EPTRead that post of mine:
+ Show Spoiler +
On October 09 2012 08:23 Kreb wrote:
Ok, time to post something before the night kills as I promised. Here are the reason I will most likely be voting VE next day if I'm alive. Also note that a lot of these things have already been posted, but with all the different tells which have been posted throughout the thread its probably a good idea to bunch them together somewhere.
1) The Node wagon.
This post:
+ Show Spoiler +
is the most scummy thing about it.
1a) He only says he read through austins filters, but he very nicely avoids posting what he found in it. Instead he refers to "the two walls of his" as if that somehow makes everything 100% clear. He still, as of today, has not explained why he changed.
1b) His extremely weak (on unexisting) reason to switch to Node. Someone (who people seem to regard a very strong player) should not change that easily to such a weak case it was.
2) Refusing to answer to said cases and other quetions
I just know what I asked him stuff myself, like this:
+ Show Spoiler +
And he also refused to comment at all on my other accusations. To my knowledge he still hasnt said a word on the Node wagon yet.
3) The way he targetted annul
3a) His targetting D1 actually seemed to have a bit of reason behind it, but right after the Shady mislynch he says this:
+ Show Spoiler +
Once again, no explanation. Just straight up calling annul scum. It goes on for a while and the only legitimate reason I could see for his targetting of annul was the fact that annul suggested a vote switch (to ZBoson i think) very close to the deadline even though he had questioned vote switching before. While I did agree on that particular point against annul, that alone did in no way motivate the way VE attacked him. Also, it seemed like that reason only was revealed a bit after he had already started attacking annul, like he found about it later. A proper townie would have explained first and targetted after.
3b) Also he tried to paint annul as some really crafty mafia so the rest of us would be suspicious of him too, even though there wasnt as much to be suspicious of. mkfuba made a good case on that part:
+ Show Spoiler +
4) Meta reads
This isnt something I can really confirm but I'll add it since it makes sence because of how many peopel have expressed them. Talismania started off by calling his meta scummy early D1. That kinda died off (probably for a good reason), but since then a lot of people have commented on how VE as town is MUCH more active, sometimes/often (?) something of a town leader and being much more contributory than how he is this game.
5) Extremely scummy (or bad if he really is town) scumhunting
Already posted about this, here:
+ Show Spoiler +
6) His post-marv-revelation behavior
6a) After having had many people saying they were suspicious of him post Marvs revelation, how did he reply? He replied with some wierd extreme confidence. Look here:
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Here:
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And here:
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Im not sure why scum would really wanna do that, but its 100% not towny to do. Compare to DPs case on Keirathi for example, or the french dudes on Shiao. No matter whether you like the cases or not, both Kei and Shiao were properly there to respond to the cases like a town should. VE did something completely different. Also note how he never really commented on this afterwards either, but rather seems to be banking on it being forgotten.
To me, it seems more likely he "gave up" or "lost interest" (someone already pointed that out, I think it was Coag, and VE rejected it) due to the percieved OPness/sillyness of the Paramedic role. He probably intented some kind of agressive/confident defense initally, but then just didnt care about it enough.
6b) Also note how he went trollmode with marv for a while (towny thing to do? hell no.) Its quite clear he enjoys playing with marv, which further strengthens the belief that he lost interest/gave up when Marv got caught in such a silly way.
7) Marvs motive behind his discussion with me
Ok, this is a new point, but I saved maybe the best for last. Lets look again at the context of Marvs behaviour of my case. First, lets look at what I wrote:
Later I also kinda halfassed bunched Kush into my group of scummy people. So what do we know now:
- Node is scum (I was wrong)
- Austin was twon (I was wrong)
- Marv is scum (I was right)
Now, lets for a moment assume both VE and Kush are town. And with that assumption in mind, lets look at what Marv had to say about my case:
Later turning into:
Now, specifically note how he is targetting me. Not the part of my case directed to him, but me (and my case) as a whole. Now, why would you want to do that if I only were right about Marv being scummy!!?? Why would he react like that if I was wrong about Node, Austin, VE and Kush?!!?
Theres absolutely no reason to. The aggressiveness of his defense clearly tells me I was onto something more than just him. If he was the only thing I had right in my post, theres several other much better approaches he couldve used to abuse my mis-reads.
He could have agreed on it, admitting it was wierd (which likely would have had me going straight after VE), knowing that there was a very high chance I'd go after a town. But he didnt.
He could have defended himself alone, citing town reads on VE as reason why he followed him. He didnt.
He could have not said anything at all, hoping it would turn into a austin or VE lynch. He didnt.
Instead he decided to go and agressively discredit me and as such my whole case. And I just cant see why he would do that if the only thing I predicted right was Marvs scummyness. I think I must have hit something more to motivate this response. And while it could possible be Kush, I think VE is the most likely person. Or hell, maybe even both.
Bonus point
+ Show Spoiler +
Ok, time to post something before the night kills as I promised. Here are the reason I will most likely be voting VE next day if I'm alive. Also note that a lot of these things have already been posted, but with all the different tells which have been posted throughout the thread its probably a good idea to bunch them together somewhere.
1) The Node wagon.
This post:
+ Show Spoiler +
On October 02 2012 10:54 VisceraEyes wrote:
Well, I went over austin's filter and was coming back to tell you guys that I didn't want to lynch him based upon it, and then I saw two walls of his. We're not lynching austin today.
I'm liking a Node lynch. I do NOT think we have the votes to make it happen. I still like a Shady lynch, but more and more it's feeling like an angry townie ragequitting the game more than a scummy manipulation tactic. However his explanation for his trolling was totally bullshit and I can get behind his lynch more than kj/austin.
Well, I went over austin's filter and was coming back to tell you guys that I didn't want to lynch him based upon it, and then I saw two walls of his. We're not lynching austin today.
I'm liking a Node lynch. I do NOT think we have the votes to make it happen. I still like a Shady lynch, but more and more it's feeling like an angry townie ragequitting the game more than a scummy manipulation tactic. However his explanation for his trolling was totally bullshit and I can get behind his lynch more than kj/austin.
is the most scummy thing about it.
1a) He only says he read through austins filters, but he very nicely avoids posting what he found in it. Instead he refers to "the two walls of his" as if that somehow makes everything 100% clear. He still, as of today, has not explained why he changed.
1b) His extremely weak (on unexisting) reason to switch to Node. Someone (who people seem to regard a very strong player) should not change that easily to such a weak case it was.
2) Refusing to answer to said cases and other quetions
I just know what I asked him stuff myself, like this:
+ Show Spoiler +
On October 02 2012 19:54 Kreb wrote:
@VE
Three lines of text, three questions:
1) What gave you the scum-read on annul? You were targetting him previously but to my knowledge your last stance on him was this:
Has this changed? If so, why?
2) Why do you like austin?
3) Why do you dislike Mattchew?
@VE
Three lines of text, three questions:
1) What gave you the scum-read on annul? You were targetting him previously but to my knowledge your last stance on him was this:
Has this changed? If so, why?
2) Why do you like austin?
3) Why do you dislike Mattchew?
And he also refused to comment at all on my other accusations. To my knowledge he still hasnt said a word on the Node wagon yet.
3) The way he targetted annul
3a) His targetting D1 actually seemed to have a bit of reason behind it, but right after the Shady mislynch he says this:
+ Show Spoiler +
On October 02 2012 13:25 VisceraEyes wrote:
That's not the worst part. The worst part is we lynched a townie. That's just a bad, expected, forseeable part.
The worst part is that we didn't fucking lynch scum annul.
That's not the worst part. The worst part is we lynched a townie. That's just a bad, expected, forseeable part.
The worst part is that we didn't fucking lynch scum annul.
Once again, no explanation. Just straight up calling annul scum. It goes on for a while and the only legitimate reason I could see for his targetting of annul was the fact that annul suggested a vote switch (to ZBoson i think) very close to the deadline even though he had questioned vote switching before. While I did agree on that particular point against annul, that alone did in no way motivate the way VE attacked him. Also, it seemed like that reason only was revealed a bit after he had already started attacking annul, like he found about it later. A proper townie would have explained first and targetted after.
3b) Also he tried to paint annul as some really crafty mafia so the rest of us would be suspicious of him too, even though there wasnt as much to be suspicious of. mkfuba made a good case on that part:
+ Show Spoiler +
On October 03 2012 23:51 mkfuba07 wrote:
Alright, I'm going to be getting a bit more rest since I woke up for Code S. Current thoughts:
I could definitely see VE being scum. His unfortunate scumhunting is a big piece of the puzzle, but his interaction with annul keeps nagging at me.
It took me a while to figure out why I was so annoyed by these posts, but I think I've figured it out. VE first emphasizes that as scum annul can become "scary" (which I assume means that he can appear to become a good contributor, though VE never actually says how annul becomes "scary"), but leaves out the fact that he might do the same exact thing as town. It doesn't feel like VE is trying to inform the town of annul's apparent meta, as much as emphasize the scummy aspects of annul's meta and attribute it entirely to scum-annul.
It would feel the same way if marv came in and said that I can be incredibly wishy-washy as scum. He's emphasized in previous games that I am the master of wishy-washiness regardless of alignment (though I've only ever been scum once, for little over a day). If he were to come into this game and try to convince everyone that I'm only wishy-washy when I'm scum, then I would be incredibly suspicious of him (In fact, I believe that's part of why he avoided talking about me at all despite my case being in the same post as the Node one).
In VE's case, it looks like he tried to do a similar thing, and then when annul called him out on it he tried to minimize the effect. Why say that scum-annul can be "scary" if town-annul can also be "scary" unless you're trying to make vigis take the shot without a proper reason? It seems like a pretty scummy interaction from VE.
I'd really like to hear thoughts from others, as this is the first thing I feel pretty confident about this game.
Finally, I'm still waiting on input from mementoss... I know that 15 pages is a lot to go through, but I'm not going to put him aside just because one of the people who was calling him out is going to flip scum. There are other lurkers, but he's promised more contributions twice now, and we've seen nothing from it.
Alright, I'm going to be getting a bit more rest since I woke up for Code S. Current thoughts:
I could definitely see VE being scum. His unfortunate scumhunting is a big piece of the puzzle, but his interaction with annul keeps nagging at me.
It took me a while to figure out why I was so annoyed by these posts, but I think I've figured it out. VE first emphasizes that as scum annul can become "scary" (which I assume means that he can appear to become a good contributor, though VE never actually says how annul becomes "scary"), but leaves out the fact that he might do the same exact thing as town. It doesn't feel like VE is trying to inform the town of annul's apparent meta, as much as emphasize the scummy aspects of annul's meta and attribute it entirely to scum-annul.
It would feel the same way if marv came in and said that I can be incredibly wishy-washy as scum. He's emphasized in previous games that I am the master of wishy-washiness regardless of alignment (though I've only ever been scum once, for little over a day). If he were to come into this game and try to convince everyone that I'm only wishy-washy when I'm scum, then I would be incredibly suspicious of him (In fact, I believe that's part of why he avoided talking about me at all despite my case being in the same post as the Node one).
In VE's case, it looks like he tried to do a similar thing, and then when annul called him out on it he tried to minimize the effect. Why say that scum-annul can be "scary" if town-annul can also be "scary" unless you're trying to make vigis take the shot without a proper reason? It seems like a pretty scummy interaction from VE.
I'd really like to hear thoughts from others, as this is the first thing I feel pretty confident about this game.
Finally, I'm still waiting on input from mementoss... I know that 15 pages is a lot to go through, but I'm not going to put him aside just because one of the people who was calling him out is going to flip scum. There are other lurkers, but he's promised more contributions twice now, and we've seen nothing from it.
4) Meta reads
This isnt something I can really confirm but I'll add it since it makes sence because of how many peopel have expressed them. Talismania started off by calling his meta scummy early D1. That kinda died off (probably for a good reason), but since then a lot of people have commented on how VE as town is MUCH more active, sometimes/often (?) something of a town leader and being much more contributory than how he is this game.
5) Extremely scummy (or bad if he really is town) scumhunting
Already posted about this, here:
+ Show Spoiler +
On October 03 2012 21:33 Kreb wrote:
Agreed. VE also didnt reply to any questions I asked him afterwards, nor did he reply to me calling him out for a very weak vote-switch to Node (left it to marv to do the dirty work by agressively defending my accusations while also clogging up the thread with plenty of posts?).
He has also, should he be town, been either terribly bad or terribly unlucky in his scumhunting. Lets look at a few people he has touched on:
1)
2 confirmed town flips.
2) Then the attack on annul - confirmed town flip.
3) After dropping annul, posting this
while placing his vote on Shady. 2 confirmed town.
4) Voted Node - no flip on him yet though.
5)
Going back to annul (confirmed town) after mislynch. With very little motivation (and refused to explain himself when I questioned it).
6)
Calling for a medic on a confirmed (yea, he is) scum, calling vig shot on a confirmed town.
He is either scum or just randomly managed to call out about every single confirmed player (except Risen) the wrong alignment. VE is my top scum read atm.
Agreed. VE also didnt reply to any questions I asked him afterwards, nor did he reply to me calling him out for a very weak vote-switch to Node (left it to marv to do the dirty work by agressively defending my accusations while also clogging up the thread with plenty of posts?).
He has also, should he be town, been either terribly bad or terribly unlucky in his scumhunting. Lets look at a few people he has touched on:
1)
2 confirmed town flips.
2) Then the attack on annul - confirmed town flip.
3) After dropping annul, posting this
while placing his vote on Shady. 2 confirmed town.
4) Voted Node - no flip on him yet though.
5)
Going back to annul (confirmed town) after mislynch. With very little motivation (and refused to explain himself when I questioned it).
6)
Calling for a medic on a confirmed (yea, he is) scum, calling vig shot on a confirmed town.
He is either scum or just randomly managed to call out about every single confirmed player (except Risen) the wrong alignment. VE is my top scum read atm.
6) His post-marv-revelation behavior
6a) After having had many people saying they were suspicious of him post Marvs revelation, how did he reply? He replied with some wierd extreme confidence. Look here:
+ Show Spoiler +
On October 04 2012 08:17 VisceraEyes wrote:
Please, by all means. Bring it on. I haven't done anything wrong except be wrong. That doesn't mean I'm scum. It means I'm bad at the game. At least 75% of the players in this game knew that already. :/
Please, by all means. Bring it on. I haven't done anything wrong except be wrong. That doesn't mean I'm scum. It means I'm bad at the game. At least 75% of the players in this game knew that already. :/
Here:
+ Show Spoiler +
On October 04 2012 09:32 VisceraEyes wrote:
When you line it all up like that it makes it easy to see how laughable the case against me is. Thank you kush. Seriously, I was starting to worry until you did that.
When you line it all up like that it makes it easy to see how laughable the case against me is. Thank you kush. Seriously, I was starting to worry until you did that.
And here:
+ Show Spoiler +
On October 04 2012 09:40 VisceraEyes wrote:
Me? Dude, we're lynching marv today. I can assure you I'm reading. I'll post something, don't you worry. It's not about the wise-cracking.
Just...trust me guy. You won't want to lynch me when it's time to actually pick someone to lynch.
On October 04 2012 09:37 kushm4sta wrote:
You said you were going to read through the thread again so you could figure things out. Instead of making a case against someone you just sit in the thread wise cracking?
You said you were going to read through the thread again so you could figure things out. Instead of making a case against someone you just sit in the thread wise cracking?
Me? Dude, we're lynching marv today. I can assure you I'm reading. I'll post something, don't you worry. It's not about the wise-cracking.
Just...trust me guy. You won't want to lynch me when it's time to actually pick someone to lynch.
Im not sure why scum would really wanna do that, but its 100% not towny to do. Compare to DPs case on Keirathi for example, or the french dudes on Shiao. No matter whether you like the cases or not, both Kei and Shiao were properly there to respond to the cases like a town should. VE did something completely different. Also note how he never really commented on this afterwards either, but rather seems to be banking on it being forgotten.
To me, it seems more likely he "gave up" or "lost interest" (someone already pointed that out, I think it was Coag, and VE rejected it) due to the percieved OPness/sillyness of the Paramedic role. He probably intented some kind of agressive/confident defense initally, but then just didnt care about it enough.
6b) Also note how he went trollmode with marv for a while (towny thing to do? hell no.) Its quite clear he enjoys playing with marv, which further strengthens the belief that he lost interest/gave up when Marv got caught in such a silly way.
7) Marvs motive behind his discussion with me
Ok, this is a new point, but I saved maybe the best for last. Lets look again at the context of Marvs behaviour of my case. First, lets look at what I wrote:
Later I also kinda halfassed bunched Kush into my group of scummy people. So what do we know now:
- Node is scum (I was wrong)
- Austin was twon (I was wrong)
- Marv is scum (I was right)
Now, lets for a moment assume both VE and Kush are town. And with that assumption in mind, lets look at what Marv had to say about my case:
Later turning into:
Now, specifically note how he is targetting me. Not the part of my case directed to him, but me (and my case) as a whole. Now, why would you want to do that if I only were right about Marv being scummy!!?? Why would he react like that if I was wrong about Node, Austin, VE and Kush?!!?
Theres absolutely no reason to. The aggressiveness of his defense clearly tells me I was onto something more than just him. If he was the only thing I had right in my post, theres several other much better approaches he couldve used to abuse my mis-reads.
He could have agreed on it, admitting it was wierd (which likely would have had me going straight after VE), knowing that there was a very high chance I'd go after a town. But he didnt.
He could have defended himself alone, citing town reads on VE as reason why he followed him. He didnt.
He could have not said anything at all, hoping it would turn into a austin or VE lynch. He didnt.
Instead he decided to go and agressively discredit me and as such my whole case. And I just cant see why he would do that if the only thing I predicted right was Marvs scummyness. I think I must have hit something more to motivate this response. And while it could possible be Kush, I think VE is the most likely person. Or hell, maybe even both.
Bonus point
+ Show Spoiler +
This is definitely confirmation bias if I somehow would be wrong about all this, but out of all replies to the mkfuba/hapa thing, this still stood out to me:
Really? Is that geniune happiness or irony and bitterness?
On October 06 2012 21:10 VisceraEyes wrote:
##Vote: Hapa
Twice in one game. Damn fine work guys. Sick crumb fuba.
##Vote: Hapa
Twice in one game. Damn fine work guys. Sick crumb fuba.
Really? Is that geniune happiness or irony and bitterness?
And then read his "defense":
[B]On October 09 2012 08:37 VisceraEyes wrote:
That whole case has 4 quotes from me, and you didn't comment on any of them.
However, you've quoted marv extensively and even yourself a couple of times, with plenty of comment on those posts.
As such, there's nothing for me to respond to. Have a nice day Kreb.
That whole case has 4 quotes from me, and you didn't comment on any of them.
However, you've quoted marv extensively and even yourself a couple of times, with plenty of comment on those posts.
As such, there's nothing for me to respond to. Have a nice day Kreb.
Pretty solid defense adressing all my points, eh?
