EPTNewbie Mini Mafia XXVIII
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Stutters695
2610 Posts
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Stutters695
2610 Posts
Don't have to leave town this weekend so I'll have plenty of time. | ||
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Stutters695
2610 Posts
On September 28 2012 07:08 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: Encouraging newbie towns to post is more important than typing out the same things I've said about lurker policy in XXVI and XXVII yet again: If we don't have a good scum case (lurker or active) by late d1, we lynch the most suspicious lurker. We should obviously be looking to avoid that scenario by scum hunting. That's really all that needs to be said as far as I'm concerned. Agreed but, regrettably, there isn't really anything else to talk about this early. To second his point about townies being active, don't get intimidated if you aren't really sure how to make a case and stop posting. Long cases aren't the only way to catch scum so if you feel overwhelmed sick around and ask questions. Demand answers for things you find wrong. Even if it doesn't directly catch a scum it provides insight into both you and the person you question. Silence allows the scum to hide very easily without having to do anything. | ||
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Stutters695
2610 Posts
First impression is I really don't like Kush's early play. Reading everything more in depth now. | ||
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Stutters695
2610 Posts
On September 29 2012 01:36 kushm4sta wrote: I'm sorry you don't like my early play. Care to expand on that? I don't like your early play either, except I will tell you why: you are a lurker. It's been several hours since you said you read everything in depth, why not share your thoughts then? This is your first post. Let me summarize: 1 theres nothing to talk about d1 2 townies should be active So you didn't actually give your lurker policy. 1 is just anti town. A lot of stuff has happened that you can talk about. 2 is just obvious beyond obvious. Alright, here are my thoughts. Starting with this post (^). You have issues with reading or you're misrepresenting intentionally. I said "there isn't anything to talk about this early. As in the time of posting that what can we discuss except lurker and simple policy that has nothing to do with a case. Number two is obvious because you have played multiple games. Not everyone has. My first game I played like I described in my post and was dead weight. I was carried and simply posting more would have helped out with that. Even if it is completely obvious to everyone in the game it still was worth saying. It gave you something to accuse me with, which opens up discussion. Now onto your other case of misrepresenting (Full quote in spoiler for context, relevant part is immediately after). + Show Spoiler + On September 29 2012 00:35 kushm4sta wrote: Darthpunk 1 You ask people what they think of me, Then when they don't tell you the exact answer you want to hear, you accuse them of defending me. What you meant was agree with me about kush or I will FOS you. 2 Did anyone notice how I went from DEFINITELY SCUM to a "distraction" instantly and without reason? @darthpunk Why did you unvote me if you are certain I am scum? He explains his strategy: So why have you already FOSed 3 different people? 3 Darth's scumstrat is not so much to flame but to provoke. This is from the post in which he FOSes Alsn. Not even his most inflamatory statement but pay close attention to his tone in his posts. Specifically, "Savvy?" Condescending, intimidating, irritating. He wants you to get pissed. 4 @Darthpunk at the end of newbie 26, marv said scum's biggest mistake was not nightkilling me. So your supposition that scum would never nightkill me is in itself ridiculous. It was an indirect flame, suggesting I play bad, and that's all that post was. 4 @Darthpunk at the end of newbie 26, marv said scum's biggest mistake was not nightkilling me. So your supposition that scum would never nightkill me is in itself ridiculous. It was an indirect flame, suggesting I play bad, and that's all that post was. Can you show me where this happened? I checked the postgame from XXVI and it wasn't there. I checked the pregame for XXVII and it wasn't there. The closest I found was this post from Hapa that says they made the mistake of shooting kreb N2 because of the gut read Jacob had on you as town and that they couldn't kill Jacob, you and myself at once N3 to reduce the number of confirmed/near-confirmed. If this is the quote, it wasn't that your amazing play put you in such a confirmed town role that they should have shot you, its that Jacob (de-facto town leader) thought you were town. He isn't off the mark in saying that your play makes it so you don't get night-killed. If Jacob had been iffy about you I'd bet money Hapa wouldn't have said anything about scum shooting you. Instead of addressing why less than a day into the game you aren't worried about a nightkill you accuse him of flaming while misrepresenting previous games to avoid answering. | ||
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Stutters695
2610 Posts
The rest of my thoughts on Kush's play: I feel the beginning of their argument is pretty self-explanatory. Once Kush says "thank you now i won't be nk" is where I really got suspicious of him. Just look at how he has responded to Darth's case. "Oh those were jokes." On September 28 2012 11:22 kushm4sta wrote: should not have looked at thread again now I have to respond... @debears yeah it's like exactly the same as last game. That's because I think up my first post almost word for word before I even get my roll pm. I did not get to follow through with it last game though since I rolled scum. Also sorry for the semiflame war. It was not that bad. Also he started it. Aside from that, I think the plan to start tunneling during the second half of the day is really bad. It helped us a lot last game as scum because we had an excuse not to vote for the people we were fosing. Because the most active townie is tunneling me? Obviously I'm not going to be nk. And yes it was a joke but the best jokes have truth to them. It is a joke in that it's purpose was to be funny since obviously it doesn't help the scumhunt or my defense. If you weren't scumhunting or defending a case to prove you're town, why are you posting it? DarthPunk also throws up these two posts describing why he thinks Kush is scummy http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=370487¤tpage=8#151 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=370487¤tpage=8#157 After the post in the first link, kush says On September 28 2012 10:37 kushm4sta wrote: Thank you. now why you didn't do that at first I don't know. Instead you engaged in this flame war with me for really no reason. About my first post, yeah it was meant as mostly irrelevant. Just an introduction so people could get to know me. I prob should not bring this up but let me just say I have an unkilled undefeated streak atm. 3 games played and I have yet to die and yet to lose. Therefore, for perhaps selfish reasons, I have a strong will to self survival. I want people to know that I have a scummy meta so they don't lynch me for it. Apparently you were ready to lynch me in all 3 games even though I was town in 2 of them. I want to avoid that. So that wasn't an insult or a flame? You are saying I've never been nk because scum doesn't see me as a threat because I am bad. That's the real talk translation. Note: The only "flame" so far has been Kush calling him an asshole and how Kush interpreted the JK comment (fact: if you claim JK d1 you should be dead. The only way that doesn't happen is if people write it off because your play is so hard to read between town/scum). He addresses his own very first post and that is it. He says he wants to avoid DP lynching him because in 2 of his past 3 times he's been town. That bears no relevance to this. He hasn't addressed Darth's case at all. He's tried to discredit it through a strawman. After Darth's next part of the case (Post 157) Kush again ignores it (writes this one off as just claiming DP thinks he plays bad, so the case is invalid) and just responds to part of it. On September 28 2012 11:03 kushm4sta wrote: I did bait your FoS intentionally actually. Before the nk post. That's when I baited your fos. Your recent case against my defense basically says you think I play bad. Just because I don't fit your mold of how you want a townie to act does not mean I can't find scum. So we're to believe when you claim that particular joke post was to bait his FoS? So tell me, what did you learn by baiting his FoS? How does having distracted with you benefit the town? Why should we believe your other joke posts are jokes if this one had a purpose? His defenses have been non-existent other than "jokes" and "player sounds weird compared to townie." Are you fucking kidding me? Having your sentence sound weird (it doesn't by the way) is a bad thing compared to calling someone town before you make a case on them? No, I don't buy it. Finally, his only scum-hunting is this: + Show Spoiler + On September 29 2012 00:35 kushm4sta wrote: Darthpunk 1 You ask people what they think of me, Then when they don't tell you the exact answer you want to hear, you accuse them of defending me. What you meant was agree with me about kush or I will FOS you. 2 Did anyone notice how I went from DEFINITELY SCUM to a "distraction" instantly and without reason? @darthpunk Why did you unvote me if you are certain I am scum? He explains his strategy: So why have you already FOSed 3 different people? 3 Darth's scumstrat is not so much to flame but to provoke. This is from the post in which he FOSes Alsn. Not even his most inflamatory statement but pay close attention to his tone in his posts. Specifically, "Savvy?" Condescending, intimidating, irritating. He wants you to get pissed. 4 @Darthpunk at the end of newbie 26, marv said scum's biggest mistake was not nightkilling me. So your supposition that scum would never nightkill me is in itself ridiculous. It was an indirect flame, suggesting I play bad, and that's all that post was. Where to begin with this "case." 1) Before this post, he accused debears of defending you. There is no them. And quite I don't blame him considering debears said "let the man defend himself instead of trying to rally everyone active behind your cause so early. If he is scummy, the votes will come." despite your multiple posts and not having defended yourself once. 2) This is the only point I'm actually curious about but I can understand why he would. When everyone accepts your "answers" he can't pressure you because no one will back him up and you'll just accuse him of flaming and joke around some more. I would like to hear DarthPunk's response to this point though. 3)Ok so what are his inflammatory statements? How does this correlate to him being scum? You accuse him of targetting you because of your playstyle, but here you do the same thing. The difference is he has facts to back up his. Your case reeks of OMGUS. 4) See my previous post. You're using the flaming to skirt the real issues. You should have been dead after you claimed JK. The only reason you have lived so long is because of bad play all around. Hapa says the mafia established the townieness of Kush. Again, you're making it seem like DP is completely off the mark when that isn't true and using to to say he is flaming you and his points are invalid (again strawman). Why aren't you afraid of a NK? Because of one post that isn't even a majority consensus? There is plenty of time where you could answer and actually contribute to where you might be a NK target, but instead <12 hours in you | ||
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Stutters695
2610 Posts
Until I get some answers: ##Vote Kushm4sta | ||
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Stutters695
2610 Posts
Additionally, since you have done 0 scumhunting. Let's assume that DarthPunk isn't a choice, who would your best scum read be and why? | ||
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Stutters695
2610 Posts
On September 29 2012 05:27 kushm4sta wrote: hi sutteers. why do I have to assume darth isn't a choice? Because he's obviously your #1 choice right now and I've even given you reasons as to why your case is bad. I want to see what you think of the game as a whole, not just you and DP. I've seen that all game. Stutters695 wrote: Ok so what are his inflammatory statements? How does this correlate to him being scum? You accuse him of targetting you because of your playstyle, but here you do the same thing. The difference is he has facts to back up his. Your case reeks of OMGUS. You responded like you have all game by addressing part of it, but not the whole statement "He isn't flaming but he trying to make people mad. You can tell.in every post where he foses.someone just by the tone of his prose. Savvy? that was.the example I used, but there are.plenty. more. Who even uses that word except in old.westerns when a figure of authority is talking down to a subordinate." Where are the other examples? I don't find that particularly assholish, so I'm not seeing the other ones. It seems more like frustration of not getting his point across to me. On September 29 2012 05:25 kushm4sta wrote: that post of when I say player and person is actually from when I was scum. that was.because.I put in extra effort to not make scum slips. this game I don't even give a fuck. I.think people misunderstand.the nature of scumslips. I'm surprised that people who have been scum before don't realise this. Think of the scumslips you've made.They aren't obvious like that. I made plenty last game. So you don't think I was aggressive my second game? Read the post where drazzak foses me. I.flame quite bad there.if I remember.correctly. People.critisize me for not scumhunting. Well I identified my top scum read and his scummy behavior. My time is not infinite though and people keep asking me questions I have to answer. Would you prefer I ignore questions? This is bullshit. You have the second longest filter in the game. You haven't answered any of the questions either DP or I have asked, you've skirted around them. And you could have taken the time to answer them when you were arguing with DP instead of just going back and forth without spending any more time in the thread. That part in red. What the fuck? You don't "give a fuck" this game? Why is that? Seems to me if you were town there wouldn't be a scumslip, regardless of your attitude. | ||
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Stutters695
2610 Posts
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Stutters695
2610 Posts
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Stutters695
2610 Posts
On September 29 2012 09:20 kushm4sta wrote: Debears if you want me to answer this question you need to make it clearer what the question is. Yeah I know my actions were stupid and I'm sorry. Stop calling me a little bitch because I already said sorry. I dont even a blue role to roleclaim so yeah im fucked this game. You aren't fucked if you show value and scumhunt. Wallowing in self-pity will get you lynched however. | ||
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Stutters695
2610 Posts
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Stutters695
2610 Posts
Anyway, until/if Kush actually decides to play, I think we should just ignore him and focus on everyone else. Between his activity and posts so far it doesn't seem like we're risking a no lynch by doing that. | ||
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Stutters695
2610 Posts
On September 30 2012 04:39 Alsn wrote: I actually find some of your arguments very compelling. I agree that his 180 on Djodref looks scummy, but I don't agree with your original argument that him making that case on both you and Djodref is inherently scummy just because the cases are similar. I however think that your pressuring has yielded fruit. I happen to agree that your initial feud with debears was on pretty shaky grounds, which is why I spoke out against you at that point. It may just have been me misinterpreting your tone/intentions, but nevertheless I feel most of the early-game arguments debears put forward were relatively sound, and you weren't necessarily in the right for attacking them. His responses do seem convoluted though. To be fair, I think his "scum slip"(the one where he all but proclaimed Djod town) is pretty much the exact same type of slip that kush committed. Basically, directly suggesting that he should pm marv could be seen as him knowing djod's alignment. But I think just as with the kush slip, it's definitely not 100%. It could be a typo, he could have just been lazy and not wanted to say marv/hapa, there could be many different reasons. Anything he says himself probably won't sway anyone though. I'm actually surprised there hasn't been more of an outcry about it. So to sum up, I disagree that debears is clearly wrong for saying that your initial case was weak, however, I feel like he has some pretty scummy explanations for some of his actions, particularly wrt Djodref. I think your case has gone from pretty nit picky to a rather strong case. So I think I'll withdraw my FoS on you, your explanation for your behaviour concerning SDM earlier was satisfactory, and I will probably have to go through your case against him at least one more time before I can be sure, but it seems to be pretty solid to me. I would like to see some input from the less active players with regards to the entire debears/boson debate. Because currently I'm having pretty much null reads on all of the following: Omniscient, RemedySC, Corrosion, Djodref(someone else remind me if there's anyone I've missed please). A few of them have posted slightly scummy or slightly town, but either way it's very difficult for me to make up my mind one way or the other right now. If we assume that kush wasn't trolling us with the "I'm red" part, then we have quite some time before we ever need to worry about mylo/lylo, but I'd still like for us to get there without either being forced to lynch 4 null-reading lurkers, or to have them left in the game at that stage. I disagree with this. Yes, it is suspicious, but not nearly as bad as Kush's. It definitely merits looking into, but compare the differences. I would reason it is equally likely to be a scum slip compared to a townie. Kush's slip called someone town (not his normal meta to refer to everyone as town) on someone he was accusing of being scum. Debears told someone to PM marv for help. Even if he was scum I think it'd be more likely that his reasoning for saying Marv isn't to tell Djo exactly who to pm as to come off as town himself by referencing that he has the town coach. | ||
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Stutters695
2610 Posts
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Stutters695
2610 Posts
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Stutters695
2610 Posts
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Stutters695
2610 Posts
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Stutters695
2610 Posts
His second post of the game he puts a FoS on Kush. + Show Spoiler [FoS on Kushm4sta] + On September 28 2012 17:56 Alsn wrote: Wow, upon reading the thread I realise that kush has been following the exact pattern I just now specified to be the way not to play if he wanted to absolve himself in my eyes. In fact, I could go back to my initial posts to him in NMMXXV saying almost the exact same thing. As such, I think I have no choice but to cast a: FoS kushm4sta kush, in order for me to let up, I want you to stop it with your ridiculous knee-jerk play and actually point out why you think other people are scummy as opposed to why you yourself is so obviously town. While the following idiom is quite ironic in a forum game, actions speak louder than words and you defending yourself is just that, meaningless words. Start proving to everyone that you are concerned with finding scum instead of worrying about your silly streak. That being said, I think everyone else is jumping the gun here, kush is an extremely easy target to pick on, especially since he almost never seems to think before he posts. The scumslip that Darth and others pointed out can definitely be seen as damning. However, I am not inclined to agree with the following post from Darth: This last part seems to overly simplify the matter to me. The only reason? I myself can see a few reasons, but I would like kush to reply himself before I comment further as I don't want to give him an easy out. I can state for the record that unless kush shapes up considerably, I'm all in favour of lynching him. Simply because him playing like his normal self would be a liability for town later on due to his inclination to just defend himself over hunting scum. However, I definitely want to give him the benefit of the doubt and allow him to actually try and show that he has town's best interest in mind. So until then, while I definitely would like everyone to share their reads on kush so far, that is not enough for D1. We need to start exploring different possibilities because if we decide to lynch kush and he flips green, spending all of D1 talking about him will put us back at square one minus two townies. I'll make another post within an hour or two on another topic as I think I've made myself perfectly clear on where I stand on kush, but right now I need breakfast. The most important thing to focus on from this is even when he FoSes Kush he states that he thinks everyone is jumping the gun, but if Kush doesn't shape up his posting he is ok with lynching him. This post and the next one are what made me go WTF. On September 29 2012 18:17 Alsn wrote: First, I'd like to start things with stating so far D1 has pretty much lived up to my exact nightmare scenario that I speculated about when arguing with DP yesterday. Everyone is voting kush with only very little discussion about any other topic(mainly, the debears-boson exchange). Looking at the vote count, the last official count says 7, and now corrosion added his vote for a total of 8. With myself that would be 9, the exact number of town in this game. From my point of view, unless kushm4sta, Djodref and Lesrah are the 3 scum, there are scum pushing this lynch. Given that, I'm really starting to dislike this lynch. I agree however that kush has been mostly concerned with defending himself against perceived injustice rather than actually trying to hunt scum, this still does not convince me that he is scum. Lynching scum with an overwhelming majority D1 just seems like way too improbably. Sure, if we had to fight tooth and nail to get 7 votes, I might buy it, but that's not the case. It seems to me there must be scum sheeping onto this lynch. Like I've stated before I can go along with the kush lynch, but I'd rather try and lynch my top scum read at this point and with the current developments, I see a kush lynch more as a last resort than my main scum read. Unfortunately, this argument is only available to people who have yet to vote and are town, as well as to scum since other than myself only scum are aware of my alignment. For everyone else, the "unless a, b and c are scum" argument will include me. My argument is at least enough to convince myself, so I'll be scouring the thread for the next couple of hours to see if my "gut scum reads" so far have any merit and if so push that/those case(s) instead. If it turns out that they are going nowhere, I will vote kush. But I still feel we have enough time to at least have a discussion on the topic of "just wtf is going on here?!". So now that the game has dragged on and Kush's play has deteriorated, what happened to "unless kush shapes up considerably, I'm all in favour of lynching him." ? You also say you'd rather try and lynch your top scumread (first red highlight) but up until this post you haven't posted a single scum read. The best you've done is questioned Z-Boson until you dropped it over time. Why are you suggesting we should have lynched someone else without posting a case or even who you are suspicious of? Additionally who were those "gut scum reads" you mentioned? Going forward to where you + Show Spoiler [Voting for Kushm4sta] + On September 29 2012 21:15 Alsn wrote: I've been doing some soul searching and I'm starting to agree that it's not worth it to try and push any other cases right now. Mostly because my entire premise was that I was thinking it to be unlikely for kush to be scum. I realise that after trying to put into words why I think that is so, I have nothing other than the fact that I "feel" him to be town, which is a really stupid reason for absolving him. I thought I could back it up by saying he's been pressured to hard, there's no way he's responsible for not scum hunting. But in the end, I can't find a logical reason to forgive him if I exclude my own gut feeling from the equation. I think now that my best option is to hold on to whatever small reads I have(because while I have some suspicions, I don't think they are rock solid) until after the lynch is over. Because at least then, we will have more information. So for now, although my gut is screaming at me, I'll commit to voting for kush, mostly because most of what I said about BosoN has returned somewhat satisfactory answers, I really don't like the way a lot of people got away with not basically posting anything at all(I'm looking at you, Djodref, corrosion, Omniscient, RemedySC). I think that's probably what irks me the most, the thing I was most hoping would not happen, did happen. ##Vote: kushm4sta Now I'm a little confused with his logic. With his vote the lynch is essentially finished (if scum wanted to last minute switch they'd be giving themselves away and it would be GG) but instead of sharing any of his reads (his gut feelings or his top scumread) he decides he should wait til after the lynch to share any "reads". Doesn't this directly go against his "we need to start exploring different possibilities"? He even listed four lurkers he could have pressured them throughout the day, but instead he argued with DP about Kush (whom we shouldn't focus entirely on according to Alsn). His whole day 1 posting is scummy as hell to me and reeks of someone who tried to help defend Kush before Kush melted down and tried to retroactively justify this defense through maintaining that stance. His case on debears is a good contribution (at first glance, I haven't read it in context of the thread yet) but I want to see how he explains his contradictions and false promises from day 1. | ||
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. But a big national holiday is coming this week end so I should be able to participate to the thread and finish to read all the guides.
