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On November 05 2012 23:26 debears wrote:
@Everyone
One more thing on Sylver:
After reading through his filter, during the claim time, there's one thing really apparent:
he did not care that cheese was getting lynched. He hardly talked about whether we should believe cheese or not. His whole time was spent painting targets on the back of me and clarity
I said what I thought about cheese at the time. His move looked scummy. You trying to squeeze through a VT mass claim very late into the situation (well after anyone else) I found even more scummy.
On November 05 2012 09:03 debears wrote:
Ok. Let's try this
Who didn't know about everyone having the role pm?
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Scumslips in everyone of my posts? Exaggerate much?
Also, telling the blues how to play is fishy.
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How have I flown under the radar? There's been pressure on me every minute since the game started (even before I made my first post debears called me out as "epic useless[ness]" even though the game had only been going a few hours.
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I was replying to clarity saying he could find scumslips in every post.
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On November 06 2012 12:22 Djodref wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 12:11 Rad wrote:On November 06 2012 12:07 Djodref wrote:On November 05 2012 08:31 Rad wrote:
Cheese, I've realized you were claiming that, but WHY? What's your motivation to do that at this point in the game? @ RadWhen did you realize he was claiming VT ? With the first claim or the second claim or when he was explicit with it. What did you think of it at that time ? I realized with this post: On November 05 2012 06:56 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:On November 05 2012 06:42 Alsn wrote:
##Unvote
I'm more and more convinced that I may have been wrong about debears. Upon closer inspection I realised that his early FoS in XXIX was against a scum buddy of his, meaning he never planned to follow through on it. So he must have had different reasons for FoSing me early this game. In addition, I have to concede that even if he may have been a bit brusque in his attitude towards some of the newer players, it has indeed gotten them to talk, something which is undoubtedly good for town.
I also may have overestimated the importance of his vote switching. The fact that he did find sylver scummy and then kept arguing with him about it should probably be a town tell, seeing as it revealed a lot of what sylver claimed to be his motivations for voting was.
The problem now though is, I'm not yet convinced that Clarity is scummy, but at this point I don't know who else to vote. I definitely think that Clarity's behaviour seems weird, he didn't really commit to any strong stance until he was pressured to do so by being voted. Yet we could say the same thing about Cheese or even Rad as they've been getting away with "blending in" almost as much as Clarity in my opinion. Cheese's only major stance he has taken yet has been to FoS Djod because Djod thought Cheese joking was scummy, yet what else? Soft-disagreeing with both the lynches because they may or may not be scum?
Not to mention the fact that Cheese isn't even trying to push a Djod lynch even though he said that he's "on the list" when I asked for his strongest reads. He's content with just sitting and soft-commenting and being pretty neutral about everything. I'm not going to push a Djo lynch again, mainly because arguing with him is a game of cat and mouse. I think neutrality is going to become an integral part of my play D1 anyway. Taking a huge stance this early just doesn't seem all that feasible for me, because a lot of my arguments are "nit-picky" as Djo calls it. Once the first person flips, things become a lot more clear to me based on context and I can go from there. At this point, the only reason I'd vote for Debears is to get concrete info, which isn't a good thing. I'd vote Clarity because his Debears counter-case is really OMGUSy and he seems like the person to actively lurk. Brb dinner. Also, Regular Fapper. I'm not going to tell you what I thought of it because that's blue hunting, and I feel I will survive until the night. @ RadStop with the blue hunting bullshit. If you are cop and you had a green check on Clarity, you should tell us right now. It's either that or you are scum with him. You are such an hypocrite in your defense of him ! I point you some points which show clearly anti-town behavior and you keep finding excuses for him.
Wait, you start by saying "stop with the blue hunting bullshit" but then tell him to out his results if he's a cop? Claiming D2 when we don't know if there's a medic (we don't even know if there's a jailkeeper) out there, for just a town investigation (not a scum investigation) is really dicey.
I find this line of reasoning scummy.
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[b]This most recent post by you is even more ridiculously scummy. Don't care if you have to out all the blues while scumhunting? Maybe because you're actually blue-hunting?
##Vote Djodref
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On November 06 2012 11:52 Rad wrote:
@Sylver
Why did you stay on cheese when you had a chance to vote on debears, who you thought was scummier?
1 -I didn't see the chance, I was too busy trying to make sense of the shitstorm (shit, I even posted past marv calling for a stoppost)
2 - I didn't think people would follow me if I voted for Debears, which is why I switched to cheese (I was trying to push debears over before a flood of people voted cheese. I gave up on the debears case and voted for #2 on my top 2, confident that if I was right about cheese, people would believe me about debears too. I was wrong about cheese, and about debears.
3 - I didn't realize that cheese voting debears as a good reason to switch my vote back for debears, bringing debears up to 3. Had I switched back, he was only 1 vote off from saving cheese (didn't realize this.)
We now know that I was wrong about debears, so I'm really not sure what lynching him instead would have accomplished.
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@Djodref
You're getting increasingly hostile.
You're defending outing as many blues as it takes after only 1 night in the name of scumhunting. A cop claiming himself and 1 townie today is not going to help for very far into the game as both of them will probably be dead by the time LyLo rolls around. Yes, we need to find scum for ourselves. However, blues need to survive for a while or else we're looking at 5 town v 2 mafia... mislynch one more time and we're at LyLo. If we have no blues at a 3v2 lylo, and we don't KNOW who the 2 mafia are, we're probably (but not necessarily) fucked.
This is not the first questionable strategy you've pushed. I still disagree with how you want to approach lynching by not looking for a strict majority.
I still think clarity is scummy looking. But right now, you're being incredibly fishy with your tactics and your statements. Don't forget all the points I brought against you day 1. And the fact that I thought that 1 of either you or debears was likely scum... and debears flipped town.
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I like what da0ud's doing. It basically amounts to "If we're so sure about clarity, why don't we stop focusing on him and find the second scum?"
+ Show Spoiler [Inactivity Warning] +Can't post more tonight, have to be up early in the morning (or I won't get a chance to vote in the election all day) and I might not post much tomorrow at all - I have class AND work.
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Why are you so sure that an association case is bad to focus on before the flip? Do you think clarity might flip town?
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##Unvote
Yes, I wanted you to stop bluehunting. I criticize you for bluehunting twice. You stopped bluehunting. Really had to get that to stop Djodref. I'm having a really hard time making sense of this, when you are employing tactics that make no sense.
And djo, I really do mean townies in this quote
"Scum love nothing more than when two townies are at each others throats constantly without looking at other people."
Why would I say players here? It completely changes the meaning of the sentence. I explained this earlier.
And shortly after making that, I unvoted debears and started looking in other places.
On November 05 2012 10:01 sylverfyre wrote:
My chance following cheesecake voting debears?
If cheese flips town, it's clarity or debears. Probably both.
Finally, this is AFTER the vote deadline. Marv specifically said that votes after the deadline don't count. I was trying to figure out at this point if we were being misled and who was responsible for it. A mislynch on a VT can give info, after all, and it's not the end of the world.
What's the lack of consistence in activity? That I was more active during the weekend? It's a weekend.
Also, as has been brought up before, many tactics are less effective if you are telling the target what you're doing.
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Djodref wrote
Do you have any idea the power you would have given to town with 3 confirmed townies ?
No, you wanted to avoid this, so you spread doubt and confusion.
My point is that you would have sympatize with debears and cheese if you were also a VT, especially with Cheese because you had no reason to suspect him beforehand (his play being very similar to yours), even with the extra information that you had, because you would have been before in their position, ie with no information at all.
Did you see debears reaction after this, he tried to confirm all the VT alltogether. It would have ended the game...
I'm sorry but you are not VT, and I hope that all the other VTs in this game can realize this after this poat.
What? No, it wouldn't end the game. It would end with blue roles being hunted all game, while scum players can easily claim to be as clueless as VTs because they know who's who. If scum even confirms a few VTs, they get to target blue roles easily at night. I don't get why you put so little value in blue roles, Djo.
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Mafia games are balanced such that "instant mass roleclaims" (such as Follow the Cop, if you have a game with a standard cop and a standard doctor and no mafia power roles) don't win games a disproportionate amount of the time. This particular game, it's balanced by the fact that a Medic can't protect a claimed cop every night, and jailkeeper can't protect a cop without causing the obvious problem. Furthermore, the potential mafia power roles also prevent an obvious mass roleclaim scenario from resulting in a win.
You know what you get day 1 if you get 3 "confirmed" townies? You get scum hiding in the confirmed townies (like I am inclined to believe Clarity was attempting to do when he got Cheesecake to "Confirm" him as town) and you hand scum a massively inflated chance of targetting blues at night. But you don't make the blues any more believable by town, and you may still find that one or more of "confirmed" townies are dead by the time LyLo comes around because they're confirmed.
Djodref, What do YOU think we would have accomplished if went through with confirming a bunch of VT through debears method on day 1?
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On November 07 2012 01:23 Rad wrote:One more thing on this point: Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 21:01 Djodref wrote:
ok, we have now 2 VT dead. Both of them were at least as experienced on playing mafia on this forum if not more for debears. Both of them did not ask the host about the flavor or whatever.
Go back and read debears at the point he realized what cheese was talking about. He did not realize the PM flavor was not in the OP until cheese pointed it out. You can damn well bet that clarity read every bit of that OP after he got modkilled last game from not knowing the rules.
Hm. Good point. Also damn good reason to go doublechecking with the mod before posting about receiving mod PM stuff. Makes sense. I'm not convinced that you can use it to make a case that Clarity isn't scum, but it does convince me that Djodref's arguments make no damn sense. Are you trying to throw someone under the bus?
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Rad's becoming more convincing.
Obzy I find strange, because it feels like he was actually MORE active during the night phase than day phase.
And I'm not sure what to read into the statement, but it strikes me wrongly.
On November 06 2012 11:15 Obzy wrote:Hm. I think if you're banking on me upping my play and showing off hidden skills, you'll be disappointed. I was hoping to get NK'd because reading is more fun than playing IMO, having experienced it a bit, but didn't expect it because there's no reason to NK me yet. If I'm going to assume that Clarity is town, then that leaves Sylv as the only scum I feel relatively confident in voting. Me Rad Alsn dead-cc dead-db - Clar is tentative ^^ That would leave Djo, Sylv, and da0ud. Djo was going crazy attacking Clar and was waiting for DB's supposed case on Sylv - If I'm assuming Clar is town, it makes me wonder about that, I guess. I'd like to vote Sylv. Before Day1 post finished, I wanted to vote Clar - I feel like trusting his answer though if that makes sense. The fact that you and Alsn had town reads on him (iirc) implies that I was just outright wrong. I've sort of ignored da0ud. I put a lot of time into reading the thread early on and kinda snapped and decided to try to worry about this game less, and he took awhile to start posting relative to the game's start. I've been largely trusting other peoples' opinions on him and not bothering looking critically. I have difficulty seeing nuances in da0ud/djo's typing styles[not that I'm a good judge anyways D: ] but Djo has been talking more often. Show nested quote +On November 06 2012 11:00 Rad wrote:You don't step on anyone's toes, but you need to start. I guess ##Vote Sylverfyrethen.
You're voting me, but I get the feeling you're listening more to other arguments against me than making any of your own. I'm confused what to think of you until you make a case today. This post feels too much like a subtle "playing the newbie card"
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Passed out after getting home from work, sorry. Catching up. I've read up to current, but there's posts I want to take another look at.
Djo claiming JK is super risky, but I believe the claim. This is why I don't doubt it:
It's possible that there IS no jailkeeper this game, because it's not an fixed setup. He could, theoretically, be a lucky scum who took a big risk and hoped to pick a role nobody could counterclaim. But the risk is big enough that I'm willing to believe that if Djo were scum, he wouldn't make this move. There's only 3 possible power roles, and it's likely that 2 of those are in play. I believe Djo.
On November 07 2012 09:28 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2012 08:59 da0ud wrote:
I personally think that if we had confirmed all the VTs it would only have made sense for scum to kill them at night and not the blue. They want to keep uncertainty and don't want to be outnumbered by VTs.
I think this is as well the reason Debears got killed cause he is the one who got the most genuine reaction to CC claim.
Like I stated earlier in response to sylver. If it was possible to 100% no doubt whatsoever confirm every VT in the game the game would be over. Unless there are more than 2 blue players, all the VTs would have to do is vote out a non-vt every day. Even if they mislynch the blue players twice in a row, they would still be 3 VT vs 2 scum at the beginning of D3. The fact remains, there's no way to confirm all the VTs because anyone(blue or scum) could just lie and say that they are VT. Stop discussing it please, it leads nowhere.
Agreed. The only reason I think it would be helpful for scum is that scum might be more willing, or more importantly, quicker to lie than blues (though, blues fake claiming VT on day 1 like this is pretty much the required move, tbh) about being VT. I really think that mass claim VT on day 1 isn't a guaranteed help (no way of preventing scum from lying) and I thought that the risk of outing our blues but having undue faith in a scum was too dangerous. Thus, I didn't want to mass claim D1.
I'm done talking about why I didn't want a mass VT claim day 1. Everything I think about it is now on record.
I'm still not sure why Djo wanted to out blues (there's probably only 1 more), especially since as a Jailkeeper, he can't protect them without making them useless (though I guess they'd still be confirmed town.)
This excerpt particularly makes no sense:
Because you gave strong hints that you are blue, which is something that I cannot believe, being blue myself.
Obzy's continues acting really apologetic. He also backed off of me after minimal counterpressure. The wishywashyness certainly isn't helping.
Clarity ... deserves his own post to address him.
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Ugh. This is making less sense as I read through Clarity's filter. The argument with Djo, the big case on Obzy. I don't understand anymore. I need more time to put together something coherent. I even almost called him out on saying "oh just lynch the two inactives" which makes exactly ZERO sense right now, before reading the rest of that same post.
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Whoa, obzy's defense is... awkwarrrrrrrd.
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Djo, what exactly, to be clear, are you calling out as Clarity's lie?
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No surprises here. Nothing he's said has absolved him. And I have no reason to doubt Djo's alignment (though I still reserve the right to doubt his strategy calls - as risky as it was to claim, it worked. Well.
##Vote Clarity
Sorry I haven't been very active today. It's kinda my birthday and I had a really long day (I'm sure a few of you noticed the icon on me while server was on November 6)
da0ud, are you saying I'm preferred based on WIFOM that rad is more associated with clarity, therefore it ISN'T Rad? I attacked clarity pretty much right after the lynch Day 1.
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EPT
