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@Djo
How about we just stop the back and forth for now? I think we've gotten everything we can out of each other atm. I'm going to go do something fun (maybe hots!) and if others show up, maybe I'll pop back in, but it feels pretty useless with us just yelling at each other back and forth. I appreciate you being so passionate about your case, but I think if you're town you're confirmation biased against him right now. Maybe try scum hunting someone else for a bit since there's 2 scum, then come back to clarity. We have 2 days until lynch.
I have a question I need answered from sylver, and I expect to see some sort of change in obzy. I want to look into alsn next, but I need to enjoy myself some too and I really prefer interacting with people to determine my reads rather than reading through filters all night.
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@ Rad
First of all, I'm not hunting for blues. I want information to find scum, that is all. Blues are not going to solve the game for us, we have to do it by ourselves. I don't care if I have to out all the blues while scumhunting if the information I get allows me to find the mafia members. I do not appreciate at all the fact that you are retaining information with the excuse that you want to protect the blues. Anyway, if you are afraid for them, please step up and make some cases, force the mafia to kill you by being dangerous for them (if you are town, that is). If you start your day by doing this + Show Spoiler +On November 06 2012 10:07 Rad wrote:
FoS Obzy
FoS Djo
partial FoS Sylver
- If you are town, step up and make some cases. Be a townie and protect the blues by being a danger to the mafia, retaining info is just going to help them.
- If you are mafia, keep defending Clarity for his anti-town behavior and die.
Secondly, my arguments are not stupid. If we assume that we have a town Clarity having a scum read on scum Djodref.
Then, town Clarity is
- Letting other players putting pressure on scum Djodref, missing the opportunity to assess his innocence to everyone by showing townie behavior
- Avoiding a golden opportunity to put pressure on scum Djodref
- The reason that town Clarity gave for this is that he didn't want scum Djodref to have time to prepare his defense against his case, which means that his scumread on me is indeed "stronger and stronger"
- Town Clarity does not want to post his case against scum Djodref at timing when is sure that scum Djodref cannot prepare his defense
- Scum Djodref has somehow threatened town Clarity into not posting his case, scum Djodref is proposing himself for the lynch to look town, scum Djodref posts a case against town Clarity and town Clarity reaction to all this is to posts a case against debears, which has turned out to be town. Town Clarity has yet failed to post his case against scum Djodref.
- Town Clarity doesn't have clear scumreads at the moment
Who is still believing in town Clarity ?
Rad is...
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On November 06 2012 12:22 Djodref wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 12:11 Rad wrote:On November 06 2012 12:07 Djodref wrote:On November 05 2012 08:31 Rad wrote:
Cheese, I've realized you were claiming that, but WHY? What's your motivation to do that at this point in the game? @ RadWhen did you realize he was claiming VT ? With the first claim or the second claim or when he was explicit with it. What did you think of it at that time ? I realized with this post: On November 05 2012 06:56 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:On November 05 2012 06:42 Alsn wrote:
##Unvote
I'm more and more convinced that I may have been wrong about debears. Upon closer inspection I realised that his early FoS in XXIX was against a scum buddy of his, meaning he never planned to follow through on it. So he must have had different reasons for FoSing me early this game. In addition, I have to concede that even if he may have been a bit brusque in his attitude towards some of the newer players, it has indeed gotten them to talk, something which is undoubtedly good for town.
I also may have overestimated the importance of his vote switching. The fact that he did find sylver scummy and then kept arguing with him about it should probably be a town tell, seeing as it revealed a lot of what sylver claimed to be his motivations for voting was.
The problem now though is, I'm not yet convinced that Clarity is scummy, but at this point I don't know who else to vote. I definitely think that Clarity's behaviour seems weird, he didn't really commit to any strong stance until he was pressured to do so by being voted. Yet we could say the same thing about Cheese or even Rad as they've been getting away with "blending in" almost as much as Clarity in my opinion. Cheese's only major stance he has taken yet has been to FoS Djod because Djod thought Cheese joking was scummy, yet what else? Soft-disagreeing with both the lynches because they may or may not be scum?
Not to mention the fact that Cheese isn't even trying to push a Djod lynch even though he said that he's "on the list" when I asked for his strongest reads. He's content with just sitting and soft-commenting and being pretty neutral about everything. I'm not going to push a Djo lynch again, mainly because arguing with him is a game of cat and mouse. I think neutrality is going to become an integral part of my play D1 anyway. Taking a huge stance this early just doesn't seem all that feasible for me, because a lot of my arguments are "nit-picky" as Djo calls it. Once the first person flips, things become a lot more clear to me based on context and I can go from there. At this point, the only reason I'd vote for Debears is to get concrete info, which isn't a good thing. I'd vote Clarity because his Debears counter-case is really OMGUSy and he seems like the person to actively lurk. Brb dinner. Also, Regular Fapper. I'm not going to tell you what I thought of it because that's blue hunting, and I feel I will survive until the night. @ RadStop with the blue hunting bullshit. If you are cop and you had a green check on Clarity, you should tell us right now. It's either that or you are scum with him. You are such an hypocrite in your defense of him ! I point you some points which show clearly anti-town behavior and you keep finding excuses for him.
Wait, you start by saying "stop with the blue hunting bullshit" but then tell him to out his results if he's a cop? Claiming D2 when we don't know if there's a medic (we don't even know if there's a jailkeeper) out there, for just a town investigation (not a scum investigation) is really dicey.
I find this line of reasoning scummy.
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[b]This most recent post by you is even more ridiculously scummy. Don't care if you have to out all the blues while scumhunting? Maybe because you're actually blue-hunting?
##Vote Djodref
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@ sylverfire
I'm seriously pissed off by Rad and Clarity accusing me of blue hunting when I'm looking for information. In my eyes, Clarity is scum at 95% and I don't understand how Rad is failing at seeing it when I present all the facts that show that Clarity has not a town behavior. As I said, either Rad has extra information, either Rad is in the scumteam with Clarity.
Anyway, I think their argument for retaining information is stupid. The best way to protect the blues is to be more dangerous for the mafia than the blues themselves. I do not care if some blues have to claim or if we are outing some blues in the process of scumhunting. BLUES DO NOT SOLVE THE GAME FOR US, TOWN IS !
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I was busy this morning and just finished catching up.
One first thing that comes to mind since the night kill is Djo's really insisting on pushing for a Clarity lynch.
This seems pretty obvious to me as his defense on the role claim is pretty bad. Best example about it is :
He says :
On November 05 2012 23:26 Clarity_nl wrote:
I never claimed VT, I never claimed anything.
But right after CC's second role claim he adds :
On November 05 2012 08:32 Clarity_nl wrote:
I can do that too. I don't wanna pay for no porn man. I don't think that saying that proves anything, can't make an assumption based on the host's behavior. Cheese why did you claim VT?
If this is not role claiming !
However I find Rad's position on the subject smarter. He is a clear target, We should stop tunneling him for some time. There is someone else in the scum team (or two other people if Clarity is not).
I have not read your filter like I said I would Rad (remember my gut feeling on you), but recently you have looked really town to me, so I am not that concerned
Djo, however, I would still like people to look at him closely.
Only two things he has been doing is:
- tunnel Clarity, hence retaining information to the town, not trying to diversify the targets.
- blue hunting as well big time during all N1 and since the beginning of D2.
I really believe he could be bussing his mate to gain town credit or just keep the attention on him.
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On November 06 2012 11:52 Rad wrote:
@Sylver
Why did you stay on cheese when you had a chance to vote on debears, who you thought was scummier?
1 -I didn't see the chance, I was too busy trying to make sense of the shitstorm (shit, I even posted past marv calling for a stoppost)
2 - I didn't think people would follow me if I voted for Debears, which is why I switched to cheese (I was trying to push debears over before a flood of people voted cheese. I gave up on the debears case and voted for #2 on my top 2, confident that if I was right about cheese, people would believe me about debears too. I was wrong about cheese, and about debears.
3 - I didn't realize that cheese voting debears as a good reason to switch my vote back for debears, bringing debears up to 3. Had I switched back, he was only 1 vote off from saving cheese (didn't realize this.)
We now know that I was wrong about debears, so I'm really not sure what lynching him instead would have accomplished.
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On November 06 2012 13:44 sylverfyre wrote:
This most recent post by you is even more ridiculously scummy. Don't care if you have to out all the blues while scumhunting? Maybe because you're actually blue-hunting?
##Vote Djodref
[b] sylverfyre
If you are town, please ask yourself if your point against me is enough to justify a vote. Please bring a complete case against me if you are seriously wanting me lynched today. Which is not going to happen because I'm right..
If you are mafia, you are welcome to find more shitty reasons to vote me.
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On November 06 2012 13:35 Djodref wrote:@ RadFirst of all, I'm not hunting for blues. I want information to find scum, that is all. Blues are not going to solve the game for us, we have to do it by ourselves. I don't care if I have to out all the blues while scumhunting if the information I get allows me to find the mafia members. I do not appreciate at all the fact that you are retaining information with the excuse that you want to protect the blues. Anyway, if you are afraid for them, please step up and make some cases, force the mafia to kill you by being dangerous for them (if you are town, that is). If you start your day by doing this + Show Spoiler +On November 06 2012 10:07 Rad wrote:
FoS Obzy
FoS Djo
partial FoS Sylver without backing it up with anything and just go back to IRL with only one or two questions for Obzy and Sylver, be sure that the mafia is laughing at you and is never going to kill you. If you don't present some cases (and there is enough material to do so) or if you don't really push anyone (I don't feel your pressure by the way), you are giving some opportunity for the mafia to NK a blue instead of you. To sum up - If you are town, step up and make some cases. Be a townie and protect the blues by being a danger to the mafia, retaining info is just going to help them.
- If you are mafia, keep defending Clarity for his anti-town behavior and die.
Secondly, my arguments are not stupid. If we assume that we have a town Clarity having a scum read on scum Djodref. Then, town Clarity is - Letting other players putting pressure on scum Djodref, missing the opportunity to assess his innocence to everyone by showing townie behavior
- Avoiding a golden opportunity to put pressure on scum Djodref
- The reason that town Clarity gave for this is that he didn't want scum Djodref to have time to prepare his defense against his case, which means that his scumread on me is indeed "stronger and stronger"
- Town Clarity does not want to post his case against scum Djodref at timing when is sure that scum Djodref cannot prepare his defense
- Scum Djodref has somehow threatened town Clarity into not posting his case, scum Djodref is proposing himself for the lynch to look town, scum Djodref posts a case against town Clarity and town Clarity reaction to all this is to posts a case against debears, which has turned out to be town. Town Clarity has yet failed to post his case against scum Djodref.
- Town Clarity doesn't have clear scumreads at the moment
Who is still believing in town Clarity ? Rad is...
This works as well with scumClarity and scumDjodref.
Except that you earn HUGE town credit when he flips scum.
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@djo
I spent ~3 hours since the NK discussing mostly with you and some with obzy. Our conversation got stale as hell and I have to enjoy my real life too or I will go mfing insane tomorrow trying to work. Don't even BEGIN to claim I'm not helping town just because I won't role claim right now. Of course if we kill all the scum then it doesn't matter if everyone in the game role claimed and all the blues were outted, because in the end town won. But WHAT POSSIBLE REASON do you think any of us have to believe you're town and you have town's best interests in mind? Do you think you're confirmed town by anyone at this point? Why the hell would anyone want to give you information when that information isn't appropriate to give right now from a town perspective.
About your clarity town vs djo scum garbage, you're missing the clarity town djo town scenario. Don't think it's possible that he had bad reads on you and you have bad reads on him? Why is it the case that one of you MUST be scum?
Always remember this: shitty town is not scum. We learned that from you last game, try to see if he fits and stop thinking all your points are pure gold. Rethink them. You have no idea how convinced I was that kush was scum last game and I was totally off. That shit can happen so you need to step back and get a grip.
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@ Daoud
I'm tunneling Clarity right now because you and me are the only two wanting a Clarity lynch today right now. I've tried to convince Rad and he has called my arguments stupid.
Obzy wants to lynch sylverfyre.
sylverfyre wants to lynch me.
I don't know what thinks Alsn nor Rad nor Clarity.
I guess that you are town because I feel that you are honest in your post, especially the one where you react at Cheese claim after the fact. I might be wrong and I did not look at you in details but I'm not going to bother with this when we have to convince town to lynch Clarity today.
I understand that you think that I might be bussing my partner but could you wait for Clarity flip before thinking of this. Association cases before flip are stupid.
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@Rad
What do you think of my latest case against Djo ?
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@Djodref
You're getting increasingly hostile.
You're defending outing as many blues as it takes after only 1 night in the name of scumhunting. A cop claiming himself and 1 townie today is not going to help for very far into the game as both of them will probably be dead by the time LyLo rolls around. Yes, we need to find scum for ourselves. However, blues need to survive for a while or else we're looking at 5 town v 2 mafia... mislynch one more time and we're at LyLo. If we have no blues at a 3v2 lylo, and we don't KNOW who the 2 mafia are, we're probably (but not necessarily) fucked.
This is not the first questionable strategy you've pushed. I still disagree with how you want to approach lynching by not looking for a strict majority.
I still think clarity is scummy looking. But right now, you're being incredibly fishy with your tactics and your statements. Don't forget all the points I brought against you day 1. And the fact that I thought that 1 of either you or debears was likely scum... and debears flipped town.
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On November 06 2012 13:55 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 11:52 Rad wrote:
@Sylver
Why did you stay on cheese when you had a chance to vote on debears, who you thought was scummier? 1 -I didn't see the chance, I was too busy trying to make sense of the shitstorm (shit, I even posted past marv calling for a stoppost) 2 - I didn't think people would follow me if I voted for Debears, which is why I switched to cheese (I was trying to push debears over before a flood of people voted cheese. I gave up on the debears case and voted for #2 on my top 2, confident that if I was right about cheese, people would believe me about debears too. I was wrong about cheese, and about debears. 3 - I didn't realize that cheese voting debears as a good reason to switch my vote back for debears, bringing debears up to 3. Had I switched back, he was only 1 vote off from saving cheese (didn't realize this.) We now know that I was wrong about debears, so I'm really not sure what lynching him instead would have accomplished.
Alright sylver, I admit it was chaotic as hell. Thanks for answering. BTW you switching to debears would have brought it to 4 (me, da0ud, cheese, you). I think cheese still gets lynched in that situation but it would have given the opportunity for someone else to jump on debears to make it happen.
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With regards to Sylverfyre -
He said he'd be around for the day post and wasn't, but - that's just more of a note, and has absolutely nothing to do with my voting him. He made noise early in the game about a debears/djo (one of the above) as scum, particularly focusing debears. Looks at a scumteam of CC and debears during the role PM... stuff. Eventually switches his vote onto CC from debears, puts suspicion on Clarity [and db, of course].
On November 05 2012 10:01 sylverfyre wrote:If cheese flips town, it's clarity or debears. Probably both.
It clearly isn't debears. He shows a strong town read on Rad, although I think that's fairly obvious, personally.
(And now that I'm refreshing the last page to make sure I'm not missing something, he's shown up and redirects suspicion at Djo because debears flipped town.) I'm really a bit less certain what to think of this lol. If Clarity is town, and da0ud is town, it leaves Djo Sylv.. /shrug. Sylv's not addressing my vote on him at all, still. And apparently he just voted Djo too lol. If Djo/Sylv have a shootout, I'm okay with that at the moment, unless Clarity can be shown [by Rad or Alsn or da0ud, preferably] to have clear mafia signs.
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On November 06 2012 14:00 da0ud wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 13:35 Djodref wrote:@ RadFirst of all, I'm not hunting for blues. I want information to find scum, that is all. Blues are not going to solve the game for us, we have to do it by ourselves. I don't care if I have to out all the blues while scumhunting if the information I get allows me to find the mafia members. I do not appreciate at all the fact that you are retaining information with the excuse that you want to protect the blues. Anyway, if you are afraid for them, please step up and make some cases, force the mafia to kill you by being dangerous for them (if you are town, that is). If you start your day by doing this + Show Spoiler +On November 06 2012 10:07 Rad wrote:
FoS Obzy
FoS Djo
partial FoS Sylver without backing it up with anything and just go back to IRL with only one or two questions for Obzy and Sylver, be sure that the mafia is laughing at you and is never going to kill you. If you don't present some cases (and there is enough material to do so) or if you don't really push anyone (I don't feel your pressure by the way), you are giving some opportunity for the mafia to NK a blue instead of you. To sum up - If you are town, step up and make some cases. Be a townie and protect the blues by being a danger to the mafia, retaining info is just going to help them.
- If you are mafia, keep defending Clarity for his anti-town behavior and die.
Secondly, my arguments are not stupid. If we assume that we have a town Clarity having a scum read on scum Djodref. Then, town Clarity is - Letting other players putting pressure on scum Djodref, missing the opportunity to assess his innocence to everyone by showing townie behavior
- Avoiding a golden opportunity to put pressure on scum Djodref
- The reason that town Clarity gave for this is that he didn't want scum Djodref to have time to prepare his defense against his case, which means that his scumread on me is indeed "stronger and stronger"
- Town Clarity does not want to post his case against scum Djodref at timing when is sure that scum Djodref cannot prepare his defense
- Scum Djodref has somehow threatened town Clarity into not posting his case, scum Djodref is proposing himself for the lynch to look town, scum Djodref posts a case against town Clarity and town Clarity reaction to all this is to posts a case against debears, which has turned out to be town. Town Clarity has yet failed to post his case against scum Djodref.
- Town Clarity doesn't have clear scumreads at the moment
Who is still believing in town Clarity ? Rad is... This works as well with scumClarity and scumDjodref. Except that you earn HUGE town credit when he flips scum.
@ daoud
I know but you HAVE to think about this after the flip. I'm very confident that Clarity is going to flip red but again, we need this information BEFORE starting association cases. Ask anyone else here, they are going to tell you the same thing.
What do you think about Alsn ?
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I like what da0ud's doing. It basically amounts to "If we're so sure about clarity, why don't we stop focusing on him and find the second scum?"
+ Show Spoiler [Inactivity Warning] +Can't post more tonight, have to be up early in the morning (or I won't get a chance to vote in the election all day) and I might not post much tomorrow at all - I have class AND work.
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Why are you so sure that an association case is bad to focus on before the flip? Do you think clarity might flip town?
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On November 06 2012 14:03 Rad wrote:
@djo
I spent ~3 hours since the NK discussing mostly with you and some with obzy. Our conversation got stale as hell and I have to enjoy my real life too or I will go mfing insane tomorrow trying to work. Don't even BEGIN to claim I'm not helping town just because I won't role claim right now. Of course if we kill all the scum then it doesn't matter if everyone in the game role claimed and all the blues were outted, because in the end town won. But WHAT POSSIBLE REASON do you think any of us have to believe you're town and you have town's best interests in mind? Do you think you're confirmed town by anyone at this point? Why the hell would anyone want to give you information when that information isn't appropriate to give right now from a town perspective.
About your clarity town vs djo scum garbage, you're missing the clarity town djo town scenario. Don't think it's possible that he had bad reads on you and you have bad reads on him? Why is it the case that one of you MUST be scum?
Always remember this: shitty town is not scum. We learned that from you last game, try to see if he fits and stop thinking all your points are pure gold. Rethink them. You have no idea how convinced I was that kush was scum last game and I was totally off. That shit can happen so you need to step back and get a grip.
@ Rad
The point in my argumention is not that one of us has to be scum (my alignment did not matter, I just wanted to emphasize how anti-town is his behavior in the case I would be scum), the main point is that he did not show town behavior in my interactions with me if he really had a scum read on me (which would be a bad read of course because I am town) and he did not show town behavior in his interactions with Cheese. And Clarity did not show town behavior before that as well (please refer to my case and debears case on him). I'm going to tunnel Clarity today until the moment when you are going to say, "ok, let's lynch him today".
What's your read on him by the way ? Why are you defending him so much ?
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EPT
