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On November 07 2012 05:13 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 05:09 Rad wrote:On November 07 2012 04:59 Alsn wrote:On November 07 2012 04:51 Rad wrote:On November 07 2012 04:26 Alsn wrote:On November 07 2012 04:17 Rad wrote:
@alsn
You think it's pretty likely, do you? Can you explain why? Because it just fits? I'm still going to see if there's anything inherently contradictory about it. But the fact remains my suspicions against Cheese were similar to what I felt about you at the time. You were extremely unwilling to vote for anyone of Cheese, debears, Clarity. Two of them are now confirmed to be town, and the last has long been suspected of being scum. @alsnI wasn't convinced of who I should vote. I didn't want to vote clarity, for the reasons I stated in the first list I made. I wanted to vote debears but no one else did, so I was questioning myself (also I was considering since he's the most active, I shouldn't vote him). I was also reading sylver as scum but there was no lynch potential on him. So I had clarity (who I was leaning town) or ___? Then the cheese incident happened and everything went into chaos. Because of that chaos, I got 4 reads: 1. Cheese town - his reasons for claiming the first time were clear to me, but he didn't keep it under wraps. He kept spitting it out like VTs didn't notice, and then he straight up spelled it out to debears. This looked genuine to me because I understood his thought process.
2. debears town - his interactions with cheese and his agreeing with sylver being suspicious for not voting him when he still had a chance to be lynched, those things made me realize he was town (VT due to the interactions with cheese)
3. clarity probably town - also due to his interactions with cheese, not as strong, I thought he might be blue but I was leaning VT due to him claiming he PM'd the host. 4. da0ud - town, balls of steel to jump on debears, if debears gets lynched there he and cheese are prime suspects for next 2 lynches. If he's scum, he knows debears is town, so voting cheese is much safer because everyone else is already doing it. This is a main reason I find sylver scummy, for not jumping to debears when he had a chance (because if scum, he knows debears is town, and him staying on cheese is much safer). Now that's either just a straight up lie. Or you have a very weird definition of what town should do. You are now claiming that you were unsure of who to vote leading up to the lynch, but in point 2) you say you "realised he was town" yet you still voted for him? That makes no sense. I'm thinking you're just lying through your teeth here. You wanted your vote to sit on debears because you wanted to make it look like you believed the people who were wary of a Cheese lynch since you knew he would flip town. @alsnHe was scum hunting when he had a chance to be lynched. I think that's super townie. He wasn't trying to divert attention from himself possibly getting lynched, he was pointing out scummy behavior at a good time when that information was important. It was important to get sylver's response to that asap because it didn't make sense for him to not jump to his biggest scum tell. I threw the idea out there and he confirmed it was suspicious at that moment when it might be bad for him to point it out. I think scum debears ignores my comment about sylver and possibly revisits it later if sylver is town. The sylver thing happened after I had my vote on debears, and is the point where it all fit together for me. His interactions with cheese + the sylver comment had me convinced. I didn't switch back to cheese at that point because I still had a higher town read on cheese than debears, due to debears trying to blue hunt which was confusing at that point. Now you're deliberately misunderstanding me. You lied because: You say you didn't want to vote for debears because you thought debears was town. Yet you voted for debears. You voted for someone you at the time claim you thought was town
@alsn
Can you please point out where I said I didn't want to vote for debears because I thought debears was town? I see myself saying the exact opposite here:
On November 07 2012 04:17 Rad wrote:
I wasn't convinced of who I should vote. I didn't want to vote clarity, for the reasons I stated in the first list I made. I wanted to vote debears but no one else did, so I was questioning myself (also I was considering since he's the most active, I shouldn't vote him). I was also reading sylver as scum but there was no lynch potential on him. So I had clarity (who I was leaning town) or ___?
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On November 07 2012 05:19 Clarity_nl wrote:
@ Rad
You had town reads on both so you voted for the lesser townread?
Why didn't you switch to me or Djo?
After the sylver comment, I had town reads on both. I voted for debears before that. I did not want to switch to cheese because debears' blue hunting still had me baffled, so he was the lesser of the 2 town reads.
I didn't switch to you because I told cheese straight up I don't feel comfortable voting you (had a town read on you). I had a scum read on debears at the point where I switched to him. I had a town read on djo (see my list), but the scenario never presented itself to vote for him so not sure why you're bringing him up. Cheese said he'd vote for djo right then if he had a chance (an answer to a question I asked him) and if cheese jumped, I might have just given cheese all my confidence and jumped because in my mind he was confirmed VT. Note my town read on djo was "djo doesn't make any sense and is just being djo." Remember I helped get him lynched last game when he was town and I simply don't know how to read him.
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On November 07 2012 05:17 Rad wrote:
@alsn
At the point I voted for debears, I thought cheese was town, and I still had a scum read on debears. I did not think his interactions with cheese alone necessarily confirmed him VT to me. When da0ud came in and voted debears, I saw that as a better candidate than cheese because I still considered him scum. It was the sylver comment that pushed it over the edge and everything made sense to me. Even then, I had a higher town read on cheese due to debear's blue hunting being confusing as hell, so I stuck with my vote. You're still trying to explain away your 4 point post where you explicitly say the reason you were uncertain who to vote leading up to lynch was that you had a town read on debears(point 2). Yet you still voted him. You can't take back saying that no matter how hard you try. So either you're lying about what you actually thought at the time, or you think it's ok to vote for your town reads.
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On November 07 2012 05:22 Rad wrote:
@alsn
Can you please point out where I said I didn't want to vote for debears because I thought debears was town? I see myself saying the exact opposite here:
Sure, I can:
On November 07 2012 04:51 Rad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 04:26 Alsn wrote:On November 07 2012 04:17 Rad wrote:
@alsn
You think it's pretty likely, do you? Can you explain why? Because it just fits? I'm still going to see if there's anything inherently contradictory about it. But the fact remains my suspicions against Cheese were similar to what I felt about you at the time. You were extremely unwilling to vote for anyone of Cheese, debears, Clarity. Two of them are now confirmed to be town, and the last has long been suspected of being scum. @alsnI wasn't convinced of who I should vote. I didn't want to vote clarity, for the reasons I stated in the first list I made. I wanted to vote debears but no one else did, so I was questioning myself (also I was considering since he's the most active, I shouldn't vote him). I was also reading sylver as scum but there was no lynch potential on him. So I had clarity (who I was leaning town) or ___? Then the cheese incident happened and everything went into chaos. * Because of that chaos, I got 4 reads: 1. Cheese town - his reasons for claiming the first time were clear to me, but he didn't keep it under wraps. He kept spitting it out like VTs didn't notice, and then he straight up spelled it out to debears. This looked genuine to me because I understood his thought process. 2. debears town - his interactions with cheese and his agreeing with sylver being suspicious for not voting him when he still had a chance to be lynched, those things made me realize he was town (VT due to the interactions with cheese) 3. clarity probably town - also due to his interactions with cheese, not as strong, I thought he might be blue but I was leaning VT due to him claiming he PM'd the host. 4. da0ud - town, balls of steel to jump on debears, if debears gets lynched there he and cheese are prime suspects for next 2 lynches. If he's scum, he knows debears is town, so voting cheese is much safer because everyone else is already doing it. This is a main reason I find sylver scummy, for not jumping to debears when he had a chance (because if scum, he knows debears is town, and him staying on cheese is much safer). In this post you are explaining to me why you were so uncertain leading up to the lynch. Take special note to my red star and your point 2.
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You didn't say that you wouldn't vote for debears. You said that you got a read from the chaos that debears was town. Yet you voted for him. A town read.
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@alsn
Because of the chaos, I got those 4 reads. The chaos includes sylver's lack of switching to debears, and debear's noticing I had pointed it out and continuing his scum hunt instead of holding off. I do not say anywhere that I thought debears was town when I voted him.
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Anyway, I've gotten way caught up in this whole JK claim chaos. I'll really go check if I can't find a way to see if it's just a coincidence that this all fits or what. But at this point, I'm getting a pretty strong scum read from Rad. He's said outright that he was against pretty much all lynch wagons D1, yet been unable to really point to any real scum reads himself. We now know that two of the wagons were against townies, which is a pretty good reason for scum not wanting to get behind a lynch.
Basically, it's way too convenient for scum to get away with simply saying "look, all I can see are town!", because if that was an acceptable excuse, how the hell could we hold people accountable for seemingly not scum hunting?
That being said, I don't discount the possibility of say, Obzy, sylver or even da0ud being scum and Rad just not finding either of the lynch candidates so far scummy enough, but from what I've seen so far, the only one I'm inclined to agree with in that group is sylver. I'll definitely take another look, starting now as I don't want to get too caught up in this whole thing, if Djod's claim doesn't hold up, it's bound to come down crashing on him. Like I said, there's a lot of time left. I just found that when I thought about Djod's claim and what it meant, Rad + Clarity being scum seemed really likely due to the way things have progressed so far.
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Rad, yea I suppose upon closer inspection that may have been what you meant. I just thought I had caught you in a perfect scum slip/lie and didn't want to let you off the hook. I see now what you meant about wanting to vote debears and how da0ud going for him makes sense.
I still find you scummy for the reasons I mentioned, but I'll look into the other possibilities as promised.
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One last thing though Rad, if you thought the reason for Djod's tunnel vision on Clarity was that he was cop and had gotten a red result. Why would you assume that Clarity was framed and innocent and not actually scum? Has Clarity truly been that pro-town to you?
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@alsn
I read clarity as town, somewhat confirmed by the cheese incident but not completely. I read him as town before that, but I was convinced more after it. Because i truly believe clarity is town, I was trying to figure out why djo would be so hardcore on getting him lynched today, like it's his one and only mission. I started to read djo as town due to this, and then i realized maybe he's cop and got a red read on clarity. A town clarity is pretty much the perfect frame target, because most people want him dead. Tell me, was there a better target for a cop to check than clarity? Is there a better target to frame than clarity? The possibility just made sense to me.
Of course, clarity could be scum, djo could be a cop, and he could have gotten a legit red read there. Anyway, the whole situation convinced me djo was a cop, not that clarity was necessarily town, but I was pretty sure cop djo got a red read on clarity.
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I think everyone in this game so far has said Obzy looks newb town. I agreed with them. But the more I look at his filter, the more uses of "I suck, I'm just a newbie" I find. This could be lack of confidence, but it's convenient, isn't it?
I'm sure most of us here have read the XXX analysis thread by Ver, and if you haven't I recommend it.
In this, Ver explains how town could have had an easy scum lynch on day 1, Misder.
Ver pointed out that apologizing a lot, and claiming to be new/not smart enough/not fast enough to keep up makes no sense as town.
If you are town, you do not discredit yourself. You want your argument to matter and you want people to take you seriously.
Cheese even made a post about it:
On November 03 2012 11:44 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
Here's a topic: I don't want anyone playing the noob card as a defense. Ever. You can make decent arguments / cases even if it's your first game. Don't attribute your actions to "I'm sorry, idk what I'm doing! Newbie town here! Man I suck at this game."
<snip>
Let's count how many times he either apologizes, claims to be new or claims to have no good input.
+ Show Spoiler [Giant spoiler.] +On November 03 2012 14:21 Obzy wrote:K - This is in response to debears post asking about me. I may screw up the formatting but hopefully not - Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 13:40 debears wrote:
Obsy has been around the thread. What I have found is that he seems to be actively lurking. Notice above post. Asking a pretty much useless question. It's newbie town/scum tell, so it's a null tell
Yeah, I've been trying to read and refresh the thread regularly, I think I've been away from it for maybe an hour total since game start. Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 13:40 debears wrote:
He has a few one-liners like the above. Mostly, his posts do not take a strong stance and his opinions seem to be easily swayed. Again newbie town/scum tell.
1)I've typed out a few posts that were a bit longer, but after re-reading, it didn't look like they did anything to advance town interests and the only thing they did was look spammy and unhelpful, so I've mostly been deleting them. I am, as mentioned, not really certain whether or not I'm judging things properly and taking a concrete stance on something that turns out to be stupid feels sort of dumb. Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 13:40 debears wrote:
I don't like this post. At all. Trying to come up with excuses to not be posting. Sure the thread is moving pretty decently (score one for town), but it's nothing huge and pretty easy to follow so far imo.
No comment, it does move really fast. Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 13:40 debears wrote:
Here he acts confused. He asks questions without answering them himself or even really attempting to answer them himself.
I didn't really want to call you out directly. You responded really strongly to Alsn's red font, and it seemed counterproductive - but stifling discussion is a problem; given that you've been the primary generator of discussion. Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 13:40 debears wrote:
Who have a tough time contributing early? Usually scum because
1) They are afraid to post and put themselves out there since they are guilty and know so
2) They know the players they are accusing are town and they can't actually find real evidence to use
However, I admit this is also a newbie town trait.
2)I don't have a problem with posting, I don't want to post meaninglessly. Writing about things that are actually useful and will help everybody is difficult, because when I look at what I've drafted it looks moronic and doesn't help anybody. Answering being directly called out is a lot easier, since I don't have to cast about for what to say, I just have to explain how I'm playing. Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 13:40 debears wrote:
Honestly, this post is just absolutely worthless. It has no actual input. Says nothing about the current happenings of the thread.
I wanted the conversation to shift away from talking about Cheese using jokes or not. It was a meaningless thing to discuss. Pointing it out so early and then dwelling on it for so long meant that it isn't a good scumtell for Cheese, while also making him aware of the fact he was doing it (Assuming that it WAS a scumtell, it no longer is). That entire discussion was just a waste of time, so I would say that it makes sense that my post, pointing it out, was equally useless. I definitely have been reading the thread, but haven't done a very good job of blending in. That's not really the point, anyways. You haven't been blending in, because you've been actively advancing the interests of town. I'm not a good enough judge to know if you're doing so genuinely, but you're the most active player currently (IMHO). I haven't read past this post yet, but I'll go ahead and do so now. If I see something, I'll comment. On November 03 2012 15:03 Obzy wrote:
Alright, I'll check it out when I get a chance. 3)Trying to read like four of the newbie guides and everyone's filters lol ._.; and hitting refresh on this tab occasionally so I don't miss stuff. I suppose since I'm here-
@Rad
I just finished reading through your filter. It's almost depressing - I really appreciate how you're encouraging - but I haven't seen any cases. MLG is a valid excuse IMHO, tomorrow I would also like to see some reads on players from you. I really want you to be town, but I don't know if there's anything backing up you being town any more than there is ME being town. ^^;
I will be sure to take a look regarding dembearz, though - that filter is going to be sort of miserable to read haha :0 On November 03 2012 16:06 Obzy wrote:Hm. Okay. I've been looking at FoS the same way as a vote. Assuming people intend to vote the way they are suspicious, I didn't really think there was a difference; letting the mod keep track makes an amount of sense, though. @Cheese 4>:l The no newb cards comment seems specifically aimed at me. Not really a fan. I'm not wholly sure why he dropped his argument against debears so quickly - pointing out previous meta, etc, and then it just absolutely falls off the face of the planet. Why? (I disagree with this statement, by the way: Show nested quote +Again, another exact mistake I made last game. Feeling the need to tell people that you have been reading the thread. For the second part, he's assuring that we realize that he knows this game is important to him. As town, he wouldn't feel the need to tell us that the game is important. That sounds like the sort of thing I would do. Bringing up the not using newbness as an excuse without calling me out specifically (as the only player who was not participating in the previous game) and then 5)pointing out a scumtell based on inexperience looks like a trap. It may be valid, but combined with the earlier statement, there doesn't really seem to be an answer besides inexperienced town and scum, and you've already indicated that inexperienced town is unacceptable. Why wouldn't you just vote? FoS Mr. Cheese.@Djo Notes: ignores deb/Als argument, policy discussion, mechanics discussion, argument with Cheesecake. If I didn't dislike CC's argument, I'd be a little more doubtful, but... I do dislike it. I think part of the problem for Djo is I have a hard time reading some of his sentences, so it's a little harder to follow his exact train of thought lol. Given that I'm suspicious of CC, I don't have a real problem with Djo at this time. @debears [I seriously clicked your filter and cringed before realizing it's 4 pages, not 40.] (Also, @sylver..) However I may have mentioned FoS vs vote confusion at the top of this post that I wrote like 30 minutes ago, I really don't like the vote on debears at all. If I'm wrong, fucking bummer, but debears is driving conversation. His filter's not easy to read, but the content is useful to Me, at least. I wish I wasn't getting attacked har har, but the activeness in making me respond to stop lurking is a townie move IMHO. If he was mafia, he would've let me continue happily lurking and reading to my heart's content and then blasted me in a day, rather than trying to get me to start contributing early on. For god's sake, it had been less than 6 hours from the start of the game, you hadn't even appeared yet, there were people with only a few words and he writes up a post designed to get me to contribute? That definitely feels townie to me. I don't see how you could come to the opposite conclusion. Some (Maybe even a lot!) of the filter is pretty pointless and could've gone unsaid. The parts that DID go said are, I think, the best in the thread. If he didn't have quality bits in the filter along with the spam I'd think differently but the quality parts look solid. I definitely think he's town at the moment. You haven't interacted with anybody besides Rad and myself, and your first post comes in and blasts debears? @da0ud What the hell dude, get in here and post >_> 6)You can't do worse than me ffsI'm going to take a break now and probably sleep. If anybody has any questions, concerns, claims, or suspicions about me please say something because being called out is good for stopping lurking -_- 7)And when the thread is going fast with a focused discussion it's really hard to jump in. The above is all in page 1 of his filter. At this point I will skip a couple of posts, please looks at them yourselves, but you'll find one of these in almost every one of his posts. So let's look at some on page 3 (his last page)On November 06 2012 04:45 Obzy wrote:
It does.
8)I have a problem with mafia, in that I'm bad at detecting liars lol. I like assuming that everybody is being honest and telling the truth, and in a proper game, that's not possible. Your responses to me are answering my questions, which just makes me wonder if I'm asking the right questions, or if you're innocent and it's just shining through or something lol. The way you reacted to Cheese's statement feels.. legitimate? Upon rereading.
What do you think of Sylver? If you're still around.
For that matter, what does everyone think of Sylver? On November 06 2012 11:15 Obzy wrote:Hm. 9)I think if you're banking on me upping my play and showing off hidden skills, you'll be disappointed. I was hoping to get NK'd because reading is more fun than playing IMO, having experienced it a bit, but didn't expect it because there's no reason to NK me yet. If I'm going to assume that Clarity is town, then that leaves Sylv as the only scum I feel relatively confident in voting. Me Rad Alsn dead-cc dead-db - Clar is tentative ^^ That would leave Djo, Sylv, and da0ud. Djo was going crazy attacking Clar and was waiting for DB's supposed case on Sylv - If I'm assuming Clar is town, it makes me wonder about that, I guess. I'd like to vote Sylv. Before Day1 post finished, I wanted to vote Clar - I feel like trusting his answer though if that makes sense. The fact that you and Alsn had town reads on him (iirc) implies that I was just outright wrong. I've sort of ignored da0ud. 10)I put a lot of time into reading the thread early on and kinda snapped and decided to try to worry about this game less, and he took awhile to start posting relative to the game's start. I've been largely trusting other peoples' opinions on him and not bothering looking critically. I have difficulty seeing nuances in da0ud/djo's typing styles[not that I'm a good judge anyways D: ] but Djo has been talking more often. Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 11:00 Rad wrote:You don't step on anyone's toes, but you need to start. I guess ##Vote Sylverfyrethen.
Is this really someone's attitude coming into a mafia game? Let's compare it to his pregame:
On November 02 2012 10:06 Obzy wrote:
/in
I didn't want to in on the last one due to not being sure if I'd have enough time to be active, given that I'm normally only able to read for a couple hours throughout the day.
But after the activity shown in the last game... I may have been setting the bar too high for myself.
Here's to the game filling up fast >:0
On November 03 2012 09:36 Obzy wrote:
/Yayy excitement and anticipation
Hmmm... it seems not. He seemed genuinely excited to play, so why the change of heart? He's even claimed he doesn't want to play anymore a couple of times.
Again, this is all very convenient, and the reason that I now believe Obzy is Mafia
Not convinced? How about this:
On November 03 2012 14:21 Obzy wrote:
<snip>
I definitely have been reading the thread, but haven't done a very good job of blending in. That's not really the point, anyways. You haven't been blending in, because you've been actively advancing the interests of town. I'm not a good enough judge to know if you're doing so genuinely, but you're the most active player currently (IMHO).
I haven't read past this post yet, but I'll go ahead and do so now. If I see something, I'll comment.
Why would Obzy care about blending in if he was town? He wouldn't.
He also made a couple of posts stating that he was lurking, like X Y and Z. Whereas I did not consider myself to be lurking, he did yet didn't change his posting behaviour:
On November 03 2012 15:16 Obzy wrote:
@Alsn
There really hasn't been enough said. His entire contribution to the thread was a quick jab at debears, talking for 40 minutes past when he said he was going to bed, and leaving. I'll have to wait until tomorrow before I have any idea.
@Clarity
Is lurking a bit, responding when relevant. Similar to Rad. Similar to myself but better, not like that's difficult :[. Also was watching MLG; hopefully tomorrow he has reads on people, rather than lurking and commenting when relevant to try to move discussion along.
On November 03 2012 16:06 Obzy wrote:
<snip>
I'm going to take a break now and probably sleep. If anybody has any questions, concerns, claims, or suspicions about me please say something because being called out is good for stopping lurking -_- And when the thread is going fast with a focused discussion it's really hard to jump in.
My final point is this post:
On November 05 2012 09:35 Obzy wrote:
<snip>
I think that your point here is ridiculous. Giving up is incredibly anti-town, and poor behavior. Up until right now, I have been stressed out and sort of unhappy about how much time this takes, but I won't ask for a replacement, I won't get modkilled, and I won't try to get myself mislynched just to avoid playing. Giving up, if you were town, is incredibly foul.
You're not though, so it's okay.
In this post he proclaims he's close to giving up, he barely cares. He implies he won't be posting as much and he hasn't.
Looking at a singular post of his, it seems reasonable. He's not too confident but he's trying, right? But when you look at the bigger picture. When you look at the fact that there were so many "newb claims" that I didn't even list them all, when you compare his behaviour in the pregame to his behaviour now, I find it hard to believe he isn't just subtly playing the newb card.
Obzy is Mafia.
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I was just looking at Obzy's filter and concluded that pretty much the only thing he's done so far in the game has consisted of sheeping. He says he wants to vote clarity D2, but backs off because me and Rad state that we think Clarity might be town. He votes sylver because he thinks debears wanted to vote sylver.
The only original idea he's had all game was that he wanted people to look at Cheese. However, when I went ahead and did so, he didn't want to vote for him until everything blew up. All of a sudden it was quite all right to vote for Cheese, even though he had stated not a few hours earlier that "I think voting Cheese right now would be too sudden".
Sure, if he's newbie town that could all be explained away as him feeling overwhelmed. But can we take that chance? I never followed the game in question but I even recall Djod saying he managed to win as scum because he played the newbie card.
Will look into sylver next to see what I feel about him.
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Also, his insistence that me and Rad are town. Why would he think so? Djod even blocked me because he thought I was scum. It's possible he actually knows that we are both town.
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On November 07 2012 06:24 Clarity_nl wrote:I think everyone in this game so far has said Obzy looks newb town. I agreed with them. But the more I look at his filter, the more uses of "I suck, I'm just a newbie" I find. This could be lack of confidence, but it's convenient, isn't it? I'm sure most of us here have read the XXX analysis thread by Ver, and if you haven't I recommend it. In this, Ver explains how town could have had an easy scum lynch on day 1, Misder. Ver pointed out that apologizing a lot, and claiming to be new/not smart enough/not fast enough to keep up makes no sense as town. If you are town, you do not discredit yourself. You want your argument to matter and you want people to take you seriously. Cheese even made a post about it: Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 11:44 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
Here's a topic: I don't want anyone playing the noob card as a defense. Ever. You can make decent arguments / cases even if it's your first game. Don't attribute your actions to "I'm sorry, idk what I'm doing! Newbie town here! Man I suck at this game."
<snip> Let's count how many times he either apologizes, claims to be new or claims to have no good input. + Show Spoiler [Giant spoiler.] +On November 03 2012 14:21 Obzy wrote:K - This is in response to debears post asking about me. I may screw up the formatting but hopefully not - Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 13:40 debears wrote:
Obsy has been around the thread. What I have found is that he seems to be actively lurking. Notice above post. Asking a pretty much useless question. It's newbie town/scum tell, so it's a null tell
Yeah, I've been trying to read and refresh the thread regularly, I think I've been away from it for maybe an hour total since game start. Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 13:40 debears wrote:
He has a few one-liners like the above. Mostly, his posts do not take a strong stance and his opinions seem to be easily swayed. Again newbie town/scum tell.
1)I've typed out a few posts that were a bit longer, but after re-reading, it didn't look like they did anything to advance town interests and the only thing they did was look spammy and unhelpful, so I've mostly been deleting them. I am, as mentioned, not really certain whether or not I'm judging things properly and taking a concrete stance on something that turns out to be stupid feels sort of dumb. Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 13:40 debears wrote:
I don't like this post. At all. Trying to come up with excuses to not be posting. Sure the thread is moving pretty decently (score one for town), but it's nothing huge and pretty easy to follow so far imo.
No comment, it does move really fast. Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 13:40 debears wrote:
Here he acts confused. He asks questions without answering them himself or even really attempting to answer them himself.
I didn't really want to call you out directly. You responded really strongly to Alsn's red font, and it seemed counterproductive - but stifling discussion is a problem; given that you've been the primary generator of discussion. Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 13:40 debears wrote:
Who have a tough time contributing early? Usually scum because
1) They are afraid to post and put themselves out there since they are guilty and know so
2) They know the players they are accusing are town and they can't actually find real evidence to use
However, I admit this is also a newbie town trait.
2)I don't have a problem with posting, I don't want to post meaninglessly. Writing about things that are actually useful and will help everybody is difficult, because when I look at what I've drafted it looks moronic and doesn't help anybody. Answering being directly called out is a lot easier, since I don't have to cast about for what to say, I just have to explain how I'm playing. Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 13:40 debears wrote:
Honestly, this post is just absolutely worthless. It has no actual input. Says nothing about the current happenings of the thread.
I wanted the conversation to shift away from talking about Cheese using jokes or not. It was a meaningless thing to discuss. Pointing it out so early and then dwelling on it for so long meant that it isn't a good scumtell for Cheese, while also making him aware of the fact he was doing it (Assuming that it WAS a scumtell, it no longer is). That entire discussion was just a waste of time, so I would say that it makes sense that my post, pointing it out, was equally useless. I definitely have been reading the thread, but haven't done a very good job of blending in. That's not really the point, anyways. You haven't been blending in, because you've been actively advancing the interests of town. I'm not a good enough judge to know if you're doing so genuinely, but you're the most active player currently (IMHO). I haven't read past this post yet, but I'll go ahead and do so now. If I see something, I'll comment. On November 03 2012 15:03 Obzy wrote:
Alright, I'll check it out when I get a chance. 3)Trying to read like four of the newbie guides and everyone's filters lol ._.; and hitting refresh on this tab occasionally so I don't miss stuff. I suppose since I'm here-
@Rad
I just finished reading through your filter. It's almost depressing - I really appreciate how you're encouraging - but I haven't seen any cases. MLG is a valid excuse IMHO, tomorrow I would also like to see some reads on players from you. I really want you to be town, but I don't know if there's anything backing up you being town any more than there is ME being town. ^^;
I will be sure to take a look regarding dembearz, though - that filter is going to be sort of miserable to read haha :0 On November 03 2012 16:06 Obzy wrote:Hm. Okay. I've been looking at FoS the same way as a vote. Assuming people intend to vote the way they are suspicious, I didn't really think there was a difference; letting the mod keep track makes an amount of sense, though. @Cheese 4>:l The no newb cards comment seems specifically aimed at me. Not really a fan. I'm not wholly sure why he dropped his argument against debears so quickly - pointing out previous meta, etc, and then it just absolutely falls off the face of the planet. Why? (I disagree with this statement, by the way: Show nested quote +Again, another exact mistake I made last game. Feeling the need to tell people that you have been reading the thread. For the second part, he's assuring that we realize that he knows this game is important to him. As town, he wouldn't feel the need to tell us that the game is important. That sounds like the sort of thing I would do. Bringing up the not using newbness as an excuse without calling me out specifically (as the only player who was not participating in the previous game) and then 5)pointing out a scumtell based on inexperience looks like a trap. It may be valid, but combined with the earlier statement, there doesn't really seem to be an answer besides inexperienced town and scum, and you've already indicated that inexperienced town is unacceptable. Why wouldn't you just vote? FoS Mr. Cheese.@Djo Notes: ignores deb/Als argument, policy discussion, mechanics discussion, argument with Cheesecake. If I didn't dislike CC's argument, I'd be a little more doubtful, but... I do dislike it. I think part of the problem for Djo is I have a hard time reading some of his sentences, so it's a little harder to follow his exact train of thought lol. Given that I'm suspicious of CC, I don't have a real problem with Djo at this time. @debears [I seriously clicked your filter and cringed before realizing it's 4 pages, not 40.] (Also, @sylver..) However I may have mentioned FoS vs vote confusion at the top of this post that I wrote like 30 minutes ago, I really don't like the vote on debears at all. If I'm wrong, fucking bummer, but debears is driving conversation. His filter's not easy to read, but the content is useful to Me, at least. I wish I wasn't getting attacked har har, but the activeness in making me respond to stop lurking is a townie move IMHO. If he was mafia, he would've let me continue happily lurking and reading to my heart's content and then blasted me in a day, rather than trying to get me to start contributing early on. For god's sake, it had been less than 6 hours from the start of the game, you hadn't even appeared yet, there were people with only a few words and he writes up a post designed to get me to contribute? That definitely feels townie to me. I don't see how you could come to the opposite conclusion. Some (Maybe even a lot!) of the filter is pretty pointless and could've gone unsaid. The parts that DID go said are, I think, the best in the thread. If he didn't have quality bits in the filter along with the spam I'd think differently but the quality parts look solid. I definitely think he's town at the moment. You haven't interacted with anybody besides Rad and myself, and your first post comes in and blasts debears? @da0ud What the hell dude, get in here and post >_> 6)You can't do worse than me ffsI'm going to take a break now and probably sleep. If anybody has any questions, concerns, claims, or suspicions about me please say something because being called out is good for stopping lurking -_- 7)And when the thread is going fast with a focused discussion it's really hard to jump in. The above is all in page 1 of his filter. At this point I will skip a couple of posts, please looks at them yourselves, but you'll find one of these in almost every one of his posts. So let's look at some on page 3 (his last page)On November 06 2012 04:45 Obzy wrote:
It does.
8)I have a problem with mafia, in that I'm bad at detecting liars lol. I like assuming that everybody is being honest and telling the truth, and in a proper game, that's not possible. Your responses to me are answering my questions, which just makes me wonder if I'm asking the right questions, or if you're innocent and it's just shining through or something lol. The way you reacted to Cheese's statement feels.. legitimate? Upon rereading.
What do you think of Sylver? If you're still around.
For that matter, what does everyone think of Sylver? On November 06 2012 11:15 Obzy wrote:Hm. 9)I think if you're banking on me upping my play and showing off hidden skills, you'll be disappointed. I was hoping to get NK'd because reading is more fun than playing IMO, having experienced it a bit, but didn't expect it because there's no reason to NK me yet. If I'm going to assume that Clarity is town, then that leaves Sylv as the only scum I feel relatively confident in voting. Me Rad Alsn dead-cc dead-db - Clar is tentative ^^ That would leave Djo, Sylv, and da0ud. Djo was going crazy attacking Clar and was waiting for DB's supposed case on Sylv - If I'm assuming Clar is town, it makes me wonder about that, I guess. I'd like to vote Sylv. Before Day1 post finished, I wanted to vote Clar - I feel like trusting his answer though if that makes sense. The fact that you and Alsn had town reads on him (iirc) implies that I was just outright wrong. I've sort of ignored da0ud. 10)I put a lot of time into reading the thread early on and kinda snapped and decided to try to worry about this game less, and he took awhile to start posting relative to the game's start. I've been largely trusting other peoples' opinions on him and not bothering looking critically. I have difficulty seeing nuances in da0ud/djo's typing styles[not that I'm a good judge anyways D: ] but Djo has been talking more often. Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 11:00 Rad wrote:You don't step on anyone's toes, but you need to start. I guess ##Vote Sylverfyrethen. Is this really someone's attitude coming into a mafia game? Let's compare it to his pregame: Show nested quote +On November 02 2012 10:06 Obzy wrote:
/in
I didn't want to in on the last one due to not being sure if I'd have enough time to be active, given that I'm normally only able to read for a couple hours throughout the day.
But after the activity shown in the last game... I may have been setting the bar too high for myself.
Here's to the game filling up fast >:0 Hmmm... it seems not. He seemed genuinely excited to play, so why the change of heart? He's even claimed he doesn't want to play anymore a couple of times. Again, this is all very convenient, and the reason that I now believe Obzy is MafiaNot convinced? How about this: Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 14:21 Obzy wrote:
<snip>
I definitely have been reading the thread, but haven't done a very good job of blending in. That's not really the point, anyways. You haven't been blending in, because you've been actively advancing the interests of town. I'm not a good enough judge to know if you're doing so genuinely, but you're the most active player currently (IMHO).
I haven't read past this post yet, but I'll go ahead and do so now. If I see something, I'll comment. Why would Obzy care about blending in if he was town? He wouldn't. He also made a couple of posts stating that he was lurking, like X Y and Z. Whereas I did not consider myself to be lurking, he did yet didn't change his posting behaviour: Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 15:16 Obzy wrote:
@Alsn
There really hasn't been enough said. His entire contribution to the thread was a quick jab at debears, talking for 40 minutes past when he said he was going to bed, and leaving. I'll have to wait until tomorrow before I have any idea.
@Clarity
Is lurking a bit, responding when relevant. Similar to Rad. Similar to myself but better, not like that's difficult :[. Also was watching MLG; hopefully tomorrow he has reads on people, rather than lurking and commenting when relevant to try to move discussion along.
Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 16:06 Obzy wrote:
<snip>
I'm going to take a break now and probably sleep. If anybody has any questions, concerns, claims, or suspicions about me please say something because being called out is good for stopping lurking -_- And when the thread is going fast with a focused discussion it's really hard to jump in. My final point is this post: Show nested quote +On November 05 2012 09:35 Obzy wrote:
<snip>
I think that your point here is ridiculous. Giving up is incredibly anti-town, and poor behavior. Up until right now, I have been stressed out and sort of unhappy about how much time this takes, but I won't ask for a replacement, I won't get modkilled, and I won't try to get myself mislynched just to avoid playing. Giving up, if you were town, is incredibly foul.
You're not though, so it's okay. In this post he proclaims he's close to giving up, he barely cares. He implies he won't be posting as much and he hasn't. Looking at a singular post of his, it seems reasonable. He's not too confident but he's trying, right? But when you look at the bigger picture. When you look at the fact that there were so many "newb claims" that I didn't even list them all, when you compare his behaviour in the pregame to his behaviour now, I find it hard to believe he isn't just subtly playing the newb card. Obzy is Mafia.
Hmmm. I'm sort of glad you're posting this. People bringing me up offhandedly but not asking any questions or pointing any fingers is a little.. well, I just sort of go "Oh well, it's inevitable I guess." I'll try to speak on some of these points, though -
Of course it's my attitude when playing a mafia game. I lack confidence, that much is obvious. My pointing it out constantly is pretty pointless - I apologize for that. I don't really get how pregame matters, and given that that's supposedly the main reason you think I'm mafia (combined with my disheartened-ness and lack of determination), I disagree with your assumption.
My blending-in comment is due to somebody bringing up the fact I had been blending in, when I thought I had done a rather poor job of precisely that, along with the fact that blending in is pointless. I pointed that out literally one sentence after your colored one.
If you'd prefer I openly play the newb card, I could do that too =l But I'm pretty sure everybody has already come to a conclusion that I'm not the most experienced player here. Basing your argument largely off of my interest pregame to my lack-of-confidence and realization that "this game takes WAY more than 20-30 minutes a day of typing and 1 hour a day of reading to play even remotely-properly" makes no sense.
(With regards to sort of not wanting to play - Eh. Yeah? I just don't want to let town down by asking for a replacement because I don't want to invest the time, or literally not reading the thread and voting randomly, or ruining the game in a similar fashion.) I feel like I have a responsibility to try to help town, and getting mislynched is pretty much the best way I could ruin that. That specifically is why I was mad at Cheese. (I shouldn't've berated him after he flipped town, I still feel bad about and apologize again to him for that. My tone was improper.) With that said though, he DID get mislynched. It would be better for somebody to literally have made a single post (as a townie) and not gotten mislynched than to be active, be getting pushed, and then give up and stop trying. He began trying shortly after the initial wave of frustration that I think he experienced, which is more commendable than literally rolling over and dying with something along the lines of "I'm green and you guys are gonna regret this one."
A line like that is self-serving and lets one go "I told you so~" but it doesn't help town. Helping town is landing a proper lynch.
So even though I lack confidence, feel that I'm bad and have been pointing it out, and have had diminished interest as the true workload of this game has become more clear, I'm not going to let you mislynch me.
As I mentioned earlier, I'll try to look through Clarity again later today, but for now,
##Vote Clarity_nl
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Alsn, I decided that you and Rad were town largely because your first posts looked like they were useful, and it helped me limit the amount of people I had to consider as non-town. I'm not sure what to make of the pressure on Rad, or the fact that a lot of it is coming from you.
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On November 07 2012 06:48 Obzy wrote:
Hmmm. I'm sort of glad you're posting this.
How am I supposed to take this other than you're glad it was me who made a case on you, because right now I'm probably the least credible active player.
Your whole "I feel defeated but I will not be defeated!" attitude makes no sense to me.
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Looked over sylver's posts. I can see why people were concerned with him voting Cheese over debears, but at the same time, if he was scum he would've known that they'd both flip town. So in that case, why wouldn't he just stick with his debears vote? He must have known at the time that no matter what he said, his argument about a Cheese debears scum team would look absolutely silly in hindsight, so I don't see what he would have to gain by jumping on the Cheese wagon over staying on debears.
Then to go around and NK debears? That makes his entire voting story completely ridiculous. Why would he discredit himself like that? All he had to do was say that he wasn't convinced that Cheese was necessarily scummy. This is WIFOM, yes, but on the whole other than the voting debacle, he has been acting pretty pro-town. Unless he was lying about what he thought about debears actions in early D1, his vote pressure and follow up makes complete sense. Debears did OMGUS him, although we now know he did it because he was suspicious of sylver. I don't see what's so weird about his actions for the rest of D1 with the exception of his Cheese switch. But again, his Cheese switch seems more town-motivated than not to me.
So yea, right now I'm going with the idea that sylver is town. Unless da0ud shows up and counter-claims, I don't see how we shouldn't believe Djod. The only chance that it's a lie at this point is if a scum Djod deliberately gambled on there not being a jailkeeper to counter-claim. Which seems like a really long shot to me. So that means I need to decide what I feel about Rad, Clarity, Obzy and da0ud.
I agree with Rad that da0ud being ballsy and voting debears when everyone was going after Cheese probably makes him town. His explanation's also from what I recall generally make sense. However, I'll take a last look at da0ud and see just what I feel.
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Also, I'd like to point out that Djod breadcrumbed the exact same way in XXVIII when he claimed cop. Using a french word.
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@Rad
What do you think about Clarity's case against Obzy? Specifically, what do you think about Clarity making that case on Obzy? Does it make him look more town? or less?
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On November 07 2012 07:03 Clarity_nl wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 06:48 Obzy wrote:
Hmmm. I'm sort of glad you're posting this. How am I supposed to take this other than you're glad it was me who made a case on you, because right now I'm probably the least credible active player. Your whole "I feel defeated but I will not be defeated!" attitude makes no sense to me.
I'm glad you are posting a case on me, specifically. Heh.
Being called out in general gives a clear indication that my posting will be listened to when I respond, but getting called out by you makes my trust of Djo's JK claim increase, since he was been beating his head against you for hours this morning. You posting a case that I know is false makes me believe more in his case, which helps me trust his claim and innocence. A team composed of him and Sylver was only something I mused about if you were town.
Maybe you're town and your case against me is just flat-out incorrect, you're just misguided. That's possible. But I think you think that too; you didn't vote. You clearly say "Obzy is Mafia" in fancy red highlighting and you do not vote. >_>
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EPT
