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@ Rad
I would like you to answer my previous questions for you, especially the one with the reference to a possible Clarity PM to marv and the one where I ask you to summarize your scum hunting D1/N1.
By the way, the fact that you are using the information that you were not NKed to switch your focus to the people that you were having townreads on in a list that you made ages ago is utter bullshit. Because there is no way for you to know why you not being NKed. Absolutely no way !
Seriously, what was that shit ?
Do you personally believe that Clarity is blue ?
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On November 07 2012 07:15 Obzy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 07:03 Clarity_nl wrote:On November 07 2012 06:48 Obzy wrote:
Hmmm. I'm sort of glad you're posting this. How am I supposed to take this other than you're glad it was me who made a case on you, because right now I'm probably the least credible active player. Your whole "I feel defeated but I will not be defeated!" attitude makes no sense to me. I'm glad you are posting a case on me, specifically. Heh. Being called out in general gives a clear indication that my posting will be listened to when I respond, but getting called out by you makes my trust of Djo's JK claim increase, since he was been beating his head against you for hours this morning. You posting a case that I know is false makes me believe more in his case, which helps me trust his claim and innocence. A team composed of him and Sylver was only something I mused about if you were town. Maybe you're town and your case against me is just flat-out incorrect, you're just misguided. That's possible. But I think you think that too; you didn't vote. You clearly say "Obzy is Mafia" in fancy red highlighting and you do not vote. >_>
@Obzy
Regarding the bolded above, are you saying that you think clarity is town because his lack of voting suggests that he probably isn't sure enough about his case enough to vote you? Or am I reading your statement there wrong? I don't see why clarity would think his case is misguided and not vote if he's scum. Or are you claiming some sort of scum slip from him not voting?
Mainly "but I think you think that too" is super confusing. If you could clarify what you meant there that would be great.
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@ Rad
I think he wanted to say something like, "I think you know that I'm town too"
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On November 07 2012 07:30 Clarity_nl wrote:@ Alsn + Show Spoiler +On November 06 2012 03:00 Clarity_nl wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 02:32 Djodref wrote:
@ Clarity
Could you at least tell me when you asked marv your question ?
I'm only asking for when right now ^^ Date: 11/5/12 2:48 Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 02:29 Obzy wrote:On November 06 2012 02:13 Clarity_nl wrote:
@ Obzy
The reason I asked marv before Cheese claiming was because I noticed what Cheese did. The OP Townie does not match with the PM townie. The PM townie flavor is in every PM. How do you conclude from this that I am blue or scum? Because whether or not the text matches in the OP compared to the PM doesn't matter. I'm certain that every single person noticed this, but nobody else (has mentioned) PM'd Marv specifically asking if the VT flavor text meant VT. It seemed fairly self-explanatory. And - I was under the impression that Cheese's claim was technically when he first put Regular Fapper at the end of his post; to him [as it turned out], that was a claim to all other VTs to take notice of that would not be recognized by blue or mafia. I don't agree that Cheese's actual claim was later- it was clear to him from the beginning. That's not what I asked. I asked if everyone was aware of the VT flavor. If I'm VT -> I want to make sure if I should claim (when the time comes) Townie or Regular Fapper, and I wonder if scum/blue knows flavour. If I'm Blue -> I want to know if scum knows VT flavor, and if VT knows the rest knows flavour. If I'm Scum -> I want to know if blues know flavor, and if VT know the rest knows flavour. Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 02:29 Obzy wrote:
Don't try to convince me that you aren't scum, convince me(and everybody else) who is. Easy for you to say, there are only so many hours in a day and I spent all of mine defending myself, and still am. I was hoping today would be calmer because it's the nightcycle, but it seems people would rather push and push and push rather than collect their thoughts. Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 02:43 Djodref wrote:On November 06 2012 02:01 Clarity_nl wrote:On November 06 2012 02:00 Djodref wrote:On November 06 2012 01:52 Clarity_nl wrote:No, I tried to stop him from saying that because if he did, as town, it would be moronic. And as you pointed out, I was starting to doubt my case on debears. Do you really not see a scum motive for Cheese pointing me out as "confirmed town" Again, you seem to think I had special information after marv posted that everyone knows VT flavor, but I didn't, you were just as informed as I was. We all voted for Cheese.Town Clarity has forgot Cheese for a while No, I was just kinda busy answering 1001 questions from you and debears. I was busy defending myself. @ ClarityAre you trying to deny your responsibility in the lynch ? Daoud did not vote for Cheese because he really believed that debears was scum... I have explained my reasons for lynching Cheese. I was being stupid but at least it makes some sense. I don't understand how you could not recognize that he was town and genuinely believing in the power of the VT flavor. How could you believe he was scum ? The only reason I see is that you were mafia and too happy to see a possibility to escape your lynch to think straight. I was already safe from lynching before I switched. @ ClarityOk, that's cool, if you were safe when you switched, it's sure that your vote did not mean anything. It does mean something, but what it meant (in my eyes) was: "I'm having doubts about debears being scum, especially with the way he's reacting to all of this" Cheese looked scummiest to me at that point, and YES, it made it so that I didn't get lynched. Surprise, a 100% wrong lynch looked worse to me than the person who looked scummiest to me. (See, I can do sarcasm as well) My ambiguity is because the actual PM has quotes by marv, and will reveal my role.
@ Clarity
I found in your filter something that strongly indicates that you are VT. I don't think you can be blue.
I don't understand what you are bitching about if you are VT.
In the case I'm right and you are VT, what is your fucking reason to not reveal that you are VT ?
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Oh, sorry. I meant - I think that Clarity is aware that his case is incorrect. I knew he'd vote immediately after I pointed it out, it would be utterly insane to not do so (and indeed, he does so within a minute or so). But if you spend the time to put up a big case, why wouldn't you vote with it, unless you've already voted? Posting a case should mean that you're so convinced that you are willing to put yourself in the spotlight and ready to defend your opinion.
But he didn't vote? I don't like the word "scumslip", but voting sure is a thing to forget in your case >_>; IMO. He even took the time for nice formatting and font coloring.
My wording above (that you quoted) is poor, I noticed it after posting but didn't really want to post an EBWOP. I definitely don't think Clarity is town due to the lack of voting, I meant to show that he seemed insincere in calling me Mafia since he didn't actually post a vote. If that makes sense ^^
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EBWOP: it doesn't strongly indicate that you are VT, it strongly indicates that you are not blue...
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What the fuck, you've been saying I'm blue or scum for the last 30 hours.
I'm being vague, and continue being vague, because it might entice scum to NK me, if I ever get out of your 24/7 scope.
Claiming does nothing for me.
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ebwop I posted that during night. I had to convince everyone that I'm as likely to be blue as I am to be VT
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On November 07 2012 08:45 Obzy wrote:
Oh, sorry. I meant - I think that Clarity is aware that his case is incorrect. I knew he'd vote immediately after I pointed it out, it would be utterly insane to not do so (and indeed, he does so within a minute or so). But if you spend the time to put up a big case, why wouldn't you vote with it, unless you've already voted? Posting a case should mean that you're so convinced that you are willing to put yourself in the spotlight and ready to defend your opinion.
But he didn't vote? I don't like the word "scumslip", but voting sure is a thing to forget in your case >_>; IMO. He even took the time for nice formatting and font coloring.
My wording above (that you quoted) is poor, I noticed it after posting but didn't really want to post an EBWOP. I definitely don't think Clarity is town due to the lack of voting, I meant to show that he seemed insincere in calling me Mafia since he didn't actually post a vote. If that makes sense ^^
@ Obzy
That's not a good point at all. Mafia players and town players forget to vote all the time. It's not alignment indicative.
Please be nice with Clarity and discuss with him by the way, we don't know for sure that he is mafia...
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On November 07 2012 07:40 Clarity_nl wrote:
@ Rad and Alsn
How do you feel about Obzy's comments specifically addressed to me so far.
So, basically I get a null read on his reply to your case. I need to think more about if the apologies are a tell or not but there's nothing he could have said about them that would have meant anything one way or the other.
The question I gave to him above concerns me. I'm not sure how to read it though so I've asked for him to clarify it.
Not sure how to take the newbie help advice from him. I don't know that it fits the situation. Basically I think it means that when you're making a case on someone, you don't need to try to convince them they're scum - they already know if they are or aren't - you need to convince the rest of town. But that doesn't really apply to your case against him, and he acknowledges that fact, so not sure why he brought that up. I guess he really just doesn't care about your case on him unless it gains traction? If he thought you were town, maybe he'd care and want to convince you? Seems reasonable as a town, but also could be something a scum would say so null tell I suppose.
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@ Rad
Do you believe his behavior in his last couple of posts is consistent with his behavior in the rest of the game
Actually I'd like Alsn to answer this too.
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On November 07 2012 08:46 Clarity_nl wrote:
What the fuck, you've been saying I'm blue or scum for the last 30 hours.
I'm being vague, and continue being vague, because it might entice scum to NK me, if I ever get out of your 24/7 scope.
Claiming does nothing for me.
That's why I want to see you dead.
Some things point in direction that you are not blue, some things point in direction that you are not VT.
Conclusion -> you are scum
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At this point I'm leaning towards Clarity being scum. I'm still undecided whether or not Rad is his scum partner exploiting his own town cred to defend Clarity or if he's just genuinely concerned that Clarity has been unfairly attacked(considering Djod's aggressiveness, I don't see how I can discount the possibility of the latter).
Most importantly, I initially sympathized with Clarity's statement that Djod was being unfair to him (see this post, first paragraph) and that that's why Clarity decided to make a case against debears. On the other hand, he said he had a "case on hand" against Djod if it looked like he was about to be lynched. That actually gives me the impression that he could have had the case against debears "on hand" too, just waiting for me or someone else to make a case at a similar time so it wouldn't look like he was sheeping. I kept thinking Djod might actually be scum and that Clarity was just stuck in an unfortunate situation, but seeing as Djod has now made a believable claim as JK, I think the likelihood of Clarity just not wanting to be "stuck" with a case against someone he knows to be town has gone up dramatically.
I think the Cheese claim probably came as a great relief, as Clarity had said he was "doubting himself" because no one else thought debears was scum. If Cheese hadn't claimed, Clarity would probably have had to post the case against Djodref at some point in order to stay consistent. In fact, his extreme unwillingness to post his case against Djod now has me very concerned. Why would he not post it? Even as Djodref was attacking Clarity enough that Rad felt the need to step in and defend him. Why would he not just say why he thought Djod was scummy? Now he probably never can, because Djod has a believable claim. But what am I supposed to think here? That he just wanted to give Djod another chance? Why?
He's now shown that he's perfectly willing to attack someone for using the newbie card like Obzy has done, but he was never willing to post his case on Djod... why, exactly? I find his reluctance to do so very scummy and I can't find enough town reasons in his posting to see why I should forgive that.
So without further ado:
##Vote: Clarity_nl
I'd really like it if a majority of the thread actually make up their mind well ahead of lynch so we don't get another "eeeh, I don't really wanna lynch clarity or debears but I don't know who the fuck else we should lynch" at ~3-4 hours before lynch.
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EBWOP: To my last point, you don't necessarily need to have made up your minds, but at the very least try and tell the thread why you wouldn't want to lynch anyone well in advance of the deadline so that we can at least consider alternate targets.
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On November 07 2012 08:51 Djodref wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 08:46 Clarity_nl wrote:
What the fuck, you've been saying I'm blue or scum for the last 30 hours.
I'm being vague, and continue being vague, because it might entice scum to NK me, if I ever get out of your 24/7 scope.
Claiming does nothing for me. That's why I want to see you dead. Some things point in direction that you are not blue, some things point in direction that you are not VT. Conclusion -> you are scum
You've wanted me dead for the last 48 hours. Somehow your reasons keep changing but the outcome does not. I urge you to step back, take a break, and come back with fresh eyes. Then re-read.
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Bleh. I had typed up a response to your post, Djo, but accidentally closed the tab  I don't want to retype it; but basically, I don't really understand why you'd want me to rationally discuss with Clarity when you intend to lynch him. I'm gonna post what I wrote so far (It's a long filter analysis up until about where Djo starts attacking Clarity).
+ Show Spoiler +Okay so I'm typing this in a text file so if the formatting is stupid I apologize in advance lol. (sorry for the lol, da0ud ^^) With regards to Clarity and why he is scum: I am going to spoiler this because I'm basically just going through his filter point by point and taking things that I can comment on. + Show Spoiler +I think the two things to take away from all this though:
- Debears defended Cheese
- Djodref tunneling Cheese All three of these people are town. Just as a side note. (If somebody would like my thoughts on Djo's JK claim, I can deliver.) Last three pages was djo, you and me. Still no word from da0ud and sylver.
I think you are wrong in saying Obzy is useless. He might not have posted a lot but he makes good points or asks decent questions when he does, maybe you feel that way because he's biggest post is directed at you? This was in response to debears asking Clar if anything stood out as weird - I don't really think it's particularly important, but I thought it funny that he commented he didn't think I was useless at that time period. [With regards to Clar's list of reads] Considered Djo slightly scum, null on deb, null on Cheese. Slightly town on myself. So with all that said, I only have two slight scumreads on Alsn and Djo, I am no longer suspect of Alsn, at least not as much. Although he seems to have a hard on for debears and djo he's making decent points and trying to further conversation. Cool, so Alsn was down with debears and Djo. Mental note I guess. Cautions Rad about the perils of not having any reads - Ehn Comments at 16:22 Nov4 that he'll be making a case (or multiple) that day, to Djo. Specifically namedrops Hapa and comments he'll ignore the advice people follow, taking issue with its quality. (Apologizes later.) (In a response to Djo): On November 04 2012 17:20 Clarity_nl wrote:
Top 3 choices in my eyes are Debears, Sylver and you.
As for people who haven't answered my questions: Alsn, Cheese, Sylver. I'll have to look and see if he pushes Sylver at all. He mentions Cheese not looking scummy ~16ish hours before the deadline. Posts a defense from debears' post. On November 05 2012 02:54 Clarity_nl wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2012 02:49 Djodref wrote:On November 05 2012 02:44 Rad wrote:On November 05 2012 02:41 Djodref wrote:
So it means that you have confirmation bias against me. You don't want to give me a chance to defend myself, you have already made up your mind and you want to see me dead.
It means that you are now 100% convinced that I am scum (in the case where you are town) which is stupid because I am not scum and townies should always keep their mind open or that you are scum yourself. Lol djo... you realize you just said "your argument is stupid because I'm not scum." Honestly I would be pissed off if Clarity is town and do not want to discuss his case against me beforehand because he is afraid that I could talk my way out of the lynch. I don't understand why a townie would want to see me dead so much. If you are town you can talk your way out of a lynch regardless. It's not like I would've posted my case an hour beforehand, right about now is when I would've posted it. I am currently working on a different case while also answering questions, so please bear with me. I will keep djo's case on hand in case I get lynched. I will post it before the deadline if it seems I'll die. Otherwise saving it for D2 Okay so apparently he had planned on posting a case on Djo today. That obviously will not occur unless da0ud claims JK or something, but w/e. I find the line "If you are town you can talk your way out of a lynch regardless" somewhat amusing; as a side note - I don't really know if he's talking about Djo or just in general. He posts a case on debears, that looks fairly legitimate if the knowledge that debears was VT didn't exist. (Votes DB at that time) - When debears asks him to post his case on Djo, he chooses not to, largely because he intends to on Day 2 or if he is going to be lynched. He (afterwards) mentions that he doesn't want to post a case on Djo if Djo won't be there to defend himself - I really don't like this. Why would you care if the person wasn't around to defend themselves if you think they're scum? And if you don't think they're scum, why would you post a case on them? I guess he can have points for Chivalry, but I think that he didn't want to post a case because he knew Djo was town. Clar has some commentary on how staying neutral isn't bad D1, I disagree with this, but I've already covered that in this post. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=379514¤tpage=40#785(It happens to be the one that I mention not feeling comfortable about voting CC - this is still taking place before debears picks up that CC is trying to claim.) Then the CC claim stuff - By this point, I had voted Clar largely due to process of elimination. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=379514¤tpage=37#730I liked Djo and debears' cases, I didn't like Clarity's case on debears, and between Clar and Sylv, I voted Clar. (I largely got my town read on db _because_ he hadn't gone and pointed out that I was sort of shitty and thus Mafia, despite having questioned me.) After CC's claim, Clarity mentioned that assumptions couldn't be made based on host behavior. This didn't make sense to me unless he was blue or scum, which he addressed later- I couldn't really find fault with that at the time, it seemed like he had just been thinking more than I had if he was VT yet asked about the VT flavor. He brings up a quote of mine telling him to convince me who _is_ scum, rather than trying to convince me that he isn't- he basically says that he's too busy defending himself to push his scumreads. On November 05 2012 09:28 Clarity_nl wrote:
I think if Cheese flips red there's no way debears is scum.... 9 player mafia and scum busses eachother day 1? No way. Given that he'd posted a case on DB, this looks relevant; but if he knew Cheese had no chance of flipping red, it doesn't hurt the fact he's only actually made a case on debears (up until this point) at all. Gets angry at CC for not defending himself (I concur with this) but then votes him for his defense being WIFOM, over his scumread of debears? _And then says, On November 05 2012 09:42 Clarity_nl wrote:
Wait, so you're voting debears to save yourself when you're VT? What the hell. Debears was his scumread and vote up until this point, and when CC changes his vote to be on Debears, he questions it. Why why why. There should be zero confusion if CC really was VT, given that he is basically agreeing with what Clarity had assumed up until this point; but once Clarity switches, he questions it. Clar mentions that the logical thing to do would be to jump on him to save himself, instead of Djo, then debears, then him. Djo is town, debears is town, ??? The comment looks like it's trying to indicate that "Clarity must be town, CC did not considering jumping onto him at first" to me.
I will try to continue this later tonight, but I'm done for the moment. I'm going to catch up a few posts in the thread and then be afk for a couple of hours (until my work day ends, I get home, and I finish eating dinner) - I wanted to get my point-by-point thoughts to Alsn before he had to go to sleep.
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On November 07 2012 08:51 Clarity_nl wrote:
@ Rad
Do you believe his behavior in his last couple of posts is consistent with his behavior in the rest of the game
Actually I'd like Alsn to answer this too. Who? Djod? Or Obzy?
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On November 07 2012 08:29 Djodref wrote:
@ Rad
I would like you to answer my previous questions for you, especially the one with the reference to a possible Clarity PM to marv and the one where I ask you to summarize your scum hunting D1/N1.
By the way, the fact that you are using the information that you were not NKed to switch your focus to the people that you were having townreads on in a list that you made ages ago is utter bullshit. Because there is no way for you to know why you not being NKed. Absolutely no way !
Seriously, what was that shit ?
Do you personally believe that Clarity is blue ?
I will not spend time summarizing my scum hunting d1/n1. If you want to make a case on me, you spend the time, but that would be time poorly spent because I'm town.
Remind me what question you had about a clarity PM to marv and if I haven't answered it, and I think it's an appropriate question to answer, I'll do that.
Shit happened at night, debears got killed, I instantly had a read. I wanted to put pressure right then and there, so that's what I did. What happened from it? You and me talked for hours. Obzy has broken out of his shell. Not much from sylver yet. My original ideas for why I FoS'd you may be terrible and conspiracy theorist like (or maybe they're spot on, we'll find out soon  ), but you can't deny they got conversation going.
I believe clarity is VT. I will be surprised if he's blue, but I will say that there was a moment during the chaos that I read him as blue. ATM I believe VT. I wouldn't be blown the fuck away if he's scum, but I definitely read him town right now.
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Obzy. I'm pretty sure djod has been consistent.
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On November 07 2012 02:30 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 01:34 sylverfyre wrote:
Djodref, What do YOU think we would have accomplished if went through with confirming a bunch of VT through debears method on day 1? To be fair, if Cheese had the right assumption and that it was actually possible to "confirm" all VT's, it would probably have been pretty good for town. The problem was, what was to stop a non-VT(either blue or scum) from just saying "uuh, I didn't know everyone knew?" after debears asked that question? There was just no way to confirm anyone as anything considering what we now know, so stop it with the absolutely ridiculous speculation. However, if it had actually been possible to confirm all the VTs, scum would probably have been in a fishy situation. They would know who the blues were, but they wouldn't know which blues they were. At the same time, all the VTs would have known who not to lynch, in addition to the blues(assuming there's two of them, which is just a guess at this point) knowing among which three players the scum were hiding. That would've probably been a pretty difficult situation for scum because even if they night kill both blues, no VT is going to lynch another VT in a scenario like that. So there's no way for scum to proceed than to NK VTs and hope town lynches the blue players instead of scum. This would still leave 3 VT vs 2 scum in D3 though. I think Cheese just made a mistake in not thinking it through, as a scenario like that would include no "proper" play at all from the game participants. So if that really was the case Cheese claiming like that would have meant that marv probably would have cancelled and restarted the game with new roles. It's unfortunate that we didn't have enough time to think it through, because in hindsight I think Cheese's argument about "why would I blow up the thread as scum?" looks pretty convincing actually. That's the last thing I'll say on the matter. The fact is that there's absolutely no way to confirm or deny anything with regards to that clusterfuck. With that in mind, like the late debears said, going forward we should use legit scum hunting, not WIFOM bullshit.
Morning just catching up with the thread (only bottom of page 64 so far)
One quick reaction to your post before I forget.
I personally think that if we had confirmed all the VTs it would only have made sense for scum to kill them at night and not the blue. They want to keep uncertainty and don't want to be outnumbered by VTs.
I think this is as well the reason Debears got killed cause he is the one who got the most genuine reaction to CC claim.
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EPT
