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On October 01 2012 07:03 Crossfire99 wrote:So, I think Keirathi's conflicting reasons for his earlier behavior that austin already pointed out are weird, but it isn't enough for me to vote for him right now. I'll need some more evidence. I'm confused about Drazerk. I guess I haven't played with him before and some people seem to have used this to inform their decision. As for Jingle, I don't think that we can use the fact that he posted a defense when he did as justification for voting for him. If he continually has that timing, then I'll use that as evidence. Also, I think people are reading too much into Jingle's early vote on Drazerk because I'm confused by Drazerk, and can understand Jingle's reasoning for voting him. But some of you are saying that Drazerk is just acting like his normal self...so I guess I'm still just confused by Drazerk... I don't understand this post of yours, Drazerk. Show nested quote +On October 01 2012 06:05 Drazerk wrote:
Scum don't make mistakes third party do
Screw third party and all their back stabbing goodness
Don't scum make mistakes, too? And isn't that how we catch them?
So what are you sure of? What did you think about ghost's vote on Keirathi?
On October 01 2012 12:03 strongandbig wrote:
Hey guys
So I'm just checking in
I call Drazerk out for scummy play
He says "I play like this always so you can't call me out for it"
My response: okay so we lynch you for it, you know it's scummy play but you do it anyway.
When is the deadline?
You mind actually responding to anything that's going on in the thread? You and I both know that Drazerk is not going to change the way he plays.
You can start by responding to my question here:
On October 01 2012 04:02 HiroPro wrote:
hey s&b you think keirathi is telling the truth with his plan or do you think he came up with reasons for it afterwards?
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On October 01 2012 13:19 HiroPro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2012 07:03 Crossfire99 wrote:So, I think Keirathi's conflicting reasons for his earlier behavior that austin already pointed out are weird, but it isn't enough for me to vote for him right now. I'll need some more evidence. I'm confused about Drazerk. I guess I haven't played with him before and some people seem to have used this to inform their decision. As for Jingle, I don't think that we can use the fact that he posted a defense when he did as justification for voting for him. If he continually has that timing, then I'll use that as evidence. Also, I think people are reading too much into Jingle's early vote on Drazerk because I'm confused by Drazerk, and can understand Jingle's reasoning for voting him. But some of you are saying that Drazerk is just acting like his normal self...so I guess I'm still just confused by Drazerk... I don't understand this post of yours, Drazerk. On October 01 2012 06:05 Drazerk wrote:
Scum don't make mistakes third party do
Screw third party and all their back stabbing goodness
Don't scum make mistakes, too? And isn't that how we catch them? So what are you sure of? What did you think about ghost's vote on Keirathi? Show nested quote +On October 01 2012 12:03 strongandbig wrote:
Hey guys
So I'm just checking in
I call Drazerk out for scummy play
He says "I play like this always so you can't call me out for it"
My response: okay so we lynch you for it, you know it's scummy play but you do it anyway.
When is the deadline? You mind actually responding to anything that's going on in the thread? You and I both know that Drazerk is not going to change the way he plays. You can start by responding to my question here: Show nested quote +On October 01 2012 04:02 HiroPro wrote:
hey s&b you think keirathi is telling the truth with his plan or do you think he came up with reasons for it afterwards?
Maybe you could give your opinions on those questions? So far, the only real opinion you've given on anyone in this game was "I don't think your point about JingleHell was very good".
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Actually, I guess you wouldn't want to answer those questions yourself before Crossfire and S&B answer them.
So how about an opinion on austin changing his conclusion towards my case super easily?
And maybe a quick read of Mementoss while you're at it?
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here's what im thinking right now
hiro might be scum because he's posted a lot of small one-liners and asked a bunch of questions but not actually contributed much of anything of his own in terms of reads or analysis.
drazerk might be scum because he switched his read from keirathi to me for little reason. not giving any reason why he unvoted keirathi shows that he doesn't really care about who he votes for, he just wants to push the thread around. he knows that he and i often get into shitfights and it's advantageous for him as scum to try and start one, as long as he thinks i won't be able to push a scum read on him through, which he probably does because he's arrogant. the thing is - his argument works both ways around - he says that I should know he doesn't actually try to win as town, but he focuses on third party, so my calling him out for that makes me scum. The thing is, I call him out for that every game - his attempting to call me out on it this game for being scum makes no sense. he's trying to use circular logic but it backfired.
mattchew is sort of trying to scumhunt. this is very helpful in narrowing down his playstyle. he's either doing his bus-all-the-scum scum routine, or he's actually townie. mattchew very rarely makes up fake scum reads on town players when he's scum, he either posts cases on his teammates or just lurks the shit out of everything. so what that means is you can put a high amount of trust that his reads are genuine - he's either bussing or actually trying to find scum.
crossfire99 - pretty focused on drazerk
nisani - lol. what a "case".
also ##vote: drazerk
I think he's probably scum and I want him out of this game.
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@hiro's question about keirathi's plan
so i assume the plan you're talking about is "make a shitty case on purpose to start discussion" ?
it's a god-awful plan, the only discussion you'll start is people saying "what a shitty case, you sure you give a fuck this game?"
also kenpachi rule lol
also keirathi says "I don't think Drazerk is scummy. I feel like he was just legitimately trying to keep the discussion rolling after I unvoted. You'll notice that I didn't question his motives, I just responded to his questions and kept rolling. He was right to call out my unvote. He's was wrong about my intentions, but it was the right move for a townie."
- first drazerk "legitimately trying" as town? you have no fucking clue what you're talking about.
second this reads pretty sketchy to me, scum like to ingratiate themselves with townies who are suspicious of them as long as their lynch appears remote.
so yeah, keirathi not looking too great to me right now.
but i'm not sure about it - i'm actually not sure if you're right to call it a "plan" - sometimes townies do make weak cases right at the start of a day to get the ball rolling. it's just a thing, not a plan or a gambit or whatever. So I think he may not have been thinking to himself, 'i'll make this case as shitty as possible to bait out responses', but he could have been thinking 'this is dead so even though there's nothing to work with i'll do what i can."
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On October 01 2012 14:25 strongandbig wrote:
here's what im thinking right now
hiro might be scum because he's posted a lot of small one-liners and asked a bunch of questions but not actually contributed much of anything of his own in terms of reads or analysis.
drazerk might be scum because he switched his read from keirathi to me for little reason. not giving any reason why he unvoted keirathi shows that he doesn't really care about who he votes for, he just wants to push the thread around. he knows that he and i often get into shitfights and it's advantageous for him as scum to try and start one, as long as he thinks i won't be able to push a scum read on him through, which he probably does because he's arrogant. the thing is - his argument works both ways around - he says that I should know he doesn't actually try to win as town, but he focuses on third party, so my calling him out for that makes me scum. The thing is, I call him out for that every game - his attempting to call me out on it this game for being scum makes no sense. he's trying to use circular logic but it backfired.
mattchew is sort of trying to scumhunt. this is very helpful in narrowing down his playstyle. he's either doing his bus-all-the-scum scum routine, or he's actually townie. mattchew very rarely makes up fake scum reads on town players when he's scum, he either posts cases on his teammates or just lurks the shit out of everything. so what that means is you can put a high amount of trust that his reads are genuine - he's either bussing or actually trying to find scum.
crossfire99 - pretty focused on drazerk
nisani - lol. what a "case".
also ##vote: drazerk
I think he's probably scum and I want him out of this game.
I seem to remember Mattchew making a rather large case against gonzaw in Not Themed. But I think it was on like day3, after he pushed his scumbuddy talis on day 2 and just coasted day 1.
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oh also keirathi i think you said you have a slight meta-based townread on iamperfection, could you tell us about his meta in your opinion? if you didn't say this then whoever did say this pls answer that question but i think it was keirathi.
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On October 01 2012 14:33 strongandbig wrote:
oh also keirathi i think you said you have a slight meta-based townread on iamperfection, could you tell us about his meta in your opinion? if you didn't say this then whoever did say this pls answer that question but i think it was keirathi.
It was me. I've played with scum iamperfection in a newbie game a couple months ago, and observed a few of his recent townie games. In his townie games he is cocky, while in his scum game he was careful and lurky. I know it was a while ago, and that doesn't necessarily mean he wouldn't be cocky if he rolled scum again if he was more confident in his play, but my initial read was town.
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On October 01 2012 14:20 Keirathi wrote:
Actually, I guess you wouldn't want to answer those questions yourself before Crossfire and S&B answer them.
So how about an opinion on austin changing his conclusion towards my case super easily?
And maybe a quick read of Mementoss while you're at it?
I found it a little strange to be honest. But the the thing it didn't seem to be a response to anything that someone else posted. It was him making the post on his own initiative (not an opinion that he felt forced to give or change). So I'm more inclined to think that he was actually just rereading and found something that he missed before. And I found his first point to be good. So kinda leaning town on him for that.
On October 01 2012 03:18 austinmcc wrote:Keirathi, I'm a little troubled by this when I look back through your explanation: Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 13:01 Keirathi wrote:Of course my case is bad. I certainly don't think you are scum for something so...inconsequential. But this thread needed to move past setup speculation and into people giving real, meaningful opinions and thoughts that they can be held accountable for. Although, I was hoping that other people would weigh in on it before you responded  ##Unovte When you unvote, you specifically note that you want real, meaningful opinions that people can be held accountable for. So you're interested in getting discussion going in general. Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 14:20 Keirathi wrote:
Matt took my case seriously, and gave a solid response. I don't need to wait for other people to come into the thread to tell me that. No reason to leave my vote on him anymore, it accomplished my goal. This seems to not match up. If you wanted people to give opinions, how was your goal accomplished when only Mattchew responded?
Null on mementoss. He hasn't done anything that's caught my eye.
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On October 01 2012 14:30 strongandbig wrote:@hiro's question about keirathi's plan so i assume the plan you're talking about is "make a shitty case on purpose to start discussion" ? it's a god-awful plan, the only discussion you'll start is people saying "what a shitty case, you sure you give a fuck this game?" also kenpachi rule lol also keirathi says Show nested quote +"I don't think Drazerk is scummy. I feel like he was just legitimately trying to keep the discussion rolling after I unvoted. You'll notice that I didn't question his motives, I just responded to his questions and kept rolling. He was right to call out my unvote. He's was wrong about my intentions, but it was the right move for a townie." - first drazerk "legitimately trying" as town? you have no fucking clue what you're talking about.
second this reads pretty sketchy to me, scum like to ingratiate themselves with townies who are suspicious of them as long as their lynch appears remote. so yeah, keirathi not looking too great to me right now. but i'm not sure about it - i'm actually not sure if you're right to call it a "plan" - sometimes townies do make weak cases right at the start of a day to get the ball rolling. it's just a thing, not a plan or a gambit or whatever. So I think he may not have been thinking to himself, 'i'll make this case as shitty as possible to bait out responses', but he could have been thinking 'this is dead so even though there's nothing to work with i'll do what i can."
First point: I've never played with, nor read a game that Drazerk was in afaik (well, except for the Caller game thats running. But that was a troll game to begin with). So I honestly have no idea what his meta is supposed to be. He jumped in and gave me something to talk about when my case was shut down.
Second point: so, its impossible for a townie to have a town read on someone just because that person is suspicious of you? I don't understand that logic. And its a lose-lose situation for me. If I think he's scummy, someone calls it OMGUS. If I think he's townie, you say I'm ingratiating myself.
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On October 01 2012 14:30 strongandbig wrote:@hiro's question about keirathi's plan so i assume the plan you're talking about is "make a shitty case on purpose to start discussion" ? it's a god-awful plan, the only discussion you'll start is people saying "what a shitty case, you sure you give a fuck this game?" also kenpachi rule lol also keirathi says Show nested quote +"I don't think Drazerk is scummy. I feel like he was just legitimately trying to keep the discussion rolling after I unvoted. You'll notice that I didn't question his motives, I just responded to his questions and kept rolling. He was right to call out my unvote. He's was wrong about my intentions, but it was the right move for a townie." - first drazerk "legitimately trying" as town? you have no fucking clue what you're talking about. second this reads pretty sketchy to me, scum like to ingratiate themselves with townies who are suspicious of them as long as their lynch appears remote. so yeah, keirathi not looking too great to me right now. but i'm not sure about it - i'm actually not sure if you're right to call it a "plan" - sometimes townies do make weak cases right at the start of a day to get the ball rolling. it's just a thing, not a plan or a gambit or whatever. So I think he may not have been thinking to himself, 'i'll make this case as shitty as possible to bait out responses', but he could have been thinking 'this is dead so even though there's nothing to work with i'll do what i can."
Do you think that keirathi would make points like this as scum? They read pretty townie to me.
On September 30 2012 13:01 Keirathi wrote:For completeness sake, though, I did go back through all of your games up to Movie Star, and the only pattern was that you seem to claim town if you get into the thread early, and otherwise say you are catching up and reading the thread in your first post
On October 01 2012 05:55 Keirathi wrote:
Here's how I see it: I could have just said "Hey guys lets stop speculating about the setup and someone do some scumhunting!", or I could have pointed out what I found mildly scummy and accomplished the same goal in a better way because now people actually have something to actually talk about.
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About Drazerk:
Can someone tell me why Drazerk might be scum?
I'm genuinely interested, because I can't seem to read him right. I get the feeling he's one of those kind of players you just have to keep alive throughout the whole game to analyse their play.
As in, you need a large time span to gauge his contributions and actions and see if they are anti-town or not because they rarely contribute at any specific time and just troll or post irrelevant stuff and just kind of hang around.
Saying "because he switched his vote with little reason" is not enough since that's one of those things I kind of assume his kind of player does most of the time (vote and unvote randomly, or just sheep, talk about irrelevant stuff and never giving enough good reasoning behind their actions, etc).
The way I think of it, Drazerk had the chance to shit up the thread a lot but didn't take it, instead just "discussed" his read on Keirathi (somehow, I don't really understood what he did there) and then backed off, which doesn't seem something his type of player would do as scum IMO, specially early on D1.
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On October 01 2012 15:12 gonzaw wrote:
About Drazerk:
Can someone tell me why Drazerk might be scum?
I'm genuinely interested, because I can't seem to read him right. I get the feeling he's one of those kind of players you just have to keep alive throughout the whole game to analyse their play.
As in, you need a large time span to gauge his contributions and actions and see if they are anti-town or not because they rarely contribute at any specific time and just troll or post irrelevant stuff and just kind of hang around.
Saying "because he switched his vote with little reason" is not enough since that's one of those things I kind of assume his kind of player does most of the time (vote and unvote randomly, or just sheep, talk about irrelevant stuff and never giving enough good reasoning behind their actions, etc).
The way I think of it, Drazerk had the chance to shit up the thread a lot but didn't take it, instead just "discussed" his read on Keirathi (somehow, I don't really understood what he did there) and then backed off, which doesn't seem something his type of player would do as scum IMO, specially early on D1.
What did you think of this part of s&b's post, gonzaw:
On October 01 2012 14:25 strongandbig wrote:
he knows that he and i often get into shitfights and it's advantageous for him as scum to try and start one, as long as he thinks i won't be able to push a scum read on him through, which he probably does because he's arrogant. the thing is - his argument works both ways around - he says that I should know he doesn't actually try to win as town, but he focuses on third party, so my calling him out for that makes me scum. The thing is, I call him out for that every game - his attempting to call me out on it this game for being scum makes no sense. he's trying to use circular logic but it backfired.
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On October 01 2012 14:58 HiroPro wrote:Do you think that keirathi would make points like this as scum? They read pretty townie to me. Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 13:01 Keirathi wrote:For completeness sake, though, I did go back through all of your games up to Movie Star, and the only pattern was that you seem to claim town if you get into the thread early, and otherwise say you are catching up and reading the thread in your first post
While I appreciate the read, this in particular shouldn't give you a townie read on me. Go read the post game comments from GSL Open Mini Mafia. I specifically mentioned that I spent a lot of time in filters and digging through meta to strengthen (or crush) cases that I was planning to make, even though I was scum.
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Anyways, its 1:30am. I'm going to sleep. I'll answer anymore questions when I wake up in the morning.
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On October 01 2012 15:22 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2012 14:58 HiroPro wrote:Do you think that keirathi would make points like this as scum? They read pretty townie to me. On September 30 2012 13:01 Keirathi wrote:For completeness sake, though, I did go back through all of your games up to Movie Star, and the only pattern was that you seem to claim town if you get into the thread early, and otherwise say you are catching up and reading the thread in your first post While I appreciate the read, this in particular shouldn't give you a townie read on me. Go read the post game comments from GSL Open Mini Mafia. I specifically mentioned that I spent a lot of time in filters and digging through meta to strengthen (or crush) cases that I was planning to make, even though I was scum.
That's not exactly it. I vaguely observed GSL Open and remembered you looked town in that game.
It's that you did the meta before you made the case which suggests that you were actually having a plan and not throwing something out and then trying to justify it afterwards. And that you were aware of what the correct play was as scum (saying "stop talking about setup", which doesn't actually help in any way) but chose not to do it.
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On October 01 2012 15:16 HiroPro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2012 15:12 gonzaw wrote:
About Drazerk:
Can someone tell me why Drazerk might be scum?
I'm genuinely interested, because I can't seem to read him right. I get the feeling he's one of those kind of players you just have to keep alive throughout the whole game to analyse their play.
As in, you need a large time span to gauge his contributions and actions and see if they are anti-town or not because they rarely contribute at any specific time and just troll or post irrelevant stuff and just kind of hang around.
Saying "because he switched his vote with little reason" is not enough since that's one of those things I kind of assume his kind of player does most of the time (vote and unvote randomly, or just sheep, talk about irrelevant stuff and never giving enough good reasoning behind their actions, etc).
The way I think of it, Drazerk had the chance to shit up the thread a lot but didn't take it, instead just "discussed" his read on Keirathi (somehow, I don't really understood what he did there) and then backed off, which doesn't seem something his type of player would do as scum IMO, specially early on D1. What did you think of this part of s&b's post, gonzaw: Show nested quote +On October 01 2012 14:25 strongandbig wrote:
he knows that he and i often get into shitfights and it's advantageous for him as scum to try and start one, as long as he thinks i won't be able to push a scum read on him through, which he probably does because he's arrogant. the thing is - his argument works both ways around - he says that I should know he doesn't actually try to win as town, but he focuses on third party, so my calling him out for that makes me scum. The thing is, I call him out for that every game - his attempting to call me out on it this game for being scum makes no sense. he's trying to use circular logic but it backfired.
I don't really know what to think of it.
Drazerk and S&B seem to be bitching at each other quite a lot and seem bound to use confirmation bias against each other.
S&B can easily misinterpret Drazerk's motivations for calling him out and I don't really know how much some of those statements are true, like "I call him out for that every game" and that Drazerk apparently should know that if he was town.
That's the kind of stuff that starts pointless shitstorms (generally between townies).
Unless there's a specific example of a town/scum Drazerk acting like S&B says he'd act then I can't think much of it (again, considering it's Drazerk we are talking about).
About S&B:
Hmm, I find your behaviour quite odd. You are not playing like you used to in Magic Mini (where you at least tried to contribute and appear you did, whether it was setup related or fluff), or in Can't Believe (where you started on D1 with lots of explanations and that seemed more aggressive).
I do tend to misinterpret your D1 behaviour though, so I'll leave it at that and see how you follow up with it. I just want to tell you that your D1 behaviour is odd (and so was your Can't Believe D1 behaviour as well), and I don't know if you are doing that on purpose or not.
You just have an "I don't care" attitude going on that I don't like and makes it hard to distinguish it from a scum attitude.
If you are town try to care more about the game and your own game please, unless you want me to start another pointless bickering battle with you
Anyways, the people that I'm actually interested in seemed to have disappeared. Oh well.
Anyways.....tomorrow I have a test, then I have to go to uni so I won't be home in nearly all day, so I don't know if I'll be around for the deadline (don't really know when it is).
Just in case I miss it I'll make a placeholder vote on iamperfection:
##Vote: iamperfection
I don't have a strong read on him at all, but after rereading it's the strongest one I have.
None of his posts seemed to contribute at all, and even his ghost vote seemed "easy" to latch on. He doesn't have anything else to go on, so it's a safe bet I think.
Others I could have placed a vote on would be JingleHell, Mementos or Nisani, but I'm not sure at all about them. I really need to see how they will act towards contributing and towards the lynch, right now they seem passive, lurky and nothing else (I'd consider keeping austin/ghost/others alive until I get more info on them)
But considering nobody else has done anything in the last hours (in terms of contributing to the lynch, or discussion, etc) and everybody seemed to have the same "meh I don't really care" apathetic attitude it's difficult to assert if they are doing it out of a scum motivation or are just townies that aren't doing shit because nobody else is doing shit.
@Hiro: Keirathi's "plan" and reaction is not exactly what makes him town. I think he's fairly town for obvious reasons and people should know of them if they read the thread (they are too subtle to explain right now though).
Those reasons are some of the ones why I think you are town too for instance (won't dwell on that though).
Hopefully those that are still suspicious of you/Keirathi (ghost and S&B for instance) read the thread and respond back.
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EBWOP:
Mattchew, please don't go scummy lurky on us 
You started off good so keep it up, I want contributions from you.
Hmm, although you started off "good" on Can't Believe too and had me fooled for a time there, and you going lurky made it possible to figure out you were scum.
If you are town try not to do that, just in case it may be confused with your scum play. If you are scum I think you'll do that anyway (I doubt you'll change your scum play that much) so no worries.
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United Kingdom31255 Posts
S+B why the 2 small posts when we played in Bastard 2 together and had this exact same argument?
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On October 01 2012 08:53 iamperfection wrote:
@ memen why did you not include strongandbig when you mentioned that i did not include anything of "value" yet.
Because the difference between you and him at that point was you were active at 3 different occasions in the thread and chose not to say anything. S&B was active at the very start of the game, and then never posted, theres a difference I consider that inactive. Anyways, needless to say, I really disagree on the meta arguement that you are town, by their point, it would seem that you are fitting your scum play. At least when you posted in Rockband mini you had a purpose and you're one liners had something to do with the important discussion in town.
Here is the quote im referring to:
On October 01 2012 14:35 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2012 14:33 strongandbig wrote:
oh also keirathi i think you said you have a slight meta-based townread on iamperfection, could you tell us about his meta in your opinion? if you didn't say this then whoever did say this pls answer that question but i think it was keirathi. It was me. I've played with scum iamperfection in a newbie game a couple months ago, and observed a few of his recent townie games. In his townie games he is cocky, while in his scum game he was careful and lurky. I know it was a while ago, and that doesn't necessarily mean he wouldn't be cocky if he rolled scum again if he was more confident in his play, but my initial read was town.
His play sure looks careful and lurker to me. Compare to this game: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=369250 where he is pretty agressive and constantly active throguhout the discussion from the get go.
##Unvote: Austinmcc
##Vote: Iamperfection
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EPT
