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On November 04 2012 02:39 Rad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2012 02:31 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:30 Rad wrote:On November 04 2012 02:27 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:26 Rad wrote:On November 04 2012 02:20 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:16 Rad wrote:On November 04 2012 02:13 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:07 Alsn wrote:On November 04 2012 02:01 debears wrote:
[quote]
So, in essence, you think that a vote to tell someone to post less is productive?
Being active =/ acting strangely or counter productive
I was sparking conversation dude
OMGUS is warranted when I find him scummy
Again, that isn't even what he said. He said he wanted you to post less fluff and more content. How is that a vote to make you post less? Also, if you're explaining away fluff as sparking conversation I don't know what to say, how is posting a bunch of fluff productive? Either people find you scummy for it(bad if you're town, it lessens your credibility) or people will actually reply with fluff themselves(even worse). How much fluff do you actually see in my filter? Quote it and put it in a spoiler. Then take my quotes that look like they are accomplishing something. and put them in another spoiler. I want to see how much you think his fluff argument holds true. That's quite a lot of work you're asking from him and doesn't really help town much, does it? It's all going to be subjective at that point, he might say "this is fluff" and you can just argue that it's not. If we want to determine how much fluff you've given so far, we can check your filter and determine for ourselves. Give me a percentage of fluff in my filter then. If your going to accuse me of something, at least make is specific. This "you're posting so much fluff" is doing nothing. That's your best reasoning on me so far. What good does this percentage do except make some arbitrary point to argue about endlessly? "50% fluff, scum!!!" "only 25% fluff, clearly not a scum tell!" I'm trying to figure out what you expect to come from such a number. If you're scum and you want alsn to waste time coming up with this percentage, clearly you don't think it'll be damning. Nothing to come out of this number except WIFOM on both sides of the argument. Stop bitching and just give me a damn percentage. Holy shit. I'm not gonna freak out. I already admitted I had fluff Answer the question about what good can come from coming up with a percentage. So I know where my fluff rating stands. So I can determine whether you are being genuine or not based on what I feel Your "fluff rating"? O.o Anyway, my issues were with your reasoning for wanting alsn to spend time doing something that doesn't help town at all. If you could think of reasons why it would help town, great, I was hoping to hear them from you, but you're stuck on just pushing the wasting of time to happen. Get on Alsn if you really want this huge waste of time to happen, not me (I wasn't the one pushing the fluff idea on you), but if you don't give a good answer as to why your "fluff rating" matters to town, I'll consider this you just pushing people to waste time. Again, as I stated before, if you're scum, you clearly don't think your fluff percentage will be a bad thing against you, so it's worthless to even look up at this point.
Because I'm town and I'm trying to figure out who's scum. Attacking someone without specific reasoning means you can back out on your argument easier later. Saying "you're posting a lot of fluff" is a very ambigious statement.
Why don't you want to just give me a percentage? It's a very simple request. Off the top of your head
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On November 04 2012 02:44 Clarity_nl wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2012 02:42 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:39 Rad wrote:On November 04 2012 02:31 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:30 Rad wrote:On November 04 2012 02:27 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:26 Rad wrote:On November 04 2012 02:20 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:16 Rad wrote:On November 04 2012 02:13 debears wrote:
[quote]
How much fluff do you actually see in my filter?
Quote it and put it in a spoiler. Then take my quotes that look like they are accomplishing something. and put them in another spoiler. I want to see how much you think his fluff argument holds true. That's quite a lot of work you're asking from him and doesn't really help town much, does it? It's all going to be subjective at that point, he might say "this is fluff" and you can just argue that it's not. If we want to determine how much fluff you've given so far, we can check your filter and determine for ourselves. Give me a percentage of fluff in my filter then. If your going to accuse me of something, at least make is specific. This "you're posting so much fluff" is doing nothing. That's your best reasoning on me so far. What good does this percentage do except make some arbitrary point to argue about endlessly? "50% fluff, scum!!!" "only 25% fluff, clearly not a scum tell!" I'm trying to figure out what you expect to come from such a number. If you're scum and you want alsn to waste time coming up with this percentage, clearly you don't think it'll be damning. Nothing to come out of this number except WIFOM on both sides of the argument. Stop bitching and just give me a damn percentage. Holy shit. I'm not gonna freak out. I already admitted I had fluff Answer the question about what good can come from coming up with a percentage. So I know where my fluff rating stands. So I can determine whether you are being genuine or not based on what I feel Your "fluff rating"? O.o Anyway, my issues were with your reasoning for wanting alsn to spend time doing something that doesn't help town at all. If you could think of reasons why it would help town, great, I was hoping to hear them from you, but you're stuck on just pushing the wasting of time to happen. Get on Alsn if you really want this huge waste of time to happen, not me (I wasn't the one pushing the fluff idea on you), but if you don't give a good answer as to why your "fluff rating" matters to town, I'll consider this you just pushing people to waste time. Again, as I stated before, if you're scum, you clearly don't think your fluff percentage will be a bad thing against you, so it's worthless to even look up at this point. Because I'm town and I'm trying to figure out who's scum. Attacking someone without specific reasoning means you can back out on your argument easier later. Saying "you're posting a lot of fluff" is a very ambigious statement. Why don't you want to just give me a percentage? It's a very simple request. Off the top of your head Well I'm glad you cleared that up. Anyway, you want your number so badly? 35% fluff. Can we move on now? I feel like we reversed 12 hours and we're talking about Cheese's joke.
Ok. Finally. I have 65% content in a large filter according to you, which arguably is more contribution to the thread than most. This is why the fluff argument is invalid. See my point Rad?
That is all.
Now, scumhunting coming
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@Sylver
Do you consider me a good lynch candidate based on activity?
and I have put more than one sentence in a post. My most important posts have more than 1. Those are the key
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On November 04 2012 03:15 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2012 03:03 debears wrote:
@Sylver
Do you consider me a good lynch candidate based on activity?
and I have put more than one sentence in a post. My most important posts have more than 1. Those are the key We're picking out lynch candidates already? Weren't you the one who said we should vote our big scumtells first? I'm not ready to call you a lynch candidate. It's nowhere near lynch time, we still have more than 24 hours. We still haven't seen a lot from some players.
Just answer the question.
If you were considering lynch candidates, would you consider me based on my activity?
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@Slyver
Then why did you say this?
The biggest red flag to me was:
On November 03 2012 11:39 debears wrote:
Btw to all obs
I will attempt to reach the fabled 30 pg filter
If your 30 page filter looks like this, debears, how the is anyone supposed to process it as information? You write twenty sentences per page of filter. That's what I'm complaining about. You can put more than one sentence into a post. Please do, for the sake of the town.
If activity is not something you lynch on, then why is my inference of activity the biggest red flag for you?
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Ebwop
The biggest red flag to me was: Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 11:39 debears wrote:
Btw to all obs
I will attempt to reach the fabled 30 pg filter If your 30 page filter looks like this, debears, how the is anyone supposed to process it as information? You write twenty sentences per page of filter. That's what I'm complaining about. You can put more than one sentence into a post. Please do, for the sake of the town.
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On November 04 2012 03:38 sylverfyre wrote:
At the time, your posts were a lot of oneliners. If you have a 30 page post of oneliners (instead of longer posts, with more than one sentence of information per post) then it's much harder to read your filter. Which is bad for town. All I'm asking there is to up your words per post and cool down on the tripleposting.
It's worth noting, you're actually doing what I'm asking of you right now, even as you're calling me out for being frustrated at you for it. Thanks, I guess?
While you consider a long filter bad for town, have you considered that an active town, especially super active town, is extremely bad for scum. They lose control of the thread, and have a threat who is invested and reads things over.
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On November 04 2012 03:51 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2012 03:46 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 03:38 sylverfyre wrote:
At the time, your posts were a lot of oneliners. If you have a 30 page post of oneliners (instead of longer posts, with more than one sentence of information per post) then it's much harder to read your filter. Which is bad for town. All I'm asking there is to up your words per post and cool down on the tripleposting.
It's worth noting, you're actually doing what I'm asking of you right now, even as you're calling me out for being frustrated at you for it. Thanks, I guess? While you consider a long filter bad for town, have you considered that an active town, especially super active town, is extremely bad for scum. They lose control of the thread, and have a threat who is invested and reads things over. And artificially increasing your filter is what? At best it's a genuine attempt at making the observers laugh about something, at worst you're scum trying to hide behind Hapa's advice that he has posted after/during almost every single newbie lately, that lynching the most active player is almost always a mislynch. Neither of those help us find scum.
Where do you get that I'm artificially increasing my filter? I'm not posting for the sake of filter. I'm posting for the sake of discussion and finding scum
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@CC
It could be. I find his earlier actions scummier than his wording though.
Anyways,
##Unvote
##Vote Dau0d
Dude is most definitely the most inactive player right now
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On November 04 2012 05:31 Rad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2012 05:16 Clarity_nl wrote:On November 04 2012 05:12 Rad wrote:On November 04 2012 05:02 Clarity_nl wrote:
Although caution can be a good thing Rad, you should be careful.
If you don't have enough information to make a read make sure to get more information.
It would be too easy for scum to go: "Ah, I dunno, don't really have any reads" You shouldn't be getting away with this as town.
I'm curious as to any cases you might make in the next 24 hours. I haven't shown any reason for you to believe I won't be scum hunting plenty between now and end of d1. Well yeah but.... you haven't shown me any reason that you WILL either. You mean besides my persistent scum hunting against debears? What do you want me to do, scum hunt against everyone at the same time? I try to comment on other people's arguments as they come up but I can only handle so much at once.
Your "scumhunting" has been a refusal to answer a simple question I asked you and then harp on me about wanting someone to be more specific in their accusation to
1) Figure out how much fluff you think I have
2) Figure out if you're possibly mafia trying to keep an escape door by being general
You should really reconsider reading what exactly I was asking for.
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On November 04 2012 06:22 Alsn wrote:
Of course scum worries about trying to show that they are acting with pure intentions. But you're saying it like just because one is worried about others not thinking you have pure intentions that if they are, it must be a slip.
Do you think that a townie doesn't have to be worried about what everyone else thinks of them?
Alsn, in my experience, townies are much less worried about how they are viewed among the town. They are more worried about scumhunting since town know they are innocent. Mafia, on the other hand, must try to "scumhunt" while appearing town, due to a guilty conscience.
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On November 04 2012 06:41 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2012 06:27 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 06:22 Alsn wrote:
Of course scum worries about trying to show that they are acting with pure intentions. But you're saying it like just because one is worried about others not thinking you have pure intentions that if they are, it must be a slip.
Do you think that a townie doesn't have to be worried about what everyone else thinks of them? Alsn, in my experience, townies are much less worried about how they are viewed among the town. They are more worried about scumhunting since town know they are innocent. Mafia, on the other hand, must try to "scumhunt" while appearing town, due to a guilty conscience. Less so maybe, but reading for example the newbie guide will tell you that a townie's first priority is to establish your own innocence. If that doesn't mean town needs to worry about their image, I don't know what it means. If you don't make sure that you look genuine, it would mean any scum voting for you seemingly had good reasons for doing so. Hell, just look at my play during XXVIII, I made pretty much everyone in the game(including you) suspect me because I wasn't careful enough about being consistent which derailed the thread and allowed SDM to flawlessly vote me out of the game without arousing any suspicion whatsoever. I spent the better part of four days trying to "fix my reputation" but in the end ultimately failed to do so, causing my lynch with arguably almost no benefit for town at all. I'm merely saying that you can't accuse someone just because "scum would think that way!" if it's actually also true that town should think that way too. You can just as well make the case that it was a town slip(like, say, the one he made in XXIX that made everyone in the thread wrongly suspect him for 4 days straight?). I think if we keep paying attention to "weak slips" just because we managed to nail kush on it that one time, we haven't learned anything at all from XXIX.
It makes sense. The one thing that you should consider is that as town, I don't feel "pressure" to make cases or appear I'm making cases. I just want to find scum.
Djo's words implies that he feels pressure that he must appear townie, and I don't think that townies actually feel pressure to prove they're innocent, unless it's lylo. A townie may want to appear innocent, but if they don't day1 it's not a big deal. Scum want to from the very beginning of day1
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I would like to address some points on Rad. It's a little lengthy in the spoilers.
He's either a strongly confirmation biased town or a scum. His 180 on me leads me to believe he's scum
Summary:
- Telling others how to post. Saying "let's get off topic x" - t
- Talking about last game
- these types of things are easy for scum to say. It makes them look like they are contributing without . doing so and care about the town
- Excuse to not make reads - i don't get why you wouldn't make reads as town. If you're wrong, you're wrong and there's no shame in that. If you're scum, not making reads is good since you can just sheep later
- 180 on me - His 180 and sudden aggressiveness on my obsy post doesn't seem like it was his idea. It feels coached/coming from his partner (this point I would really like some input on from everyone) and it most definitely doesn't feel like a genuine change of suspicion about me
- refusal to answer my % fluff question - it wasn't a hard question to answer and he wouldn't do it
Thread cop mentality
+ Show Spoiler +On November 03 2012 11:32 Rad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 11:24 Djodref wrote:On November 03 2012 11:12 Rad wrote:On November 03 2012 11:04 Djodref wrote:
@ Rad
That's my problem with a lurker policy this game, I think that it can be used only against daoud or Obzy (maybe sylverfire).
I think it would be much better to call directly these players for lurking rather agreeing on a policy which could be a perfect excuse for the mafia to push a mislynch on them, assuming that they are town.
It's a small game and if you have a problem with the activity level of anyone, you can call them on it, no need for a policy. @Djo If no one lurks, the lurker policy has done its job. That's all it's there to do, stop people from lurking. Nothing more, nothing less. Let's move on shall we? The policy prevents mafia players from lurking but it doesn't stop anyone from being inactive. And the policy is the best excuse ever for mafia to lynch an inactive town player with IRL issues. This game is full of active players and small enough to call directly a player on active lurking, blending in or pure lurking. I don't think we need the policy and I'm going to get very suspicious on players lynching according to the policy only. You're over-thinking this. KISS - keep it simple stupid Let's lynch lurkers so we can guarantee only active players and increase our chance to get good reads. Also, let's move on from this debate as it's cluttering up the thread. Here Rad says "let's move on from policy", yet he fails to offer a suggestion. On November 03 2012 11:42 Rad wrote:@djo Not sure, something useful  I'm sure debears will think of something if he's shooting for a filter size that only you could possibly achieve. He then says that he wants me to come up with something. He is taking a backseat. On November 04 2012 00:34 Rad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2012 00:20 Djodref wrote:On November 04 2012 00:12 Rad wrote:On November 04 2012 00:03 Djodref wrote:On November 03 2012 23:48 debears wrote:On November 03 2012 23:44 Djodref wrote:On November 03 2012 23:33 debears wrote:On November 03 2012 20:58 Djodref wrote:On November 03 2012 10:21 debears wrote:
@obsy
Its mafia favored compared to the last setup. Only 9 players means a quicker game. A quicker game is better foe mafia since they don't have to fake their townieness for so long.
Also look at the roles like medic. Medic can't target the same person twice (was it also that he can't target himself? I'm on my phone and i really don't want to check @ debearsSo, are you saying that the fact that we have a medic which cannot target the same person twice is such a big imbalance that this game is obviously mafia favored or are you role-fishing ? I'm not sure why you mention this in this post, could you elaborate ? Idk how you get that I'm role fishing from that. 1) I talked about the speed of the game and number of players being mafia favored 2) Combined with the roles setup, the game is pretty mafia favored imo How do you get that I'm role fishing for that when I in no way ask anyone if they are blue? @ debearsMaybe you were waiting for a possible medic to confirm you the fact that he cannot heal himself. I would expect a medic to carefully read his role's rules and I'm expecting you to know that medics usually cannot heal themselves. But you are asking this question nevertheless. I'm agreeing that the speed of this game is benefit the mafia but I don't see why the role setup would be mafia favored. It is only because the medic cannot heal the same person twice ? That, with no vig, no vet, yet the Mafia still have the same power roles for possiblities, except the godfather. Oh, and roleblocks aren't notified. Mainly it's the number of players and speed of the game combined with only having 2 mafia @ debearsI think that cop and jailkeeper are powerful roles, we might not have both of them though. Vig is not so good in newbie games (could you confirm this one, Rad?). Please also note that a framer couldn't use his power on his mafia partner. Anyway, I don't think the setup is imbalanced from a role point of view and I was surprised that you were only mentioning the medic. I'm not totally satisfied with your explanations but it was a minor thing. I'm more interested in sylverfire and daoud right now. Can the framer frame himself ? Regarding your bolded question to me, what do you want me to confirm? Define "good." Good for town winning or good for me having a blast? Cause I had a blast, even though I got the wrong shot, it was so fun trying to figure out who to use it on, and I submitted the kill request the very last second I could (probably why the night post took longer, I bet thrawn had to rewrite it). Had I gotten a scum with the shot, who knows what that would have done to me, hell it might have pushed my confirmation bias even further. Certainly I would have centered in on cheese 100% if kush flipped scum that game. Anyway, "good for town"? I have no idea. Good for getting me super interested last game? You bet. Also, it taught me some lessons I would not have learned otherwise. @ RadOf course I was meaning good for town The risk of having of town player killed by a vigilante is greater in newbie games so I don't think this role really benefits the town. I wanted to take last game as an example so that's why I was mentioning you. Anyway, let's drop this right now and focus and more important matters. I'm urging you to answer debears and give your input on the latest events in the thread @Djo I intend to answer debears. It's a question that requires some research and thought. Let's try to make this game cleaner in terms of the filters. Give people time to answer questions rather than restate that a question is waiting to be answered. It's of no use to town. If you find someone has skipped answering a question for a long period of time, that's when you can jump in and point it out.
Talking about last game
+ Show Spoiler +On November 04 2012 00:12 Rad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2012 00:03 Djodref wrote:On November 03 2012 23:48 debears wrote:On November 03 2012 23:44 Djodref wrote:On November 03 2012 23:33 debears wrote:On November 03 2012 20:58 Djodref wrote:On November 03 2012 10:21 debears wrote:
@obsy
Its mafia favored compared to the last setup. Only 9 players means a quicker game. A quicker game is better foe mafia since they don't have to fake their townieness for so long.
Also look at the roles like medic. Medic can't target the same person twice (was it also that he can't target himself? I'm on my phone and i really don't want to check @ debearsSo, are you saying that the fact that we have a medic which cannot target the same person twice is such a big imbalance that this game is obviously mafia favored or are you role-fishing ? I'm not sure why you mention this in this post, could you elaborate ? Idk how you get that I'm role fishing from that. 1) I talked about the speed of the game and number of players being mafia favored 2) Combined with the roles setup, the game is pretty mafia favored imo How do you get that I'm role fishing for that when I in no way ask anyone if they are blue? @ debearsMaybe you were waiting for a possible medic to confirm you the fact that he cannot heal himself. I would expect a medic to carefully read his role's rules and I'm expecting you to know that medics usually cannot heal themselves. But you are asking this question nevertheless. I'm agreeing that the speed of this game is benefit the mafia but I don't see why the role setup would be mafia favored. It is only because the medic cannot heal the same person twice ? That, with no vig, no vet, yet the Mafia still have the same power roles for possiblities, except the godfather. Oh, and roleblocks aren't notified. Mainly it's the number of players and speed of the game combined with only having 2 mafia @ debearsI think that cop and jailkeeper are powerful roles, we might not have both of them though. Vig is not so good in newbie games (could you confirm this one, Rad?). Please also note that a framer couldn't use his power on his mafia partner. Anyway, I don't think the setup is imbalanced from a role point of view and I was surprised that you were only mentioning the medic. I'm not totally satisfied with your explanations but it was a minor thing. I'm more interested in sylverfire and daoud right now. Can the framer frame himself ? Regarding your bolded question to me, what do you want me to confirm? Define "good." Good for town winning or good for me having a blast? Cause I had a blast, even though I got the wrong shot, it was so fun trying to figure out who to use it on, and I submitted the kill request the very last second I could (probably why the night post took longer, I bet thrawn had to rewrite it). Had I gotten a scum with the shot, who knows what that would have done to me, hell it might have pushed my confirmation bias even further. Certainly I would have centered in on cheese 100% if kush flipped scum that game. Anyway, "good for town"? I have no idea. Good for getting me super interested last game? You bet. Also, it taught me some lessons I would not have learned otherwise. Here Rad goes way off tangent about how much fun he had as vig last game. Wtf does that have to do with this game and Djo's question? On November 03 2012 11:54 Rad wrote:
I used newbie card 2-3 times last game, I think.
I don't really know what to say about it. When I used it last game, I meant it, clearly, as I was town, and that was my very first game. So, I was just being honest. I think it's an interesting thing to bring up though, because had it not been brought up last game, I would have used it much more, and it probably would have hurt more than helped. Since it was brought up at the beginning, I at least attempted not to use it, and only used it when I felt it was the only explanation.
So I would agree, attempt to stay away from the newbie card if at all possible. Here he mentions how he played the newbie card last game. What good does this post do? We already know playing th newbie card is bad. I believe Djo had already mentioned it. This is the type of post that makes it look like you are contributing without actually doing so.
Excuse for not making reads for 1st half of d1
+ Show Spoiler +On November 03 2012 15:14 Rad wrote:
@Obzy
Tomorrow and Sunday I will be trying to figure out some sort of a case for sure. I made a lot of terrible reads my first game (newbie XXIX) that lead to dead townies, so I'm going to be trying to approach it differently this time (more like how I was approaching the game near end of XXIX, not that I expect you to know what I mean by that, but everyone else in this game might understand the differences). Why do we need to know you aren't making reads for the first half of d1? Why does making cases on townies by accident when the mafia is heavily interfering have any influence on this game? You don't even know if mafia is active or not if you are town. Everyone makes bad cases. I don't see others making excuses for not making reads because of it. It sounds like you are trying to defend yourself when you have no reason to, which is inherent of a guilty conscience.
Sudden 180 on me
+ Show Spoiler +After my obsy post, Rad didn't immediately jump on it saying I was attacking Obsy. This is what he said On November 03 2012 13:42 Rad wrote:
@Clarity
That's a great point and I want to reemphasize it.
@Obzy
If you're town, please disregard any suggestions about you being useless so far. Just keep attempting to be useful and you'll get the hang of it. You don't have to post as much as debears, djo, or even myself to be useful so don't get discouraged. However, don't hold back and give your input on things when you have input as it'll be helpful to town if we get some more input from you.
Also I see debears has directed some questions at you so here's a chance to open up a bit. In this post, he doesn't seem to think I'm attacking Obsy. He seems to think that I'm giving Obsy some questions to kick start his participation. Read the last line. Yet, he suddenly turns into this after I ask him for reads on sylver/dau0d/djo and tell him there's no reason to not scumhunt because you might make a few bad cases On November 04 2012 00:46 Rad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2012 00:10 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 00:06 Rad wrote:On November 03 2012 18:43 Clarity_nl wrote:
Rad: Null. He's being more careful than last game, lurking a bit more. He mentioned he would be more careful, but not in pregame, he did this after the role PMs were sent. He also seems really invested in helping Obzy out as he's the newest, the only one here who wasn't in XXIX.
@ Rad
Why the interest in Obzy? Are you going to use MLG as an excuse at any point this weekend?
I felt a bit of inig coming through in obzy. Overwhelmed, confused, but potentially useful to town. I didn't want to see him shy away due to how fast the conversations were coming and going here. I wanted him to open up and let his thoughts be known. Yes, I'll be watching MLG pretty much every minute it's on until it's done on Sunday. I do that for every MLG I get a chance to watch. My fiance is working all day today so all I got is MLG and this newbie mafia to pay attention to :D Might play a game here and there (ns2), but I expect a lot of my time today to be dedicated towards this game while watching MLG. As for my being more careful, it's based strictly on how I changed over the course of last game. I based my cases on a lot of stupid things and confirmation bias but couldn't ever realize it until after townies started flipping when I was sure they were scum. I want to avoid that this time and at least have some more solid reasoning when I decide to center in on someone. Rad, alot of early d1 cases will end up being stupid in hindsight. Hapa, a good player, even stated so in GSL III I believe. That doesn't excuse you from scumhunting. I understand getting Obsy to post to avoid having him lurk, but you seemed too focused on it. What are your thoughts on Dau0d/syler/Djo from the last couple of pages? I haven't said I don't plan on scumhunting. What gives you that impression? You're coming to a false conclusion on what I've been talking about. Concerning obzy, what do you mean I seemed too focused on it? I tried to help him understand my stance on lurkers because he had some issues with it. Then I had to jump in and make sure he didn't get super demotivated because YOU were calling his posts useless and worthless. What does a town want a newbie town to do? Learn how to play the game and be useful to town. What does a scum want a newbie town to do? Feel scared at the thought of being terrible at the game, back off, say nothing out of fear. How exactly are you helping town by talking shit to the new guy at the beginning of d1? He is super defensive. He suddenly changes his opinions on my post on obsy for literally no reason. Oh and I posted this earlier after my original obsy post. On November 03 2012 13:47 debears wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 13:42 Rad wrote:
@Clarity
That's a great point and I want to reemphasize it.
@Obzy
If you're town, please disregard any suggestions about you being useless so far. Just keep attempting to be useful and you'll get the hang of it. You don't have to post as much as debears, djo, or even myself to be useful so don't get discouraged. However, don't hold back and give your input on things when you have input as it'll be helpful to town if we get some more input from you.
Also I see debears has directed some questions at you so here's a chance to open up a bit. Yeah. That case is in no way saying omg he's scum. It's more of light pressure to get him to state some views, be more active in this. However, Rad, what I would like to know is that, although you are obviously following the thread in the shadows, you aren't posting to much. Why is that? My intent on making a post on obsy seems pretty clear to me that I was trying to get him to be active. Yet, Rad somehow interprets my post as an attack on Obsy's ego. On November 04 2012 01:27 Rad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2012 01:16 debears wrote:
@Rad
I concede on the worthless point.
Also, there are two ways of encouraging newbies to post
1) Pressure
2) Kindness
I chose 1 initially. Notice my reaction after Obsy responds. Would you say that is talking shit to him? Pressure's fine with me. That wasn't pressure though. That was an attack on his ego and the only motivation I can see for it is to shut him down fast and create a lurker out of him (which, as you know, many of us would want to lynch). What reaction of yours to his response are you talking about? All I see is "So what is your exact read on me? Scum, slightly scum, null, slightly town, or town?" but that's just a question, not motivational or de-motivational. Did he forget that I told Obsy to go get coaching help? How is my original post on Obsy an "attack on his ego?
Refusal to answer a simple question
+ Show Spoiler +On November 04 2012 02:26 Rad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2012 02:20 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:16 Rad wrote:On November 04 2012 02:13 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:07 Alsn wrote:On November 04 2012 02:01 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 01:58 Alsn wrote:On November 04 2012 01:49 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 01:39 Alsn wrote:On November 04 2012 01:13 debears wrote:
[quote]
You said townies. That's very different than saying the town or players. Very, very different.
It means that you either
1) Think the people being active are townies
2) Know that the people being active are townies
There is no other reason for using townies to describe those of us who are showing activeness and dedication
Also, you voted me, meaning you voted for someone who you think is townie based on the above. That is scummy as shit debears, even if we hypothetically assume the two most active players are scum, it would still mean that town on the whole is being active and not lurking. I think your argument is bad and your insistence that his statement is a scum slip is far fetched imho. Eh. I think it's very odd to say that townies have good dedication, and I'm one of the guys showing dedication, yet he votes me. Also, what do you think of this part of his post alsn? I kinda expected a bit more... substance in the thread by now. For a guy who hadn't posted anything, why is he calling all the actives out for substance? What good does that do? That part of his post, sure, I agree that it's somewhat a silly statement. It doesn't change the fact that you had been acting very strangely and quite counter-productive to town interests. From where I'm sitting his vote was merited. Especially in light of the fact that he said he meant it as a strong FoS as opposed to a rock solid reason for why you absolutely must be scum. You OMGUSing him most certainly doesn't damage his case. Also, it's unfortunate that I'm indirectly helping him defend himself, but at this point I simply find you/Djod more scummy than him and I figured the chance of him being scum was lower than the risk of you guys getting off the hook if I had stayed silent and just watched. It seems that from the latest developments that other people had the same thought. So, in essence, you think that a vote to tell someone to post less is productive? Being active =/ acting strangely or counter productive I was sparking conversation dude OMGUS is warranted when I find him scummy Again, that isn't even what he said. He said he wanted you to post less fluff and more content. How is that a vote to make you post less? Also, if you're explaining away fluff as sparking conversation I don't know what to say, how is posting a bunch of fluff productive? Either people find you scummy for it(bad if you're town, it lessens your credibility) or people will actually reply with fluff themselves(even worse). How much fluff do you actually see in my filter? Quote it and put it in a spoiler. Then take my quotes that look like they are accomplishing something. and put them in another spoiler. I want to see how much you think his fluff argument holds true. That's quite a lot of work you're asking from him and doesn't really help town much, does it? It's all going to be subjective at that point, he might say "this is fluff" and you can just argue that it's not. If we want to determine how much fluff you've given so far, we can check your filter and determine for ourselves. Give me a percentage of fluff in my filter then. If your going to accuse me of something, at least make is specific. This "you're posting so much fluff" is doing nothing. That's your best reasoning on me so far. What good does this percentage do except make some arbitrary point to argue about endlessly? "50% fluff, scum!!!" "only 25% fluff, clearly not a scum tell!" I'm trying to figure out what you expect to come from such a number. If you're scum and you want alsn to waste time coming up with this percentage, clearly you don't think it'll be damning. Nothing to come out of this number except WIFOM on both sides of the argument. After asking Alsn to quote all my fluff posts then all my content posts, Rad jumps on me about "wasting time". How would that be wasting time if you think I'm scummy? Also, he refuses to answer how much percentage fluff there is in my filter off the top of his head. His refusal to respond to a simple question is anti-town. His response is basically "that's useless".
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@Alsn
read the 180 part with rad real quick. You can read the rest of the case later
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@Rad
How about you read before jumping on me
On November 04 2012 02:42 debears wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2012 02:39 Rad wrote:On November 04 2012 02:31 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:30 Rad wrote:On November 04 2012 02:27 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:26 Rad wrote:On November 04 2012 02:20 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:16 Rad wrote:On November 04 2012 02:13 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:07 Alsn wrote:
[quote]Again, that isn't even what he said. He said he wanted you to post less fluff and more content. How is that a vote to make you post less?
Also, if you're explaining away fluff as sparking conversation I don't know what to say, how is posting a bunch of fluff productive? Either people find you scummy for it(bad if you're town, it lessens your credibility) or people will actually reply with fluff themselves(even worse). How much fluff do you actually see in my filter? Quote it and put it in a spoiler. Then take my quotes that look like they are accomplishing something. and put them in another spoiler. I want to see how much you think his fluff argument holds true. That's quite a lot of work you're asking from him and doesn't really help town much, does it? It's all going to be subjective at that point, he might say "this is fluff" and you can just argue that it's not. If we want to determine how much fluff you've given so far, we can check your filter and determine for ourselves. Give me a percentage of fluff in my filter then. If your going to accuse me of something, at least make is specific. This "you're posting so much fluff" is doing nothing. That's your best reasoning on me so far. What good does this percentage do except make some arbitrary point to argue about endlessly? "50% fluff, scum!!!" "only 25% fluff, clearly not a scum tell!" I'm trying to figure out what you expect to come from such a number. If you're scum and you want alsn to waste time coming up with this percentage, clearly you don't think it'll be damning. Nothing to come out of this number except WIFOM on both sides of the argument. Stop bitching and just give me a damn percentage. Holy shit. I'm not gonna freak out. I already admitted I had fluff Answer the question about what good can come from coming up with a percentage. So I know where my fluff rating stands. So I can determine whether you are being genuine or not based on what I feel Your "fluff rating"? O.o Anyway, my issues were with your reasoning for wanting alsn to spend time doing something that doesn't help town at all. If you could think of reasons why it would help town, great, I was hoping to hear them from you, but you're stuck on just pushing the wasting of time to happen. Get on Alsn if you really want this huge waste of time to happen, not me (I wasn't the one pushing the fluff idea on you), but if you don't give a good answer as to why your "fluff rating" matters to town, I'll consider this you just pushing people to waste time. Again, as I stated before, if you're scum, you clearly don't think your fluff percentage will be a bad thing against you, so it's worthless to even look up at this point. Because I'm town and I'm trying to figure out who's scum. Attacking someone without specific reasoning means you can back out on your argument easier later. Saying "you're posting a lot of fluff" is a very ambigious statement. Why don't you want to just give me a percentage? It's a very simple request. Off the top of your head
On November 04 2012 02:46 debears wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2012 02:44 Clarity_nl wrote:On November 04 2012 02:42 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:39 Rad wrote:On November 04 2012 02:31 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:30 Rad wrote:On November 04 2012 02:27 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:26 Rad wrote:On November 04 2012 02:20 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:16 Rad wrote:
[quote]
That's quite a lot of work you're asking from him and doesn't really help town much, does it? It's all going to be subjective at that point, he might say "this is fluff" and you can just argue that it's not. If we want to determine how much fluff you've given so far, we can check your filter and determine for ourselves. Give me a percentage of fluff in my filter then. If your going to accuse me of something, at least make is specific. This "you're posting so much fluff" is doing nothing. That's your best reasoning on me so far. What good does this percentage do except make some arbitrary point to argue about endlessly? "50% fluff, scum!!!" "only 25% fluff, clearly not a scum tell!" I'm trying to figure out what you expect to come from such a number. If you're scum and you want alsn to waste time coming up with this percentage, clearly you don't think it'll be damning. Nothing to come out of this number except WIFOM on both sides of the argument. Stop bitching and just give me a damn percentage. Holy shit. I'm not gonna freak out. I already admitted I had fluff Answer the question about what good can come from coming up with a percentage. So I know where my fluff rating stands. So I can determine whether you are being genuine or not based on what I feel Your "fluff rating"? O.o Anyway, my issues were with your reasoning for wanting alsn to spend time doing something that doesn't help town at all. If you could think of reasons why it would help town, great, I was hoping to hear them from you, but you're stuck on just pushing the wasting of time to happen. Get on Alsn if you really want this huge waste of time to happen, not me (I wasn't the one pushing the fluff idea on you), but if you don't give a good answer as to why your "fluff rating" matters to town, I'll consider this you just pushing people to waste time. Again, as I stated before, if you're scum, you clearly don't think your fluff percentage will be a bad thing against you, so it's worthless to even look up at this point. Because I'm town and I'm trying to figure out who's scum. Attacking someone without specific reasoning means you can back out on your argument easier later. Saying "you're posting a lot of fluff" is a very ambigious statement. Why don't you want to just give me a percentage? It's a very simple request. Off the top of your head Well I'm glad you cleared that up. Anyway, you want your number so badly? 35% fluff. Can we move on now? I feel like we reversed 12 hours and we're talking about Cheese's joke. Ok. Finally. I have 65% content in a large filter according to you, which arguably is more contribution to the thread than most. This is why the fluff argument is invalid. See my point Rad? That is all. Now, scumhunting coming
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@Alsn
answered a long time ago. Look at the post above yours
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ebwop ninja'd
Let me try to state it to where you understand
1) You (slyverfyre) accused me of too much fluff without thinking of the content
2) Although there was fluff in my filter, it was a large filter that contained content
3) Thus, I wanted you to do that so you could see that there was plenty of content in my filter
Got it?
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On November 04 2012 08:54 Rad wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Jesus debears, what is with you wanting me to give a percentage estimate of your fluff? When have I ever shown interest in it? That was a conversation between you and someone else (alsn and/or sylver) that suddenly you thought I was the original person. Here's where you first ask me to come up with a percentage: On November 04 2012 02:20 debears wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2012 02:16 Rad wrote:On November 04 2012 02:13 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:07 Alsn wrote:On November 04 2012 02:01 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 01:58 Alsn wrote:On November 04 2012 01:49 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 01:39 Alsn wrote:On November 04 2012 01:13 debears wrote:On November 03 2012 14:44 sylverfyre wrote:
Holy shit, this flavor. What.
If we're gonna lynch a lurker, I'd rather it be early game than late, at least. But I think that we have more... dedication among the townies this game. There wasn't a long wait for the last few signups - everyone here seems pretty pumped to play some mafia seriously. I don't think lurker policy lynch will come up at all. You said townies. That's very different than saying the town or players. Very, very different. It means that you either 1) Think the people being active are townies 2) Know that the people being active are townies There is no other reason for using townies to describe those of us who are showing activeness and dedication Also, you voted me, meaning you voted for someone who you think is townie based on the above. That is scummy as shit debears, even if we hypothetically assume the two most active players are scum, it would still mean that town on the whole is being active and not lurking. I think your argument is bad and your insistence that his statement is a scum slip is far fetched imho. Eh. I think it's very odd to say that townies have good dedication, and I'm one of the guys showing dedication, yet he votes me. Also, what do you think of this part of his post alsn? I kinda expected a bit more... substance in the thread by now. For a guy who hadn't posted anything, why is he calling all the actives out for substance? What good does that do? That part of his post, sure, I agree that it's somewhat a silly statement. It doesn't change the fact that you had been acting very strangely and quite counter-productive to town interests. From where I'm sitting his vote was merited. Especially in light of the fact that he said he meant it as a strong FoS as opposed to a rock solid reason for why you absolutely must be scum. You OMGUSing him most certainly doesn't damage his case. Also, it's unfortunate that I'm indirectly helping him defend himself, but at this point I simply find you/Djod more scummy than him and I figured the chance of him being scum was lower than the risk of you guys getting off the hook if I had stayed silent and just watched. It seems that from the latest developments that other people had the same thought. So, in essence, you think that a vote to tell someone to post less is productive? Being active =/ acting strangely or counter productive I was sparking conversation dude OMGUS is warranted when I find him scummy Again, that isn't even what he said. He said he wanted you to post less fluff and more content. How is that a vote to make you post less? Also, if you're explaining away fluff as sparking conversation I don't know what to say, how is posting a bunch of fluff productive? Either people find you scummy for it(bad if you're town, it lessens your credibility) or people will actually reply with fluff themselves(even worse). How much fluff do you actually see in my filter? Quote it and put it in a spoiler. Then take my quotes that look like they are accomplishing something. and put them in another spoiler. I want to see how much you think his fluff argument holds true. That's quite a lot of work you're asking from him and doesn't really help town much, does it? It's all going to be subjective at that point, he might say "this is fluff" and you can just argue that it's not. If we want to determine how much fluff you've given so far, we can check your filter and determine for ourselves. Give me a percentage of fluff in my filter then. If your going to accuse me of something, at least make is specific. This "you're posting so much fluff" is doing nothing. That's your best reasoning on me so far. I never said you were posting so much fluff. I said that IF you're town, it would be a waste of time for Alsn to split up your entire filter based on fluff vs not fluff, and IF you're scum you clearly don't think that the percentage is damning so it would be a huge waste of time. I've restated it over and over again but you still haven't answered my question. You just keep wanting me to give you a percentage, which doesn't make any sense because I wasn't a part of any argument about the quality of your posts. On November 04 2012 02:56 Rad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2012 02:46 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:44 Clarity_nl wrote:On November 04 2012 02:42 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:39 Rad wrote:On November 04 2012 02:31 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:30 Rad wrote:On November 04 2012 02:27 debears wrote:On November 04 2012 02:26 Rad wrote:On November 04 2012 02:20 debears wrote:
[quote]
Give me a percentage of fluff in my filter then. If your going to accuse me of something, at least make is specific. This "you're posting so much fluff" is doing nothing. That's your best reasoning on me so far. What good does this percentage do except make some arbitrary point to argue about endlessly? "50% fluff, scum!!!" "only 25% fluff, clearly not a scum tell!" I'm trying to figure out what you expect to come from such a number. If you're scum and you want alsn to waste time coming up with this percentage, clearly you don't think it'll be damning. Nothing to come out of this number except WIFOM on both sides of the argument. Stop bitching and just give me a damn percentage. Holy shit. I'm not gonna freak out. I already admitted I had fluff Answer the question about what good can come from coming up with a percentage. So I know where my fluff rating stands. So I can determine whether you are being genuine or not based on what I feel Your "fluff rating"? O.o Anyway, my issues were with your reasoning for wanting alsn to spend time doing something that doesn't help town at all. If you could think of reasons why it would help town, great, I was hoping to hear them from you, but you're stuck on just pushing the wasting of time to happen. Get on Alsn if you really want this huge waste of time to happen, not me (I wasn't the one pushing the fluff idea on you), but if you don't give a good answer as to why your "fluff rating" matters to town, I'll consider this you just pushing people to waste time. Again, as I stated before, if you're scum, you clearly don't think your fluff percentage will be a bad thing against you, so it's worthless to even look up at this point. Because I'm town and I'm trying to figure out who's scum. Attacking someone without specific reasoning means you can back out on your argument easier later. Saying "you're posting a lot of fluff" is a very ambigious statement. Why don't you want to just give me a percentage? It's a very simple request. Off the top of your head Well I'm glad you cleared that up. Anyway, you want your number so badly? 35% fluff. Can we move on now? I feel like we reversed 12 hours and we're talking about Cheese's joke. Ok. Finally. I have 65% content in a large filter according to you, which arguably is more contribution to the thread than most. This is why the fluff argument is invalid. See my point Rad? That is all. Now, scumhunting coming He made up a number to get you to shut up about it. I'm not done with this until you give me a good reason you would want anyone to: a) Go through all your posts (large filter already), separate them into fluff and non fluff b) Come up with an exact percentage of your fluff. If you're town, you wouldn't want anyone to waste their time doing either of the above because it wouldn't matter at all. Scum hunting town is ultimately wasting time in the end. Only you know if you're town, so as town, you would want people to not scum hunt you. You don't have to worry about any fluff case alsn has until it has put you at risk of being lynched. If you're scum, it makes sense to want to make people waste their time. Explain your motivation. Explain it already!
@Rad
Was this a response to my case on you?
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@Rad
When saying how much I "attacked" Obzy, did you notice this at the end of my original post about him?
2) Go ask for some coaching help (It'll help you improve more quickly)
That seems, if anything, like the rebuttal to any of your me attacking obsy accusations. I still find it very odd that you would miss that part, even with confirmation bias
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On November 04 2012 09:29 Rad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2012 09:23 debears wrote:@Rad When saying how much I "attacked" Obzy, did you notice this at the end of my original post about him? 2) Go ask for some coaching help (It'll help you improve more quickly) That seems, if anything, like the rebuttal to any of your me attacking obsy accusations. I still find it very odd that you would miss that part, even with confirmation bias Town motivation: urge people to get help from their coach so they play the game better. Scum motivation: use demeaning words like useless and worthless and then tell them they should go talk to their coach so they think they're bad at the game
That piece is a null tell so don't use it as a defense on you being an anti-town with your attacks.
I've told people to go talk to their coaches before. Ask Djo. I've gotten coaching in each of my games. That in no way means I think you're bad. It's not like I'm sitting high and mighty telling everyone they suck. I know how bad I am.
The premise of your argument on Obsy is that I was attacking him as a person, instead of calling him out for his actions in the game. You're taking this wayyyyy too far.
Funny thing is that Obsy even agrees with me, yet you keep holding on to this point. That is scummy or extremely misguided
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EPT
