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iamperfection
United States9639 Posts
Votecount: Oatsmaster (2): Jacob Strangelove,Sonic Death Monkey Jacob Strangelove (2) HeloKnight,Oatsmaster Not voting (4):Aquanim,Mr. Cheesecake,Yamato77,Kickstart,Oatsmaster If you see your (or another's ) vote to be wrong, it would be kind to notify us. Currently Oatsmaster is set to be lynched 24 hours remain | ||
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Chromatically
United States1700 Posts
I'll go over both of your posts on me in this one. My comments are in red. On November 28 2012 12:22 Oatsmaster wrote: Ok now we got a huge advantage that scum didnt hit anybody. I say everyone say their top scum reads. My Top Scum read is: Heloknight. After Munk-E appears, he agrees with munke but still keeps his vote on him??? It is obvious that munk-e wasnt actually a scum read for him so why did he still vote for him? I agreed with Munk-E? On what? Munk-E was a lurker that had a decent chance of flipping scum. No one else was a) lurking as much and b) a major scum read for me. I was leaning town on yamato, the other lynch possibility at the time, and at least yamato was posting. If he was (or is) scum, he'd show it in future days. Also he asked a series of questions for me which I completely missed and he didnt pressure me to answer them. This shows that he is not interested in actually finding scum but to look like he is involved My questions were about your case on CC and a lot about whether you actually believed in "forced casualness". I had already made posts about how many people's posts can be interpreted that way, so I wanted to make you defend your opinion on this. However, when you next started posting, you weren't pushing Cheesecake or the "forced casualness" at all. So I let it drop, because you seemed like you had moved on and I was pretty tired of talking about something as silly as casualness in opening posts anyway. On November 29 2012 10:38 Oatsmaster wrote: CASE ON HELOKNIGHT! ! In the bolded parts, heloknight says that lynching lurkers is better because they arent contributing. From the town mindset, you want as many people alive who arent obvious scum because it prolongs Lylo and gives us more of a chance to find scum. What? Yes, both of those statements are pretty much true. I would say that the second statement should be: "You want as many people alive as possible who are obvious town." Lurkers are good lynches if no obvious scum is there because they are unlikely to contribute, even as town, and there is a good possibility of being scum. These aren't my original ideas, these have been discussed by more experienced players. Do explain the contradiction you see here. + Show Spoiler + On November 26 2012 00:56 HeloKnight wrote: Oats: These posts are confusing. You say several times that you can't write a case from his posts thus far, in response to those asking you to explain yourself, but then you write a mini-case in the very same post. Why didn't you just write this case when people asked for it, instead of repeatedly saying that you can't write a case? You say that "trying to look casual" is a scum trait, but your first few posts are looking pretty casual: This post looks pretty "forced casual" too, but I don't know if smilies are the norm for Oats. Why is "trying to be casual" a scum trait when you are clearly trying to be casual yourself? He posts a long ass post about me contradicting myself but he just asks 1 question, why is trying to be casual a scum trait? I think the scum motivation for this post is to look like he is attacking me but he actually doesnt come up with a conclusion. The town motivation for this post is a) pressure you to explain more (and possibly find scum) and b) to point out some contradictions I saw in your posting. The question in this post was mostly rhetorical anyway. The conclusion is implied; "Oats is acting odd". + Show Spoiler + On November 26 2012 09:22 HeloKnight wrote: The most suspicious thing about yamato right now is the timing of his CC post (right after SDM posted his CC case), making it seem like he's trying to hop on/start a wagon. The problem is that I'm not confident that this makes him scum. He might have been, like he says, just commenting on the person in the spotlight. Right now, I would be more comfortable lynching Munk-E. He's had a grand total of two posts so far, and neither of them are very useful. The first post is just him answering Cheesecake's questions three, with a weird position completely against lurker lynching and a lot of jokes: This post could have been done by either alignment, but I would have expected a little more by the time he commented. In addition, this is about the definition of "forced casualness" (if anyone is still using that argument). The lurker lynching position is not very thought out. Yes, townies can lurk, but that doesn't make lynching them a "dumb idea". His second (and final) post is a commentary on Oats: He posts this after Oats has already been discussed a lot and repeats points that have already been said. One goal of the mafia is to continue discussing pointless things to waste time. In addition, he still hasn't provided opinions on any of the more recent "controversies". For some reason, no one has called him out yet (or mentioned him at all). I'm not confident in yamato yet, but he's at least posted some opinions and backed them up. Right now, I'd rather a M-E lynch. ##Vote: Munk-E All the things he applies to munk-e can be applied to himself too. No? I've posted more than twice, I don't continue discussing things after they are relevant, and I've given my position on many people. I will admit that I didn't contribute as much as I should have day one because I wasn't sure where to, but it wasn't to the extent of Munk-E Then he posts a list. You can't just point at someone and shout "List! List! Scum!" Lists are seen as scummy because they are often used to make one look like they are contributing without actually giving any opinions. For example, Aqua's post summarizing the lynch, had he not offered his conclusions at the end, would have been scummy. This "list" is entirely me giving my opinions, so it doesn't fall under the category of "contentless summary". + Show Spoiler + On November 28 2012 07:25 HeloKnight wrote: Helo's Complete List of Reads SDM: Strong town. The most active player, constantly probing for information, explaining his thoughts, and generally playing smart. Going through his filter you can see lots of very useful posts commenting on the situation. Very confident on this one. Aquanim: Leaning town. He pushed his Kickstart case, but admitted it had holes when he found them, which shows he's not just tunneling one player. Not a long filter, but generally good posts. Mr. Cheesecake: Leaning town. He's throwing suspicion onto many players, such as myself, yamato, and Jacob, which I see as a town trait. I think he should consider a town explanation on yamato's posts instead of just a scum one, and I think confirmation bias might be a factor. For instance, the post referenced in this case can also be explained by newbie town. Might be scum pushing for an easier mislynch, but I doubt it. His vote onto Munk was also odd, but he's offered an explanation that doesn't tell much, so I'll ignore it. yamato77 Null. I've offered my opinions on him many times, and I still don't know if he's town or scum. I think he really could be either. Lynching him feels like a coinflip to me. A lot will depend on what he does tomorrow. Kickstart: Null. Pushed Oats pretty hard early, which doesn't say much. He's done a pretty good job of explaining himself against multiple accusations, but that's most of what he's done. I'd like to hear a little more about others than just Oats. Jacob Strangelove: Heavily leaning scum. Nearly his entire filter is just one liners, with almost nothing of value. Anything he says would be easily faked by scum. He does nothing but ask useless questions and say pretty obvious things. Will probably write a full case up for tomorrow. Oatsmaster: I don't even know what to say. He's been basically trolling this whole game. He spams about useless stuff, and hasn't done anything to make me think he's town. The only real defense for him is the "too scummy to be scum" defense, and I don't find it very convincing. I refer people to CC's case on him for a good explanation of what I'm getting at. I'm out of time for right now, but I'll elaborate on whatever you all want when I'm back. What a list. Throwing suspicion around willy-nilly is actually a scum trait because they dont want people to be focused on only them... He has no original ideas and I posted a lot more since CC's post so it is not that relevant anymore. Throwing suspicion around puts pressure on both town and scum to start contributing more, which benefits town. You also get to see how people react under pressure which can give off "scumtells". No original ideas? Really? | ||
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Chromatically
United States1700 Posts
On November 29 2012 11:47 Oatsmaster wrote: Thanks helo, for posting that huge chunk which I think is good. ##Vote: Jacob Strangelove And WTF? You have a major scum read on me but sheep my case before I even respond to you? | ||
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Oatsmaster
United States16628 Posts
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Chromatically
United States1700 Posts
On November 29 2012 12:19 Oatsmaster wrote: I changed my mind. You just wrote up a case which, for some reason, you suddenly decided wasn't compelling? Care to elaborate? | ||
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Oatsmaster
United States16628 Posts
Then I saw your post. and agreed with it. Im playing so fucking badly.. | ||
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Chromatically
United States1700 Posts
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JacobStrangelove
Australia1572 Posts
On November 29 2012 11:35 HeloKnight wrote: JacobStrangelove JS is feeling really scummy to me. I didn't really notice this earlier because it felt like he was posting a lot, and he has been; he's got one of the longest filters in the game (after SDM). However, his posts don't have much substance at all. While reading this, keep in mind that he has already played two games as town and one as scum. Relatively speaking, he should know what he's doing. Oh hey so you know I played two games as town? That's news to me... I haven't read the rest of your case but I will when I get back. Two games as town? That would make me town this game. Oh tell me if I am so scum why am I town? I have only played two games total. One as scum and one as town. Or did your research fail you. I'll be back. | ||
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Chromatically
United States1700 Posts
On November 29 2012 12:47 JacobStrangelove wrote: Oh hey so you know I played two games as town? That's news to me... I haven't read the rest of your case but I will when I get back. Two games as town? That would make me town this game. Oh tell me if I am so scum why am I town? I have only played two games total. One as scum and one as town. Or did your research fail you. I'll be back. Oh oops I misread your first post. "Two one town one scum" Thought it said two town. My bad. | ||
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JacobStrangelove
Australia1572 Posts
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JacobStrangelove
Australia1572 Posts
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Kickstart
United States1941 Posts
You have had ample opportunity to change my mind by scum hunting and posting a decent case on anyone. Since you refuse to do so and your most recent posts are just more evidence that you refuse to do so I am putting my vote on you. You still have time to scum hunt and start playing the game - I suggest you do so. ##vote: Oatsmaster | ||
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Oatsmaster
United States16628 Posts
So I am guilty until I prove myself innocent? I am really finding it hard to make a good case on anyone. To the quality of Aqua and Helo. | ||
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Kickstart
United States1941 Posts
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JacobStrangelove
Australia1572 Posts
On November 29 2012 11:35 HeloKnight wrote: JacobStrangelove JS is feeling really scummy to me. I didn't really notice this earlier because it felt like he was posting a lot, and he has been; he's got one of the longest filters in the game (after SDM). However, his posts don't have much substance at all. While reading this, keep in mind that he has already played two games as town and one as scum. Relatively speaking, he should know what he's doing. First of all you were wrong with the number of games played. Secondly I post a lot as town and mafia. Funnily enough I post more massive content as mafia as it aids in confusion and disorientating people. However let us continue into your post. On November 29 2012 11:35 HeloKnight wrote: Early Day One: Early day one, he's posting a lot, and putting out some reads, but not coming to any conclusions. Whenever he puts out an read on someone, he'll also state another read that shows the opposite. He doesn't want to lock himself into one viewpoint, he wants to keep his options open. Examples: Ok, there is a difference between thinking though something, being wishy washy and trying to confuse someone. Something that frustrates me is people that see the world is black and white. Nothing is black in white if it was everybody would be lynched. You have to look into how the person plays (with oats does he play like kush?) You have to consider all the possibilities. If you want meta examples it’s what happened to me in my first town game. Now I am not going to lie. I also used this argument last scum game but the difference was I wasn’t thinking out loud I was trying to be spastic. Ask yourself does this look more like someone putting their thoughts into the chat or like someone trying to confuse people? On November 29 2012 11:35 HeloKnight wrote: He'll also just post things that don't have conclusions. Analysis is good as long as a conclusion is made from it, otherwise it is pointless. This is another small thing to make it look like he's contributing while not saying anything at all. Examples: This "analysis" shows nothing at all. There's a decent-sized paragraph who's only conclusion is that yamato's 'sleeping story', a minor issue at best, is probably true. Here he comments on Kickstart's meta a little, but he doesn't reach any real conclusions because "going of one game isn't strong". Another comment on Kickstart's meta, but still doesn't come up with a read for it. He also leaves himself this "backout option" again in case he needs to 180 later. Basically, early on day one I see what he's doing as posting a lot and trying to look like he's contributing, but not coming up with much. He did post a case on yamato, which is a good point for him. Apart from this, however, nothing. Do I have no conclusion? Some of these are questions. My conclusion is in the first part of the sentence; my other option is in the second part for example. “To me this looks like you said I am going to act like this and kinda stuck to it. Maybe you just want to improve your play” I think he is scum because of this, however he could also be town. It’s wifom I could say you are scum because of this, but then on day one would I really be sure? With the hour sleep time thing, it is something I do to check up on when people say stuff about their whereabouts in relation to set patterns. After doing the work to find out I may as well let you know the results. The main thing to gather from the section though is yeah, I was suspicious of killing(lol just found this... can’t get over my first game it seems[I meant kick btw]) and asking him questions. Going into the wonderful world of wifom again I would be far more bothered as scum to make other people look like scum wouldn’t I? As town I would merely want to find out if they were scum. So by that logic wouldn’t I be more sure of my “reads” if I was scum? It’s wifom but think about it. Do my posts have scum or town motivation? Let me answer that question they have town motivation... On November 29 2012 11:35 HeloKnight wrote: The Lynch: JS's first vote is on yamato, one of his top two scum reads. He says that he doesn't want to lynch Munk-E for "listed reasons" which I am unable to find, I assume he is wary because no one is defending him. Okay, he votes for his top scum read. After three votes are on Munk-E and CC considers voting for him, JS "reevaluates" his opinion of him. He first says his reason for not voting Munk-E, but then ignores that reason and comes up with a reason why Munk is now scummy. Now, I personally agree more with the second reason for voting Munk than the first reason for not voting him, but that's not the point here. The point is that he had a reason that he didn't want to lynch Munk, but abandoned it while it was still valid (in his eyes) when people started to vote for Munk. The bolded line doesn't even make sense, those aren't scum strategies. Concerned about being seen as sheeping? Nervous? I will break this section up, The listed reasons... First I didn’t see the need to repeat everything I or others said on the topic. But to find the reasons for you. 1. Coin flip 2. I mentioned it was a cop out 3. “Also votes are slowly being put on munkey. While there is no inherent problem with this there is also going to be no opposition to this town has no reason to not vote him and with no opposition mafa don't either. Just food for thought... (ie: mafa probably don't mind us voting for munkey) Little early to tell though. and completely wifom.” 4. I thought yamato was more scum “but then ignores that reason and comes up with a reason why Munk is now scummy. “ I would like to note that munk-e wasn’t posting before this. Then suddenly he turns up close to lynch. This wasn’t a factor before this point so it wasn’t a reason to have. “The bolded line doesn't even make sense, those aren't scum strategies.” It’s one of mine lol I missed almost every lynch until like an hour before last game, (half a hour taken up with reading the thread of course despite actually being a fast reader) About the sheeping thing, yeah. People often think someone is sheeping without looking at the situation. For example munk-e turned up in what I deemed a scum like manner. Two posts all game and suddenly heaps of posts trying to defend him in the hour before lynch. On November 29 2012 11:35 HeloKnight wrote: And here he actually votes for yamato. He says that he can no longer vote for yamato because Kick and Munk (suddenly someone he is highly suspicious of) are both voting for him. This isn't a valid reason for not voting for your scum read. Just because they are both voting for yamato doesn't make him any less scummy, it just means that Kick and Munk are also suspicious of him. It was possible that Kick and Munk were a scumteam both voting for yamato (???), but it's much more likely that not all of his reads were correct. In fact, one of Munk, Kick, and yamato couldn't be scum because there are only two. Instead of voting for his top scum read, he finds a way to sheep the current wagon. Votecount at the time for reference: + Show Spoiler + On November 27 2012 10:06 iamperfection wrote: Votecount: Mr. Cheesecake (0): Oatsmaster(0): Yamato77 (3): Munk-E (4):HeloKnight,Sonic Death Monkey,Yamato77,Mr. Cheesecake Kickstart (2)Aquanim, Not voting (0): If you see your (or another's) vote to be wrong, it would be kind to notify us. Currently Munk-e is set to be lynched less than 2 hours remain It's important that the point of this section isn't that people voting Munk-E are scum. It's that people sheeping the Munk lynch when they think others are scummier than him is suspicious. In summary, early on day one, JS tries to look like he's contributing a lot without putting many concrete opinions out there. He gets a scum read on yamato, but votes for Munk instead as the wagon takes off. Trying to look like you are contributing without doing so, not providing clear opinions, and sheeping wagons are all traits of scum. [Note: I have removed paragraphs from some quotes for length. They do not change the meaning of the quoted portion and no words or sentences have been changed.] ##Vote: JacobStrangelove So you are saying I sheeped onto munk-e to avoid a lynch on yamato? I would only do this (fine wifom warning) if I was scum with a scum partner yamato. Why would I want to be connected with a mislynch otherwise? I have to admit I was wrong to vote munk-e but he had just popped up seemed suspicious and I was having some doubts about my yamato case. So I took the chicken’s way out. As scum I could just keep my vote on yamato even if he was my partner. The tide had already changed in munk-e’s disfavour. | ||
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Oatsmaster
United States16628 Posts
On November 29 2012 13:45 Oatsmaster wrote: Pressure vote huh? So I am guilty until I prove myself innocent? I am really finding it hard to make a good case on anyone. To the quality of Aqua and Helo. Kickstart You cant read the bolded part? | ||
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JacobStrangelove
Australia1572 Posts
Explain what parts of his case you like why you agree with it... something just do something... | ||
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Oatsmaster
United States16628 Posts
I agree with it because it makes sense. | ||
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JacobStrangelove
Australia1572 Posts
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Oatsmaster
United States16628 Posts
Also I highly dislike you trying to disprove yamato's sleeping story. If we lynch someone cause they lie about that, we might as well stop playing. | ||
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EPT
but if I vote munk-e now it will seem like I am sheeping. Also I don't see how not voting for the guy with the most votes was sheeping (unless he was actually mafia) particularly when people were leaving the one I voted for.
