On October 01 2012 03:47 Alsn wrote:Disclaimer!+ Show Spoiler + My original post included the full spoilered quotes of their conversations. Unfortunately, TL got mad at me and said something wussy about a 100000 character post limit, pfah. For that reason, sourcing of my statements are done as links.
So, like I said before, I'm working under the theory that debears and Z-BosoN are either both town, or only one of them is scum. I think this because they both committed to attacking each other very early on in the game, even before it was obvious that kush was going to be lynched. They also did not stop doing this just because kush was getting lynched, which suggests to me that either both of them are convinced that it's important that people pay attention to their case, or that one of them is and the other one is just trying to defend himself.
I don't see how eliminating the possibility of us both being scum is helpful right now, unless you want to push a lynch of either of us.More importantly, if both of them were scum they would be drawing attention to themselves at the same time that their final teammate was getting torn to shreds, which I can not believe to be true.
With that in mind I decided to look at their feud once again to see if there were any tells that one of them was more scummy than the other.
First, the entire thing begins with Z-BosoN in my view completely misrepresenting what SDM said in order to throw a
FoS on debears. This as some kind of response to debears initial suspicions of Z-BosoN
found here. At this point I believe that was just Z-BosoN misreading SDM, and thus finding scumminess where there was none. But it leads to a lot of discussion and material for us to analyze, so that's all well and good, I'm afraid I might have misrepresented it at the time though, not taking the time to look at what happened properly in context.
Debears then
responds with this post where he says SDM's opinions on lurker policy was there for anyone to see a good 2 hours before Z-BosoN misrepresented him, and also that he thought Z-BosoN was being inconsistent himself(which he was and later admits to). Again, this is merely meant to illustrate that Z-BosoN's original case on debears
was in fact weak. Debears should definitely not be considered scummy based on that alone.
Then we have the
following post where debears again very calmly and reasonably explains to Z-BosoN that he considers his case/FoS to be weak and OMGUS. I agree with that. So far, I'm finding myself exactly on the same side of the argument as I did then. Z-BosoN was clearly out of line in criticising debears. I don't think I'm entirely at fault for thinking he was "trying to shut him up" at around that time.
This is also where I have joined the debate, making Z-BosoN reply to my own comments in between their feud, I think my original case has been analyzed to death though, so I won't mention it further. At this point both of them start to also focus on kush since this is around the time when DarthPunk had made his case against kush's behaviour and his slip. Z-BosoN had responded earlier to DP saying he isn't sold on it being a scum slip, but mostly just not liking the way kush was acting.
(Source)Z-BosoN then posts his first major
case against debears. In it, he attacks debears for perceived inconsistencies but looking at it closely, I find that most of the arguments Z-BosoN put forward are pretty weak. Mostly due to the fact that I found the posts that Z-BosoN are referencing in his case to be very reasonable and without any obvious scum motivation. Debears also addresses this case later on.
Oh? Right. I'll save this for later.Now the kush bandwagon is in full swing, both players ask kush to shape up at different stages, Z-BosoN initially, then debears when he gets back into the thread after a 5 hour gap. I don't know if this gap is significant as it
did happen during debears' primetime. Which means he probably wasn't asleep but I'm unwilling to draw any conclusions at this time simply because I have no proof one way or the other. I can't find any other reason for their posting about kush at this stage other than the fact that at this point, kush was a highly uncontroversial target, most active players in the thread at this stage are all imploring kush to shape up if he is town and for good reason.
Useless paragraph. Yes he was controversial, this was AFTER DP mega-power pushed for kush. That does not mean that everyone wanted him dead.Eventually, debears responds to Z-BosoN's case against him in the
following post. In this post(it and Z-BosoN's eventual response are both massive, every time I read them I find out more things that are damning/exonerating about the two of them)
wtf are you talking about?he again actually makes a lot of sense to me, with the major thing I don't really buy being his 180 on Djodref.
That was one of the arguments I had presented on my case against him, which you just happened to say it was weak!!!Especially since I don't really consider Djodref to have posted in a way that would suggest to me that he should be excused. In my mind all of the lurky players are still somewhat suspicious, and has been from the start, at the very best they are null reads, just dropping a line about coaches and then dropping the matter seems scummy to me.
Use. Less.Also, I find the fact that debears has pretty much made no comments about
anyone other than Z-BosoN and kush once the wagon was started. For all his talk about not tunnelling kush, he sure seems to be tunnelling pretty hard. Or at the very least, seems intent on defending himself more than anything else. His post with regards to the lurkers came only once Z-BosoN specifically asked him to do so. He did promise a case against me however, so I guess I'll start popping the popcorn.
Finally I would like to address Z-BosoN's reply to debears final defense if I can call it that.
(clicky) Here he addresses debears final post, a post which like I just pointed out says reasonable things.
This all leads me to believe Z-BosoN is suffering from massive confirmation bias. He has for some reason decided that debears is scum a long time ago, and now every single argument debears makes is scummy to him. I'm inclined to think Z-BosoN is town because of this, confirmation bias isn't something scum would suffer from, since they don't need to believe anything, they
know.
WhaaaAAaaaAaaAaAatT? Ok, this post has so much crap in it that Ima stop right here and just answer everything at once. It is however not very helpful, because even if debears is scum, him defending himself against what I consider to be unjustified criticism is hardly something he can be blamed for. I would however like to see him post more about other players than Z-BosoN, and hopefully he will have time to do so now since Z-BosoN has at least seemingly decided to let things rest for a while, which I think can only be good for us.
So to end this, I would like to put a
FoS on debears not based on Z-BosoN's case, but based on the following points, as hinted at above.
- debears' has mainly used his posting to defend himself. This is not unreasonable on its own, especially since I myself have pointed out that he was unjustifiably attacked at some points.
- His inconsistency with regards to djodref and Z-BosoN. Neither of them really had convincing arguments to counter his initial suspicions of them, yet he went after only Z-BosoN while forgiving Djodref. I'm thinking he might have pounced on Z-BosoN's willingness to post using rushed statements along with taking the chance of free-riding on my own suspicions that I had at the time.
- His cases against Z-BosoN have not really pointed out all that much scumminess in my mind. They have just been about refuting Z-BosoN's attacks. So I must then conclude that his willingness to lynch Z-BosoN over kush is either scum motivated or some kind of involuntary OMGUS.
So to sum this up, I'm thinking that Z-BosoN is town, his play is just too emotional and full of confirmation bias to me to suggest anything else and I do not think that he would or even could fake that. Debears might be scum, but I don't think we have enough proof to say that he is scummy enough to lynch D2, not yet anyway. In my mind he still has a path to redemption and I think we should at least give him that possibility as I'm not convinced that they can't both be town.
Given that, my town reads right now amount to DarthPunk for obvious reason, Z-BosoN as stated above and SDM(mostly a feel read right now, but he has made sense from what I've seen so far) and I'm leaning slightly scummy on debears. That being said, I will probably spend the next couple of days focusing on the players that I have not mentioned in this thread. Mostly because at this point, I consider the debears vs Z-BosoN case closed unless something earth shattering happens.
EPT
