EPTif you agree
/in
Newbie Mini Mafia XXVIII
| Forum Index > TL Mafia |
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
if you agree /in | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
here we go again =D | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
On September 28 2012 08:43 DarthPunk wrote: It is not impossible to find scum on the first day. Policy lynches get you no info, you are most likely going to hit a townie, and you end up in the same position the next day minus 2 town. @Djodref your 'day plan' is unnecessary. Scum hunt, vote for your top scum read and everything else will fall into place. After LVII I'm rather liking the idea of policy lynches, in extreme cases. Killing lurkers in a lurker-infested town, for example, is something I'm inclined to agree on. If the town proves itself active, then whoever proves himself scummier will occupy the noose. Given that this is a newbie game, scums are generally more scared to post. While that is a general tendency, I don't agree with mass posters being cleared right off the bat, even if their posts seem meaningful. What I suggest in this game, is that people read. From my few games, much time is usually wasted discussing things that have not been read properly. On September 28 2012 06:56 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: Cool, we're on. Pretty bad timing though, I'm off to bed and then I've got a day at uni before I can really start posting. I hope to God when I get back we've moved past the lurker policy discussion. My message to newbies: the best way for you to clear yourself is to post a lot. Don't post just for the sake of posting though, that'll make you look like scum because posting for the sake of posting is what scum do. This is a rather useless post. Newbie towns want to scumhunt. Newbie scum want to look like they are scumhunting. That =/= posting a lot but not for the sake of posting, or whatever you meant. And please tell me, what do you mean? You say you hope to have moved past the lurker discussion, and yet you are telling people to post a lot? In my eyes you are telling people not to lurk because that will make them seem scummy. It seems to me that you are indirectly stating your views on lurkers despite openly saying you don't want to talk about them. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
On September 28 2012 09:01 kushm4sta wrote: Sorry but who appointed this asshole boss? you get people's thoughts on lurker policy, so you can catch them deviating from it later and question them about it. And why are you that scared of a FOS? | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
Saying we will lynch lurkers is one thing. Deciding whether a lurker should die later at day two is another. What I said is I'm inclined to lynch a lurker if there aren't better choices, not that we will 100% lynch a lurker. @Stutters I'd like to see more posts from you. In XXIV you showed you were capable of making decent posts as town, so I encourage you to post eve more here. @kush What's your view on darthpunk? You said you don't like his coldness, but you don't like it in a "he's scum" sort of way? | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
Have you ever heard about instigating discussion? You know, getting people to talk? I don't like how you defended SDM. You stated your views on lurkers, so that means you must agree that this type of discussion has some validity: -- snip -- Also, I would like everyone to start considering a lurker (in your head) once we hit the second 24 hours as a backup. If we get close to the lynch deadline, and there are no scummy candidates, feel free to post a good case on which lurker would be the best candidate. Yet, you don't address SDM's blatant "I don't give a crap about policy lynch discussion's" stance? Seems rather odd to me. ##FoS debears | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
On September 28 2012 14:43 debears wrote: @darth When did I say stop going after him? I said wait for him to respond. You can be convinced he's scum, but you're making a huge deal out of it early in the game. multiple red texts with the word scum. Got your point. I'm not defending him as much as I'm trying to tell you that you are going overboard right now. You don't have to rush in annointing him scum. @z-boson If you haven't realized yet, I played with SDM last game. I know where he stands with lurker policy. If you haven't noticed, darth doesn't like them either. Why? Cuz they usually go nowhere fast. Why are you so focused on lurker discussion when there are other things going on? Nice FOS btw. I make a case on you and you fail to respond to half of it. I don't care who you've played with. You make it a point to say your view on lurkers. You defend him for absolutely no reason, when his views implicitly contradict yours. If you were townie, I wouldn't think this to be a priority for you. I am not focused on lurker discussion, I am focused on the inconsistency you've presented. The issue of "Lurker policy" is not what is at hand. The issue at hand is why you are bothering to defend him (and now kush) instead of letting them defend themselves. It feels extremely forced right now, as townies are supposedly scouring the thread for blood. That's why the FOS. Regarding your "case", it seems to me like the only think you've got going is my general usefulness. And I already said it in form of a question, but now I'll answer it more bluntly so you can't dismiss it: I am instigating discussion. Read all my posts and see if that's what I'm trying to accomplish. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
On September 28 2012 20:21 Alsn wrote: Z-BosoN, you say you are instigating discussion, yet you attack debears for sharing his views on your attack against SDM? In fact, you go as far as to say that debears is in the wrong for even joining the discussion? I find his concerns quite legitimate since your attack on SDM's introduction post seem quite forced to me. Thus I can perfectly understand how he would call you out for it, yet you explain yourself with an inconsistency? Even worse, you are essentially encouraging a player to not say anything at all on a subject while that's actually very good for town! Debears defending someone - and I'd like to state for the record that I do not agree that that was what he was doing, it seems much more to me like he was attacking you than defending SDM/kush. Him taking a stance like that is contrary to what you would like us to believe actually very pro-town, since if/when one of them flips, he is on record as saying that. Your own argument however, essentially summed up with the following lines from the post quoted above: That argument right there is what I'm talking about, you essentially say that he should have kept his mouth shut instead of calling you out, yet at the same time saying town should be out for blood, which is exactly what he has been doing in my view. So in essence, you are actually encouraging people to not chime in on things they find odd. Intentional or not, that's just very anti-town behaviour. Also, you might say that debears did the same thing I am not accusing you of in the following quote:The difference here is that debears is just pointing out that he thinks Darth is rushing to a conclusion and that he shouldn't tunnel vision so hard. You, Z-BosoN used the "let him defend himself!" argument almost as a way to shut debears up. I find that very scummy, so FoS Z-BosoN. In particular, I would like you to clarify why you felt the need to bash SDM's introductory post. It does not strike me as very odd that one would like there to be more than just lurker policy to talk about after declaring that he is going to be away from the thread for quite some time(sleep + uni would probably mean something like 15+ hours). Is it so wrong to wish for there to be other things to discuss? It seems to me you are just jumping on anything you can find in order to try and look town. Give us some real analysis, give us some proper motivations behind your posting that isn't contradictory. Alsn, you are getting a very wrong impression of what I'm trying to do. Of course initially my attacks will seem forced, but it's day one, where there are few posts to go on. You are also stretching a lot of your interpretations on my posts. That argument right there is what I'm talking about, you essentially say that he should have kept his mouth shut instead of calling you out, yet at the same time saying town should be out for blood, which is exactly what he has been doing in my view. So in essence, you are actually encouraging people to not chime in on things they find odd. Intentional or not, that's just very anti-town behaviour. No, I "essentially" said that In my opinion it made more sense for him to attack SDM rather than to defend him. I also said that his defense felt very "forced" and unnecessary as a townie. You can agree and you can not agree, but saying I told him to "shut up" and am discouraging conversation is indeed a stretch. In particular, I would like you to clarify why you felt the need to bash SDM's introductory post. It does not strike me as very odd that one would like there to be more than just lurker policy to talk about after declaring that he is going to be away from the thread for quite some time(sleep + uni would probably mean something like 15+ hours). Is it so wrong to wish for there to be other things to discuss? It seems to me you are just jumping on anything you can find in order to try and look town. Give us some real analysis, give us some proper motivations behind your posting that isn't contradictory. What the fuck? I bashed it because I wanted him to respond to it, and I did not like his post. Again, you are stretching. He gave off the feeling that he loathed lurker policy discussion, and stated implicitly that people shouldn't lurk. I agree with both of these statements, but I don't like the way he said it (i.e. "fuck lurker policy, I hate it so much that I'll be gone for the next 15 hours"), and thus I questioned him for it. I didn't make a case, I didn't even make a FOS. I don't know why people are bitching so much about an attack against someone who said that he has to "go to the university". The underlined part is a bunch of crap. The "contradiction" you spotted is completely far-fetched, basing itself on the fact that I wanted debear to shut up, which as I've explained above is also a stretch. If your case against me is what you call "real analysis", then I could have the time of my life making cases, as I can just twist everything people say and use it as arguments for a case. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
On September 28 2012 15:42 DarthPunk wrote: Z-Boson. What are your thoughts on Kush? I don't know what to think of him yet. Some of your arguments on him seem too much like tunnel vision. The scumslip you pointed out could very well be a scumslip, but it's also something a townie might say, and not worth basing strong arguments off of. But the ones that I agree that I'll find weird about him are: 1) His constant implicit "I'm town! I'm town!" messages. 2) His "HA! I actually wanted you to FOS me". When he called you an asshole because you said you were gonna FoS him. This strikes me as false, as from his posts he genuinely seemed angry about your remarks on him. Especially no.2). I don't see the town motivation for baiting a FoS from you. He has to explain himself in this regard. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
Reading your trade-off with DP and your cases against me, I find two things: a) You have a tendency to heavily misinterpret posts and intentions, AND use them as arguments. b) You say you like Logic, but you don't seem to read carefully enough. Logic with information is useless. I mean this, especially in the part where you said I was calling kush out along DP, which is clearly a lie. For the love of God, if you are town, don't keep this up. I understand we are still in day one and we don't have much to go on, but still. The last thing I need is another austincc that will warp everything I say in a "scum would do this" way. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
I already answered that. You are bieng dense. @debears I missed that second post, though it further strengthens my case against you. You do not find it odd that he dismisses lurker policy talk and then, explicitly tells us his views on lurkers, thus indulging in this talk? And yet you find that post as a defense for him? Finally, instigating discussion does not mean making worthless posts with only questions and no analysis, posts calling out people for lurking way too early in the game, attacking people who said they would be afk early in d1, and FOS someone when you aren't reading the thread thoroughly. Overall, you are causing confusion by pointing you finger for bad reasons. That isn't helping us. Sorry, my scummy friend, but observe how my post drew you and Alsn out in discussion. I still eagerly await his answer, but it certainly was not worthless. You are bitching about a question I asked SDM. I didn't file a case on him, I didn't FoS him, I questioned him. I did NOT call him out for lurking. YOU fail to read, and now you are waaaaaaay too defensive about a question that didn't even concern you. Alsn presented the same defensiveness, but not on the same level as you and on a way that is much more townie-looking than yours. Also, the "irony" you've presented is without merit. I agree that the reasoning for my questioning of SDM is a bit far-fetched, but I absolutely did not use it as an argument as to why he is scummy. Don't get the facts distorted. The only FoS I have so far is on you. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
On September 29 2012 01:31 Omniscient4983 wrote: On the whole Kush-scumslip ordeal... The game began, and people were stating their opinions about lurking lynching. DP notes that talk of this policy is simply a way to engage day 1 conversation, and that extended discussion of it can be suspicious. Kush then says: It's quite the arrogant remark, to be honest. DP may have been a little stern with his wording, but he certainly didn't come off as an "asshole boss" to me. In my opinion, Kush came on too strong regardless of his role--and i certainly don't like the play. People have mentioned his "scummy meta", but I don't read it as scum, just inconsiderate. This remark catapulted into the DP-Kush arguments. When Kush refers to DP as an "active townie", DP accuses him of a huge slip. The accusation was simple reciprocation. Kush was strong with DP, and now DP is going hard on him with evidence. Fair enough. While the aforementioned scumslip could have been a townie error, I find Kush's response underwhelming, and still, a bit arrogant. To me, "The most active player; the most active person" don't seem awkward to me. The excuse is weak. And the "bro" at the end is telling of people with weak defenses that need to seem confident. Those are just my thoughts on Kush so far: Reckless, overconfident, and a little suspicious. Omniscient, the only thing your post accomplish tells us is the bolded part, which, your opinion on the side, is kind of evident at this point. The rest of it is just a narrative containing the latest events. Does your "a little suspicious" claim him lynch-worthy, in your opinion? | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
I didn't call stutters out for lurking. I talked to him because I've played with him before, and conveyed my will that he should post more than he did in XXIV, because he makes decent posts, or at least made them in XXIV, as a townie. It's more of an "acknowledgement" towards someone I've already played with. I didn't call him out for being afk. I attacked SDM because of HOW he said he would be afk, as if he was blatantly avoiding posting because of his hate on lurker policy talking. AS IF. Which is why I've questioned him. I'm also being very clear here. I'm not pushing a case against SDM. I'm pushing a case against you, again, because I didn't find your reaction towards SDM natural at all. Answering SDM shortly. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
On September 29 2012 03:02 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: First paragraph, I agree newbie town wants to scum hunt. Problem is many don’t know how to scum hunt and end up low volume posters because they’re anxious to say something stupid. Pretty much what Stutters summed up, I’m saying that it’s better they engage in discussions, ask questions and try build cases they like. They will probably end up making a few stupid cases, but it’s our responsibility to see that their motivations weren’t scummy. If they remain low volume posters, it’s much more difficult to see what their motivations are. Second paragraph, I’m saying this is a game of information and we need players to post. Scum don’t want to post, if they could decide then no one would post anything and they win almost 100% of the time. Town posts in order to be able to solve the game and in the process we force scum to post as well. I’m not saying lurkers are necessarily scummy, just look at XXVII. Lurkers aren’t necessarily scummy, but they’re 100% anti-town. That’s why, if all else fail, we lynch the most scummy lurker. I’m a bit surprised I had to explain that post to someone who seem to have some experience. I could see attacking my post as an early game town strategy to get things started, 1)but even after there were more interesting things going on it was still your main talking point. I do somewhat sympathize with your point that people should be forced to defend themselves, 2)but I don’t see why a townie would push a weak case against someone who’s not even around to defend himself. I’m still in the process of reading up on the thread. Will be able to post more of my thoughts later tonight. 1) Wrong. Like you said, finish up reading the thread. 2) I'm not pushing a case, for the last fucking time. Here are some guiding thoughts that I judge noteworthy, as you are reading off the thread: 1) Two people have defended you from my overly-aggressive post: Alsn, and debears. I find Alsn's reaction much more natural-looking than debears, please look at his filter and see if you agree. 2) wagon against kush. Kush's play definitely has some scummy-looking elements that people are currently wagoning over. Personally the main thing that gets to me is what I've answered DP's post with. See if you agree with these. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
In 1) you said that my focus was entirely on you. Now you've changed it to debears. 2) Same thing, don't play the fool. We both can tell you meant yourself in your post which I've bolded earlier. Now I know that you are willing to make up arguments to not admit how bad your posts were. That tells me you are either highly arrogant, or a defensive scum. I will expand my case on debears in a sec. I still think he is scum. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
His first post: On September 28 2012 11:05 debears wrote: Lol. Kush already going at it. Hey guys. I'm debears. This is my second game ever of mafia. I have a couple of things to add: + Show Spoiler + You also clutter the thread if you just post alot. Let me specify. Post quality as often as you can. That means reread the thread and build good cases. One liners don't do much good. Cases with multiple quotes and a few sentences of explanation per quote are good (most of the time). Also, USE YOUR COACHES TOWN. Thrawn pmed Hapa over 50 times last game and he had the best town performance. That isn't a coincidence. @Kush I don't like the way you are starting off this game kush. It's eerily similar as last game when you were mafia. You mention you're deathless streak, nk, and your scummy meta without anyone bringing it up. You should know that I most likely know you're trends better than anyone else in this game. The only difference between this game and last is that you have engaged in a flame war with Darth this game, which is unhelpful to our town. FOS Kush @everyone One more thing: Feel free to accuse and build cases on anyone you want for the first 24 hours. However, let's start tunneling for the second 24 hours. Also, I would like everyone to start considering a lurker (in your head) once we hit the second 24 hours as a backup. If we get close to the lynch deadline, and there are no scummy candidates, feel free to post a good case on which lurker would be the best candidate. First of all, his "I want town to win!!" post telling town to use their coaches. He then FoS's Kush, due to the fact that he's playing a similar game as the one he was scum. He says that DP + kush flame war is bad for the town, but doesn't attack Darthpunk, probably because he finds kush to be more scummy looking. Now, from a townie perspective, what does debear want? Information in order to lynch kush, as he pointed a FOS mostly based on a meta read. But suddenly, towards darthpunk: snip --You could also say that you are too convinced in your reasons. What I am cautious of at this point is that you stated directly before the game that you were after kush if he plays like he has in his past 3 games. I feel like that may be clouding your judgement in this situation. Our main goal is to lynch mafia. Yes, kush has said some scummy things. However, I'm not gonna go around parading this early saying "kush is scum. Kush is scum. OMFG". Also, let the man defend himself instead of trying to rally everyone active behind your cause so early. If he is scummy, the votes will come. He is defensive towards kush. That's not how townies think. While I agree that DP is a bit overboard on kush, I don't agree that he failed to give arguments as to why he thinks that is so. A townie with a FOS on someone will want to deal with the arguments first. He doesn't do that, and suddenly becomes defensive on Kush. He says, later: I'm not defending him as much as I'm trying to tell you that you are going overboard right now. You don't have to rush in annointing him scum. He is more bothered by DPs certainty than by his actual arguments. Inconsistency #1. He then comes up with two cases. One against me, and one against Djoref: @Boson + Show Spoiler + On September 28 2012 09:10 Z-BosoN wrote: After LVII I'm rather liking the idea of policy lynches, in extreme cases. Killing lurkers in a lurker-infested town, for example, is something I'm inclined to agree on. If the town proves itself active, then whoever proves himself scummier will occupy the noose. Given that this is a newbie game, scums are generally more scared to post. While that is a general tendency, I don't agree with mass posters being cleared right off the bat, even if their posts seem meaningful. What I suggest in this game, is that people read. From my few games, much time is usually wasted discussing things that have not been read properly. This is a rather useless post. Newbie towns want to scumhunt. Newbie scum want to look like they are scumhunting. That =/= posting a lot but not for the sake of posting, or whatever you meant. And please tell me, what do you mean? You say you hope to have moved past the lurker discussion, and yet you are telling people to post a lot? In my eyes you are telling people not to lurk because that will make them seem scummy. It seems to me that you are indirectly stating your views on lurkers despite openly saying you don't want to talk about them. Boson, please try not to read too hard into a person's very first posts and make something out of nothing. It is pretty clear what sonic was saying. He wants newbies to post so that they don't get grouped under the lurker corral that usually follows up later. Last game, we had lurkers galore and it really messed up the town. Also, you mention that his post is useless. Now I will examine your two other posts in terms of uselessness. A one-liner. A question that really doesn't accomplish anything. In other words, a useless post. Also, your next post doesn't address his response although he responded right after and you posted within 30 minutes of his response in a pretty light thread. On September 28 2012 09:43 Z-BosoN wrote: @DP Saying we will lynch lurkers is one thing. Deciding whether a lurker should die later at day two is another. What I said is I'm inclined to lynch a lurker if there aren't better choices, not that we will 100% lynch a lurker. @Stutters I'd like to see more posts from you. In XXIV you showed you were capable of making decent posts as town, so I encourage you to post eve more here. @kush What's your view on darthpunk? You said you don't like his coldness, but you don't like it in a "he's scum" sort of way? Yet again, nothing of substance here. You go more in depth about semantics (is that the right word I'm looking for?) about lynching lurkers and lynching lurkers at day two. Second, you call out stutters, who has already been warned by others and most likely the mods for no reason this early in the game. Finally, two sentences, two questions going on about the exact wording of kush's statements. It sounded like before the game you had stated that you have played in multiple games. Is that true? For someone who is telling other people to not post useless posts, you aren't doing a good job of it yourself. Looks more like you are trying to just be active while off the radar. In other words, you are a semi-active lurker who has bad post quality. Sounds like characteristics of a certain alignment. @Djoref + Show Spoiler + On September 28 2012 08:51 Djodref wrote: @Darthpunk Nevermind you look just more confident to get a scum on D1 than me. Regarding my plan, I think we need general directions to follow because of the majority lynch. It is a way to gather everybody around 2-3 suspicious players and secure a lynch. I'm assuming everyone agree on a no-lynch to be stupid. Djoref, I don't like that statement at all. That's the second post you bring up about the likelihood of lynching a townie d1. As town, you should never have that mentality. I would probably less likely to bring this up if you were a total nooby. However, you said you "know Kush's meta" which means you have some decent understanding of the game for a noob. By saying this, it seems that you are setting yourself an excuse to be indecisive later in the day when the lynch voting comes around. Alone, it isn't much. However, your other posts don't help. On September 28 2012 08:44 Djodref wrote: @Darthpunk Considering that we are likely to lynch a town on D1, don't you think it's a lesser wrong to get rid of someone inactive ? Inactivity means no scumhunt and room to hide for the mafia... After playing mafia last game, I feel like heavy lurking is a bad play for mafia. It puts too much pressure on you are as a scum. Instead, posting lightly without much substance is more mafia indicative. Yet again, I feel you are just looking like you are contributing without saying much. Especially when you already covered your thoughts in a previous post. On September 28 2012 08:36 Djodref wrote: Hello everybody ! About me This is my first game ever on forum but I've been playing on SC2mafia and also irl. But I've been lurking on the TL Mafia forum for a while (so I know your meta kush^^) and I decided to join this newbie game. I'm also a French guy and I live in Korea so my english is not on top and it's going to ne difficult for me to be around at deadline (5.00 am KST). Lurker policy From the games I've seen, unless you have a golden scumslip on d1, it's very difficult to lynch a scum the very first day. So I have no problem ending up voting for the most suspicious lurker at the end of the day. I define most suspicious lurker as a semi-lurker just trying to blend in. Day Plan I don't think to be able to be around for the first deadline so I would like to propose a day plan to secure a lynch as we are using a majority vote. First 24 hours to find lynch candidates while scumhunting and next 20 hours to decide who is the scummiest. Last 4 hours to consolidate the vote or switch to a lurker. Please discuss  Notice how you are just repeating points? It isn't helpful to us. Next post On September 28 2012 11:09 Djodref wrote: @Kush Was it also a joke ? How can you be so sure you are not going to be NKed ? A two sentence, two question post. I don't like these. They are worthless. Also, this question came quite a bit later after darthpunk already was asking questions about joking. You seem to be sheeping onto darth's case against kush. On September 28 2012 11:53 Djodref wrote: I would also like to hear you explanations about this specific part. I don't have a read on Darth on the moment considering he has only been hard tunneling you. As you said yourself you have a scummy meta so you are an easy target for early game to put pressure on. So what makes him so much town ? Yet again, this post is just repeating what darth is saying. Another question. I don't like this. Your early posts are indicative of a semi-active scum. Sheeping, question posts, and rehashing things already said multiple times. Notice the similarity between the two. He attacks us for asking questions (later on denies that they provide any discussion whatsoever), and falls into the same "semi-active lurker" category he's sniffing about. I will ignore the quality of his arguments, which I personally think are horrible, and will look more towards their similarity. From his case against me: A one-liner. A question that really doesn't accomplish anything. In other words, a useless post. Also, your next post doesn't address his response although he responded right after and you posted within 30 minutes of his response in a pretty light thread. For someone who is telling other people to not post useless posts, you aren't doing a good job of it yourself. Looks more like you are trying to just be active while off the radar. In other words, you are a semi-active lurker who has bad post quality. Sounds like characteristics of a certain alignment. From his case against Djoref: A two sentence, two question post. I don't like these. They are worthless. Also, this question came quite a bit later after darthpunk already was asking questions about joking. You seem to be sheeping onto darth's case against kush. Your early posts are indicative of a semi-active scum. Sheeping, question posts, and rehashing things already said multiple times. See the similarity, especially the bolded part? It seems that he has this "semi-active scum" cake recipe that he is using to sniff out scum. He also calls us out on our posting quality, in my case saying it is bad. I won't address his next post towards me because I've already done so, and because it doesn't increase his scumminess , as "bad cases =/= scum" (although it pisses me off). Anyways, now to the main stuff. He has a case against me and Djoref, for pretty much the same reasoning. Yet, check out what his next post on Djoref is: On September 29 2012 01:55 debears wrote: @Djoref Please pm marv for help. The coaches are great Wtf??? What ?? Where is his case against Djoref?? He goes from a scummy-looking sheep with one liners to a "townie who should pm marv for help"? Could he have forgotten that Djoref was one of his main suspicions? Inconsistency #2 Note that I no longer think that his defense of SDM is scummy. I've gone over that a few times and I admit that it can also come from a townie perspective. To summarize, here are the main inconsistencies in his play that scream to me SCUM: 1) He had a FOS on kush, then hurried on to defend him, in the manner I've shown above. I cannot fathom for the life of me having a FOS on someone and suddenly feel like I have to address an exaggeration on that person before I actually address the case. 2) He completely absolves Djoref for absolutely no reason. Townies do not throw around suspicions only to insta-drop them. 3) The other supporting arguments I've shown above. debears is SCUM! ##vote debears | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
| ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
On September 29 2012 04:29 corrosion wrote: I'm just going to address the "fight" between Darth and Kush. I'm going to focus on Darth for now. Looking more closely into Kush's contribution is something I think should be done well ahead of lynch time. I'm actually going to start by telling about some thoughts I had after reading my role PM. I was trying to figure out what players town should be focusing on. I had obsed NMMXXVII, 1)and came to the conclusion that it might be reasonable to go after any player except Kush. I figured that Kush was going to make a lot of posts anyway, so I was thinking that we could get a good analysis of him without any early pressure. One of the first things Darth did was to antagonize Kush: + Show Spoiler + On September 28 2012 08:34 DarthPunk wrote: No it's not. It is simply a mechanism to get the discussion going and allows scum to seem to participate and to potentially mislynch an inactive townie. Any more talk of policy will get you FoS'd. I'm thinking that this could easily be an attempt to start a fight that would result in derailing the thread. Kush responded the way I expected him to, and these two posters exchanged arguments back and forth. 2)In the middle of this, Darth made a remark against lurkers, but quickly changed his focus back on Kush. On September 28 2012 10:36 DarthPunk wrote: So is everyone just going to drop their welcome posts and then afk? I don't see why he should make this comment at this time, since it wasn't going to get looked at while there was a fight going on. 3)Shortly afterwards, Kush makes his supposed scum slip. Darth jumps on it, and shortly afterwards he posts about his previous mafia games. I've watched the game where he played cop, and seen that he and Shady argued a lot on D1. So I was thinking that this seems to be Darth's town meta. But I also asked myself why he did post about his previous games at this point in time. Maybe this was all intentional. Suppose he suddenly remembered that game. He might not have wanted people to look at those games earlier, but now he realized that if he posted them he would be able to establish a town read on himself. I'm not sure if this is a strong case against Darth at the moment. I would like some input from the more experienced players here. If Kush hadn't made that slip, I think the derailing argument would have looked strong. Now it doesn't look so strong, because we've actually gotten new information. I'm not saying that I'm sure the scum slip is an actual slip, but if it is and it results in a succesful lynch, I think town got very lucky. Scum usually wouldn't slip in such an obvious manner. 4)His cases against Debears and Alsn are something that might reveal useful information, but I've not studied them closely yet. I still think that Kush seems more suspicious when everything is taken into consideration but with all the focus that has been on him, I'm sure someone else can post a decent case on him before we need to consider our first lynch. 1) Huh?? So you are saying that we shouldn't lynch him because if he's actually scum, we will easily find out later? This is the lamest reason to not lynch someone. If someone looks scummier than the rest, lynch them, don't save them for later. If this was not what you meant, please explain. 2) That's meaningless. His post came right after someone said HI!!!! and left, for the second or third time in the thread. This is more of a nudge towards them, and I'm sure it was read amongst the fighting. 3) You are just rambling here, I think. I take the DP/kush exchange as being genuine, unless they are both scum and agreed to flaming each other. I don't think thta's likely, due to kush's fiery meta. 4) I don't get the reasoning behind this post. You are trying to make a case on DP, and concluded that you don't feel like it and actually think that kush is a better lynch? Also, stutters has made a case on him. Why not reference that? Who are you more inclined to vote on and why? I can't tell by the wishy-washy tone of your post. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
On September 29 2012 05:46 kushm4sta wrote: Hi z bozon. Inconsistencies do not make someone scum. Also it's quite funny how you are so certain this early in the game. To summarize this awesome post: your case is not strong. you are overconfident in your scumread. But oh they can. Scum can't genuinely scumhunt, and will usually make mistakes in doing so. This early in the game, debears has managed to quickly change his mind about pursuing scum not once, but twice. Him just forgetting all about Djoref and basically assuming him to be town was just ??SDFG ?A?SDF?A?SDF?. His inconsistencies to me look more scummy then townie, especially when looking at how repetitive his arguments are. Who do you think is a better lynch then, kush? Grace us with a case. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
On September 29 2012 05:59 kushm4sta wrote: My.top scumread after darthpenguin: haven't given it.much thought. maybe djosef because he is playing the noobs.card pretty hard. and djo guy,.if you want people.to say your name right don't make it random letters please Then give it more thought. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
| ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
If you are town that is. If you are scum, go ahead and keep moaning, I'll gladly choose you over debears. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
On September 29 2012 06:39 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: Pointing out another scum slip at this point seems kind of redundant, but anyway, what the fuck? We're only like 24h into the game and you've got only 2 votes. Why would you give up at this point? You're being so anti-town it'll be hard for anyone not to vote on you, but if you shape up there's still a lot of time. Anyway, really need to get some sleep now. I'm out. How is that a scumslip? Also, you chose to stick with "I think kush has a better case" while not even mentioning the shitbomb I've thrown against debears. Care to shed a comparative light and tell us why you think a meta based lynch is better than a inconsistent scumhunting-based one? | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
it seems like I am.beyond helping myself. why would I want to help a town that is going to lynch me Uh... assuming you are town, you want to help town because you want town to win? Also, making cases show you have town interest, and puts you above other people who are also being useless. Do this. Take the time to read the thread. Pretend you have nothing against you. Ignore all cases against you. Make a case against someone else, with arguments and a thought-out post. I hope your next post is a useful one. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
What is the proper context then? Can you answer my questions? You can start by addressing the issues I've presented | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
##Unvote ##Vote kushm4sta | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
READ An interesting snippet from the op: Play to win. This means you play your best to help your team win while you are alive and in the game. However, this does not mean that you should try to win by being a jerk to the other players so they all want to quit playing. So, read my exchange with him. I try a billion times to help him, and what does he do? Choose to mock me case and be insulting. That's not playing to win if he's town. His sudden change of attitude probably came from a mod-warning, due to what I've quoted, and I'll assume this to be true. Now I have two train of thoughts that I'm killing myself over: 1) Lynch him. He's bad to have in the endgame and is a detriment to the town, no matter his alignment. His change of attitude might have come from his scummy friends, because I sure as hell couldn't sway him. 2) Assume he is a townie. Why can we do that? Because I am almost certain that his change of attitude came from a mod-warning. If he was mafia he wouldn't have gotten a mod-warning, because his play could have very well been some schematics or whatever. However, there is no town-motivation for his play whatsoever, and the way he mocked me is a completely infant behavior that does not go with a "play-to-win" scenario. However... There is one instance where he could have gotten a mod-warning as mafia. Observe this post: On September 29 2012 07:44 kushm4sta wrote: debears I saved you bro...scumteam 4 lyfe If debears is indeed mafia, he would have gotten a mod-warning for basically giving in his teammate. This makes a lot of sense, if we can assume he got a mod-warning. And SO I propose.... We lynch him. If I am correct in my assessment and he flips scum, then debears is most likely also scum and kush managed to ruin the game. If he flips town, then we are down someone who will be a detriment to the town, so I'm confident he is a good lynch for us right now. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
On September 29 2012 10:36 debears wrote: @kush The ambiguous statement i made qbout you in the start of my vote post was addressed to your feeling of hoplessness despite your early enthusiasm @k boson You're association case is assuming way too much. Use ockhams razor. We can't assume modwarnings. That is ridiculous. Especially when using that reason to cherrypick his posts to create an association case That only adds to the fact that I already have a strong scumread of you. Whatever his alignment, I'm pushing for you next. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
I think it would be more productive if you would read my case on debears and see if you agree with it. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
But you are scum and thus will use this as an excuse to die the quiet and lonely death, unloved, and derelict. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
Go away and die quietly. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
I saw your town meta in XXVI. This is not it. You are capable of pro town play. This is not it. Are you not entertained?!?!! | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
It's a theory I have in case he pops scum. Don't treat it as an argument. Treat my case as an argument. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
| ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
On September 30 2012 00:02 debears wrote: Alright guys, sobered up and reading to go into ass kicking mode. At this point, kush is going to be lynched. However, some of you faultily believe this “association case” linking me and kush by Boson and his case against me. I originally intended this to be a pure defense case, but after typing it out, Z-Boson comes across scummy to me. Anyways here we go. Yea, I was already a suspect on your list, so at least you realized that people were expecting a case. Note the use of red in this whole thing is to clarify what I’m refuting. Inconsistency 1 1) My “want to win”, use the coaches pm has mainly townie motivation. Why wouldn't I tell everyone to PM their coaches after last game? Hapapauli specifically mentioned how Thrawn was the only one actually getting help from him. There can be some mafia WIFOM argument, but that is assuming more than the fact I want to win and the obvious townie motivation for it. That's right, there can be some Mafia WIFOM. I chose to add all the things that can come from mafia WIFOM and would go along with mafia rationale, but I didn't use them as main arguments. 2) Next, you say that I don’t attack DarthPunk. While I never attacked DarthPunk (he had good reasoning for suspecting kush), I did tell him to cool his jets and stop trying to convince others to his argument so early in the game, especially since kush was afk at the moment darth attacked kush. Now, because of his early hardcore tunnel, we are in a situation where the lynch is one sided. That doesn’t do really any good for us unless he is mafia. If he turns town, we gave the mafia a veil to hide under. Another townie side Z-Boson failed to address. Come on man. that's not even a supporting argument. I just said you didn't attack DP to make it crystal clear that your FOS on kush was entirely meta-based, because if the flame wars was any suspicious, then you would FOS DP as well. 3) From a townie perspective, I wanted more information on kush, and I wanted to spread out some focus on other people early on to avoid a one sided lynch for the reasons in 2), hence the posts directed at Djo and Z-Boson early on. Yea, but you didn't say anything, your FoS on kush disappeared. It doens't look to me like a townie move. It looks more like a "empty FOS just to distance yourself from him" then a "I honestly think kush looks suspicious". 4) Then, your points about me being defensive at kush were not defenses of kush’s actions. They were attempts to tell darth to chill out and subdue some of his power trip, which I said in both quotes that you post in that section. That's fine, I agree he was going overboard. I don't understand, however, your motivation for it. Like I said, you rushed in to critique DP BEFORE you dealt with his arguments against kush. I see you mention this below, so let's see.... 5) When you say a townie with a FOS will want to deal with arguments first, that is true. However, kush was afk at the moment and darth was hammering him without kush able to defend himself at a very early point in time in the game. As stated above, look at the situation we are in now if kush flips town. What? You wouldn't have been attacking kush. You would have been discussing DP's arguments. Why the fuck do you feel the need to help him defend himself? You feeling sorry or something? About someone you theoretically had a suspicion on? You say you weren't defending him, but in the way you've written point no.5), it's almost explicit that you were going for DP because he was hammering a defenseless kush. No, dude, no. Inconsistency 2 1) If you looked at my posts after my “PM marv for help” post, I believe corrosion instantly assumed that I confirmed him town. That is not true at all. Notice A) Djo is a noob and B) I said COACHES. The word townie was never said in the sentence. You guys are putting words in my mouth. Also, note how in one of Djo’s prior posts, he says he was going to go look at guides. I don’t understand why you guys are so eager to jump on someone trying to help a newbie. Yet again, townie motivation: If Djo is town, it will greatly help us if he gets help. Even if he isn't, it will raise the quality of this NEWBIE game and help us all improve if he gets help. EXCEPT THAT YOU HAD A FOS ON HIM!!!! Do you know what it means to be suspicious of someone? You don't follow up a case you've made against someone with: "look for coaches", they help town a lot!! You didn't say explicitly that you thought him town, but you absolutely ignore your previous post on him only to never mention it again. This reeks of an empty case, you know, the ones that mafia are forced to make. Ending 1) I want to quote something from Bosons post. “Note that I no longer think that his defense of SDM is scummy. I've gone over that a few times and I admit that it can also come from a townie perspective.” By his logic, that does not factor into my case. Also, how do the other two reasons in your post not have a townie perspective/motivation? They don't. Town want to find scum, and when townies send out FoS's, they really mean it. They don't insta-drop them like you did. It's not scum-motivation, it's scum-slip. 2) The list of 1,2,3 Boson made at the bottom. If I read the post correctly, the only other argument is that my cases against Djo and Z-Bo early one were a "scum recipe". To that, I say duh. Semi-active lurker is a place where mafia can hide to look like they are contributing without actually doing so. I noticed this last game with JacobStrangeLove. I also read some guides that state that. Why wouldn't I call you out early when there's not much to go on? My case isn't based on you calling me out. I just found it mention-worthy to say that your cases are really really similar (i.e fabricated). Even the wording at the end is the same. It doesn't strike me as legit cases. Now for z-bos next post right after the post in which he attacked me (5 min after to be exact): + Show Spoiler + On September 29 2012 05:34 Z-BosoN wrote: I'm not against a kush lynch atm, but from what I gather kush's case is mostly meta-based with a side dish of not-scumhunting and also general scummy-looking posts. I think my evidence against debear is much more damning. Please read carefully his posts and my case and see if you don't agree. So he bashs me for “defending kush” (according to himself) and then infers that the evidence against kush isn’t the greatest. That’s not very consistent. On September 29 2012 05:55 Z-BosoN wrote: But oh they can. Scum can't genuinely scumhunt, and will usually make mistakes in doing so. This early in the game, debears has managed to quickly change his mind about pursuing scum not once, but twice. Him just forgetting all about Djoref and basically assuming him to be town was just ??SDFG ?A?SDF?A?SDF?. His inconsistencies to me look more scummy then townie, especially when looking at how repetitive his arguments are. Who do you think is a better lynch then, kush? Grace us with a case. I would like to know how I changed my mind twice on scumhunting. Just because someone looks scummy, we don’t need to bash their heads in with the same evidence over and over and over again. In kush’s case, Darth had gone overboard and was sufficiently bashing in kush’s head by himself. What’s the point in me picking up a club and going after him when he was afk? What's the point in defending him if you find him scummy? In Djo’s case, I called him out for the quality of his posting. He is a newbie. I decided it was best to not attack him and let him actually get into the game. As I said, I don’t read too much into early posts. Yep. From suspicious semi-lurker one-line sheep to "townie who should ask coach for help" without any clarifications, without anything. k. Also, the reason why I “changed my mind” is that Z-boson was becoming a scum read to me. His OMGUS FOS set off alarms in my head. His posts since then are picking out only the mafia motivations or stating the townie motivations and instantly discarding them. It is hard to split my focus on 3 people at a time, so I’d rather worry about Z-Bo and Kush than chase a newbie around. Are you seriously that dense and think that my fos on you was OMGUS, after all I've written? What the fuck do you mean "only mafia motivations"? You are doing things that I find much more likely coming from a mafia then from a townie, period. This is the most ridiculous paragraph you've yet written. Alright on to another post + Show Spoiler + On September 29 2012 06:41 Z-BosoN wrote: kush this "act" you are playing is not helping you, and is not helping town. Man the fuck up and make cases against people, try to defend yourself. I'd much rather lynch debears because I find the arguments against him to be much more substantial than the ones against you, which are mostly meta-based. I disagree with a meta-based lynch when I've provided real arguments against someone else (which, incidentally you shat on. It seems like you actually want to get lynched) If you are town that is. If you are scum, go ahead and keep moaning, I'll gladly choose you over debears. Yet again, he doesn’t like the case against kush, yet one of the main parts of his scumread on me was that I defended kush. + Show Spoiler + On September 29 2012 10:28 Z-BosoN wrote: READ An interesting snippet from the op: So, read my exchange with him. I try a billion times to help him, and what does he do? Choose to mock me case and be insulting. That's not playing to win if he's town. His sudden change of attitude probably came from a mod-warning, due to what I've quoted, and I'll assume this to be true. Now I have two train of thoughts that I'm killing myself over: 1) Lynch him. He's bad to have in the endgame and is a detriment to the town, no matter his alignment. His change of attitude might have come from his scummy friends, because I sure as hell couldn't sway him. 2) Assume he is a townie. Why can we do that? Because I am almost certain that his change of attitude came from a mod-warning. If he was mafia he wouldn't have gotten a mod-warning, because his play could have very well been some schematics or whatever. However, there is no town-motivation for his play whatsoever, and the way he mocked me is a completely infant behavior that does not go with a "play-to-win" scenario. However... There is one instance where he could have gotten a mod-warning as mafia. Observe this post: If debears is indeed mafia, he would have gotten a mod-warning for basically giving in his teammate. This makes a lot of sense, if we can assume he got a mod-warning. And SO I propose.... We lynch him. If I am correct in my assessment and he flips scum, then debears is most likely also scum and kush managed to ruin the game. If he flips town, then we are down someone who will be a detriment to the town, so I'm confident he is a good lynch for us right now. This post…..Not only is it an association case, it’s an association case BASED ON MOD WARNINGS and assuming a mod warning off one random post of kush’s, especially when that post references the scum team that I was on with kush in the last game… Boson is going out of his way to pin me as scum, especially before kush even flips….I don’t get this. Next post, + Show Spoiler + On September 29 2012 11:03 Z-BosoN wrote: That only adds to the fact that I already have a strong scumread of you. Whatever his alignment, I'm pushing for you next. So he says two things here. 1) That the post he quoted “added” to his scumread. Then he makes NO MENTION of why it does. Read as: in addition to my scumread, there is this. Not "this adds to my scumread". 2) He specifically states that he is going for me no matter the outcome. Why has he already done this without seeing the flip? Seems like he knows kush’s alignment and doesn’t have to consider what is going on here today… I don't know kushs alignment. I would rather lynch you because I find my arguments against you much more substantial. Hard to push a lynch on you though, when he refuses to act townie and basically begs himself to be lynched. I didn't think him, and still don't, more scummy than you, but he has put himself in a position where it's impossible for me to push a lynch on you. Next post I don’t understand why Boson is lobbying his case against me still. It is a weak case based on mafia assumptions only. I hate this kind of play. If your case is good, people will believe it and vote for it. He is trying so hard to have his notions confirmed. You think it's a weak case. I don't. And that's exactly what I'm trying to do, get people to agree with it. Not everyone have the same opinions on what constitutes a "good" and a "bad" case. And what exactly do you hate about this kind of play? Making a case and try to push it? Of course you hate it. You are scum. Final part of this (thank god) Everyone who’s experience knows association cases are dumb without a flip unless it’s late game. You are making an early game association case and you make a huge post about it. How is that not an argument? Now you have everyone saying “debears is likely scum”. It's a theory that makes a lot of sense. I was asked not to discuss hypothetical mod actions in-thread, and so I can't feasibly use this as an argument. If kush flips red, you will have the entirety of that post against you, in addition to my case on you. If he flips green, you'll have just my case, which is strong by itself, imo. A case in which you've done a very poor job defending yourself against it. FOS Z-Boson If kush did not implode this game, I would be voting for Z-Boson right now. So you agree that kush must die now, because he imploded, and would rather vote me. That's exactly the same thing that happened to me. Except that I tried to push a vote on you before he imploded, and you did not on me. Because you were scared that it would seem like you know his alignment, as you've stated in this very post. Because you are scum. I urge everyone to read this exchange. My lines are in red. He still feels the need to use the same elements he did initially: My case is OMGUS, it's weak, it's bad, etc. This post comes off to me as cornered scum trying to squirm his way out, but that could be just me tunneling him hard. Everyone please take the time to read and see if you agree with me. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
On September 29 2012 15:21 debears wrote: @djo What parts of his case specifically do you believe? His main case against me is contradiction. Look at my case against thrawn in the last game. What was the main point of that argument? Inconsistency. Its an easy point for scum to point out. There are two possibilities for kushvin my eyes 1) a mafiab tryingbto pity his way out off a lynch 2) a townie acting likeva total noob with accusations against him. Which has less assumptions? Number 1. My problen with the scum by associstion is the case that i was defendung kush earky on. That us false i was trying ti communicate ti darth that his reasoning wad based off such a strong s assumption early in the game. In fact, I'd say that z-bosons case against me is the same. He looks at the mafia side only, which to me is a indicator of mafia. I can't make a case dur to drinking and being on my phone. My read in you is that you are sheeping onto cases. I don't like it because i did the same. Why do you think i would refer you to a coach? What are the townie and mafia motivations behind it. @z-boson The same question stated the line above refers to you I'm suddenly mafia because I look at the mafia side only? I answered this in my reply, but dude, I've outlined the main arguments very carefully. Again, it's not that you kicked a cat and thus I think you are mafia because only mafia would have reason to kick the cat, which is what you are boiling down my whole case against you to. It's that kicking a cat is not something town would do. Dropping two cases instantly is what people who have made "FOSes" generally do. Your misty stance on kush doesn't seem towny at all. Things are making you seem scummy as opposed to townie. It's not my own crazy interpretation, I've already said why i think they make you scummy. The second part, you are being blatantly ignorant. My case does not depend on whether you referred him to a coach. It's the fact that you insta-dropped your main accusations out of fucking nowhere. That does not have scum motivation. I just find it more likely that that is a mistake scum are much more inclined to make than town, due to the fact that they can't genuinely scumhunt. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
I'm glad that he actually implored to get lynched with his "Why would I help a town that wants him dead?" and his insult posts. I've actually read some of his filter this past hour, from XXVII, and I certainly hope he becomes more humble after this. SDM, it is true what you say. I did not mention anything but his defense of you, and at the moment I really did think that it seemed scummy. I wanted to make a proper case on him, so I did a lot of reading on debears filters and realized there was more to it I hadn't yet seen. I made this clear in my case against him. Anyways, my view on the game. DP is pretty much town. I highly, highly doubt that it was an elaborate scheme to insta-bus a mafia member this early in the game. It's also consistent with my meta-read on him, he's playing much more like XXIV than LVII. I have a town read on SDM. His post accusing kush which had some validity and a lot of meta analysis would be really unnecessary from a scum point of view. His latest post concerning me was quite down-to-earth and showed he is being attentive to the thread. My top scum read is - you guys guessed it - debears, for all the reasons stated earlier. @debears I'm done with you for now, and I think you would agree that right now it's best to shift the town focus, yes? Read below. On September 30 2012 04:58 debears wrote: @zbo I'm gonna try to do this from my phone. When did i have a FOS against djo? You put this under the section against djo. I misspoke. Not a FOS, but a case against him. Another thing i want to address is your assumption that early d1 posts and cases carry a lot of weight. They don't.my cases against you and djo were based on the suspiciousness of your posts. They weren't full on you're scum in depth cases. Besides, people change their minds a bit on d1. It's how they change their minds that concern me. There is nothing between your two posts in the thread that can even begin to ward off suspicion The next thing i want to address is your assumption on the weight and meaning of a fos. To me, a fos is a heads up that Im suspicious of you qnd ill be watching. It doesnt necessarily mean I'm gonna make a huge case on you. Finally, i want to address your assumptions of what townies do d1. As a townie, i have no idea who is what. Its confusing as hell. Why wouldnt i change my mind and explore more than kush d1. There are more than 1 scum. You definitely can explore more than one person. But I'm tired of repeating myself of why I find you scummy, I believe I've made that clear How am i supposed to know whether darth himself is scum trying to push an easy target (i will expand more on this tonight when i am at my computer) or whether he is a townie truly overconfident in his belief about kush being scum. A good case doesnt necessarily mean someone is town. Look at my case against thrawn last game. Finally, why does everyone seem so damn confident in their reads? Especially on day 1? Right I have you pegged as scum. You've done a piss poor job at defending yourself (in my opinion) and let us leave it at that. You have a case on me. You think I'm scum. Now that kush is confirmed scum, there is, in your view, one other scum besides me. I don't think that our exchange will go anywhere, this is getting highly redudant. So I propose, for the night, a slight change in how town is evolving. I've taken a look at Alsn's lurker lists filters and found some interesting things. Out of those four, who do you think would be the third scum, assuming it's one of them? | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
| ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
On September 29 2012 13:24 DarthPunk wrote: Nice pick up. I already posted about this, But I assume you just picked it up as you were going through the thread. I was surprised no one else seemed to catch on to this. I would like some further elaboration on your kush vote as you have black flipped somewhat from your earlier position. What made you change your mind? + Show Spoiler + Ok,ok, I can't resist a guessing game. My guts tell me omniscient | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
He was one that I haven't read the filters properly yet. Gotta go with stutters then  Anyways, please answer the bit on corrosion. It seemed earlier on that you thought he was coming off as scummy. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
I haven't gone over his filter carefully enough yet. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss corrosion, but atm I have a neutral read of him. Anyways, gonna go through debears case first. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
I think you are too obvious a choice to get saved by a medic as well, mafia would be taking a huge risk | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
On September 30 2012 12:17 DarthPunk wrote: Wow. How could you have a town read on Djo and not a town read on Remedy? I am blown away. He's cute! He wants us to get his name right. But that aside, he has some townie posts, that add information. Examples: His own case against corrosion, which you actually agreed with: + Show Spoiler + On September 29 2012 13:17 Djodref wrote: Hey, guys ! I would like to bring up something that struck me in the post of corrosion about Darth. I didn't like this post in general because it didn't match my interpretations of the early events between Kush and Darth but I understand that our views can differ. But looking back at corrosion filter, he's trying to find scummy motivation for Darth to give his links to his previous game. Check the bolded part in the spoiler. + Show Spoiler + On September 29 2012 04:29 corrosion wrote: I'm just going to address the "fight" between Darth and Kush. I'm going to focus on Darth for now. Looking more closely into Kush's contribution is something I think should be done well ahead of lynch time. I'm actually going to start by telling about some thoughts I had after reading my role PM. I was trying to figure out what players town should be focusing on. I had obsed NMMXXVII, and came to the conclusion that it might be reasonable to go after any player except Kush. I figured that Kush was going to make a lot of posts anyway, so I was thinking that we could get a good analysis of him without any early pressure. One of the first things Darth did was to antagonize Kush: + Show Spoiler + On September 28 2012 08:34 DarthPunk wrote: No it's not. It is simply a mechanism to get the discussion going and allows scum to seem to participate and to potentially mislynch an inactive townie. Any more talk of policy will get you FoS'd. I'm thinking that this could easily be an attempt to start a fight that would result in derailing the thread. Kush responded the way I expected him to, and these two posters exchanged arguments back and forth. In the middle of this, Darth made a remark against lurkers, but quickly changed his focus back on Kush. I don't see why he should make this comment at this time, since it wasn't going to get looked at while there was a fight going on. Shortly afterwards, Kush makes his supposed scum slip. Darth jumps on it, and shortly afterwards he posts about his previous mafia games. I've watched the game where he played cop, and seen that he and Shady argued a lot on D1. So I was thinking that this seems to be Darth's town meta. But I also asked myself why he did post about his previous games at this point in time. Maybe this was all intentional. Suppose he suddenly remembered that game. He might not have wanted people to look at those games earlier, but now he realized that if he posted them he would be able to establish a town read on himself. I'm not sure if this is a strong case against Darth at the moment. I would like some input from the more experienced players here. If Kush hadn't made that slip, I think the derailing argument would have looked strong. Now it doesn't look so strong, because we've actually gotten new information. I'm not saying that I'm sure the scum slip is an actual slip, but if it is and it results in a succesful lynch, I think town got very lucky. Scum usually wouldn't slip in such an obvious manner. His cases against Debears and Alsn are something that might reveal useful information, but I've not studied them closely yet. I still think that Kush seems more suspicious when everything is taken into consideration but with all the focus that has been on him, I'm sure someone else can post a decent case on him before we need to consider our first lynch. But Darth was just answering a request from debears ! + Show Spoiler + On September 28 2012 11:39 debears wrote: As I said, I want a quick look at you first. Second, there isn't much more to add to what you said about it. It does give off the impression of extra information. I think corrosion was trying to cast scummy shadow on Darth to shift the focus on Kush. I did so by omitting/deforming some parts of the thread history. Also, he fits my definition of a semi-lurker trying to blend in. So, corrosion, until I got your explanations about this point, I got my eyes on you. ##FoS: corrosion It doesn't feel like a "he's going for the easy case". RSC also has a case against corrosion, and one that comes after (I think, have to double check) after Djodref's one. Nevertheless, I don't think strictly "going for the easy target" is alignment-indicative. But I have to disagree with you here. You are assuming corrosion is a suspicious looking noob townie, and thus whoever jumps on him has a good chance of being mafia. Corrosion's play strikes me as very odd. I'll go over carefully and see if that's what I genuinely feel after reading his filter. I find omniscient to be much more scummy looking than djoref at the very least. He doesn't add any new information, sheeped the cases, and his only pseudo-case is a very weak one against RSC. I also remember him saying that he doesn't view corrosion as scum at all, without dealing with the arguments against him. I still have to read a bit more to reach better conclusions. Stutters is also someone who I can't recall making any real cases or adding any information. I might be wrong, but like the rest, I still have to read a little bit. debears, I've read your cases. Imo, some of your arguments are decent, some of them are not. But just outlining every person and telling us why they are scummy isn't very helpful. Include your opinion in your analysis. Who would you say is, in fact, scum? | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
Nothing that I said proves him town, but so far he has been acting very townie in my eyes. Can you tell us why you think he is scum? | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
However, his interaction with kush seems a bit genuine? Skimming through his filter it kind of did. + Show Spoiler + A bit of dumb meta I'm actually ashamed to mention kush kept saying my case on debears was stupid and bad. He also said that racquetball is stupid, which stutters was gonna go do. He insulted me, who is not mafia, and went on to needlessly insult stutters I don't know. Anyways, @stutters, who would you want to lynch day2? | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
| ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
I should go to sleep. At least you are answering pretty well. Also guys, I have an international flight I'm taking tomorrow morning, and will not be able to make it for the night post. In case I die, read my exchange with debears, and later on in the game, debears filter in whatever perspective you guys find him in, if you do decide to lynch him. Later! | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
Anyways, I will agree with one thing DP said, alsn is scummy as shit. Look at his stance on kush throughout the thread. Brief timeline here: ACT I - Kush. If you are scummy like last game, I will lynch you no matter what. + Show Spoiler + On September 28 2012 16:54 Alsn wrote: Hey everyone, just woke up and was about to check when the game was supposed to start. Imagine my surprise when it's already started! Although looking closely the game started as I went to sleep, so I wouldn't have been able to participate until now either way. So in any case, I'm Alsn, I like logic. My previous mafia games so far amount to a single one, a game where I was NKd N1 as Vanilla Townie. My filter for that game can be found here. Other than that I have only ever played SC2 Mafia in any significant amounts(a game while using the same core rules, plays extremely different due to the time constraints and limits on discussion). If you are interested, I was also active in the /obs QT discussion of NMMXXVII which can be found here. So, with that out of the way, I read the first few posts and saw that this game continues the trend of lurker policy lynching. I agree that there needs to be pressure on scum to actually post, since without scum posts to analyse all the scumhunting in the world will almost certainly only turn up townies(due to lurkers generally being null reads). That said, I followed Tl Mafia LVII wherein there was a lot of discussion about lynching "trolly meta" players and I would like to take that one step further. Kush, while I realize that you have a posting style which by its nature is very confrontational and inflammatory, I feel that unless you actually provide some concrete analysis without using almost purely OMGUS argumentation that it is in town's best interest to just straight up lynch you right away. Simply put, unless your cases actually provide substance then I think you will just be a late game liability for town, mostly giving everyone a null read and potentially forcing people to make a town or scum read on you without having much of an idea what you are. So to sum up, kush, I can definitely forgive you for your "style" of posting but I will not under any circumstance forgive you for posting shitty content, just like I will not forgive anyone else for doing so either. Understand that I'm not singling you out as a target, I'm using your history as an example for what I consider scummy play. Now, on to actually read the thread and see if I can respond to something. ACT II - It is as we feared. Kush has defiled us all. FOS Kush + Show Spoiler + On September 28 2012 17:56 Alsn wrote: Wow, upon reading the thread I realise that kush has been following the exact pattern I just now specified to be the way not to play if he wanted to absolve himself in my eyes. In fact, I could go back to my initial posts to him in NMMXXV saying almost the exact same thing. As such, I think I have no choice but to cast a: FoS kushm4sta kush, in order for me to let up, I want you to stop it with your ridiculous knee-jerk play and actually point out why you think other people are scummy as opposed to why you yourself is so obviously town. While the following idiom is quite ironic in a forum game, actions speak louder than words and you defending yourself is just that, meaningless words. Start proving to everyone that you are concerned with finding scum instead of worrying about your silly streak. That being said, I think everyone else is jumping the gun here, kush is an extremely easy target to pick on, especially since he almost never seems to think before he posts. The scumslip that Darth and others pointed out can definitely be seen as damning. However, I am not inclined to agree with the following post from Darth: This last part seems to overly simplify the matter to me. The only reason? I myself can see a few reasons, but I would like kush to reply himself before I comment further as I don't want to give him an easy out. I can state for the record that unless kush shapes up considerably, I'm all in favour of lynching him. Simply because him playing like his normal self would be a liability for town later on due to his inclination to just defend himself over hunting scum. However, I definitely want to give him the benefit of the doubt and allow him to actually try and show that he has town's best interest in mind. So until then, while I definitely would like everyone to share their reads on kush so far, that is not enough for D1. We need to start exploring different possibilities because if we decide to lynch kush and he flips green, spending all of D1 talking about him will put us back at square one minus two townies. I'll make another post within an hour or two on another topic as I think I've made myself perfectly clear on where I stand on kush, but right now I need breakfast. ACT III - DarthPunk, you are going overboard on kush. I find you using ridiculous logic. How are you so sure of this and that? Hm.... I'll go with you being townie, ya know, for throwing yourself out there. + Show Spoiler + On September 28 2012 22:03 Alsn wrote: Astonishing how? I would like you to explain what's so amazingly pro-town about tunneling kush from the very beginning. I find the risks of that approach to be very high from a town perspective. There are two scenarios: A) He flips green, and unless he during the day completely changed his character we will have almost no way of distinguishing who among the people who pushed for his lynch were scum and who were town. B) He flips scum, at this point I just don't find that likely enough to risk A) happening. That fact alone is enough for me to see that post of debears as entirely reasonable, since both of you at the time were basically calling out kush for every single post he was making(for good reason, but not if that's the only thing you are doing). + Show Spoiler + On September 29 2012 00:24 Alsn wrote: Given the evidence so far no, I don't, and frankly I don't see why that's so hard to believe. Given his history, it should be easy to see for anyone that while he has different town and scum metas(as pointed out by Hapahauli in the obs QT of NMMXVII), his comments so far this game is entirely in line with the way he usually posts during D1. Basically just writing up whatever is on his mind. That to me doesn't really increase or decrease the chances of him flipping either way(but the setup of the game says all else being equal, 75% of the players are green, 25% are scum) Yes, you called him out for good reason because his arguments(like so many times before this game) make little to no sense. But right now the only thing I really agree actually points to him being scum is what you call his scum slip. I just do not agree with you of just how damning that statement is. The first thing that sprang to mind when I saw you quoting that was simply that townie was an odd word to use, why not use player? But a confirmed scum slip? Come on, it's not like he said something that is entirely outside the realm of possibility for a town player to say. "Townie" wouldn't be the word I'd use, but I just can't see it as that obvious a scum slip. I'll accept that you are not necessarily wrong for thinking so however. Given that there are no other developments then sure, I'll admit that there's at least a higher chance of kush being scum than a random lurker being scum. But I would really like it if we could at least try to get better odds than that. Best case scenario for me would be actually having everyone talk, present cases and opinions and if no one else presents themselves as scummy, then and only then will I roll the dice on kush. Remember, there are 3 scum, not only one. Who knows, if he's scum as you say, he might look even scummier by lynch time. The case being what it is with kush, I can see now that what you were doing wasn't tunneling per se. However, I think you are doing the very thing you are accusing me of doing where you say debears was trying to "shut down" the case against kush. Like I've said several times now, that's not at all how I interpreted it, only that we shouldn't limit ourselves to a single discussion topic which at the time I felt debears was trying to suggest. Something that I happen to agree with. This statement makes little sense to me. You say you were not tunneling, which I can now appreciate as probably true, but up until recently was not clear at all to me(and probably not to anyone else either). You had made quite a lot of posts in a row with kush as the only topic, as well as trying to convince others in the thread that he absolutely, 100%, no doubt whatsoever must be scum. I didn't find it unreasonable that someone would point that fact out to you. My "premise" was simply that if I find an argument reasonable, someone else trying to poke holes in that argument might not have the same motivations as myself, thus they are suspicious. The bolded line is ridiculous however, especially in context with the sentence before it. What makes you so sure that we would have "a lot of info to go off" in the case of everyone tunneling kush and us lynching him? My A) vs. B) scenario that you are referring to was dependent on the hypothetical scenario of everyone tunneling kush(which I already explained seemed to be where things were going at the time). I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you misunderstood what I was trying to say instead of deliberately using a red herring to try and discredit me. With that in mind, based on your willingness to put yourself out there, I have a slight town read on you. INTERLUDE --- kush goes ape shit. Ravages town with his treachery. Denies every chance he has to be saved, and wails incessantly. The ACT I prophecy was correct. However... ACT IV - It is as I feared. Everyone is voting for kush with little discussion. I dislike this lynch. I'm ok with lynching kush, but I wanna lynch my biggest scum read. You know, the one I don't have. Also, I think that scum wouldn't just go ahead and bus. You know, they would probably most likely trying to find another solution other than bussing. You know, like the thing I'm trying to do right now. + Show Spoiler + On September 29 2012 18:17 Alsn wrote: First, I'd like to start things with stating so far D1 has pretty much lived up to my exact nightmare scenario that I speculated about when arguing with DP yesterday. Everyone is voting kush with only very little discussion about any other topic(mainly, the debears-boson exchange). Looking at the vote count, the last official count says 7, and now corrosion added his vote for a total of 8. With myself that would be 9, the exact number of town in this game. From my point of view, unless kushm4sta, Djodref and Lesrah are the 3 scum, there are scum pushing this lynch. Given that, I'm really starting to dislike this lynch. I agree however that kush has been mostly concerned with defending himself against perceived injustice rather than actually trying to hunt scum, this still does not convince me that he is scum. Lynching scum with an overwhelming majority D1 just seems like way too improbably. Sure, if we had to fight tooth and nail to get 7 votes, I might buy it, but that's not the case. It seems to me there must be scum sheeping onto this lynch. Like I've stated before I can go along with the kush lynch, but I'd rather try and lynch my top scum read at this point and with the current developments, I see a kush lynch more as a last resort than my main scum read. Unfortunately, this argument is only available to people who have yet to vote and are town, as well as to scum since other than myself only scum are aware of my alignment. For everyone else, the "unless a, b and c are scum" argument will include me. My argument is at least enough to convince myself, so I'll be scouring the thread for the next couple of hours to see if my "gut scum reads" so far have any merit and if so push that/those case(s) instead. If it turns out that they are going nowhere, I will vote kush. But I still feel we have enough time to at least have a discussion on the topic of "just wtf is going on here?!". On September 29 2012 18:28 Alsn wrote: A quick addendum, I'm aware that scum pushing the lynch does not exonerate kush since they could be bussing him. However, given the assumption that kush is scum and there are active scum among the voters, I just find it more likely that they would try and find another solution than bussing, especially since it's D1. That's my main reason for not being convinced that kush is scum. ACT V - The resolve. I've had a vision. It is inevitable, kush must be lynched. I have realized the errors of my ways and it is imperative that kush is lynched. + Show Spoiler + On September 29 2012 21:15 Alsn wrote: I've been doing some soul searching and I'm starting to agree that it's not worth it to try and push any other cases right now. Mostly because my entire premise was that I was thinking it to be unlikely for kush to be scum. I realise that after trying to put into words why I think that is so, I have nothing other than the fact that I "feel" him to be town, which is a really stupid reason for absolving him. I thought I could back it up by saying he's been pressured to hard, there's no way he's responsible for not scum hunting. But in the end, I can't find a logical reason to forgive him if I exclude my own gut feeling from the equation. I think now that my best option is to hold on to whatever small reads I have(because while I have some suspicions, I don't think they are rock solid) until after the lynch is over. Because at least then, we will have more information. So for now, although my gut is screaming at me, I'll commit to voting for kush, mostly because most of what I said about BosoN has returned somewhat satisfactory answers, I really don't like the way a lot of people got away with not basically posting anything at all(I'm looking at you, Djodref, corrosion, Omniscient, RemedySC). I think that's probably what irks me the most, the thing I was most hoping would not happen, did happen. ##Vote: kushm4sta sup scum? anyone? | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
On October 01 2012 03:07 RemedySC wrote: Okay, I think the Debears case has some good evidence, but there is one things that bugs me about z-boson's case against debears. I can see how debears comment points out Djo's alignment here- But for a while now there is one post of boson's that has stuck out to me. I feel like that is the same type of post as debears made. Also had a little emergency this morning. False alarm though, so i'm here now. Except that I didn't have a previous post on stutters explaining why he was a sheepy one-liner semi-lurker poster. Read the case one more time please. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
On October 01 2012 03:47 Alsn wrote: Disclaimer!+ Show Spoiler + My original post included the full spoilered quotes of their conversations. Unfortunately, TL got mad at me and said something wussy about a 100000 character post limit, pfah. For that reason, sourcing of my statements are done as links. So, like I said before, I'm working under the theory that debears and Z-BosoN are either both town, or only one of them is scum. I think this because they both committed to attacking each other very early on in the game, even before it was obvious that kush was going to be lynched. They also did not stop doing this just because kush was getting lynched, which suggests to me that either both of them are convinced that it's important that people pay attention to their case, or that one of them is and the other one is just trying to defend himself. I don't see how eliminating the possibility of us both being scum is helpful right now, unless you want to push a lynch of either of us. More importantly, if both of them were scum they would be drawing attention to themselves at the same time that their final teammate was getting torn to shreds, which I can not believe to be true. With that in mind I decided to look at their feud once again to see if there were any tells that one of them was more scummy than the other. First, the entire thing begins with Z-BosoN in my view completely misrepresenting what SDM said in order to throw a FoS on debears. This as some kind of response to debears initial suspicions of Z-BosoN found here. At this point I believe that was just Z-BosoN misreading SDM, and thus finding scumminess where there was none. But it leads to a lot of discussion and material for us to analyze, so that's all well and good, I'm afraid I might have misrepresented it at the time though, not taking the time to look at what happened properly in context. Debears then responds with this post where he says SDM's opinions on lurker policy was there for anyone to see a good 2 hours before Z-BosoN misrepresented him, and also that he thought Z-BosoN was being inconsistent himself(which he was and later admits to). Again, this is merely meant to illustrate that Z-BosoN's original case on debears was in fact weak. Debears should definitely not be considered scummy based on that alone. Then we have the following post where debears again very calmly and reasonably explains to Z-BosoN that he considers his case/FoS to be weak and OMGUS. I agree with that. So far, I'm finding myself exactly on the same side of the argument as I did then. Z-BosoN was clearly out of line in criticising debears. I don't think I'm entirely at fault for thinking he was "trying to shut him up" at around that time. This is also where I have joined the debate, making Z-BosoN reply to my own comments in between their feud, I think my original case has been analyzed to death though, so I won't mention it further. At this point both of them start to also focus on kush since this is around the time when DarthPunk had made his case against kush's behaviour and his slip. Z-BosoN had responded earlier to DP saying he isn't sold on it being a scum slip, but mostly just not liking the way kush was acting.(Source) Z-BosoN then posts his first major case against debears. In it, he attacks debears for perceived inconsistencies but looking at it closely, I find that most of the arguments Z-BosoN put forward are pretty weak. Mostly due to the fact that I found the posts that Z-BosoN are referencing in his case to be very reasonable and without any obvious scum motivation. Debears also addresses this case later on. Oh? Right. I'll save this for later. Now the kush bandwagon is in full swing, both players ask kush to shape up at different stages, Z-BosoN initially, then debears when he gets back into the thread after a 5 hour gap. I don't know if this gap is significant as it did happen during debears' primetime. Which means he probably wasn't asleep but I'm unwilling to draw any conclusions at this time simply because I have no proof one way or the other. I can't find any other reason for their posting about kush at this stage other than the fact that at this point, kush was a highly uncontroversial target, most active players in the thread at this stage are all imploring kush to shape up if he is town and for good reason. Useless paragraph. Yes he was controversial, this was AFTER DP mega-power pushed for kush. That does not mean that everyone wanted him dead. Eventually, debears responds to Z-BosoN's case against him in the following post. In this post(it and Z-BosoN's eventual response are both massive, every time I read them I find out more things that are damning/exonerating about the two of them) wtf are you talking about? he again actually makes a lot of sense to me, with the major thing I don't really buy being his 180 on Djodref. That was one of the arguments I had presented on my case against him, which you just happened to say it was weak!!! Especially since I don't really consider Djodref to have posted in a way that would suggest to me that he should be excused. In my mind all of the lurky players are still somewhat suspicious, and has been from the start, at the very best they are null reads, just dropping a line about coaches and then dropping the matter seems scummy to me. Use. Less. Also, I find the fact that debears has pretty much made no comments about anyone other than Z-BosoN and kush once the wagon was started. For all his talk about not tunnelling kush, he sure seems to be tunnelling pretty hard. Or at the very least, seems intent on defending himself more than anything else. His post with regards to the lurkers came only once Z-BosoN specifically asked him to do so. He did promise a case against me however, so I guess I'll start popping the popcorn. Finally I would like to address Z-BosoN's reply to debears final defense if I can call it that. (clicky) Here he addresses debears final post, a post which like I just pointed out says reasonable things. This all leads me to believe Z-BosoN is suffering from massive confirmation bias. He has for some reason decided that debears is scum a long time ago, and now every single argument debears makes is scummy to him. I'm inclined to think Z-BosoN is town because of this, confirmation bias isn't something scum would suffer from, since they don't need to believe anything, they know. WhaaaAAaaaAaaAaAatT? Ok, this post has so much crap in it that Ima stop right here and just answer everything at once. It is however not very helpful, because even if debears is scum, him defending himself against what I consider to be unjustified criticism is hardly something he can be blamed for. I would however like to see him post more about other players than Z-BosoN, and hopefully he will have time to do so now since Z-BosoN has at least seemingly decided to let things rest for a while, which I think can only be good for us. So to end this, I would like to put a FoS on debears not based on Z-BosoN's case, but based on the following points, as hinted at above.
So to sum this up, I'm thinking that Z-BosoN is town, his play is just too emotional and full of confirmation bias to me to suggest anything else and I do not think that he would or even could fake that. Debears might be scum, but I don't think we have enough proof to say that he is scummy enough to lynch D2, not yet anyway. In my mind he still has a path to redemption and I think we should at least give him that possibility as I'm not convinced that they can't both be town. Given that, my town reads right now amount to DarthPunk for obvious reason, Z-BosoN as stated above and SDM(mostly a feel read right now, but he has made sense from what I've seen so far) and I'm leaning slightly scummy on debears. That being said, I will probably spend the next couple of days focusing on the players that I have not mentioned in this thread. Mostly because at this point, I consider the debears vs Z-BosoN case closed unless something earth shattering happens. This was one massively deluded post. I couldn't have been any clearer on my case against debears. My case presented two main arguments, and one supporting argument that includes a bunch of shit that can feasibly come from a scum. Argument 1) His stance on kush after a direct FOS. Argument 2) His 180 on Djoref. I have made these both very clear in my case. You are acting as if I didn't bring up his 180 on Djoref. Your only "original" argument that could arguably mean something includes him being defensive. That's actually the one thing he has going for him, he's defended himself and still managed to make cases, more cases than you. I started answering this post topic by topic but quickly figured out that it had so much uselessness, so much pointlessness, and so much gibberish that I simply couldn't continue answering straight up. I get emotional when I feel someone is talking too much crap, but that does not automatically make my entire case based on emotion. In this post you've managed to: a) give me a town read based on my "emotion" and "confirmation bias" while throwing my case to shit and then actually using one of it's main arguments. b) make a weaker case against debears, in what seems to be a weakass attempt to justify your vote c) not defend yourself against one certain post I made. Are you gonna say that it's confirmation biased too? This post reeks of mafia mentality. Why? You accuse me of making weak cases based on emotion and confirmation bias. You feel the need to say that this makes me townie. You are trying to discredit me, right after I've made an entire case against you. But you don't want to make it look like you are defending a high priority target like debears, so you go ahead and try to find some other things you can say against him so it can seem like you are genuinely after him. Right afterwards you try an AtE (appeal to emotion). On October 01 2012 03:55 Alsn wrote: And that took me just about 6 hours. In the end the only thing I managed to conclude was that I think we need more information. Hopefully I can find something more conclusive during the next couple of days, assuming I don't get NKd but I find that hard to believe right now. I'll just end with the fact that I think we definitely need to focus on the people who have posted very little because I suspect there are scum to be found there. I'm just a little shocked by how little scumminess I'm reading so far but that probably just means that the people I've been focusing on aren't scum, but we'll see. I'll be checking in for another couple of hours on and off but nothing major before I sleep. Basically crying about your pro-town efforts, which, ultimately, surmount to zero contribution. Also, in this post, you try to divert attention from the huge wall you've just posted, saying we should target other people who have not posted more. That is not town mentality. It shows you value very little your actually case about debears, and that you are not willing to take a stance. corrosion On October 01 2012 04:59 corrosion wrote: I had a look at the cases Z-boson and Debears made against me. I thought both looked messy. I still do. Now Boson didn't jump on my post immediately, and others (Darth?)say his posting fits his town meta, so I'm going to assume that his motivation was scum hunting for now. Debears case is a huge wall of text without much actual content. I think it's suspicious. Is he trying to clutter up the thread and make chaos? I can see mafia motivation behind this. I did not make a case against you. Getting defensive? @DarthPunk I'm getting fairly busy this week, but there is one more aspect from debears that I've noticed but haven't gone over yet. His whole relation with kush is also very, very shaky. I have to go sleep, but please go control+F kush on debears filter and see what you can come up with, to see if you reach the same observations as I. At the moment, refer to my above post, Alsn is coming off as insanely scummy. He's trying very hard, it must be. In my mind I've come up with a debears/Alsn scumteam, and from what I've gathered, the latest posts give sense to this. I don't think Djodref is scum, or at least he hasn't shown it yet. He'd make a terrible day 2 lynch, imo. I still have to think whos a better day2 lynch, whether it's debears or Alsn. Gonna go sleep, gnight all. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
I will look carefully through both their filters. It's tough, because I've read some of XXVII and debears did a pretty good job as scum, and Alsn almost has no meta to look at. I am extremely busy at the moment, so I'll probably just end up voting, and giving light reasoning behind it. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
On October 02 2012 13:55 DarthPunk wrote:  Don't prioritise your other game so much over this one please.Haha I'm playing that game so crappily because I'm not giving it much attention at all. Had to take some time off to stop playing shitty. Reading your case | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
@6:56 - kush begins going apeshit, throwing thoughtless posts On September 29 2012 06:56 kushm4sta wrote: wow only 2 votes. it seems like everyone wants to lynch me and I make imo the vest case and no one even cares because they want to lynch me so bad. On September 29 2012 06:57 kushm4sta wrote: it seems like I am.beyond helping myself. why would I want to help a town that is going to lynch me On September 29 2012 07:08 kushm4sta wrote: sorry guys I'm being stupid. moretryhard coming regardless of if you lynch me. also zbosom your case sucks really bad lol. everyone is thinking it. I'm not afraidbto hurt your feelings though. On September 29 2012 07:32 kushm4sta wrote: zboso I dead will be more valuableble than you alive...dat debears case And finally: On September 29 2012 07:44 kushm4sta wrote: debears I saved you bro...scumteam 4 lyfe 50 minutes later... @8:35: whole different tone. Apologetic, calm. On September 29 2012 08:35 kushm4sta wrote: OFC I can remedy. You are the remedy for my sadness. What I meant is at the last second every consolidates on 1 afker because they can't decide on someone active to lynch. It keeps pressure on scum because scum feel like they still have a chance of being lynched, rather than if you just say from the beginning "yeah we're gonna lynch an afk" On September 29 2012 08:39 kushm4sta wrote: It felt hopeless honestly. See my drive to do well is inherently connecting to self survival and when I think I'm going to die that drive goes away. Everyone said they wanted to lynch me... it was either me or an afker and it was definitely going to be me. On September 29 2012 08:58 kushm4sta wrote: i apologize btw @9:28: Then, he slowly regresses to his dumb desperate self, insulting my case and so forth.: On September 29 2012 09:28 kushm4sta wrote: darth is going to be so happy when he gets back On September 29 2012 10:05 kushm4sta wrote: all vote kush then you can afk until d2 On September 29 2012 11:33 kushm4sta wrote: he thinks your base on debears is bad.. I know you try harded on it and I'm sorry dude. Just wait he's going to think it's bad. It all came right after that post. I'm not going to go into details, won't use it as an argument, but it's not like I can just ignore it. At a glance, Alsn's posting seem much scummier than yours. I'm almost certain one of you, if not both of you are scum at this point. It's just that, you being scum, it all fits, including some other thoughts of my own. Regardless of what you come out as, he's likely gonna come off lynched day 3, and I will see to that. ##Vote debears | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
What do you mean by the bolded part? Can you please clarify? Because. I stated very clearly that I would vote for whoever did the most scum hunting. You then proceed to tunnell alsn like a maniac. Who also happens to be your direct lynch opponent. And alsn does not seem to want to do things which he believes are anti town to fulfil some arbitrary objective I set. But you do. Just like what I said about lurker lynches. If you give scum a goal in order to be safe. They will set out to meet this goal. I gave you both a 'goal'. you compromised and backtracked on what you previously had stated was anit town. (Tunnelling hard) Alsn did not nearly as much. Where did you state this? | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
The bolded part says that you would lynch whoever made the most scumhunting. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
Allright guys, I'm still torn on the lynch choice for today, big post incoming. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
The Battle for the Noose Alsn vs. debears ![[image loading]](http://www.newyorkemploymentlawattorneys.com/files/2011/11/Noose.jpg) The tables are set. The town remains asunder. The arguments on both sides are compelling. Each one of them wants the other dead, and only one will live to fight another day. Alsn Main posts against him. They are both mine, and I want people to read them again. The meta read I've added later is complementary to this main case as to why I think he's scummy. + Show Spoiler + On September 30 2012 17:13 Z-BosoN wrote: So I woke up a couple of hours earlier than I should have. Instead of going back to sleep, I decide to go read some filters. Sometimes I hate this game rofl. Anyways, I will agree with one thing DP said, alsn is scummy as shit. Look at his stance on kush throughout the thread. Brief timeline here: ACT I - Kush. If you are scummy like last game, I will lynch you no matter what. + Show Spoiler + On September 28 2012 16:54 Alsn wrote: Hey everyone, just woke up and was about to check when the game was supposed to start. Imagine my surprise when it's already started! Although looking closely the game started as I went to sleep, so I wouldn't have been able to participate until now either way. So in any case, I'm Alsn, I like logic. My previous mafia games so far amount to a single one, a game where I was NKd N1 as Vanilla Townie. My filter for that game can be found here. Other than that I have only ever played SC2 Mafia in any significant amounts(a game while using the same core rules, plays extremely different due to the time constraints and limits on discussion). If you are interested, I was also active in the /obs QT discussion of NMMXXVII which can be found here. So, with that out of the way, I read the first few posts and saw that this game continues the trend of lurker policy lynching. I agree that there needs to be pressure on scum to actually post, since without scum posts to analyse all the scumhunting in the world will almost certainly only turn up townies(due to lurkers generally being null reads). That said, I followed Tl Mafia LVII wherein there was a lot of discussion about lynching "trolly meta" players and I would like to take that one step further. Kush, while I realize that you have a posting style which by its nature is very confrontational and inflammatory, I feel that unless you actually provide some concrete analysis without using almost purely OMGUS argumentation that it is in town's best interest to just straight up lynch you right away. Simply put, unless your cases actually provide substance then I think you will just be a late game liability for town, mostly giving everyone a null read and potentially forcing people to make a town or scum read on you without having much of an idea what you are. So to sum up, kush, I can definitely forgive you for your "style" of posting but I will not under any circumstance forgive you for posting shitty content, just like I will not forgive anyone else for doing so either. Understand that I'm not singling you out as a target, I'm using your history as an example for what I consider scummy play. Now, on to actually read the thread and see if I can respond to something. ACT II - It is as we feared. Kush has defiled us all. FOS Kush + Show Spoiler + On September 28 2012 17:56 Alsn wrote: Wow, upon reading the thread I realise that kush has been following the exact pattern I just now specified to be the way not to play if he wanted to absolve himself in my eyes. In fact, I could go back to my initial posts to him in NMMXXV saying almost the exact same thing. As such, I think I have no choice but to cast a: FoS kushm4sta kush, in order for me to let up, I want you to stop it with your ridiculous knee-jerk play and actually point out why you think other people are scummy as opposed to why you yourself is so obviously town. While the following idiom is quite ironic in a forum game, actions speak louder than words and you defending yourself is just that, meaningless words. Start proving to everyone that you are concerned with finding scum instead of worrying about your silly streak. That being said, I think everyone else is jumping the gun here, kush is an extremely easy target to pick on, especially since he almost never seems to think before he posts. The scumslip that Darth and others pointed out can definitely be seen as damning. However, I am not inclined to agree with the following post from Darth: This last part seems to overly simplify the matter to me. The only reason? I myself can see a few reasons, but I would like kush to reply himself before I comment further as I don't want to give him an easy out. I can state for the record that unless kush shapes up considerably, I'm all in favour of lynching him. Simply because him playing like his normal self would be a liability for town later on due to his inclination to just defend himself over hunting scum. However, I definitely want to give him the benefit of the doubt and allow him to actually try and show that he has town's best interest in mind. So until then, while I definitely would like everyone to share their reads on kush so far, that is not enough for D1. We need to start exploring different possibilities because if we decide to lynch kush and he flips green, spending all of D1 talking about him will put us back at square one minus two townies. I'll make another post within an hour or two on another topic as I think I've made myself perfectly clear on where I stand on kush, but right now I need breakfast. ACT III - DarthPunk, you are going overboard on kush. I find you using ridiculous logic. How are you so sure of this and that? Hm.... I'll go with you being townie, ya know, for throwing yourself out there. + Show Spoiler + On September 28 2012 22:03 Alsn wrote: Astonishing how? I would like you to explain what's so amazingly pro-town about tunneling kush from the very beginning. I find the risks of that approach to be very high from a town perspective. There are two scenarios: A) He flips green, and unless he during the day completely changed his character we will have almost no way of distinguishing who among the people who pushed for his lynch were scum and who were town. B) He flips scum, at this point I just don't find that likely enough to risk A) happening. That fact alone is enough for me to see that post of debears as entirely reasonable, since both of you at the time were basically calling out kush for every single post he was making(for good reason, but not if that's the only thing you are doing). + Show Spoiler + On September 29 2012 00:24 Alsn wrote: Given the evidence so far no, I don't, and frankly I don't see why that's so hard to believe. Given his history, it should be easy to see for anyone that while he has different town and scum metas(as pointed out by Hapahauli in the obs QT of NMMXVII), his comments so far this game is entirely in line with the way he usually posts during D1. Basically just writing up whatever is on his mind. That to me doesn't really increase or decrease the chances of him flipping either way(but the setup of the game says all else being equal, 75% of the players are green, 25% are scum) Yes, you called him out for good reason because his arguments(like so many times before this game) make little to no sense. But right now the only thing I really agree actually points to him being scum is what you call his scum slip. I just do not agree with you of just how damning that statement is. The first thing that sprang to mind when I saw you quoting that was simply that townie was an odd word to use, why not use player? But a confirmed scum slip? Come on, it's not like he said something that is entirely outside the realm of possibility for a town player to say. "Townie" wouldn't be the word I'd use, but I just can't see it as that obvious a scum slip. I'll accept that you are not necessarily wrong for thinking so however. Given that there are no other developments then sure, I'll admit that there's at least a higher chance of kush being scum than a random lurker being scum. But I would really like it if we could at least try to get better odds than that. Best case scenario for me would be actually having everyone talk, present cases and opinions and if no one else presents themselves as scummy, then and only then will I roll the dice on kush. Remember, there are 3 scum, not only one. Who knows, if he's scum as you say, he might look even scummier by lynch time. The case being what it is with kush, I can see now that what you were doing wasn't tunneling per se. However, I think you are doing the very thing you are accusing me of doing where you say debears was trying to "shut down" the case against kush. Like I've said several times now, that's not at all how I interpreted it, only that we shouldn't limit ourselves to a single discussion topic which at the time I felt debears was trying to suggest. Something that I happen to agree with. This statement makes little sense to me. You say you were not tunneling, which I can now appreciate as probably true, but up until recently was not clear at all to me(and probably not to anyone else either). You had made quite a lot of posts in a row with kush as the only topic, as well as trying to convince others in the thread that he absolutely, 100%, no doubt whatsoever must be scum. I didn't find it unreasonable that someone would point that fact out to you. My "premise" was simply that if I find an argument reasonable, someone else trying to poke holes in that argument might not have the same motivations as myself, thus they are suspicious. The bolded line is ridiculous however, especially in context with the sentence before it. What makes you so sure that we would have "a lot of info to go off" in the case of everyone tunneling kush and us lynching him? My A) vs. B) scenario that you are referring to was dependent on the hypothetical scenario of everyone tunneling kush(which I already explained seemed to be where things were going at the time). I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you misunderstood what I was trying to say instead of deliberately using a red herring to try and discredit me. With that in mind, based on your willingness to put yourself out there, I have a slight town read on you. INTERLUDE --- kush goes ape shit. Ravages town with his treachery. Denies every chance he has to be saved, and wails incessantly. The ACT I prophecy was correct. However... ACT IV - It is as I feared. Everyone is voting for kush with little discussion. I dislike this lynch. I'm ok with lynching kush, but I wanna lynch my biggest scum read. You know, the one I don't have. Also, I think that scum wouldn't just go ahead and bus. You know, they would probably most likely trying to find another solution other than bussing. You know, like the thing I'm trying to do right now. + Show Spoiler + On September 29 2012 18:17 Alsn wrote: First, I'd like to start things with stating so far D1 has pretty much lived up to my exact nightmare scenario that I speculated about when arguing with DP yesterday. Everyone is voting kush with only very little discussion about any other topic(mainly, the debears-boson exchange). Looking at the vote count, the last official count says 7, and now corrosion added his vote for a total of 8. With myself that would be 9, the exact number of town in this game. From my point of view, unless kushm4sta, Djodref and Lesrah are the 3 scum, there are scum pushing this lynch. Given that, I'm really starting to dislike this lynch. I agree however that kush has been mostly concerned with defending himself against perceived injustice rather than actually trying to hunt scum, this still does not convince me that he is scum. Lynching scum with an overwhelming majority D1 just seems like way too improbably. Sure, if we had to fight tooth and nail to get 7 votes, I might buy it, but that's not the case. It seems to me there must be scum sheeping onto this lynch. Like I've stated before I can go along with the kush lynch, but I'd rather try and lynch my top scum read at this point and with the current developments, I see a kush lynch more as a last resort than my main scum read. Unfortunately, this argument is only available to people who have yet to vote and are town, as well as to scum since other than myself only scum are aware of my alignment. For everyone else, the "unless a, b and c are scum" argument will include me. My argument is at least enough to convince myself, so I'll be scouring the thread for the next couple of hours to see if my "gut scum reads" so far have any merit and if so push that/those case(s) instead. If it turns out that they are going nowhere, I will vote kush. But I still feel we have enough time to at least have a discussion on the topic of "just wtf is going on here?!". On September 29 2012 18:28 Alsn wrote: A quick addendum, I'm aware that scum pushing the lynch does not exonerate kush since they could be bussing him. However, given the assumption that kush is scum and there are active scum among the voters, I just find it more likely that they would try and find another solution than bussing, especially since it's D1. That's my main reason for not being convinced that kush is scum. ACT V - The resolve. I've had a vision. It is inevitable, kush must be lynched. I have realized the errors of my ways and it is imperative that kush is lynched. + Show Spoiler + On September 29 2012 21:15 Alsn wrote: I've been doing some soul searching and I'm starting to agree that it's not worth it to try and push any other cases right now. Mostly because my entire premise was that I was thinking it to be unlikely for kush to be scum. I realise that after trying to put into words why I think that is so, I have nothing other than the fact that I "feel" him to be town, which is a really stupid reason for absolving him. I thought I could back it up by saying he's been pressured to hard, there's no way he's responsible for not scum hunting. But in the end, I can't find a logical reason to forgive him if I exclude my own gut feeling from the equation. I think now that my best option is to hold on to whatever small reads I have(because while I have some suspicions, I don't think they are rock solid) until after the lynch is over. Because at least then, we will have more information. So for now, although my gut is screaming at me, I'll commit to voting for kush, mostly because most of what I said about BosoN has returned somewhat satisfactory answers, I really don't like the way a lot of people got away with not basically posting anything at all(I'm looking at you, Djodref, corrosion, Omniscient, RemedySC). I think that's probably what irks me the most, the thing I was most hoping would not happen, did happen. ##Vote: kushm4sta sup scum? anyone? + Show Spoiler + On October 01 2012 13:37 Z-BosoN wrote: This was one massively deluded post. I couldn't have been any clearer on my case against debears. My case presented two main arguments, and one supporting argument that includes a bunch of shit that can feasibly come from a scum. Argument 1) His stance on kush after a direct FOS. Argument 2) His 180 on Djoref. I have made these both very clear in my case. You are acting as if I didn't bring up his 180 on Djoref. Your only "original" argument that could arguably mean something includes him being defensive. That's actually the one thing he has going for him, he's defended himself and still managed to make cases, more cases than you. I started answering this post topic by topic but quickly figured out that it had so much uselessness, so much pointlessness, and so much gibberish that I simply couldn't continue answering straight up. I get emotional when I feel someone is talking too much crap, but that does not automatically make my entire case based on emotion. In this post you've managed to: a) give me a town read based on my "emotion" and "confirmation bias" while throwing my case to shit and then actually using one of it's main arguments. b) make a weaker case against debears, in what seems to be a weakass attempt to justify your vote c) not defend yourself against one certain post I made. Are you gonna say that it's confirmation biased too? This post reeks of mafia mentality. Why? You accuse me of making weak cases based on emotion and confirmation bias. You feel the need to say that this makes me townie. You are trying to discredit me, right after I've made an entire case against you. But you don't want to make it look like you are defending a high priority target like debears, so you go ahead and try to find some other things you can say against him so it can seem like you are genuinely after him. Right afterwards you try an AtE (appeal to emotion). Basically crying about your pro-town efforts, which, ultimately, surmount to zero contribution. Also, in this post, you try to divert attention from the huge wall you've just posted, saying we should target other people who have not posted more. That is not town mentality. It shows you value very little your actually case about debears, and that you are not willing to take a stance. corrosion I did not make a case against you. Getting defensive? @DarthPunk I'm getting fairly busy this week, but there is one more aspect from debears that I've noticed but haven't gone over yet. His whole relation with kush is also very, very shaky. I have to go sleep, but please go control+F kush on debears filter and see what you can come up with, to see if you reach the same observations as I. At the moment, refer to my above post, Alsn is coming off as insanely scummy. He's trying very hard, it must be. In my mind I've come up with a debears/Alsn scumteam, and from what I've gathered, the latest posts give sense to this. I don't think Djodref is scum, or at least he hasn't shown it yet. He'd make a terrible day 2 lynch, imo. I still have to think whos a better day2 lynch, whether it's debears or Alsn. Gonna go sleep, gnight all. I feel that my own two posts against him were the most significant. Debears has also added how he doesn't scumhunt. I'd like to go deeper in this providing a meta-read, from his game in XXV. He was shot n1, so all his cases were made in the space of a day. First post: + Show Spoiler + On August 24 2012 11:13 Alsn wrote: @Lvdr I tend to agree that Shady is not deviating much from his town meta, but as I said earlier I don't think we can trust meta that much in a game like this, especially since many of us are not qualified enough to draw conclusions from it. With such a small sample size we are bound to make mistakes if we focus on it too much. In fact, I think it's too early to tell from a few hours of one-liners and newbie advice even if there was some good analysis to be had from it. As for yourself, I would think that as an experienced player you would be able to offer better advice to the beginners than: Given that, I feel that the following comment deserves scrutiny: This because this to me feels more like you are trying to make the new players do the work for you and then claim credit later on through "I made them do the analysis!". Especially since comparing meta is not something easily done during a stressful day 1 as a new player(I tried while observing XXIV, it's really confusing). So Lvdr, while I have no good reason to suspect you on anything but what I right now perceive as laziness, that could change if you don't start leading by example instead of through fingerpointing. @kushm4sta, @WeeTee: The entire point of discussion is to make people explain their thoughts and reasoning. So instead of thinking you have nothing to add, try and figure out ways to question people's motivations. Why, for example, did players call you out in the way they did? Was it to deflect? Was it to make themselves seem overly active while they in fact were not? Was there another reason such as simply trying to help you start contributing? There is a good reason for the "lynch the lurker" policy. This because it is in the towns interest to catch scum with dubious motivations or casting blame on shaky grounds and that can only happen if we force them to speak up. Thus, the worst thing you can do right now is to stay quiet and offer yourselves up to scum casting the blame on you without themselves seeming suspicious. Instead, what we presumably want to encourage are lots of backs and forths in order to have a history on who everyone suspected and when, and for what reason(the filter button on the right side of people's posts are good for seeing this). As long as you carefully think about your arguments, no self-respecting townie should have any problem with starting discussion. Things to start discussions about can be: Who seems to be promoting the town agenda? Who are the people that look the most suspicious to you? And why! Is there someone who you feel are using bad or dodgy reasons as basis for their arguments? Looking at the thread there have been a few posts since I started writing this, will read and post more in a while. Notice how he's inquisitive. Is asking around for suspicions. Quickly, he sends out his FOS (ironically, against kush): + Show Spoiler + On August 24 2012 11:33 Alsn wrote: (Emphasis mine) I like that you are starting to contribute to the discussion. I don't, however, agree with your conclusion. If you look at the following post(long, so spoilered it): + Show Spoiler + On August 24 2012 09:34 thrawn2112 wrote: If it comes down to voting for a strong scumread and one of several lurkers, I'd rather go with the scumread. Being too focused on lurkers caused me to play poorly in my last game. If I make a strong case against a player I am definitely going to vote for them. Excluding that, lynching a lurker is the backup plan. Your experience of how mafia players lurk during newbie games is something I don't have so I don't share your commitment to a flat out "only lynch a lurker during D1" plan. I don't think that "worst outcome of lurking is to not get lynched" but I don't think that D1 is the time to do it. Of course there are always exceptions...such as the player who has 4 posts at the end of D1, he's sheeping the popular cases, and never offers any original reasoning for his votes. But yeah, hopefully lurking won't be an issue. I expect all this talk about lurker policy will help achieve that. And this disagreement isn't that big of an issue to me, because if I have a case worth lynching someone over then it should be a strong enough case to convince everyone else. That post also caught my eye and I suggested that he comment on the current discussion but so far there's been nothing. Kush it's not too big a deal this early on but the longer you wait the worse it's going to look. In this post thrawn argues with Lvdr about the lyrker lynch policy and makes clear and concise arguments and in fact comes to the conclusion that the policy post did it's job in that it put focus on starting discussion. Something which is good for town. You then immediately jump to the conclusion that he must be scum that wants to look like town. I feel this is overly aggressive on your part and while it's entirely possible that you are just feeling attacked right now and reacting a bit emotionally, please understand that things are not personal. If you are in fact a townie trying to cast blame on someone you suspect as scum, you should use clearly articulated points with a clear explanation of the basis of your argument. So until you prove to me otherwise, I feel I must suspect you for being overly defensive about your posting. FoS kushm4sta Again, quite agressive. From there, it gets better: + Show Spoiler + On August 24 2012 11:59 Alsn wrote: I've already warned you, this is not a game based on gut feeling and emotion. A statement such as "85% mafia" is something which needs a lot more evidence than a few one-liners this early into the game. You are providing a lot of controversy with very little thoughtful analysis. I ask that if you are truly town to take a good look at yourself and think. You most certainly do not have to blame someone else in order for yourself to look like less of a target. In fact, baseless accusation only lets scum attack you for being incoherent while in one fell swoop make themselves look like town-heroes. This with town having only to agree that you were playing very weirdly. I do believe that you are simply responding in a knee-jerk fashion to our attacks against you. Take a deep breath, take a look at what you have said, and think about if you really had good reason to say the things you did. If not, simply tell us. But if you truly suspect someone, you absolutely must provide better evidence than "waaah, he called me bad!", otherwise the rest of us can't make any sense of your suspicions. Here he takes a strong stance on how mafia is not a game of emotion. Whereas in this game, he has this to say: On September 29 2012 21:20 Alsn wrote: Get over yourself, I said I like logic, not that I don't have emotions or the capacity to be swayed by them like anyone else. "It's not that I don't have emotions or the capacity to be swayed be them like anyone else". Very, very different. Onward. + Show Spoiler + On August 24 2012 15:00 Alsn wrote: I'd just like to state the fact that among the people that have been active so far, every single one has pointed out that kushm4sta's posting quality has not been particularly stellar or helpful from town's point of view, it has sparked a lot of conversation, I also feel that we have all conveyed our feelings that in order for his posting to help town, he needs to start putting a lot more thought into his arguments. That being said, while there has been some analysis of other posters, I would love it if we could stop focusing on kushm4sta for now. This in order to make sure people who hasn't contributed much yet are grilled about it, and that we make sure there is more than a single person being attacked. I noticed that Shady Sands also completely dodged the accusations by Spaghetticus after a post claiming he had to get some work done but has been very busy on TL for the last 2,5 hours. So, in conclusion, please stop the tunnelvisioning on kushm4sta for now and let's see if we can't find something else to talk about for a while too. After all, there's a lot of time left before lynch. Tries to be proactive, something he's not done yet here. + Show Spoiler + On August 25 2012 08:36 Alsn wrote: So, right now I get the feeling that the feud between Shady and Lvdr is what is most likely to yield fruitful results, seeing as kush has been told several times over about what the situation is and what he should be doing. With that in mind, I feel I must take Lvdr's side in this. I had had a long running suspicion against Lvdr since before I went to bed and was planning on making a case against him when I woke up, this was mostly because of his general lack of content in his posts. Upon closer inspection of his filter however, while he has a lot of very short posts, to me they all seem to lead in the proper direction, often mirroring my own thoughts on the matter. Not so with Shady, the last thing he wrote of substance before I went to bed was the following:+ Show Spoiler + On August 24 2012 15:43 Shady Sands wrote:Oh :S my bad then. I'm going to say we should just do one of two things: 1) We collectively decide he's town and ignore him as a major target for the remainder of D1, move the discussion onto other folks 2) We lynch him first and get him out of the way Let's figure this out fast, before we use up the rest of D1 just talking about him. At first, I thought this was a sound argument, but upon closer inspection I get the feeling that he just wanted to be able to later on get a wagon going against kush and I'll explain why. The first option of ignoring him completely just seems too extreme. Why is this the only other option? This sounds to me as if he is trying to force everyone to conclude that only the second option is worthwhile. Also, this statement is similar to other statements made by myself and others(Shady included) earlier in the thread that we should focus on other people instead of tunneling kush, but with a subtle difference. It suggests to ignore him completely! Then he tries to stress us into making a decision fast. The argument can be made for stressing the point being a town motivated idea to spur on conversation and getting out hopeful scumslips, but he completely abandons the idea later when it does not take hold. Later on he accuses Lvdr and puts a FoS on him. That was something that I was in full agreement with before I went to bed but as the thread continued on, I no longer agree. Lvdr having a town agenda makes sense to me from the posts he has made. Letting up on kush when we all agree that it's not leading anywhere could be seen as a scum move due to everyone already having come to the same conclusion, but on the other hand doubling down on kush makes very little sense to me. The issue of the roleclaim is something I want kush to defend himself against, but until such a thing happens and we get closer to having to come to a consensus(I'll be awake from now until lynch time), I don't think kush is someone we should be focusing too much on. He absolutely must start partaking in dicussion without knee-jerk responses though! Because of this, I'm changing my read on kushm4sta to a null read, while declaring a: FoS Shady Sands This is all with the caveat that I cannot deny Shady's last point about wanting input from Weetee, myself and Spaghetticus, and I'm not entirely happy with kush's, mkfuba's and Dandel Ion's contributions so far either. Brings forth another FoS. Is more analytical. Next two posts also go ahead and extend the view on how he is proactive, how he often takes the "Guys, we should do this" or "Guys, I want to do that" stance. + Show Spoiler + On August 25 2012 13:20 Alsn wrote: Ok, I would like to take a step back and see where we are right now and what our options are. As I see it, we have 2 people pushing for actual votes. thrawn and Shady. I'm inclined to believe either story but I do find both of you to be a bit premature in your conclusions. Maybe you are just waiting for more information and just want to get the voting started, which I suppose is a fair point. Both of the proposed lynchees are being pushed due to the fact that they are playing as "bad townies". Let's disregard for the moment if they are doing so under pretenses or if they were genuinely put off balance by attacks during the early part of the day. I will state for the record that given the choice of only kush or WeeTee, I would prefer to lynch WT. Simply because the JK claim is something we should be able to confirm later on in the game. Dandel Ion, mkfuba, Lvdr and Spaghetticus. What are your feelings on this subject? Should town be ok with just picking either WeeTee or kush to lynch, or is there something else of substance to go on? From the last few posts here, I'm feeling relatively sure about thrawn being town, mostly due to the material he has produced, but also for following through on WT with what I would say is great success for his case. It should be noted however from looking at his filter, that most of his posting has been on the policy discussion early on, as well as defending people when it was highly non-controversial to do so(shady and lvdr early on, and me when WT attacked me). Shady, I'm still not entirely satisfied with your reasons for going so hard on kush, but I can't entirely disagree with your reasoning. I would like it if Lvdr came back to defend himself more against the things pointed out against him by you and others. Because while I agree with the following quote: And you,Lvdr, could make yourself a lot clearer on a lot of topics, Shady's criticism of you has not been entirely without merit and while I think he jumped the gun, it would help the rest of us if you could elaborate. Especially your backtrack on mkfuba who I also feel needs to get his stuff together and write something of substance. + Show Spoiler + On August 26 2012 03:21 Alsn wrote: Ok, had to take a nap for a few hours in order to be able to stay awake at lynch time, but now I'm back. Boy did things happen in those few hours! First, I would generally like to agree with spag about kush/WT as I made clear in my earlier post that I only really wanted to lynch WT if there was no other option. That being said, if I am to exclude them both as lynch targets today the cases presented so far are against Shady Sands, Lvdr and Dandel Ion. Seeing as I have already placed suspicion of my own against Shady, I absolutely understand where Spag is coming from. However, right now I'm more inclined to believe that he is overzealous, especially considering the fact that if we (mis)lynch someone else, he is one of the players that we have the most material on for analysis as outlined by Lvdr. I would like to return to the discussion we had early about lurker lynching. From what we have gathered so far, the "lurkiest"(descending from most lurky) seem to be: Dandel Ion, mkfuba, WT, kush and arguably Lvdr and Spag. I feel that Lvdr and Spag has at least provided enough thoughts of their own that they can be considered non-lurky, and mkfuba to some degree has done this as well. You all know my opinion of WT/kush resembles that of Spag. This leaves Dandel Ion as a lurky player that we don't know very much about. For this reason, I'm inclined to agree with Lvdr that Dandel Ion is a lynch that town should be able to get behind. I realize that mkfuba accusing Lvdr has merit, and I will address his concerns, but first. ##Vote Dandel Ion @mkfuba: I entirely agree with your concerns regarding Lvdr, but I find his arguments for lynching Dandel Ion compelling. I also think that a (supposed) scum Lvdr has gotten away with posting way too little motivations for his reasoning. I called him out on more than one occasion for exactly that reason. I do believe that asking him to shape up during N1/D2 would reveal his intentions however. Also, while your case against Lvdr has some merit, I feel that your own motivations could easily be seen as scummy, for these resons I cannot get behind your case just yet. @Spag: I agree with you that if you are wearing scum-tinted glasses, looking at Shady's behavior can easily be seen as scum, I need look no further than my own FoS to see that and your own case surely doesn't help me lose that suspicion. Like I said earlier in this post, I do believe we need to give him the benefit of the doubt as well however. @everyone I urge you all to listen to Spag's argument regarding WT/kush, please instead get behind one of the other cases and tell us your reasons for doing so. I would like to repeat my earlier sentiment that if the only choice we have is between kushm4sta and WeeTee, my vote will go on WeeTee. I would however like to see us come to some kind of consensus at least an hour before lynch time. 2:40 to go. Why he's a better lynch target Note the INSANE contrast he's shown this game. He's come off as a weak, insecure, non-scumhunting player. In the other game, as above, where he was town, he was an inquisitive, proactive, and unemotional townie, and even went and got shot because of it. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
debears Main cases against him. Same thing. read. My own, which contain the two main things against him, plus a bunch of other things. + Show Spoiler + On September 29 2012 05:29 Z-BosoN wrote: All right, I went through debears filter now, and I'm confident he is scum. Let's go through this more carefully now. His first post: First of all, his "I want town to win!!" post telling town to use their coaches. He then FoS's Kush, due to the fact that he's playing a similar game as the one he was scum. He says that DP + kush flame war is bad for the town, but doesn't attack Darthpunk, probably because he finds kush to be more scummy looking. Now, from a townie perspective, what does debear want? Information in order to lynch kush, as he pointed a FOS mostly based on a meta read. But suddenly, towards darthpunk: He is defensive towards kush. That's not how townies think. While I agree that DP is a bit overboard on kush, I don't agree that he failed to give arguments as to why he thinks that is so. A townie with a FOS on someone will want to deal with the arguments first. He doesn't do that, and suddenly becomes defensive on Kush. He says, later: He is more bothered by DPs certainty than by his actual arguments. Inconsistency #1. He then comes up with two cases. One against me, and one against Djoref: Notice the similarity between the two. He attacks us for asking questions (later on denies that they provide any discussion whatsoever), and falls into the same "semi-active lurker" category he's sniffing about. I will ignore the quality of his arguments, which I personally think are horrible, and will look more towards their similarity. From his case against me: From his case against Djoref: See the similarity, especially the bolded part? It seems that he has this "semi-active scum" cake recipe that he is using to sniff out scum. He also calls us out on our posting quality, in my case saying it is bad. I won't address his next post towards me because I've already done so, and because it doesn't increase his scumminess , as "bad cases =/= scum" (although it pisses me off). Anyways, now to the main stuff. He has a case against me and Djoref, for pretty much the same reasoning. Yet, check out what his next post on Djoref is: Wtf??? What ?? Where is his case against Djoref?? He goes from a scummy-looking sheep with one liners to a "townie who should pm marv for help"? Could he have forgotten that Djoref was one of his main suspicions? Inconsistency #2 Note that I no longer think that his defense of SDM is scummy. I've gone over that a few times and I admit that it can also come from a townie perspective. To summarize, here are the main inconsistencies in his play that scream to me SCUM: 1) He had a FOS on kush, then hurried on to defend him, in the manner I've shown above. I cannot fathom for the life of me having a FOS on someone and suddenly feel like I have to address an exaggeration on that person before I actually address the case. 2) He completely absolves Djoref for absolutely no reason. Townies do not throw around suspicions only to insta-drop them. 3) The other supporting arguments I've shown above. debears is SCUM! ##vote debears This case led to some massive follow-up between me and debears. Please read this as well, I'm not gonna quote it here because that would occupy too much unnecessary time. It starts somewhere around here. DP's follow-ups: + Show Spoiler + On October 02 2012 13:54 DarthPunk wrote: Starts the Game with a FoS on Kush. Then after I push kush for reasons similar to the cause of his won FoS he imply's suspicion on me. This is AFTER kush's scumslip when it is obviouskush is scum. At this point I was incredulous so I ask debears to comment on the case instead of saying 'I am coming off strong' He post this. Honestly. A brazen scumslip from the person you FoS in your first post and all he says is there is not much to say about it and it gives the 'impression of extra information' This was the moment I first became suspicious of debears. He has, in the space of a few posts, gone from a confident FoS on kush to unsure and soft defending him. Soft defending Kush. At this point Kush had slipped, had conformed to the scum meta that Debears KNOWS 100% from last game and Debears had FoS'd Kush in his first post for conforming to. Yet, the harder I push kush, the more Debears soft defends him. He then tries to shift attention from kush by posting 2 cases on other players. Read the bold. If that is not the most contradictory soft defense I have ever seen. I don;t know what is. Next up we have his 'slip' This is just funny. Just like kush calling me the most active townie and then calling me his top scum read, posting a case on someone then directing them to the town coach is incredibly disingenuous. Probably not enough to lynch him on it's own but I feel it is important because: a.) It is a slip that is unrelated to the Kush/darthpunk arguments. b.) He is scummy independent of this. Moving on. Here are a series of strange posts by Debears on Kush. Whom he FoS'd day one and who had slipped Then after kush has his melt down, His attitude changes dramatically. From the above to full bus mode. in the space of a post. I laughed at the bold. He called the slip 'the impression of extra information' but now when he starts to Bus Kush it is a scumslip. His next post. Condemed with no alternative. Almost like he was looking for an out and couldn't find one and thus bussed. This next post is scummy as shit. He has 3 scum reads but won't reveal them. Aside from his OMGUS of Z - Boson. OK. this is getting Long. So this can end most of the association stuff and behaviour around Kush. The next part looks at his reluctance to be scum by association before kush flips red. And before someone says 'oh it was obvious kush was red' Yeah it really was. Except Debears' behaviour does not line up with that at all + Show Spoiler + On October 02 2012 14:15 DarthPunk wrote: Part II: Scum by association This looks at how debears is desperate to dispel an association with kush immediately, before he even flips. Wants to defend himself immediately. Kush Has not flipped. And in his next post states that Kush could still be town. Why would a townie that clearly wasn't positive of the outcome of the flip be so eager to dispel any association cases. Unless he is scum knows and knows how kush will flip and is I am not quoting the entire post in this next part because it is massive and has formatting errors. Go back and read it though. He is desperate to defend himself from the association with kush. Despite kush not flipping, and despite Debears stating in that very post that kush could flip town. And that I would have wasted a day lynching him. The rest is OMGUS against Z- boson. Back to soft defending kush and discredditing myself etc. Despite calling kush scum earlier. But once again if he is that uncertain why does he try so hard to discredit any association between his behaviour around kush? Because he is aware of the situation. He knows kush will flip red and he knows he is in the shit. Let me tell you right now. Scum were 100% not expecting to get caught day one. Therefore they are very likely to have been caught out during this time. Debears reeks of scumminess. His turn around from soft defense to over eager attack in his vote post looks like a bus to me. The fact that he naturally soft defends kush again whilst defending himself is worth considering as is his 'slip' on djodref. Also note the difference in his play post kush flip. He starts tunnelling Alsn super hard. This is after stating several times the previous day how bad it was that I tunnelled Kush. ##Unvote ##Vote: Debears These have some things I agree and disagree with. There are some things I'd like to add. First off, debears has a very discrediting tone this game. He's mentioned "Your argument is bad", "You have confirmation bias", "You OMGUS-ed", "You are retarded", etc. etc. A bunch of times. He does not do this as scum in XVII, or does it much less. However, this meta holds little weight because in this game he's being tunneled into oblivion, unlike the other game. So how do we proceed? That will depend on who thinks what here. My personal opinion is that he's taking that "discrediting" road one too many times, which is a scummy trait. For example: Insisting that my case was OMGUS. Even my initial FOS regarding the whole SDM thing was not OMGUS, as I had justified it. Even so, he continues, throughout the game, to do the same thing. One additional thing to note is especially his latest discrediting quote, saying how the whole "mod-warning" thing I had was retarded. If I were town in his situation I'd agree that it came off as a bit suspicious and used the fact that they both had just been scum and that could have perfectly explained kush's "scum team 4 lyfe" remark. These "behavioral" issues are difficult to do a decent analysis of why that would be scummy instead of townie, so make your own conclusions. Think what you would have done as townie, and vote accordingly. In retrospect, he has defended himself in day 2 much better than he did in day one. However, the big difference is, in day 2 I'd given him the Alsn case to fall back on. Up until then, he was trying to peg me as scum. Once my case had been made, he complimented on it, and acknowledged it in this very interesting post: + Show Spoiler + On October 01 2012 05:06 debears wrote: So now it's time for my case on Alsn. Z-Bo has posted a good case. Now, I want to add onto a key element that I feel Z-bo missed: Alsn's scumhunting (or lack thereof). Alsn's first post before the game. Everyone, if you do not know the depth of Alsn's focus and intelligence (or at least what it seems like to me) and stubborness, look at his posts from pregame and the obs qt from last game. If he was town, I would be sure that he would put his skills to work and actually attempt to be nked. Alright, on to the posts since the start of the game. + Show Spoiler + On September 28 2012 17:56 Alsn wrote: Wow, upon reading the thread I realise that kush has been following the exact pattern I just now specified to be the way not to play if he wanted to absolve himself in my eyes. In fact, I could go back to my initial posts to him in NMMXXV saying almost the exact same thing. As such, I think I have no choice but to cast a: FoS kushm4sta kush, in order for me to let up, I want you to stop it with your ridiculous knee-jerk play and actually point out why you think other people are scummy as opposed to why you yourself is so obviously town. While the following idiom is quite ironic in a forum game, actions speak louder than words and you defending yourself is just that, meaningless words. Start proving to everyone that you are concerned with finding scum instead of worrying about your silly streak. That being said, I think everyone else is jumping the gun here, kush is an extremely easy target to pick on, especially since he almost never seems to think before he posts. The scumslip that Darth and others pointed out can definitely be seen as damning. However, I am not inclined to agree with the following post from Darth: This last part seems to overly simplify the matter to me. The only reason? I myself can see a few reasons, but I would like kush to reply himself before I comment further as I don't want to give him an easy out. I can state for the record that unless kush shapes up considerably, I'm all in favour of lynching him. Simply because him playing like his normal self would be a liability for town later on due to his inclination to just defend himself over hunting scum. However, I definitely want to give him the benefit of the doubt and allow him to actually try and show that he has town's best interest in mind. So until then, while I definitely would like everyone to share their reads on kush so far, that is not enough for D1. We need to start exploring different possibilities because if we decide to lynch kush and he flips green, spending all of D1 talking about him will put us back at square one minus two townies. I'll make another post within an hour or two on another topic as I think I've made myself perfectly clear on where I stand on kush, but right now I need breakfast. His point is fair and I agreed upon it. Everyone focusing on one person day 1 is usually not good. However, his later actions did not really follow this statement. His cases against Z-Bo and DP were the only scumhunting during d1. His initial problem with Z-Bo was a point already addressed by me in terms of the post at SDM. This post in itself isn't a big deal. However, he continues to keep the argument the same and becomes stuck on the idea. + Show Spoiler + On September 28 2012 21:31 Alsn wrote: Uh, what? For what? I admit I haven't looked all that closely on debears posting since I mostly looked at his filter to try and figure out what Z-BosoN was referring to, but as far as I can see he has done three things so far, he has pointed out that he doesn't agree with your tunneling of kush. I find that a reasonable thing to say, although not overwhelmingly useful other than as a reminder to you that there are other players in this game(which you have obviously noted by now since you are questioning me!) His other two arguments of note are against Z-BosoN which is basically the conversation line which I base my case upon, as well as calling out Djodref as someone who posts a lot but says little. The latter also seems perfectly reasonable from where I'm standing and as you must have noticed, I'm against Z-BosoN on the subject of the former. This post was addressed to DP. Yet again, you are really just repeating points and just agreeing with my views on the matter and defending me. + Show Spoiler + On September 29 2012 00:24 Alsn wrote: Given the evidence so far no, I don't, and frankly I don't see why that's so hard to believe. Given his history, it should be easy to see for anyone that while he has different town and scum metas(as pointed out by Hapahauli in the obs QT of NMMXVII), his comments so far this game is entirely in line with the way he usually posts during D1. Basically just writing up whatever is on his mind. That to me doesn't really increase or decrease the chances of him flipping either way(but the setup of the game says all else being equal, 75% of the players are green, 25% are scum) Yes, you called him out for good reason because his arguments(like so many times before this game) make little to no sense. But right now the only thing I really agree actually points to him being scum is what you call his scum slip. I just do not agree with you of just how damning that statement is. The first thing that sprang to mind when I saw you quoting that was simply that townie was an odd word to use, why not use player? But a confirmed scum slip? Come on, it's not like he said something that is entirely outside the realm of possibility for a town player to say. "Townie" wouldn't be the word I'd use, but I just can't see it as that obvious a scum slip. I'll accept that you are not necessarily wrong for thinking so however. Given that there are no other developments then sure, I'll admit that there's at least a higher chance of kush being scum than a random lurker being scum. But I would really like it if we could at least try to get better odds than that. Best case scenario for me would be actually having everyone talk, present cases and opinions and if no one else presents themselves as scummy, then and only then will I roll the dice on kush. Remember, there are 3 scum, not only one. Who knows, if he's scum as you say, he might look even scummier by lynch time. The case being what it is with kush, I can see now that what you were doing wasn't tunneling per se. However, I think you are doing the very thing you are accusing me of doing where you say debears was trying to "shut down" the case against kush. Like I've said several times now, that's not at all how I interpreted it, only that we shouldn't limit ourselves to a single discussion topic which at the time I felt debears was trying to suggest. Something that I happen to agree with. This statement makes little sense to me. You say you were not tunneling, which I can now appreciate as probably true, but up until recently was not clear at all to me(and probably not to anyone else either). You had made quite a lot of posts in a row with kush as the only topic, as well as trying to convince others in the thread that he absolutely, 100%, no doubt whatsoever must be scum. I didn't find it unreasonable that someone would point that fact out to you. My "premise" was simply that if I find an argument reasonable, someone else trying to poke holes in that argument might not have the same motivations as myself, thus they are suspicious. The bolded line is ridiculous however, especially in context with the sentence before it. What makes you so sure that we would have "a lot of info to go off" in the case of everyone tunneling kush and us lynching him? My A) vs. B) scenario that you are referring to was dependent on the hypothetical scenario of everyone tunneling kush(which I already explained seemed to be where things were going at the time). I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you misunderstood what I was trying to say instead of deliberately using a red herring to try and discredit me. With that in mind, based on your willingness to put yourself out there, I have a slight town read on you. Looking at this post, let's keep in mind what Alsn has done at this point. He has defended me. He has defended Kush, playing off scumslip. His only scumhunt cases are against darth and z-bo. His case against darth is based off darth's hard tunneling of kush. His case on z-bo is Z-bo's post on SDM and Z-Bo's post on me. Also, look at how he brings up "Everyone bring up a case and we'll look for other scummy people". Yet, he has failed to actually do the same. He now thinks Darth is town by suddenly changing his mind on the tunneling issue, even though he believes tunneling isn't good. " I would like you to explain what's so amazingly pro-town about tunneling kush from the very beginning. I find the risks of that approach to be very high from a town perspective." Now, I would like to move on to another topic with Alsn. He promises scumhunting and big posts. He wants everyone to make good cases about people other than kush. Yet, he doesn't actually follow through. + Show Spoiler + On September 29 2012 17:40 Alsn wrote: Just now caught up and saw this post. Really? I Said I'd be back about 12 hours before lynch, I've been reading the thread for an hour which makes that statement pretty much exactly right. But your own comment on the other hand is from before I even said I'd be waking up and checking the thread. You are not making yourself look any better than when I first called you out for grasping at straws. Will be posting some pretty substantial posts(I suspect, based on what I've read so far) within the next couple of hours. Here, he promises substantial posts. These are the next three posts. + Show Spoiler + On September 29 2012 18:17 Alsn wrote: First, I'd like to start things with stating so far D1 has pretty much lived up to my exact nightmare scenario that I speculated about when arguing with DP yesterday. Everyone is voting kush with only very little discussion about any other topic(mainly, the debears-boson exchange). Looking at the vote count, the last official count says 7, and now corrosion added his vote for a total of 8. With myself that would be 9, the exact number of town in this game. From my point of view, unless kushm4sta, Djodref and Lesrah are the 3 scum, there are scum pushing this lynch. Given that, I'm really starting to dislike this lynch. I agree however that kush has been mostly concerned with defending himself against perceived injustice rather than actually trying to hunt scum, this still does not convince me that he is scum. Lynching scum with an overwhelming majority D1 just seems like way too improbably. Sure, if we had to fight tooth and nail to get 7 votes, I might buy it, but that's not the case. It seems to me there must be scum sheeping onto this lynch. Like I've stated before I can go along with the kush lynch, but I'd rather try and lynch my top scum read at this point and with the current developments, I see a kush lynch more as a last resort than my main scum read. Unfortunately, this argument is only available to people who have yet to vote and are town, as well as to scum since other than myself only scum are aware of my alignment. For everyone else, the "unless a, b and c are scum" argument will include me. My argument is at least enough to convince myself, so I'll be scouring the thread for the next couple of hours to see if my "gut scum reads" so far have any merit and if so push that/those case(s) instead. If it turns out that they are going nowhere, I will vote kush. But I still feel we have enough time to at least have a discussion on the topic of "just wtf is going on here?!". This post is odd. His main points are 1)There are scum voting for kush (duh) 2) He doesn't like the kush lynch and 3) He is going to try to lynch his top scum read and "scour the thread" for others. There is nothing of substance in this post. He's just stating the obvious and promising more scumhunting. + Show Spoiler + On September 29 2012 18:28 Alsn wrote: A quick addendum, I'm aware that scum pushing the lynch does not exonerate kush since they could be bussing him. However, given the assumption that kush is scum and there are active scum among the voters, I just find it more likely that they would try and find another solution than bussing, especially since it's D1. That's my main reason for not being convinced that kush is scum. The next post is nothing better. Nothing substantial. Just speculation on what the scum would do. + Show Spoiler + On September 29 2012 18:29 Alsn wrote: Right, I missed that, thanks for pointing it out. That just confirms it though, from my point of view there are scum pushing for his lynch. For everyone else out there, unless me, Lesrah and kush are the scumteam, there are scum among the voters. Yet again, he's repeating his points. Nothing substantial. His promise of something was not kept. Still no actual scumhunting. Ok. This post just repeats his earlier points. Now comes his change of opinion + Show Spoiler + On September 29 2012 21:15 Alsn wrote: I've been doing some soul searching and I'm starting to agree that it's not worth it to try and push any other cases right now. Mostly because my entire premise was that I was thinking it to be unlikely for kush to be scum. I realise that after trying to put into words why I think that is so, I have nothing other than the fact that I "feel" him to be town, which is a really stupid reason for absolving him. I thought I could back it up by saying he's been pressured to hard, there's no way he's responsible for not scum hunting. But in the end, I can't find a logical reason to forgive him if I exclude my own gut feeling from the equation. I think now that my best option is to hold on to whatever small reads I have(because while I have some suspicions, I don't think they are rock solid) until after the lynch is over. Because at least then, we will have more information. So for now, although my gut is screaming at me, I'll commit to voting for kush, mostly because most of what I said about BosoN has returned somewhat satisfactory answers, I really don't like the way a lot of people got away with not basically posting anything at all(I'm looking at you, Djodref, corrosion, Omniscient, RemedySC). I think that's probably what irks me the most, the thing I was most hoping would not happen, did happen. ##Vote: kushm4sta Ok a "change of heart" changes his views on kush and scumhunting. I can understand changing his view on kush. However, he had been adamant that people push cases on people other than kush all day. Yet, it wasn't worth it anymore. Then, he says in the same post he doesn't like how those 4 got away with not posting? Why didn't he call them out if he wanted to scumhunt so bad? Why is he leaving the job up to others and just calling out people he wants to be looked at? + Show Spoiler + On September 29 2012 21:28 Alsn wrote: By the way, just to clarify about my vote. I realised that my entire vote count argument falls apart if there's no compelling reason to believe kush to be town, and asking myself the following question kinda shocked me: "What has kush done for town?" I couldn't find an answer to that question, no matter how hard I looked. As such, I can't not vote for him. The wording in the last statement is weird. It implies that he was looking for reasons to not vote kush. + Show Spoiler + On September 29 2012 21:31 Alsn wrote: Seriously, I need a break from this as I'm feeling indecisive as shit at the moment while I woke up brimming with confidence that I would find some scum today. I'll be checking in on the thread all the way until lynch, so I'll reply if you need me to, but I don't think I'll be making any monster posts. Here he admits he did not scumhunt. He says he is indecisive. + Show Spoiler + On September 30 2012 04:39 Alsn wrote: I actually find some of your arguments very compelling. I agree that his 180 on Djodref looks scummy, but I don't agree with your original argument that him making that case on both you and Djodref is inherently scummy just because the cases are similar. I however think that your pressuring has yielded fruit. I happen to agree that your initial feud with debears was on pretty shaky grounds, which is why I spoke out against you at that point. It may just have been me misinterpreting your tone/intentions, but nevertheless I feel most of the early-game arguments debears put forward were relatively sound, and you weren't necessarily in the right for attacking them. His responses do seem convoluted though. To be fair, I think his "scum slip"(the one where he all but proclaimed Djod town) is pretty much the exact same type of slip that kush committed. Basically, directly suggesting that he should pm marv could be seen as him knowing djod's alignment. But I think just as with the kush slip, it's definitely not 100%. It could be a typo, he could have just been lazy and not wanted to say marv/hapa, there could be many different reasons. Anything he says himself probably won't sway anyone though. I'm actually surprised there hasn't been more of an outcry about it. So to sum up, I disagree that debears is clearly wrong for saying that your initial case was weak, however, I feel like he has some pretty scummy explanations for some of his actions, particularly wrt Djodref. I think your case has gone from pretty nit picky to a rather strong case. So I think I'll withdraw my FoS on you, your explanation for your behaviour concerning SDM earlier was satisfactory, and I will probably have to go through your case against him at least one more time before I can be sure, but it seems to be pretty solid to me. I would like to see some input from the less active players with regards to the entire debears/boson debate. Because currently I'm having pretty much null reads on all of the following: Omniscient, RemedySC, Corrosion, Djodref(someone else remind me if there's anyone I've missed please). A few of them have posted slightly scummy or slightly town, but either way it's very difficult for me to make up my mind one way or the other right now. If we assume that kush wasn't trolling us with the "I'm red" part, then we have quite some time before we ever need to worry about mylo/lylo, but I'd still like for us to get there without either being forced to lynch 4 null-reading lurkers, or to have them left in the game at that stage. Here is another worthless post. His whole point is "Z-bo's case may have validity". Then he gives us some reads, except they are 4 null reads. No scum hunting. Not any actual contribution. + Show Spoiler + On September 30 2012 19:18 Alsn wrote: Now you're just misunderstanding me, I had a gut scum read on you due to me feeling unjustifiably attacked. I didn't want to say that out loud while I was questioning you at the time. But like I explained when I examined your filter as well as when you replied to me, things became much clearer and thus I re-evaluated you. Ah finally, he actually states a scum read. However, earlier he said he wanted to push a lynch for a top scum read. He didn't do that. A FOS isn't pushing a lynch. He never took a decisive "you're scum" stance day 1. Alsn's whole day 1 was centered on kush being town, and mediating the conflict between me and Z-Bo. Where was the scumhunting? Where was the real contribution that he promised? -----after just reading Alsn's big post---------- @Alsn However, 1) My posting to defend myself day 1 was because I thought (and still do) that most of Z-Boson's case is dumb and confirmation bias (which you agree with me about according to your post. 2) I chose Z-Boson because they way he FOS'd me back was OMGUS to me. Djo is a noob. Z-Boson isn't. Z-Boson would know better to first, calll out a player for no reason early on and overstate that player's views. And two, FOS me with shitty reasoning. 3) My main problem with Z-Boson is that he was looking only at mafia motivations in his post (confirmation bias if he is town, if he is scum, trying to frame someone). Also, his association case about modwarnings was flat out unreasonable and follows WIFOM. Also, he was trying way too hard to lobby his case against me. It seems the only real part of his argument that everyone agrees with is the pm marv post I addressed to Djo, which I have done my best to explain. I don't see his case as strong. Yet, he feels its the mother of all cases, calling it a "shitbomb" on me earlier. How can a townie be so sure of himself besides confirmation bias? That said, Z-Boson has made a case against you which I agree with. He came off more reasonable today with the questions he asked me. For that, I do not have such a strong stance on him at this moment. However, you seem a little bit too obsessed with our argument. Your post is in essence a giant summary of what happened. You state a scumread on me, which is improvement. However, I don't feel your scumhunting is original. Your reasoning for FOS on me is problematic. I believe I have already been called out for posting defensively. Also if "This all leads me to believe Z-BosoN is suffering from massive confirmation bias", as I stated, why wouldn't I defend myself extensively? I have been called out by Z-Bo for inconsistency. Read above this for some reasoning on choosing one over the other. And finally, you don't see my cases pointing out Z-Boson as scummy, yet you agree my cases say reasonable things? "Here he addresses debears final post, a post which like I just pointed out says reasonable things." Just because you think someone's case about someone else being scum isn't correct, if the case is reasonable, that shouldn't make you think that the accuser is scum That reasoning doesn't make sense, based on your own conclusions. He still makes it a point to say my case is dumb, confirmation biased, etc. Goes back on my first FoS on him, when at this instance I had already made myself clear, on the SDM thing. Anyways, he then says this very interesting comment on my second post on Alsn: + Show Spoiler + On October 01 2012 15:00 debears wrote: I made extensive cases against corrosion and alsn. Z-Bo's most recent case against alsn was stuff I already pointed out. Look at my filter When, as you yourselves can compare, my case goes a lot into mafia-mentality and why Alsn's posts would make sense with him coming from a mafia perspective. This is another one of those things that are interpretative, and mine is that this post came off highly as a "give me some town cred" one. I don't see why a townie debears would make it a point to go ahead and say this. Another point here to draw your own conclusions. His making a lot of cases and defenses of the cases against him indicate a high level of activity. It does not make him town, as he seems to feel, but it does not make him "scum wanting to look town based on what I proposed" like DarthPunk suggested, it's a null tell. Why he is a better lynch choice Summing it up, he's shown quite a bit of mafia mentality, as I've outlined above in some of the instances. He has very weird interactions with a now-confirmed scum kush, as I've outlined on the initial day 1 case, but not with enough weight. Whether he's a better candidate will be augmented depending on how you interpret his behavior. Of course I've missed a lot of points, and of course some things here are likely biased. I've done as best I could as to try to convince you all of why both of them would be scum. Like hell I'm going to proof read this. What I'm jheavily bothered with, atm, is how me and DP are the only ones actively trying to sort this out. A lot of the lesser content posters have been quite inactive regarding the cases on Alsn and debears, and their own defenses. I will deal with this later, but for now, honor this post and read every fucking thing I've written. DON'T skip the spoilered parts, as they also have key info regarding my views and my opinions. Also, I will unvote here, because I don't want people to sheep. I have formed my opinion already on who I want lynched, and will see what the general town feel is tomorrow, when I come back. May the best scum prevail! ##Unvote | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
On October 02 2012 15:49 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: Is this guy famous or something? Which games has he been playing in? infamous, I'd say. Read the first few posts from Liquid City mafia =p Thanks for catching up SS. Read my latest posts and see if you maintain your opinion. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
Once again, Mafia screwing over my academic life, I really have to control my time management. I'll just stick around discussing with whoever may be online atm. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
On October 02 2012 16:21 Shady Sands wrote: So at this point I have a moderate scum read on Alsn and strong town read on Darthpunk. I'm still not sold on Debears yet. Every time people push him as a lynch and everyone just nods along and agrees (this is based on a cursory ready through 30+ pages of filter late at night, so pardon me if I'm totally wrong about this), I get a wierd feeling in the pit of my stomach. Why? Because scum is already down one, there is almost zero chance they'd accede easily to a second consecutive bus. So if everyone is nodding along on Debears, and scum isn't going to roll over and bus again, then, WIFOM as this reasoning is, it doesn't seem reasonable that Debears should be scum. Alsn, however, feels scummy to me. Why?
All four points are not damning guilt in and of themselves. But combined, they point a pretty compelling picture of a scum Alsn. Right now he's my strongest read and as such ##Vote Alsn However, he's only a moderate scumread. Depending on what happens between now and when I check in the thread in about 16 or 17 hours, I might change my mind. This would be true, except that only 4 out of 12 people have agreed on debears looking scummy (now 3). It still is a lot more than alsn though, so that's definitely a thought. What do you think of the RSC/Omniscient duo? Also, I don't understand if you are replacing Lesh or corrosion, you say one thing, mod says another.. And lynch happens in less than 12 hours.... 15-17 hours = nighttime. Hopefully you can check in before then. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
| ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + On October 02 2012 07:43 Stutters695 wrote: I'm really suspicious of Alsn. Again red is for emphasis inside of the spoilers. His second post of the game he puts a FoS on Kush. + Show Spoiler [FoS on Kushm4sta] + On September 28 2012 17:56 Alsn wrote: Wow, upon reading the thread I realise that kush has been following the exact pattern I just now specified to be the way not to play if he wanted to absolve himself in my eyes. In fact, I could go back to my initial posts to him in NMMXXV saying almost the exact same thing. As such, I think I have no choice but to cast a: FoS kushm4sta kush, in order for me to let up, I want you to stop it with your ridiculous knee-jerk play and actually point out why you think other people are scummy as opposed to why you yourself is so obviously town. While the following idiom is quite ironic in a forum game, actions speak louder than words and you defending yourself is just that, meaningless words. Start proving to everyone that you are concerned with finding scum instead of worrying about your silly streak. That being said, I think everyone else is jumping the gun here, kush is an extremely easy target to pick on, especially since he almost never seems to think before he posts. The scumslip that Darth and others pointed out can definitely be seen as damning. However, I am not inclined to agree with the following post from Darth: This last part seems to overly simplify the matter to me. The only reason? I myself can see a few reasons, but I would like kush to reply himself before I comment further as I don't want to give him an easy out. I can state for the record that unless kush shapes up considerably, I'm all in favour of lynching him. Simply because him playing like his normal self would be a liability for town later on due to his inclination to just defend himself over hunting scum. However, I definitely want to give him the benefit of the doubt and allow him to actually try and show that he has town's best interest in mind. So until then, while I definitely would like everyone to share their reads on kush so far, that is not enough for D1. We need to start exploring different possibilities because if we decide to lynch kush and he flips green, spending all of D1 talking about him will put us back at square one minus two townies. I'll make another post within an hour or two on another topic as I think I've made myself perfectly clear on where I stand on kush, but right now I need breakfast. The most important thing to focus on from this is even when he FoSes Kush he states that he thinks everyone is jumping the gun, but if Kush doesn't shape up his posting he is ok with lynching him. This post and the next one are what made me go WTF. So now that the game has dragged on and Kush's play has deteriorated, what happened to "unless kush shapes up considerably, I'm all in favour of lynching him." ? You also say you'd rather try and lynch your top scumread (first red highlight) but up until this post you haven't posted a single scum read. The best you've done is questioned Z-Boson until you dropped it over time. Why are you suggesting we should have lynched someone else without posting a case or even who you are suspicious of? Additionally who were those "gut scum reads" you mentioned? Going forward to where you + Show Spoiler [Voting for Kushm4sta] + On September 29 2012 21:15 Alsn wrote: I've been doing some soul searching and I'm starting to agree that it's not worth it to try and push any other cases right now. Mostly because my entire premise was that I was thinking it to be unlikely for kush to be scum. I realise that after trying to put into words why I think that is so, I have nothing other than the fact that I "feel" him to be town, which is a really stupid reason for absolving him. I thought I could back it up by saying he's been pressured to hard, there's no way he's responsible for not scum hunting. But in the end, I can't find a logical reason to forgive him if I exclude my own gut feeling from the equation. I think now that my best option is to hold on to whatever small reads I have(because while I have some suspicions, I don't think they are rock solid) until after the lynch is over. Because at least then, we will have more information. So for now, although my gut is screaming at me, I'll commit to voting for kush, mostly because most of what I said about BosoN has returned somewhat satisfactory answers, I really don't like the way a lot of people got away with not basically posting anything at all(I'm looking at you, Djodref, corrosion, Omniscient, RemedySC). I think that's probably what irks me the most, the thing I was most hoping would not happen, did happen. ##Vote: kushm4sta Now I'm a little confused with his logic. With his vote the lynch is essentially finished (if scum wanted to last minute switch they'd be giving themselves away and it would be GG) but instead of sharing any of his reads (his gut feelings or his top scumread) he decides he should wait til after the lynch to share any "reads". Doesn't this directly go against his "we need to start exploring different possibilities"? He even listed four lurkers he could have pressured them throughout the day, but instead he argued with DP about Kush (whom we shouldn't focus entirely on according to Alsn). His whole day 1 posting is scummy as hell to me and reeks of someone who tried to help defend Kush before Kush melted down and tried to retroactively justify this defense through maintaining that stance. His case on debears is a good contribution (at first glance, I haven't read it in context of the thread yet) but I want to see how he explains his contradictions and false promises from day 1. He's not a realistic lynch choice for today, but until he can actually be more useful ##FoS Stutters | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
I'm glad most of the town agrees with what I figured as I was making my wall of text post. Alsn's play is extremely scummy this game. I still would have preferred a debears lynch, but when I took the time to read his meta from his previous town game, it just felt like a completely different person. I just can't view Alsn being town. He was inconsistent as fuck, his meta is absurdly off, and some of his gameplay is just way too scum-oriented. I will be very, very impressed if he actually turns up town. That being said, much to debear's delight ##Vote Alsn | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
Thanks for sticking through Alsn, and hope that in the future you can get clearer reads. In LVII I was exactly like you, I spent a ton of time reading and trying to figure out who was scum and who wasn't, and ended it up with nothing. This game I did the same thing, but I managed to have clearer reads - yet still wrong one(s). Goes to show we all have a lot to improve. Saving the rest for post-game. It sucks that we got the second gift-wrapped scum this game. Feels completely without merit. Ok, it is likely that we have a jailkeeper or a roleblocker. Stop debears cold and see if that still results in a NK. I don't want the risk of spending the rest of day 3 going for a false lead. Debears aside, my top scum-reads are Omniscient and Stutters. Too passive, too useless, too sheepy. RemedySC I've yet to go through the filter. Djo seems cute and townie, Shady Sands is too quiet for someone coming off a naturally suspicious-looking person. All this is off the top of my head, like I said, I still have some filters to look through. Godamnit I'm sad =[ | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
Anyways, I sure hope debears is scum. I'm going to feel very silly if both of them end up being town. Don't disappear guys | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
I'm @ school so its hard to be useful atm, but game is leaning heavily in our favor. Like I said, rb/jail debears and we should be fine. Its a high possibility that the last scum is godfather, and that would make things a bit difficult. Medic would be wise to save me, dp or sdm. I just want the info that debears is/isnt scum! | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
On October 03 2012 23:59 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: I was starting to get a town vibe from Djo but Shady, Remedy, Omni and Djo all needs to be looked into in detail. I'm having a sneaking suspicion that Omni won't be the only one who'll come off as scummy. come off as scummy I'm sure a lot of people will. Alsn, for example, did. We just gotta learn to differentiate them from townie scummy and scummy scummy | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
On October 04 2012 00:20 DarthPunk wrote: Dude he was one part of the driving force behind the kush lynch. He along with SDM were the ones to resurrect it after I gave it up as a lost hope. Also he is conforming to his town meta with his Drop posts into afk. Meh it is possible that he is scum but I find it highly unlikely. Djo and shady seems scumm as hell to me. If I survive I will make a case on them. I know what I am looking at. I would do it now but I left it to too late and it is 1 am and I have uni tomorrow ^_^ So please read their filters critically. Of course Roleblock whoever, but we don't know if we have a role blocker so we should not rely on it. Anyway. Follow SDM. That is my call if I die and you feel that you must sheep. Like I said, I wouldn't be quick to dismiss him. But if you read his kush arguments, it's also pretty much nothing new. There is such a thing as bussing, you know. The reason why I think this makes SDM town but not stutters is that SDM added new meta-related arguments, which is totally hardcore to do if he's a bussing scum, which I don't think is what happened. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
| ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
On October 04 2012 00:30 DarthPunk wrote: I seriously doubt that scum would have bussed when the case was dead in the water. DAY ONE. and been the very first to do so. Like I said not 100% but certainly not a leading candidate. or even close to being one. As far as I recall, I don't think stutters brought the case out of the water. I agree that he wouldn't make a good d3 lynch candidate, but claiming him town? No way. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
| ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
Do you know if it was medic or JK? | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
On October 04 2012 00:39 DarthPunk wrote: I just went back and reread the thread around this time. (like you could have ^_^) And Stutters is town guys. He actually did bring the case back. It was dead until stutters made 2 lengthy posts against Kush. this is before SDM's posts on kush's meta. He was also the first vote behind me. And made his vote when there were ZERO votes on kush. and against the prevailing sentiment of the thread at the time. He made his case on Kush before you had even FoS'd kush. He is a very very strong town read. along with SDM. Like I said, I'm on my cell phone In that case, then I'll have to agree that it does make him look town. So, unless someone has made some spectacular play as scum (which I doubt, more on that later) We have town reads on: SDM, DP, me, and Stutters That only leaves Shady, debears, RSC, Omni, Djodref. If we can guarantee that, and if debears isn't scum, we are in great shape Like someone above said, we should not get overconfident (as I was sad to learn in XXIV) but still | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
if you don't get blocked there is no jk (or he's very naive) the only instance he should claim is if it wins us the game, period. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
| ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
Scum got pretty ballsy there. He was shot for being obviously the most confirmed townie there is. Thankfully he wasn't really blue. I'll assume we don't have one and there naught but a medic this game. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
| ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
##Unvote ##Vote Omniscient4983 You have a case against you. Defend yourself, and please let us know who you think is a good lynch. If we straight up vote here, and debears ends up being town, this is going to be a wasted day. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
On October 04 2012 07:16 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: Uh, not sure what just happened. There are a few obvious options but I don't know if speculating will help us. One thing is for sure though, if anyone got roleblocked this is most certainly the time to claim. Boson, looking at the role list there is only JK and scum roleblocker. What are you talking about? | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
| ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
On October 03 2012 20:57 RemedySC wrote: @ Omni Alsn was a pretty hot topic during D2, yet you don't add much to the discussion. It looks like you are distancing yourself from a possible Alsn lynch. Here for example. You say Alsn is still pretty null / slightly scum after previewing some cases against him. Why don't you bring those up and try to get more information out of Alsn. If he is a hot topic and a likely lynch candidate, shouldn't you be looking into that a bit more? Here you say you have a slight scum read on Alsn. You don't give any reasons. There has been almost no information out of you that has to do with Alsn. He is on the verge of being lynched, and you seem to distance yourself from him. Lastly, you promise a case against Alsn, yet it never happens. Conclusion - You are mafia distancing yourself from a possible Alsn lynch. You know he is going to flip town. This is pretty good actually. I've went against Alsn full-force and all he's provided us is a "meh I think he's scum" | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
| ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
What is your take of this: On October 02 2012 07:40 Omniscient4983 wrote: @RemedySC I'm sure a few people have mentioned this about Corrosion: the fact that he "attacked" Darth, or, as someone said, "cast a scummy shadow" on him. At this point, he doesn't totally trust Darth because it's d1, and Kush isn't obvious scum yet. Personally, it seems like he is trying to be objective about the issue at hand. He points out a totally plausible case. Later, he mentions that Kush is indeed suspicious but doesn't want to focus on one person like Darth is. I don't see it as scum-motivation or an attack on Darth. I see it as common sense. As for my post saying that his second reason for voting Kush was ridiculous: it was. It has nothing to do with Kush. He basically says that it would be better to pull a name out of a hat and lynch them than have a no-lynch. However, I think he's coming off as genuinely newbie-town. He's trying to contribute. I also find this post to be very town-like. He likes the feedback he is getting. If he were scum, he likely would have gotten very defensive about these points in efforts to exonerate himself. He admits faults; something I think scum would have a hard time doing. That is just, in brief, why i have a slight-town read on Corrosion. Nothing decisive as of yet. Unfortunately, he says he won't be around to post much more, and can't be sure on my read of him if he ceases to post. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
Also, Omni assumed corrosion townie, and actually made a half-assed case against RSC based on something RSC did not say. RSC didn't like corrosion's reason to vote for kush, not that he's attacking corrosion for voting kush, plus corrosion's weirdness regarding the lynch. Of course, bad case != scum, but why the hell is he saying corrosion is town? If you look through corrosion's filter, he looks pretty damn scummy. RSC later pressured him because of this, and he felt pressured enough to make a full townie case on corrosion, that pretty much includes: "corrosion said nice case! scum don't like saying those things!". I'm actually considering him for real as a day3 lynch. On September 30 2012 07:21 Omniscient4983 wrote: I've been reading through RemedySC's filter. I found his last post in particular a bit odd. + Show Spoiler + On September 29 2012 21:59 corrosion wrote: Let me just state the reasons that my vote is on Kush right now: I'm sorry, but I don't believe these are reasons a town would choose to make a vote. On September 29 2012 21:59 corrosion wrote: 1) I think his explanation of the slip was poor. If he had given a good explanation, I might have believed him. So the scum slip itself doesn't give you good reason to vote for him, but his poor defense does? A mafia making a scum slip could have the best explanation in the world. That doesn't exonerate them. On September 29 2012 21:59 corrosion wrote: 2) I've been thinking about who would benefit if the result is a no-lynch. I'm thinking mafia is likely to benefit the most from a no-lynch. So your second reason isn't even something that Kush has done. Wouldn't you also say that mafia would benefit from a mis-lynch more than from a no-lynch? Could you elaborate more on the bolded part, because you give no explanation as to how a mafia would benefit more from a no-lynch. On September 29 2012 21:59 corrosion wrote: Right now, I think that there's more than a 25 % chance that Kush is scum. Therefore, I'm voting for him. I'm not sure if any of these points are original. I'm having trouble keeping up with the thread, because I tend to get hanged up in details. You would think a town would want to be more than 25% sure the person they are voting for is scum. You don't even have any cases made against kush. No questions asked. Very vague reasons given... I find it odd that RSC was attacking Corrosion for voting Kush. At this point in the game, RSC had already cast his vote for Kush, and his best reason was: RSC doesn't really have much motivation for voting Kush, other than the fact that he's disruptive to the gameplay environment. Yet, he picks apart Corrosion for voting him. I don't understand why he'd attack Corrosion's "poor reasons" at all. Take a look at the bolded part of the spoiler. He condemns Corrosion for not having made any cases again Kush, yet RSC himself hasn't done anything of the sort. RSC hasn't posted anything in regards to Kush being scum besides the "creating a bad atmosphere" and "not posting in a pro-town manner" argument. RSC doesn't seem to be any more sure than Corrosion is about lynching Kush, yet he is condemning Corrosion for having bad reasoning. His post seems hypocritical to me. @RemedySC Why, if you had voted Kush with such little evidence, were you outing Corrosion for doing something similar? You almost seemed as if you were defending Kush for no reason in this post. I'm curious, and would like to hear your opinion on things. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
| ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
Later! | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
On October 04 2012 11:10 Djodref wrote: EBWOP:
Thing about this is that after alsn lynch I've lost faith in some of the arguments. -Association case with kush was stronger with Alsn. -His "scumslip" doesn't make sense as scum. It could have been a slip, which is what we are currently thinking, but I think him as scum would have been more careful about this, as he just came from being scum in XVII. Dunno, from what I've read in his filter, he does't seem to be that type of player to do that. -What reluctancy? He addressed most if not all the posts against him. -WIFOM bombs are weird, but they aren't a scum tell. He also used them a LOT less in his scum game. But like I said earlier, the games are under different circumstances. I'm starting to feel this way because of the Alsn incident. I thought the Alsn case to be 10x stronger than debears, and yet he still (somehow) managed to pop up town. Tomorrow I'll go over Omniscient's filter more carefully, but please seriously consider him a lynch. Also, Djodref, explain your town read on him. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
This only leaves SS and Omni, both players who attacked kush in a non-convincing manner early in day one and hopped on not too impressively on the Alsn wagon. I still have to read more carefully, but from my readings on my small-screened cell phone in class, It seems this way. SS and Omni seem like good lynch contenders for the second edition of battle for the noose What do you guys think? | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
On October 05 2012 00:43 debears wrote: Yeah. I looked at Djo's whole filter. I can post my findings if you want. I'd say they're inconclusive and rely on too much speculation. It's long If you think he's scum, post them, if not, don't clog up the thread | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
On October 05 2012 00:44 debears wrote: Right now, my order is most likely from most to least scummy. I'll take a quick glance at omni's filter. There isn't much to say on shady since he hasn't posted much since being replaced 1) Omni 2) Shady 3) Djo 4)Remedy Quick glance? Cmon... You can also look at corrosion filter and decide if he's newbie town or newbie mafia | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
| ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
| ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
On October 05 2012 01:13 Djodref wrote: @Z-BosoN I'm not supportive for a battle of the nose. It would be too easy for the last scum if he is not part of the two targets. How do you feel right now about your first battle of the noose ? A It's just a joke, I'm not doing that shit again. I was just saying that both our friends omni and ss look like decent lynch targets right now. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
| ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
he, however, also went for Alsn. I'm not too sure on him. For today, though, I;d lean town on him. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
On October 05 2012 01:42 Djodref wrote: I'm off to bed guys ! I don't blame the inactive people too much because this game is now 7 against one. Moreover I guess they trust the outcome of the game to the confirmed townies and active players. @the last scum Unless you think you can take all of us all down, I think you might better concede. Look at what your dead teammates have done to this thread with their quick deaths ! All the excitement is gone now :s hm, waht? Aren't you excited to find the last scum? I don't want this game to last more than tomorrow. Pretty sure the dudes in the obs qt don't either lol hmm.. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
Until some time before lynch time tomorrow, I'll post my findings, explaining why. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
Thanks for that post SS, it brought out some very interesting reactions. Of course, your case is laughable, as usual. Of course, as scum, I would want to switch my vote towards a townie, in favor of, let's see, another townie. I will definitely bother producing a fuckton of text just for that. Anyways, djodref managed to be even worse. Please reread your points against me, and think of how they could come from me as scum. Think about what your FOS accomplishes for town here today. I'll be accepting donations to make up for you making my eyes bleed. If Omni doesn't answer, it's either debears/djodref/SS imo. Pointless lynching a modkill. Will decide come tomorrow, I gotta go sleep. SDM, I'd love to know your input on who you'd rather lynch save Omni. I'm sleepy as hell and will go to sleep, but probably during class tomorrow I'm gonna make up my mind. RSC, same thing. Gnight! | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
| ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
A) shady's vote on me is too retarded to come from scum. B) shady's vote on me is retarded enough for him to be scum. Its not that I was wrong about alsn. Its that I want town cred. Actually the main reasons I'm less suspicious of debears I've already stated. I don't think his actions are necessarily scum-motivated. He also tried convincing kush to stop his antiques, and I don't see him doing that outside the QT to draw attention to himself. Its called reconsidering, not "I want to lynch a townie so as to not lynch a townie" shitfest you have going on. Going by experience, everytime I've seriously felt like punching you silly, you were town. That only leaves djodref. Expect some heat buddy. Your fos of me was hella weird. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
Gj knowing alsn is town btw. You must be smart. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
Gonnna try to reach some conclusion on djedref. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
He's mentioned he's played mafia elsewhere before, so he knows a thing or two. Hes playing the newbie card A lot (and I mean, a lot!), and he also makes posts generally scum don't like to make (ithis gives me towncred, right?) He distances himself on lehsrac, happy he will be lynched. As townie I'm definitely not happy he got modkilled, so this seems like an attempt at distancing himself. His interactions with kush are flimsy at best. He also safely nested on debears when debears had an infinite amount of pressure on him, and stayed there. If we assume debears is town, claiming him his top scumread is very very comfortable for scum. His latest fos on me was inconsistent as fuck, given his interactions with me all game long. He also thinks debears is scum, but doesn't push it, like, at all. I'm still deciding if I'm gonna go full-force on him when I get home, but please keep this in mind when reading his filter. RSC and SDM, I invoke you yet again to read his filter with this in mind. One more thing: if he was town and felt that way about me, why didn't he say so before? The only reasonable explanation is because he thought it would be antitown. If he thought it antitown, he would have argued so when commenting on shady sands on my case. This seems very reasonable for a townie to do, do you agree? | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
| ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
| ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
The other "argument" that my whole purpose for the battle of the noose was to give myself some towncred is utterly, utterly ridiculous. Never in a million years would I be able to fathom why I would go through all that effort to switch between townies when I can safely (and non-suspiciously) stand behind a scummy as hell looking debears lynch with another prominent townie like DP supporting me in a desperate attempt to gain some town cred (somehow..). Only so then I want to go 180 and claim debears townie when I could just as easily (you know, like djodref is) maintain him as a top suspect, especially after writing extensive cases on him. I also gave my reasoning on everything. Can't fucking believe I actually had to do this. Read my take on djodref if you will. I want to lynch him, will decide how much when I get home. Omni is a waste right now, I think, he's like to get modkilled. If he even dares to post anything this late, lynch him the next day. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
Also, sdm. Save my filter for the night. If you don't have enough time, decide between SS and djodref. This idea to bring up a ridiculous case on me in late day 3 when I'm not even a lynch choice is typical shady's dumb thinking, which mostly manifests itself when he is town. Also, doint ignore the fact he ignored your case. Anyways, I'm leaning slight town on him (plus, corrosion bothered writing a list before he left, as if he genuinely wants to help town. I feel if he were scum, he would just abandon this game and not care). omni seems scummy but is a wasteful lynch if he gets nodkilled, so that only leaves djodref, from my pov. Now that, from a skim of his filter, I can definitely see him as sxum, I want to lynch him atm. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
The thing about omni is I recall a post where I get the feeling he is genuinely going after kush. He claims him "a little suspicious", and still presses on later. His town case still feels weird as fuck, but ill grant that rsc asked him for it. Anyways, granted he is getting modkilled most likely, I'd change focus. I'm actually pretty damn confident now. Gah can't wait to get home!! | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
Go through djo's filter keeping what I've said in mind. Read it twice, one assuming he's town, one assuming he's scum. There's some shit there that doesn't add up. Especially the latest events. He's sheeped me hardcore and apparently agreed with pretty much everything I've said. Would you, as townie, find me suspicous to a point where you FOS me late day 3 based on half-assed arguments? 0 sense. No, you would probably take the "nah, no way he is scum.. Maybe he could? Nah...". Stance you are taking now, it usually comes as a shocker when someone uve assumed town gets painted like that. Do as I've said, keeping that and his "I an a newbie" stance hes taken all game. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
| ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
On September 28 2012 15:22 Djodref wrote: @DarthPunk For your information, i consider the comments of debears on my posts legitimate. Let me say that I even don't like them. Currently reading the guides and older game analysis. On September 29 2012 16:26 Djodref wrote: @debears so let me reformulate my question so we can understand each other better this time What is your read about me so far ?
You can use quantitative adjectives Fluffy, useless post. -snip- I understand why I'm on your null read list so far but I'd like to point out something to you and everybody. Here is the post where Kush has made his scumslip. + Show Spoiler + I'm actually proud of this one because he did it while answering one of my questions ^^ I think I deserve some town credit for that one even if I did buy kush's explanations about this slip later on. On September 30 2012 22:57 Djodref wrote: Hello guys ! I understand your suspicions but I'm just a town newbie with a lot of bad posts. I'll try my best to step up and post cases. If you don't mind, I'm going to build a case on debears before addressing your attacks because I feel I might screwing up myself more if I spend too much time defending your cases against me. But I can shortly explain my backflip on Kush. At the beginning of the game, I was not confident at all to nail a scum on day 1. I have even been called for it but, as a newbie, I didn't think I could have a correct read on someone (be it town or scum) and was really afraid of a mislynch. So, at that time, when Darth found Kush scumslip, I was not ready to believe it was so easy to find a scum. That's why I bought kush's explanations for his scumslip. After that I went out and slept and when I came back to the thread I found all the crazy posts from kush and also SDM case. I realized at this point that the slip was indeed a scum slip. Also I realized that not being confident is bad for town so I boost up my confidence. I called the scumteam kush/debears/corrosion and also was more and more sure of kush being red. On October 01 2012 00:14 Djodref wrote: One last thing, I was having a FoS on corrosion but I looked carefully at his thread and I have now a town read on him. His play looks similar to mine so I think he is just a newbie with bad posts as well. His case against Darth was poor but newbies have a lot of pressure to build original cases to establish their townieness. So I can see town motivation for it. He also admitted that the case could have been weak. Also he defended himself in an honest and clear way. So I understand now why people attacking him can be seen as suspicious. So far I know that debears and me have been on him. I think now that debears was hoping to push a mislynch on corrosion. unFoS: corrosion (Note, also gave out town read on corrosion). I mean, the guy is on a megaphone saying "I'm a newbie town!!". I find this to be ridiculous for a townie who wants to be taken seriously, which is also what he is passing himself up as. Note as well that he tries to distance himself from leshrac pretty hardcore: On October 03 2012 03:10 Djodref wrote: [/green][/green]Please modkill Lesrah hard ! I can understand the sentiment as a townie, but it makes more sense to come from a scum wanting to distance himself from another scum. This alone would have been useless, but look at how he also tries distancing himself from the idea that he is scum: On October 03 2012 11:30 Djodref wrote: Good morning everybody ! [joke] Please have a look at my last post about Lesrah. I've just corrected the formatting I think I deserve some town credit for this post. I also was the one asking the most for news about Lesrah in this game ! [/joke] On a serious note, I think it adds more weight to my explanations about kush state of mind and why he exploded. Could you imagine yourself win a game when you have two votes and serious scumslip against you, your partner has also one vote and the last one is just the lurkiest player you have ever seen (all this in the first 24h of the game) ? I'm almost sure he was genuinely cracking now. He was so proud of his unkilled, undefeated streak. That made him gamethrow and give away his partner. So, debears, how about you concede now ? This game is kinda lame anyway... @Alsn I'm sorry, I should not have been sheeping like this. Rest in peace ! This post is downright ridiculous. No one was giving a rat's ass about leshrac, and he brings it up as a joke that it should confirm his townieness. i.e. he just admitted that he was thinking that distancing himself from now confirmed scum is could possibly make him townier. Also, from this very post, note the difference in attitude. This raises a huge red flag. So far we've seen a highly undecisive, doubtful, and self-proclaimed confused newbie who lacks confidence. Now, suddenly, he's absolutely confident that debears is scum? This is a very sudden shift in attitute. Another prime example, from later in his filter: On October 03 2012 22:12 Djodref wrote: @SDM Last time I've checked Omni's filter, I had a slight town-read on him. I think he is a newbie town sheeping onto cases. To be honest, I think the same of the late corrosion, Remedy and Omni. I guess my filter has a little of the same flavor. So I easily sympathize with them and don't try to look more into it. I think we are too gullible and take the cases from more experienced players as the truth itself. After that we are just reading the thread with confirmation bias so it seems natural and ok to jump on bandwagons. But at the same time, we don't want to admit that we are just sheeping so it ends up looking very washy-washy. So when Omni says "I could reference Z-Boson case", I think he just has a strong town read on him and he is sheeping him. Your points are correct nevertheless and I hope they are going to push Omni to shape up and produce better posts. @Everyone This game isn't over yet ! Don't be all laid back and trust the outcome of the game to Darth, Z-BosoN and the more experienced and active players. There is still a little possibility for them to be scum and, if this is the case, then this is the doom of Newb-Lurky Ville ! As for me, I've spent too much time looking at poisonous wine glasses lately but I'll try to shape up tomorrow. Now he takes the tone of a confident townie. He also brings up town reads on omni, but then decides to sheep me yet again going against omni, despite his town read and his proclamation that people shouldn't sheep. Confidence gone again. I'm guessing he doesn't want to sheep too blindly, so he gives us yet another town read: On October 04 2012 19:27 Djodref wrote: This post is a prepared post to explain my slight town-read on Omni while he is on the spot at the beginning of D3. I'm not going to post it as soon as finish so it might be irrelevant depending on the events in the thread. But as everyone is sleeping or dead, I think it should be ok. Before reading my post, I recommend everyone to check his filter twice with the assumption that he is scum then the assumption that he is town. It's not hard nor long and you can forge your own opinion this way. Nevertheless, here is the points in his filter which speak for him:
But he really needs to post more so... Lot's of interesting in that post. Anyways, he goes on to reference the last scum more times later on: On October 05 2012 01:42 Djodref wrote: I'm off to bed guys ! I don't blame the inactive people too much because this game is now 7 against one. Moreover I guess they trust the outcome of the game to the confirmed townies and active players. @the last scum Unless you think you can take all of us all down, I think you might better concede. Look at what your dead teammates have done to this thread with their quick deaths ! All the excitement is gone now :s Quite weird indeed. It's like he is indirectly trying to convince us that there is no way he's scum. His approach on darth/kush He mentions this about corrosion: On September 30 2012 06:09 Djodref wrote: Hello guys ! I'm not heading to my room drunken once again and I feel really happy about kush's flip. I would like people to focus more on corrosion than debears because corrosion tired to cast a scummy shadow on Darth while deabears looks more genuine. Game is not over yet but I have to say GG When he himself, initially attempted acting against Darth, but quickly gave up: On September 28 2012 12:54 Djodref wrote: @DarthPunk Could you detail the reason you think Kush has never been NKed in the games he rolled town ? I found the quoted part a little illogical. On September 28 2012 13:27 Djodref wrote: It's a little illogical because you are saying that he looks scummy as town or as scum and yet you are able to make the difference between and scummy town Kush and a scummy scum Kush. I also read through the last Newbie Mini Mafia games and I must agree he didn't mention night kills so much when he was town iirc. I'm looking forward his explanations about his town read on you and I hope more people can give their opinion about your case on Kush. As I was also reading the game where you were mafia roleblocker and I saw your ability to flame with Shiaopi, I'm not buying it yet. So it's a pretty silly thing to use against somebody when you yourself hinted you aren't buying DP's legitimacy in posting. His stance on me I'm not gonna bother quoting everything, but he's sheeped every single case I've made. Every. Single. One. He's even sheeped my attitude regarding debears: On October 03 2012 13:57 Djodref wrote: @debears I'm not going to be stupid so I'm going to prepare for the eventuality of you being town. We are now 8 townies against one scum so I guess it's not going to be easy to find him if it's not you. By the way, who is the last scum on your opinion ? I'm going to look closely on the players who would have benefited from a hypothetical strategic bus of kush. Would you at least agree that it's very unlikely that kush wasn't strategically bussed if you are not scum ? @everyone Please somebody kill debears tonight, I don't want to lose my sanity into the dark shadows of WIFOM... On October 05 2012 15:20 Djodref wrote: @debears Ok, I'll get through it. Could you be as kind as giving me the links for his previous games ? Also, you are still on my scumlist, but I would like to say that the more you post, the less I want to lynch you. Isn't it strange ? It seems like he is hiding himself behind me, like an insecure little townie indeed. Now, I'm sure everyone has already felt like that towards a player, and what do you do as soon as someone throws dirt on someone you've been agreeing to all game long? FoS him? I don't think so. Even if you do have suspicions it's ridiculous to think that you'd switch views just like that. But he's not going all out against me, he's just, you know, slightly agreeing on a case where I forged evidence on debears to make him look scum, and then keeps himself @ debears being scum regardless. Doesn't want to go full 180 does he? I still have my doubts on debears, and my doubts on Omniscient. I was confident on djodref, but his whole "debears is scum I'm sure of it" theory is being consistent, but the problem I have is it's being consistent because it's just a general sheeping of my posts and sentiments. On October 05 2012 01:18 Djodref wrote: lol debears Let's keep our OMGUS war for later if you don't mind. I'm gonna prepare for this but I'm not gonna pollute the thread anymore with it. But rest assured, I have still some cards in my hands ^^ So I'm wondering what sort of cards you have. Let us see them. If you really think debears should be lynched, the time is now, and you better give some good strong arguments. I've also made a post defending some of the arguments against him, but I'll admit I'm still quite uneasy on debears. So please, show us your cards to get him lynched. Until then, jokes on you: Also, I encourage SDM, RSC, and Stutters (if you still exist), to review this case I've made, and review everything he's said on debears and see if you guys take it as genuine. I'm nowhere near 100% sure on my read, despite saying I was pretty confident earlier on. In my opinion he's a good lynch. ##Unvote ##Vote Djodref | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
| ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
[b]##Vote Omniscient4983[/g] This is ridiculous he's gonna get modkilled. I'd say go for debears. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
| ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
Debears was extremely flimsy here, he said he had a town read when he analyzed my meta, now he suddenly comes with this scum one when people are most undecisive. Don't be ridiculous. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
| ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
| ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
##Unvote ##Vote debears DON'T WASTE YOUR FUCKIN LYNCH ON A MODKILL | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
I WAS SHOT N1 AND I HAVE PROOF, I'M A VETERAN, DON'T DO THIS | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
| ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
1) Lynch debears because of everyfucking thing we've had against him till day 3. 2) don't lynch me because I have a bullshit case on me that came out of fucking nowhere. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
I also said I'm coming for you D2 towards debears before the end of the night ---> if he was scum it's likely that he would shoot me | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
| ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
OMG PLEASE MAN | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
| ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
I was even considered getting lynched when there wasn't a SINGLE DECENT case I could respond to in time. Have you not read why it would have been completely ridiculous for me to do what I did this game as scum? Are you out of your fucking minds? This was too much. Idiot town made me force claim a role that would potentially keep me alive until the end game, based on SHIT and with absolutely ridiculous cases on me. Sure you'd like to feel smart into thinking that I'm scum wouldn't you? Yea I'm such a fucking genious but you guys, nah, you guys are smart. Blindly following a scum motivated wagon based on absolute vomit. Really, this was just ballsout retarded. Take a time to review how fucked up this bandwagon on me is. I'm gonna take some time to cool off, this was too fucking much. SDM, nice job going full retard. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=370487¤tpage=31#603 I'm coming for you d3, and I will see to that http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=16429599 I don't want to spend the rest of d3 looking for a false read (made right after during night 2 post) Once I was already done shot in night 1, I was pretty much set for the rest of the game, because scum wouldn't risk shotting a SK. Also here's my if I die post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=370487¤tpage=23#453 When I am under threat of death I usually leave off much much more, refer to LVII what I did when I pretty much knew I was going to die. Of course, scum, I can still be SK . . . pshtt.. town... over here.... + Show Spoiler + Don't say this out loud, but don't you think I am scumhunting way too much more than I would need to if I am a SK? Also, can you please think a little bit and realize that it was completely retarded for me to have to claim? | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
Claiming cop, without thinking too much about it, seems stupid as framer/godfather (and the odds are high these are the last roles remaining), as there are high odds there is a real one. GG debears! I wish I had been more insistent on you. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
Anyways, forgot about this one. From my POV n1, me and DP were the most likely hit targets. This is me trying to bait it towards me: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/postmessage.php?quote=445&topic_id=370487 It makes more sense than for scum to have shot DP twice. Scum prob thought the medic was saving me. My view on Djodref's claim is, unless we get to mylo where things get nasty, we should encounter it as legit. Shady Sands, in my eyes, is the only one who has a fair chance of being scum. We lynch debears, we lynch SS, we should be fine. Please don't be retarded and still find me scum after this. DP had a town meta read on me, and he's played in all my games. Much more trustworthy than a debears "lololol scum ZB posts in red!1" one. Now that the pressure is off, read my filter carefully and try to think why in the godamn hell would I take so muhc trouble to switch between townies, when it's 100 times easier (and safer) for me to stick with one. Also read my cases and tell me how in a million years they can even be compared to the ones on debears. Also, my claim makes a lot of sense. It's why I've been more aggressive and confident this game. There's this one other post I recall where I stated I had my own reasons for going after debears, but I can't find it, don't remember what to control+F and I don't think it's worth the trouble. My original plan was to claim having been shot n1 and using that as an argument to go full throttle against debears, whom I've been tunneling during day 1, but then I had decided this was a pretty bad argument and would lose my ticket to not being nk (I was thinking that there could be SK). Anyways, we should be good now. If debears or shady sands is medic, claim and seal the game 100%. Otherwise, just stick with debears and we should be fine. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
If there were two goons, then a cop role would be very useful. 2/3 chance of getting it right when checking scum is pretty good. However what also makes sense is there being 3 goons, and that would make it safer to claim cop. Cop + medic + veteran vs two goons and a godfather/framer seems a bit more imba than medic + veteran vs. three goons. However, we still have three lynches till defeat. debears -> shady -> Djodref should seal us the game. I cannot for the life of me view SDM and RSC as scum right now. If one of you is, well, well played, win deserved. Now all it takes is for town to put on reality goggles, realize why it is dumb for me to be scum, and seal the deal. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
On October 06 2012 07:49 Shady Sands wrote: Why are you pushing for lynch trains already when no one on your list has flipped yet? All that does is give scum an easy way to NK people who everyone thinks is confirmed townie to setup the best LYLO situation possible. Conversely, this lynch train would make sense if someone in this list has flipped? What the hell does this mean. On the RCs: A cop RC is barely worth more than a Mason/Confirmed Townie RC at this point, since it's likely the last remaining scum is GF/Framer. Except that he has been crumbing since day 1. The very least it tells us is he was planning to crumb cop. Likewise, a vet RC is essentially a null tell, because if there is a GF/Framer, there is no reliable way to check ZB. (If there is a GF, Z-Boson might be a false negative; if there is a Framer, ZB might be a false positive). wtf are you saying, do I have STD's? What seals the deal in terms of ZB's further scumminess is how he thinks Debears and or me are the last medic, and are inviting us to claim. That just smells to me like a blue-sniping attempt. I should be scared here, as you argue as well as a dog. They have good sense of smell. I want one of you to claim because from my POV that will end the game. Of course I've explained this, but of course you didn't and won't read. Remember at this point scum have to kill the medic fast, or else the game is over for them. Hardly. Medic will make their life tougher, it's not like they have to kill them Finally, I am deeply dissatisfied with a no-lynch. In a situation where the last scum is trying to stay hidden, no-lynching is exactly what they want since they never have to "put their money where their mouth is" in terms of losing towncred by pushing a mislynch. Yea, and you helped this no-lynch happen by being a fucktard and deliberately going awol I am going to repeat this to everyone: at this point I do not see how you can a) assign any weight to ZB's vet claim or b) view the rest of his filter as anything but scum. ##Vote Z-Boson And this tells you why people hate playing with him, and is generally lynched day one. His case is: 1) I don't believe ZB's vet claim (even though he doesn't address my crumbs as to why they would come from scum rather than me as veteran). 2) Everything else in his filter is scum(i.e. lololol I don't read and I'm too lazy to make a decent case and I am not going to do that because I gotta go!!) | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
Give up, scum. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
I am being accused of being scum. If that is so, then I am switching between two townies. No why would I go and do that? Seems stupid waste of time, no? Hence, I'm not scum. That is what's called an argument. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
It's changing because the game is over. Now all that's left of me is to knock some sense into some people. You, of course, is impossible because you are a squirming scum and see me as a golden opportunity to escape, and SS as well, because he has too much snot in his brain. Anyways, this is a waste a time, let's see what our friends think. I gotta convince them, not you. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
| ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
Debears, just concede man. Pointless to keep on playing. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
I waited so long to do it because I got shot n1. Why would I claim, what does this info add? Scum wouldn't target me again in case I could have been SK (or thought so at the time, didn't realize there were no such thing in this setup). I was forced to claim because of a shit words-cannot-describe retard wagon on me. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
You are town, SDM is scum. Why would SDM not cast the lynching vote on a townie? Unlikely. This goes along with everybody's town reads on him. I am pretty much town. If there is no medic, it's 100% sure that this is true, because nobody died n1, so there must be a veteran, and if I'm fake claiming veteran the real veteran can just fuck me. RSC would be very surprising, as he could have easily pushed a lynch on your townie self (ss, observe how this is hypothetical, and not a scumslip. See the difference?) or on me by discrediting my claim. His cases seem genuine to me. I can see him being scum, but I highly, highly doubt it. RSC is your only go-to card, if that's what your next post is about. You're gonna have to convince people of someone else to be scum in case SS gets lynched today. Why you and not him? Well, for starters, Shady has actually (hooray!) managed to figure this out and has seen that it's either you or him. You, however, already started spreading doubts: On October 06 2012 15:52 debears wrote: @Djo I would say I'm the best lynch to clarify my alignment for a possible mylo. Other than that 1) SS - his actions indicate scum 2) RSC - I gotta look through his filter again but he hasn't been too active 3) SDM - His refusal to vote for me for the lynch is weird as I said before. He is less confirmed due to the two rc's. It would make sense that we don't have a super strong scumread at this point if SDM is indeed scum. However, it would be infering that SDM played lights out. It's still possible though. 4) Djo - you have used the noobie card to shade your scummy actions, but it makes sense from a cop perspective to keep a target off your back. However, this is no actual way to prove your claim (the lack of a counterclaim is good support though). 4) Z-Bo - confirmed town to me unless a medic claims In case you somehow survive, the natural scummy way of life here is to spread doubt and confusion. This is my final stance, like I've said, I'm extremely bored at this game and have nothing else to do here. If either RSC or SDM are scum, I'll be really impressed (and sad). Concede, seriously, you are just making yourself look bad. ##Vote debears + Show Spoiler + For betting purposes, you are a Framer | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
thought you were going for RSC nice. Just give up bro | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
For him to be scum it's like, shit, it was a daring and fucking risky plan. Taking the time to bus kush even when DP had dropped his Vote on him. Being the only person to not jump in on this garbage wagon against me, he could have easily made a case on me. Effectively making decent cases against omni and SS. His not voting on you was completely fucking weird. He was in fact around, and pretty much suggested a null lynch. If he was scum he could have easily, EASILY lynched you. His not voting on you has actually given us another day to vote. If you had died, being town, we would have been in a nasty mylo situation, which is quite lovely for scum. He could then easily push a lynch on SS and won. He would have to be REAL FUCKING ballsy to actually do this. You, however, have been doing exactly as scum would.You can't realistically survive based on SS alone, and need to spread confusion on more confirmed players. You tried going for me, then you quickly realized your "slip" was so fucking bad that you quickly tried sending it off as a "trap". Then you caught SS in your "trap" but, as scum, you can't actually survive on his lynch alone. Hell, I even sniped you predicting this. You said earlier you had a town read on me for my meta reads. Then you post a meta read that says I'm scum. Then you jump on this garbage wagon on me that makes 0 sense at all. The golden opportunity for scum. So, what's more likely - SDM being a mastermind of effectively promoting the bus of kush, not putting town in a mylo situation, not jumping on the garbage wagon against me and fooling me, DP, and rest of town until day 3? Or you, a top scum read since day one, with full cases against you, sheeping off of reads since day 1 jumping on my wagon, and right now behaving exactly as scum would? You are getting lynched. No questions asked. It's not saying "you are so wrong about this" or "let's bet" or not giving up when you are clearly gonna get lynched that's gonna save you. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
On October 07 2012 18:33 Shady Sands wrote: If you RC and let us know there is no medic, it helps town play immensely... for example, Djo claimed cop thinking there was a medic to save him. He died for it. There being a medic does not make my claim fake. Medic could have saved DP AND I got shot. There not being a medic makes my claim 100% legitimate. If I claim, that does not mean there can't be a medic. Djo wisely claimed because he was getting lynched. Massive shoutout to him, he played the game well, especially for his first time. I've had a town read on him during most of the game and ended up voting for him due to my frustration and confusion, forgetting the reasons why I thought him to be town. So yea, me claiming earlier on just made me more likely to get nked, and would also tell scum there is no medic. If I wasn't forced to claim he'd actually be alive, because scum would think there is a medic for sure. See what I mean why my claim was fucking stupid? | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
The only correct thing there is the assumption you are getting lynched. What, you want me to switch just because you pulled a "I acknowledge I'm getting lynched, but I nevertheless I want to sacrifice myself and make sure SDM dies after me?" I'm doing exactly what you said. Lynching you. Then if by some miracle you aren't scum I'll reevaluate and think outside the box for my last remaining night. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
| ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
You say it's bullshit, to create confusion. Why would he do that? He could have put town in mylo and easily pressed a Shady Sands lynch. I mean, real fucking easily. I even said, and was strong about this, that one of you or shady are absolute scum. Now that you are still alive, we will have one more chance, and the last thing he wants is a 3-person mylo, due to the amount of info accumulated and the difficulty it is for scum to win like that. I found the above is much more important than: By keeping, SS and me(especially me) around, a mafia has the opportunity to take advantage of the confusion it will create for town. He can get away with nks that will easily be blamed on me and SS until our alignments are cleared up. He can act on the confusion in the thread and hide behind not forcing a vote (despite the fact that he stated earlier that he wanted a last minute vote situation). Also, this: Ok let's summarize your reasons for me seeming town. 1) I was aggressive d1 2) Scum doesn't hang on that long faced with pages of accusation Two pretty piss poor reasons to view me as town, especially when you say that I definitely have my scummy looking inconsistencies. Also, based on your argument earlier, right now I am town. I am being extremely aggressive and active. I have the spotlight. And I am hanging on and contributing what I can before I get lynched while looking scummy. Contradiction no? Bought you a ticket day two. Showed that you are either a) townie or b) scum that will take great effort into seeming townie. It will not be the same in day 4. I pushed alsn over you because aside from his scumminess, he was contributing almost nothing, passing off my cases as emotional and confirmation biased or whatever. If you were to be scum, it would show itself later on, granted how much you were posting. I don't need to convince you why, but in my opinion, you have already shown this. If by some ungodly chance you are indeed town, don't worry, I'll look long and hard at his filters. Up until now I haven't taken the liberty to look at his filter too harshly, because I didn't see the possibility of him being scum. I'll do this once you die, because I really don't feel like wasting my time based on a case that has a 95% chance to be bullshit from squirming scum. 1)If you are town, keep doing what you are doing until you die. 2)If you are scum, just give the fuck up. Even if you don't, you're still getting lynched, even if you acknowledge this fact and still do 1). RSC, what do you make of all this? Show your face here please. You are too fucking lurky. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
| ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
| ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
| ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
Guess it must be shady then. SDM, do you think RSC can possibly be scum? | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
You put up with a lot of shit, and it worked in day2, I got a townie vibe from you defending yourself and pushing cases. However, that went down the drain once you jumped into the wagon against me after you proclaimed me townie and later went into desperation mode =/ At least now you are in the afterlife, enjoying the sweet knowledge of who is the last scum, while I'm still a confused and frustrated townie. See you in 24h =) | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
I dunno, rereading the filters, I'm starting to have a bad townie feel on corrosion. However, RSC also gives me a town feel. And there's no way you are scum so wtf is going on lol Find anything interesting in the filters? | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
a) Out of the three I'm most sure on him not being scum b) even though I'm probably going to die, I'd like to know his reads in case he's the one to die | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
Sorry, mr. RSC | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
First off let me first say that all my "omg omg SDM is town" posts are bullshit. They've been bullshit ever since debears made a case on him (which, debears, to your happiness, I did read with townie eyes. Initially I did find it lacking, but after rereading it carefully, there are some points I agree with. More on that later). I wanted to make this post right before the deadline, but I g2g right now So I'm going to do three things before I die. 1) DON'T LYNCH SHADY.
2) DON'T LYNCH RemedySC. Not too much to say here. His posts feel pretty townie, and I just get a general town feel over him. His play is similar to his town meta, and I really really take him to be town. 3) LYNCH THE FUCK OUT OF SONIC DEATH MONKEY Oh boy this is tough for me to handle. But odds are against him. I've realized that everybody's reason for finding him townie are not so good. He took his stance on kush immediately after Stutters wrote his own destructive case on kush. He then called out a bunch of scum slips, and insisted that kush gets lynched. So, that would have been a good move for scum, going ahead and bussing his fellow player kush, who was basically beyond salvation at that point. So that's not enough to clear him of being a bussing scum badass.
It's really hard to find anything in SDM's filter because he seems to take a lot of care to not appear inconsistent or wishy-washy. My opinion is that he's playing a hell of a game as scum. I'd choose him over shady for these reasons, especially the one that corrosion's posts are unlikely to come from a scummy mindset. SDM actually did bus his only active partner day one. Observe, however, how his case on kush is 50 minutes away from stutter's case, so it wasn't an all-out bus. The timing of his case he must have felt that kush had no salvation, and was the correct thing to do as scum, and what has helped him survive this long. If you read through SDM's filter with this in mind, you feel the contrary from what you do when you read RSC's filter, for example, where RSC's cases and posts feel a lot more genuine and townie than SDM. Also, observe his cool reaction in this last day. THis is a huge HUGE giveaway. He says he's taking a look at some filters, and with 40 min before the deadline, he hasn't made any conclusions or whatever. He's not really scared of death, and probably feels like he has this game won. This is what I wanted to see when I kept insisting he was not scum. More or less confirmed my suspicions. Lynch SDM. game's on me | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
If that doesn't work, listen to RSC. Ultimately he should decide whether it's you or SDM who will be lynched. Anyways, leaving now. GG guys, hope I'm right about this, and hope you reach the same disturbing conclusion. See you all in 48+ hours :D | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
| ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
finally this game is over! I got lazy at the end, because I really thought debears was scum. His flip-flop on me was just so weird. He had said he had a townie meta read on me, and then when he voted on me, using the same meta arguments, I was like WTF? Perhaps I got a bit OMGUSy that I almost got lynched because of it. I also wouldn't be able to live with myself if debears was actually scum and barely escaped lynch twice. Around five hours before his death I kinda realized he was going to pop townie and became extremely torn over shady/SDM. I spent like 6-7 hours afterwards reading the thread a ton of times so I could get it right. Indeed I look bad right now, debears put up with a TON of shit. Well played buddy, your death was not in vain | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
Looking forward to hear how he could have been caught earlier on. Was it his triple scum-slip detection while keeping his wishy-washyness on kush at the end? Was there anything else that gave him away? | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
I honestly just took it as a lapse in his brain. I also didn't get the scum motivations for him saying "I wouldn't mind a no-lynch" in his post. When I read it, afterwards I just assumed that he went full retard for whatever reason. Why wouldn't a scum safely lynch his top read and make town go into mylo? | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
On October 10 2012 09:34 Djodref wrote: I really enjoyed my first game so I would like to thanks everyone for playing, hosting and coaching. I'm a little disapointed that all my scum reads were wrong and that SDM picked me up as the cop during D3. I've learned that I shouldn't WIFOM myself into oblivion and I should scumhunt more. In this game, showing survival instinct was a good scum tell (and cop tell) but I didn't pay attention to it. I hope to improve for my next games and that I could play with you again Props to SDM for playing alone this whole time ^^ Props to debears for his patience when I was building pure WIFOM cases against him Thank you everyone ! All your scum reads were wrong? Dude, look at me! I've successfully led lynches against 2 townies and a cop whilst thinking the scum was a town read all game long and not wanting to lynch the first scum in day one. The only correct read I've made wasn't even mine. Was good for me to realize that I was finding people scum for the wrong reasons, and what kind of things I should be looking for. Gonna tackle Liquid City now ;D | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
On October 10 2012 15:08 corrosion wrote: Someone fucked up the lock to the place where I live (I'm a student), so I couldn't get in. Since I had nothing better to do, I headed back to school and read the conclusion of the thread and the QTs. I'll post my thought on this post by thrawn from the obs QT: + Show Spoiler + i'm kinda pissed that corrosion went ahead and made a post about wanting to leave and then dropped the no lynch vote without pming me first. saying you're going to ask for a replacement, voting no-lynch, and dropping a bunch of reads instead of just pming the host and not posting anymore is bad form. he basically wifom'd the crap out of the thread so he's gonna be a difficult guy to read, and then there's lesrah who has been completely impossible to read so that's 2 people that town can't really use as a part of their discussion. hopefully it will all come to a conclusion soon and they will either get replaced or modkilled/flipped before the deadline As far as I'm concerned my first post says that I'm thinking about leaving, but it doesn't say that I'm planning to ask for a replacement. I was in fact thinking that since Lesrah hadn't been replaced yet, it was unlikely that someone would be available to replace me. I state that I'm going to discuss the situation with my coach (to try to find a reasonable solution). The reason that I make a vote, is so I can avoid getting modkilled if I change my mind and keep playing anyway. I didn't try to find out if no-lynch is a valid way to vote. I thought that if it wasn't allowed, I would be notified so I could change the vote to myself (probably not good town play) or my biggest scumread. The reason that I posted in the thread, is that I thought it might give town useful information in case they were planning to wait for me to address posts or if they were going to waste time asking me further questions that I expected not to answer. I posted my reads because I thought some of them might be helpful to town. I also thought that my coach would discourage me from posting those reads if they shouldn't be posted (I didn't ask him directly. Maybe he didn't read my post in the thread). I thought to myself that if a replacement couldn't be found, I'd stick around and vote and maybe try to make some posts now and then without putting a lot of time into it. I don't think that's how the game is supposed to be played though, so I did ask for a replacement between my initial post and the post containing my reads. My motivations in those posts were to try to keep town as well informed as I could at that time, and to keep the options open in case you didn't have any readily available replacements for me. Does this alter your view of the situation, or do you still think it's bad form? You did great. If not for you, I would have had a much harder time finding SS town in n4 | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
On October 11 2012 14:11 kushm4sta wrote: Sonics bust was real obvious. He even prefaced it with "trying to make a case on kush is like trying to kick open an already open door." Like he was trying to get in on that suspicion so bad even though he had nothing to add to it. ALSO IMO such a big scumtell was how he tried to nk the most obvious person d1. This is such a bad idea but SDM did it because it worked for him in 26 when he NK thrawn, the obvious town leader, N1. He did the same exact thing here, except it didn't work. Town should have noticed IMO. Really good job SDM even if you did cause my first loss You sure like to gloat don't you... It was not obvious, and he did not cause your first loss. Analyzing NK's to find suspects is pointless, also. | ||
|
Z-BosoN
Brazil2590 Posts
On October 11 2012 14:42 kushm4sta wrote: I don't think this is gloating. I dind't mean my loss was SDM's fault. Scum LVP definitely goes to me lol. Also i would have seen that NK and I would know it was SDM instantly I think. Wow you didn't insult me, there is hope for you yet! It came off to me as gloating, because it might have been easy for you who already knew his alignment, but when you are townie you have no idea of things and everything just seems hella scummy | ||
| ||
