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On October 23 2012 04:56 austinmcc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 02:54 austinmcc wrote:
I think we all get our thoughts in the open, even if we think someone is going to leap on them for being scummy.
I think we need that. I think we need to quit worrying about what's scummy or townie or anything, and get thoughts into the thread.
We don't immediately gang up on anyone and shut them down if they post something scummy, because that actually seems to have been counterproductive.
Everyone just stop being afraid of posting something, looking scummy, whatever, and play the game. Hapa and Keirathi, do you find the above to be a good plan of action? If not, where would you make modifiations?
Well I mean I don't think that would work out the way you intend it to. If we stop worrying about what's scummy or townie, how can we get thoughts into the thread? Playing the game by nature involves making judgements on this.
I think we have a great little line of discussion going right now (Z-Bo case), and I'm not in the mood to talk policy right now. What do you think of Z-Bo?
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Posting from phone dont lynch z-bos wait untll I get home please.
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On October 23 2012 05:27 iamperfection wrote:
Posting from phone dont lynch z-bos wait untll I get home please.
So you don't find him scummy then? Do tell.
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On October 23 2012 05:27 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 05:27 iamperfection wrote:
Posting from phone dont lynch z-bos wait untll I get home please. So you don't find him scummy then? Do tell.
I don't think he doesn't find him scummy, he just doesn't want the hammer while he's afk, might have someone else he finds scummier.
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So what do you think about him then Draz?
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On October 23 2012 05:43 drazak wrote:
About which?
Z-Bo
Well you can do iamperfection if you want to as well
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On October 23 2012 05:23 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2012 04:56 austinmcc wrote:On October 23 2012 02:54 austinmcc wrote:
I think we all get our thoughts in the open, even if we think someone is going to leap on them for being scummy.
I think we need that. I think we need to quit worrying about what's scummy or townie or anything, and get thoughts into the thread.
We don't immediately gang up on anyone and shut them down if they post something scummy, because that actually seems to have been counterproductive.
Everyone just stop being afraid of posting something, looking scummy, whatever, and play the game. Hapa and Keirathi, do you find the above to be a good plan of action? If not, where would you make modifiations? Well I mean I don't think that would work out the way you intend it to. If we stop worrying about what's scummy or townie, how can we get thoughts into the thread? Playing the game by nature involves making judgements on this. I think we have a great little line of discussion going right now (Z-Bo case), and I'm not in the mood to talk policy right now. What do you think of Z-Bo?
The stop worrying about what's scummy or townie applies to ... people not writing down their thoughts? Maybe it's just me, but especially with stuff like being bloodthirsty, I don't think that's entirely a townie thought. It makes me not want to post it. Like, why would a townie post "I want to lynch someone, even if we're not entirely certain of their scumminess?"
I assume that not everyone is doing that, but I think that, to some extent, some of the folks with lower activity have points. Whenever they've posted, they get jumped on immediately. It makes them less likely to contribute, especially if they're town, because posting = getting shat on, and nobody taking their thoughts at face value. See above with v7 giving two reads and thread going "AMG TWO READS ONLY?!?!!? SCUMSCUMSCUMSCUMSCUM."
So I'm applying that to the actual thoughts themselves, not to...actual scumhunting. I'd rather everyone just POST, and others not just leap all over every thought going SCUM SCUM SCUM. It's something I've done. It's something I'm trying not to do here, because it's generally going to be counterproductive. You're going to tunnel without thinking things through fully AND you're going to disincentivize posting from the people you most want to post. Neither is good.
I'm suggesting not crapping on thoughts the moment they get posted. I'm suggesting that low activity posters, whether they like their reads or not, whether they find themselves wishy washy or without fully formed reads or WHATEVER, just go ahead and post them. drazak, keirathi, v7, etc.
Thoughts on Z-BosoN in a separate post.
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OMFG
3) then you re-define "easy reads" again to mean my unvote on v7.
I quoted the wrong post because THERE IS NO POST THAT HAS ME CHANGING MY DEFINITION OF EASY READ AS YOU MENTION IN THE ABOVE.
In the post you quoted,
WHERE THE FUCK AM I REDEFINING "EASY READS"???
Please fucking explain to me how can one go from this:
Also, I don't get why people are thinking I'm sheeping. First of all, there's not really much to say on v7.
Second of all, I actually did spend quite some time pondering whether I should give the vote hammer or not. Why are you attacking me right now, and not before? Makes 0 sense.
The hapa thing, I attacked him because he unvoted v7 when I completely disagreed with his reasoning to do so.
@Hapa
All of a sudden? So I spend like 10 posts saying why I think you are suspicious, and you say, "all of a sudden"?
Fuck off. Not willing to lynch you != I think you are townie.
I have no heart defending myself here. Most of this shit comes from a lack of reading and erratic interpretations. I've made cases vs. kei and hapa, but concluded that v7 deserved the best lynch. How is this fucking scummy? Better yet, how is this scummier over ppl like kei and v7 who aren't doing shit?
Wanna talk about sheeping? Try Kei, who hasn't done shit and suddenly goes for me as soon as DP opens the door.
into this:
3) then you re-define "easy reads" again to mean my unvote on v7.
Oh, but folks, I used an s. Omg. Big fucking woop. Did I not later say I meant v7? Much before I had any suspicion on that regard?
Oh, no big deal? Let's pause and think here. At first, you didn't find anything special about it, not even when you were suspicious of me. Now, suddenly, when I actually have votes on me, you redefine your own fucking interpretations on what I write to make me look scummy, even though they had already been cleared a long time ago. And, ironically, your argument against me is that I'm redefining my definition of "easy reads"?
Man, your whole fucking case is based on your dreamy little fantasy world interpretations of every fucking thing I say. Turn your demented tunnel vision glasses off and realize how bad your current case on me is. Even DarthPunk's arguments make more sense than yours.
Unless you actually say something that actually doesn't make me want to strangle you to your death, I give up trying to convince a rabid dog that a rock is not a steak.
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A lot of the above is, again, me trying to adjust my play after seeing some starkly different games.
In rock band, town was quite cooperative. Things were active. People posted, stuff happened, we had good reads and bad reads but overall ACTIVITY made things happen. BH made a relatively silly case, marv OMGUSed palmar, mementoss claimed vigi with this giant post, etc. etc. Everyone was just active and posting.
In GSL Open 2, and in some days of Looney Lynching, there just wasn't a lot going on. 2-3 players max were just talking and talking, and scum was hiding inside the pack of more inactive players.
So I'm trying both to get everyone more active, by just posting MORE even if it's not finely crafted, even if you think it's not the best read or not a fully formed thought, because that makes scum have to post more or stand out, and scum posting more gives us a better chance of catching them.
I also think it improves the atmosphere. We've got from joke-y but not scumhunt-y earlier in the day (nice atmosphere but not productive) to very accusatory and confrontative, where people are getting leapt on for everything they say (not as "nice" an atmosphere, more productive but I'm unsure how much so).
I want to aim for the middle of that. For more posts, more activity, and some scumhunting based off that. But scumhunting rather than just "AMG YOU GONE 20 HOURS AND THIS IS ALL WE GET?"
Stuff like that, at least to me, isn't scumhunting, because I don't see why scum would be absent, then come back and give thought on just a player or two. I don't think that would be optimal scum play, you'd either stay clammed up or you'd post giant walls of thoughts that were carefully tuned and whatnot. If you disagree with that, cool, let's talk about that one, because you're getting scummy vibes off something I think would be a poor decision for scum to make, when they could easily do other things instead.
And yeah, this is all super policy-y, but oh well. If it creates a better environment, if we can get everyone to post more and post more off-the-cuff, then I think we have a better chance of town taking this game. If we're still partially diddling around D1, this is what my brain comes up with when I'm trying to think of proactive ways to diddle around while waiting for everyone to play this game.
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Wrong-O again.
Remark #3 was made specifically made in response to suspicions about your "easy reads" stuff. Kei's case on you in particular.
You can quip all you want about to about how I'm misinterpreting you, but the context is undeniable. Your suspicions on me are not consistent. For some reason, you're forgetting and changing the rationale of your suspicions to suit your own interests. You are scum.
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^ Above was directed to Z-Bo
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This is the biggest irony I have ever seen
For some reason, you're forgetting and changing the rationale of your suspicions to suit your own interests.
Anyways, since I have three votes, if someone wants to vote for me, please say why, and be very clear, and let me defend myself before you vote, I'm actually giving a shit about this game and am already being twice as active as I intended to be.
Don't just agree with hapa because I genuinely think that his case on me is full of shit, mixing in a really really forced interpretation of things that weren't even important in my posts, please see the exchange above as unbiased as you can and remember hapa is the tunnel-vision king.
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But let's lay it out for the town to see:
Also, I don't get why people are thinking I'm sheeping. First of all, there's not really much to say on v7.
Second of all, I actually did spend quite some time pondering whether I should give the vote hammer or not. Why are you attacking me right now, and not before? Makes 0 sense.
The hapa thing, I attacked him because he unvoted v7 when I completely disagreed with his reasoning to do so.
@Hapa
All of a sudden? So I spend like 10 posts saying why I think you are suspicious, and you say, "all of a sudden"?
Fuck off. Not willing to lynch you != I think you are townie.
I have no heart defending myself here. Most of this shit comes from a lack of reading and erratic interpretations. I've made cases vs. kei and hapa, but concluded that v7 deserved the best lynch. How is this fucking scummy? Better yet, how is this scummier over ppl like kei and v7 who aren't doing shit?
Wanna talk about sheeping? Try Kei, who hasn't done shit and suddenly goes for me as soon as DP opens the door.
What did Z-Boson make this post in reply to? Well let's take a look at what just happened in the thread.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=376602¤tpage=24#462
Here's kei's case on Z-Bo. In particular, this line:
Here he says he is calling Hapa out for the "easy read" on v7, when that's EXACTLY what he did. In fact, he didn't (and still hasn't) give any reasoning of his own. Just sheeped onto the current bandwagon.
Kei explicitly questions Z-Bo on the "easy read" and why he is holding a double standard for it. Z-Boson directly responds to KEI's CASE with the following, oft quoted line:
The hapa thing, I attacked him because he unvoted v7 when I completely disagreed with his reasoning to do so.
There it is, plain as day. Z-Boson is not consistent about why he attacked me. He's not referring to a "separate event", he's specifically responding to Kei's case, about the question of the "easy read", and is mixing up why he's suspicious of me.
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Z-BosoN
Again, I'm focused more on the game at hand than a player's meta.
I see a decent amount of activity early. I see him engaging a LOT of players. Many of his larger posts address the thoughts of, or ask questions to, multiple players. That feels townie to me. Gut read on that is that Z-BosoN is playing, is noticing a couple things, and is posting about all that, rather than just trying to look active.
Very focused on equating play this game with play from past games. Hapa feels off compared to usual. DP remember this thing from that other game? DP meta feels like townie based on his other games. Again, gut read, I find trying to connect play this game to other games townie. There's a catch in that it allows him a lot of outs, because he doesn't have to be as focused on THIS game and what's happening now, can always make cases on people based on play in other games. Watching for that as I go through his filter.
He's hopping all over the place. At one point he's going to look at me and someone else because he's been focused on everyone else, and writing about everyone else. The desire to look at EVERYONE feels townie to me? Why wouldn't scum start settling on targets to push.
He gets very involved in both making a case on me, then ... kind of chainsaw defending me? And that buddying post with him agreeing with every single thing in a post I made for the first time. That strikes me as odd. My paranoid thought there is that I always seem to find him scummy and poke at him, but I'm not here, and him buddying/defending me maybe keeps me from looking at him too hard? But I think that's an overly paranoid thought.
I think all the effort between him and you is...not scummy? I don't think it is, but he could just be trying to shift the discussion from his play away from what he's been doing and more to this him/you fight. Again, I don't think that's the case.
I actually have a town read on him, looking at all that, I guess. DP's scumread seemed, in large part, based around Z-BosoN's past play. I actually usually find Z-BosoN scummy, so maybe he's scum and I find him townie this time, who knows. But I don't want to vote him.
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On October 23 2012 06:06 Z-BosoN wrote:
This is the biggest irony I have ever seen
For some reason, you're forgetting and changing the rationale of your suspicions to suit your own interests.
Anyways, since I have three votes, if someone wants to vote for me, please say why, and be very clear, and let me defend myself before you vote, I'm actually giving a shit about this game and am already being twice as active as I intended to be.
Don't just agree with hapa because I genuinely think that his case on me is full of shit, mixing in a really really forced interpretation of things that weren't even important in my posts, please see the exchange above as unbiased as you can and remember hapa is the tunnel-vision king.
Irony, how so? I'm not the one misinterpreting my own posts.
Of course I change my opinions on other player's posts - that's the whole freggin idea of analysis. One revisits posts and reads them with a fresh set of eyes and armed with new information. Of course I'm going to re-interpret my posts on other players.
The real scummy shit is when you re-interpret your own posts to mean different things. THAT's scummy.
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EBWOP:
Of course I'm going to re-interpret my posts on OF other players.
Typed that one w/out proofreading, weeee.
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My above post is entirely uninteractive with this hapa/Z-BosoN stuff because...I quit reading it. I'll look back over it, but I think you should both knock it off on that point.
I don't really see scum getting into these long drawn up mud-slinging contests. Like...I'd either go "You're right; I'm wrong here" or "Okay okay, I see where you're coming from but I disagree and I'm going to go hunt scum now instead of doing this."
Prolonged fighting, page after page, with 1 other person over somewhat of a minute issue, doesn't feel scummy to me. If my thoughts on that change after slogging through you two's recent posting, I'll update that.
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I don't misinterpret my own posts. I tell you what I meant when I posted them, trying to give evidence to back it up, and that goes against your biased-as-fuck interpretations. Since you are always right, you conclude that I misinterpret my posts. That's different from me misinterpreting my posts because I actually made them and in my POV you are the one who's heavily warping everything I say.
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@austin: I'm not exactly sure what you want from me?
Just dump a big list of any thoughts about every single person? That doesn't actually seem helpful, and I am loathe to do it.
I still think we should be lynching Z-Bo.
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EPT
