes to take him on early missions. Likewise if player X that no one knows is almost confirmed town he prob wont get shot early by scum regardless. And if they shoot him to deal with confirmed people, that preserves the good/known players. | ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
| ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
| ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
| ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
On November 21 2012 12:02 Clarity_nl wrote: So you're saying that you deduced that scum will know hp by flavor claims, or anything for that matter? Please explain to us idiots. Who do you think will have more hp chrono or chrono's mom? Pretty sure HP proportions will be in accordance to game flavour. | ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
On November 21 2012 12:37 TheChronicler wrote: You have confident reads this early? I'm taking the decision given to one person and spreading it to four. Leader can say who he's picking and give his reasons why (if he wants to), and then the three chosen can choose who they want on the team and give their reasons why (if they want to) That gives us four times the information. How is this bad? Because you have to put more effort into the game and keep track of what people are doing? Let me explain it easier why this is stupid: Let's say player X chooses player Y and so on and the mission fails. What does that tell us about the alignments of the people who picked? Nothing. So it doesn't give us any extra info, because you are relying on 3 dif day 1 reads of 3 dif players, with no way of knowing who made a wrong read or who is scum anyway/ | ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
| ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
On November 21 2012 15:59 syllogism wrote: Sandro who do you think is [most likely to be] town so far? I'll do better and give you 2 I have a pretty good town read on: Diodude and oatsmaster. @Djoref I'll try to put in an effort and explain my reads properly when the time comes, but I'm gonna wait a little more before I do that. | ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
| ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
On November 21 2012 17:01 syllogism wrote: All this talk about treating this game like Resistance is misguided or malicious, at least if the implication is that the game is only about looking for townies. Resistance is a game with no roles, transparent mechanics, no flips, clear goal and every day you gain information that isn't particularly subject to manipulation. In this game there is some sort of mafia NK mechanic, hitpoint mechanic, likely a lot of roles and town can even win by eliminating all the mafia. This suggests that there is a lot of KP in the game and it is not limited to just mafia. Moreover, I think the more mafia are left alive when Lavos is summoned, the harder it is for town to win. The point being, there is little reason for us not to also be looking for mafia in the thread. Mafia have relatively easy time blending in if all they have to do is pretend to be looking for townies or even worse every single day just look for the best party leader. Identifying likely mafia will also give our blues something to work on. So, while it's fine that we early on discuss about who is likely to be town or who would be the good leader, this shouldn't last and the game should be played quite like a normal mafia game. Town hunting can be mostly restricted to your spreadsheets unless you are trying to convince the likely party leader to include someone on the team. I predict it will be harder for us to find scum with no lynch voting. I think the best bet at least for d1 is to concentrate in finding a team that will succeed in the mission and let us learn more about the game mechanics. | ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
On November 21 2012 17:04 Keirathi wrote: Damnit, I was in bed and checked the thread once more from my phone and had to get up to come back and reply to this because of how vehemently I disagree. First: Notice that it says MOST OF THE TIME there won't be a lynch, implying that there will be a traditional lynch at some point (presumably on non-event days). Also: Notice the "If all mafia die." How exactly are mafia ever going to die in this game if all we do is townhunt the whole game? I'm going to guess they aren't going to get punished for being selected into the party (and actually, probably rewarded), so they won't be dying from that. So, that only really leaves 1) lynch whenever that's what we do for the day 2) town vigs shooting the scum and 3) third party having some sort of KP Both 1 and 2 require scumhunting. Also, scumhunting narrows down possible town reads. Basically I 100% disagree with you that the only thing we should be doing is townhunting. If I had to guess I would say after lavos get summoned he gets X amount of HP and is targetable by players each day or something. Mafia needs to kill town so it prob wont target lavos and keep hitting town while town tries to kill it. The outcome of the events will prob influence in how properly town can fight/survive lavos. | ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
On November 21 2012 17:15 syllogism wrote: Really? What do you expect to learn about game mechanics after day 1 and how do you think will that impact our play? While mafia has easier time bussing their team mates in this format, they still do not want town to start treating some of their players are likely mafia. If there we allow players to just look for townies and all the discussion revolves around that, it is going to be more difficult to identify mafia, which can also make it more difficult to identify townies, at least for a lot of players. Lynch mechanic or not, mafia still has to fake their mafia reads or bus and they would rather not do either. Discussions relating as to who people think are mafia produce a lot more useful information. I'd like to know the outcome of the mission, results from night actions, kp mafia has etc to get a better grasp at the mechanincs. Of course I'm not saying we shouldn't talk about who we think are mafia/ who we wouldn't like to see on missions, but I think the focus specially for d1 should be on getting a solid team. This game will prob be extremelly blue action oriented so we can spam our reads to help out but in the end the colective effort should be on getting teams toghether and keeping mafia out of them. Of course that involves identifying who the likely mafia are. | ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
| ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
On November 21 2012 17:33 syllogism wrote: But getting a team together is not a collective effort; players only have to identify one likely townie who is also likely capable of identifying 3 additional ones. If I was a party leader, I wouldn't pay much attention to who most people think are town. As such I suppose it can be argued the possible party leaders should devote more time on town hunting, but everyone else should mostly just justify their party leader vote and spend the rest of their efforts on finding mafia. Do you agree that it's easier to get reads if people post and explain their mafia reads than if they only talk about who they find to likely be town? Yes, you are correct indeed. I guess I was thinking already as how to be effective as party leader. But you have a point that if people discuss their mafia reads it will be easier. | ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
| ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
either way you have your share bit of work to do to =P. I guess I'll know by day 2? | ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
On November 21 2012 18:13 Keirathi wrote: Syllogism/sandroba: You guys have ignored us, but what do you think of Toads reasoning for me being scum? Do you think I'm scum? What about Deinos 2 scum reads and 2 town reads? Agree or disagree with any of them? I wouldn't put you as a town read, but I don't agree with toads case on you. I'll say nothing point to me one way or another so far. About deinos I agree on oats as I've said before. Not quite sure on acro still, I'd put him the same as you. GK and djo I'm slightly leaning town so far. | ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
On November 21 2012 22:19 syllogism wrote: This is a really pointless and irrelevant topic, but it would serve you well to stop using the term WIFOM and if you are town you should not attempt to downplay things that a person of one alignment is clearly more likely to do. That is all that mafia is, determining what is more likely. You can reduce anything to a level where you can claim it's "wifom" when in fact it is evidence of someone's alignment. WIFOM is a meaningless term used by lazy players, people who do not understand mafia or mafia aligned players who want to wave away evidence of someone being town. I wholeheartedly support this post. | ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
| ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
| ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
On November 21 2012 22:51 marvellosity wrote: what distinguishes a town syllo from a scum syllo in your opinion? He is way less conflict enticing / questions asking as scum and just chillax and agrees with people that are the right track. This game he says he will be lazy, but isn't and is activily doing shit left and right. So yeah. | ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
On November 22 2012 00:01 goodkarma wrote: I found this particular quote to be upsetting. I understand, on the one hand, if you have a town read on syllo. But I don't understand why you would be willing to go so far as to allow him to veto your picks. If you're not that confident in your choices, you should as well just have him pick for you... Or better yet, let him be party leader. As current "frontrunner" I would like a response from you on this scandal. Are you looking to concede and have syllo run in your stead, or was this merely an assertion that you are super-confident syllo is town? I'm very confident he is town. We talk about reads and games constantly in skype when we are not playing in it, and we get better results when we work toghether I believe. | ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
On November 22 2012 02:22 Promethelax wrote: You know catching up with this thread is a million times worse than I was hoping, remember how I said that I was toning down the amount which I am posting? Could you all do me a favour and consolidate too. Thanks. After reading the last ~20 pages I have come to a conclusion as to who I want to vote. It isn't Sylo and it isn't Sand. Their abilities are, no doubt, incredible but I don't like the way Sand took over the thread early and no one challenged him. I feel that a mafia player would in fact have tried to take over. (Remember Matt's reed of Decundo in PP) as such I'll be voting away from the two of them and towards someone who I read as town right now and who is known for having good reads. ## Vote: Acro Come on boys, lets do this right and make Sand have to fight for his nomination. I'll be out again for a few hours. See ya'll soon. That's a clear misrepresentation of what happened. Many people were putting their names out there to be party leader and I came about with a different aproach and it got support based on the ideas in it. Mafia hardly ever goes against the consensus and stick their neck out there to oppose in that way. That's a shitty, if not mafia oriented, reason for opposing me. You even include syllo in it randomly and don't comment on why he isn't the choice. | ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
On November 22 2012 03:24 CaveJohnson wrote: I'll take the wishes of the actual player over an interpretation of play from someone who is being supported by the player in question. Syllo has chosen himself to be taken out of the running and we should respect that. Are you being obtuse on purpose or are you not reading the thread? I sugest you give it a good read before you ever post again. | ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
On November 22 2012 04:05 syllogism wrote: Sandroba: when you are back, I would like to know if you have reconsidered Dienosore at all based on new content, in addition to explaining what about clarity_nl's play you find suspect. Some kind of mafia reads would also be helpful. Also any thoughts regarding the current candidate situation? I had clarity as scum, but I'm kinda torn on it right now after the marv/clarity exchange. I took a look at mario and it does look similar. Earlier he was pouncing with one-liners on weak stuff people posted and that tipped me off. And about Die, yeah I still think he is town. What makes you dissagree? | ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
On November 22 2012 05:59 Acrofales wrote: [/spoiler]You are wanting me to quote the absense of useful posts by you? How am I supposed to do that? If you want examples of you yelling at the top of your lungs that you're town, here's a brief compilation: [spoiler="IAMTOWN!!!1111"] Not only am I town, but everybody can see that I'm town from my meta!!! Not seeing it yet... Call me town, pretty please? Dude, I'm town AND awesome! I am town and I can write it in BIG BLACK BOLD LETTERS!!!111 Please Marv, please call me town? Given that the rest of your filter is almost all meaningless banter, I fail to see how anybody could get a town read from this if your normal town meta is to be constructive. So don't you "ask anybody in the thread" on me as if you are confirmed town. You're not, shape up and stop looking scummy. Acro this case is terrible and you should know better. The behavior you pointed out does not point to one alignment or the other. | ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
On November 22 2012 08:57 Acrofales wrote: Ok. This roleclaim was stupid. Which part of "don't roleclaim" did you not get when I said that. I don't believe scum would claim Frog... and I find this play far too ballsy for a noob 3rd party, making this guy an actual town Frog. Sandro, Syllo, Toad: would you take this guy along on a quest? I actually had a theory I discussed with syllo before the game started of how frog could be third party with the wincon of slaying magus then winning with town. I do believe he would count as town though for the purpose of mission success even if that's the case. So yeah I prob would. | ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
On November 22 2012 09:49 Hapahauli wrote: Is there a reason you consider him so townie? I'm thinking of voting you or him myself, so any reasoning you could provide would help. I believe I gave a brief sumary to marv already some 20 pages ago. I've played and talked with him a lot and I'm pretty sure I can tell. We often discuss games toghether so I know what's up with his thought process. | ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
| ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
| ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
| ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
On November 22 2012 10:43 Oatsmaster wrote: WIFOM? what is the difference between that and WIFOM? You are using the other abolished term. Tsc Tsc Tsc. | ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
On November 22 2012 10:44 Z-BosoN wrote: Are you referring to anything especific? Also, after a skim through some pages I realized you had a town read on GK, do to your skype chats and shit. Can you be more specific on what is it exactly that he said that made you think him town? From GK's filter, I'm leaning pretty null... Nothing in particular, just 90% of the "cases" that have been posted here. My leaning town read on GK has nothing to do with skype, it was a response when someone asked me if I agreed with dio on GK being scummy. | ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
On November 22 2012 10:44 Hapahauli wrote: @ Sandro Hm ok, I'll look through some of syllo's stuff and see if I agree. Also, thoughts on my thoughts on Toad? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=52#1024 @ Kita As much as I enjoy flag-waving turkey's, running a joke campaign doesn't help town here. Do you actually believe Sandro/Syllo/etc aren't good candidates? I've read them and you fall in the same cathegory of many other cases here. A townie's goal is also looking as townie as possible to get elected/participating in a mission. | ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
| ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
| ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
| ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
| ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
| ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
| ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
On November 22 2012 17:34 syllogism wrote: It's more likely than not real and he seems kind of towny, but in a crazy way that has often posed me problems. As you know, I'm convinced that at least some of the main characters either aren't in the game (and mafia knows this so they are safe claims) or some of them are simply mafia. I'll be back in maybe 6 hours Sure but when everyone already thinks you are town fake claiming seems ultra unlikely. Makes 0 sense as mafia in his pos. | ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
@oats I had him as town way before the claim, you can check my previous post when syllo asked me for a town read. So yes. | ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
@acro oats is one of my stronger town reads. Pretty much all his posts seem very genuine and seem to come from a streamlined thought process with no careful consideration behind it. | ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
| ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
| ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
I took 125 dmg and got roleblocked. | ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
I think this claim is a little too far fetched to be a fake claim. I can't fathom someone fake claiming 20+ different abilities and if he can tell us before he uses it we can verify. | ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
As to your question, obviously, since I am town. He has been paranoid about my alignment a lot of times in the past (of the top of my head merc mini mafia and that huge 80 player game), but normally he reaches the correct conclusion soon enough. | ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
syllo's points: 1)Mafia has to run d1, they need a strong candidate, if not sandroba who else. Assume for a moment I am town. You decide to run too because you are not certain I'm town yet. Most people believe either you or me are town. Do you think any candidate mafia would propose would gain momentum in this situation? Probably not, and if they forced it, it would probably look very unatural and suspicious. 2) I dissapeared at suspicious times and did not announce my support to him in the thread. This is obviously non alignment related, but I'm going to explain it anyway since most of the case hinders on this. We went to a bar in the afternoon and met some people. I was planning to get back home in time to play this game. We met a really nice group of girls and they were going out to a club. I came back home to change and vote then went out again. Proceeded to not sleep overnight and severly fuck my sleep schedule. God I'm fucking home friday night because I just woke up. And didn't I announce my support for you early? You gotta be kidding me on this one. I fucking concluded you were town very fast and said I didn't mind you being leader instead of me. I missed your straight up question asking for support because I wasn't home, but that implicit the whole time. Come on now. 3) My reasoning for reads feels off. I'm not giving scum reads. The first part: can you honestly say that? I'm never one to give very precise reasoning for reads and it's more of a gut feeling most of the time, about a certain post or timing or w/e. I don't even understand how you came up with this one. Second part: fair enough, I didn't bother with this day1. I'm pretty sure prom and kita are scum at this point and almost sure on clarity. I'll try to provide proof in another post. 4) I tried to discredit you instead of adressing your accusations. Honestly I don't even see an acusation in your filter before now. You had a feeling I had >50% of being mafia and complained about the way I was behaving, because you felt it was off. Is there anything I could say to "adress" it besisdes saying that you are wrong? And yes you've been paranoid about my alignment early on in some games we played, I remember you being a pain until you convinced yourself I was town. | ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
| ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
On November 24 2012 12:07 Hapahauli wrote: Oh come on... you're straight up OMGUS Clarity? I mean the guy is a relatively new player and has an 11 page filter... It's not omgus, I had the gut feeling he was scum before that. Many others are voting for me too and you don't see me going after each of them. However this dude is distorting things to push an agenda. | ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
Okay glad to see you are back syllo since there is no point in talking to everyone else if I can't convince you. My reads are indeed gut based, and from that I mean exactly what you say (wording/tone). Something feels off or unatural, and that's certainly not easily explainable. And for what it's worth yes, of course it's based on reason, but I rarely bother to explain it in detail. I posted the "clarity smells funny" thing right I read something he said that felt off for me. | ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
| ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
On November 24 2012 19:44 Acrofales wrote: Okay. You want vibe? I got vibe. Sandro: your last two posts sound like you are wallowing in self-pity and acting like a kicked dog. That does not sound like the self-assured town Sandro who tells people that they are wrong, bad or useless if they disagree. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, but my doubt is getting very large. How do you read self pity into that? My tone is like that because even though syllo is wrong this time I respect his play overall and he is town. | ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
On November 24 2012 20:16 Oatsmaster wrote: The thing I have about this claim by Sandro. It is an easy claim as scum to make because, 1. He got roleblocked so obviously it didnt go through. 2. Since he is familiar with the lore, its not difficult to make up a skill. 3. Syllo is the best target to put protective skills so it seems believable. 4. This claim is really late, why didnt he say it in his opening post where he lists the damage taken and the roleblock and waiting until now, where there isnt a lot of activity? ??? Why would I claim my ability before someone who knew who I targeted asked to reveal it? I don't mind claiming my role name, I don't see how it makes a difference. I'm spekkio, the master of war. | ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
On November 24 2012 20:34 Acrofales wrote: @Sandroba: a lot of the case against you is inspired by the idea that scum must have had someone in the running for party leader yesterday. Do you agree with this? And if it's not you, then who was it? I answered that already: kita. He got overshadowed by his lack of activity and the fact that everyone was supporting me or syllo right off the bat. | ||
sandroba
Canada4932 Posts
@risk If not for inactivity, then why are you voting for me? @everyone Just think for a second. Look at the team I picked. If I were scum and planning to fail the mission I would be basically commiting suicide. | ||
| ||