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On September 30 2012 17:13 Z-BosoN wrote:So I woke up a couple of hours earlier than I should have. Instead of going back to sleep, I decide to go read some filters. Sometimes I hate this game rofl. Anyways, I will agree with one thing DP said, alsn is scummy as shit. Look at his stance on kush throughout the thread. Brief timeline here: ACT I - Kush. If you are scummy like last game, I will lynch you no matter what.+ Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 16:54 Alsn wrote:Hey everyone, just woke up and was about to check when the game was supposed to start. Imagine my surprise when it's already started! Although looking closely the game started as I went to sleep, so I wouldn't have been able to participate until now either way. So in any case, I'm Alsn, I like logic. My previous mafia games so far amount to a single one, a game where I was NKd N1 as Vanilla Townie. My filter for that game can be found here. Other than that I have only ever played SC2 Mafia in any significant amounts(a game while using the same core rules, plays extremely different due to the time constraints and limits on discussion). If you are interested, I was also active in the /obs QT discussion of NMMXXVII which can be found here. So, with that out of the way, I read the first few posts and saw that this game continues the trend of lurker policy lynching. I agree that there needs to be pressure on scum to actually post, since without scum posts to analyse all the scumhunting in the world will almost certainly only turn up townies(due to lurkers generally being null reads). That said, I followed Tl Mafia LVII wherein there was a lot of discussion about lynching "trolly meta" players and I would like to take that one step further. Kush, while I realize that you have a posting style which by its nature is very confrontational and inflammatory, I feel that unless you actually provide some concrete analysis without using almost purely OMGUS argumentation that it is in town's best interest to just straight up lynch you right away. Simply put, unless your cases actually provide substance then I think you will just be a late game liability for town, mostly giving everyone a null read and potentially forcing people to make a town or scum read on you without having much of an idea what you are. So to sum up, kush, I can definitely forgive you for your "style" of posting but I will not under any circumstance forgive you for posting shitty content, just like I will not forgive anyone else for doing so either. Understand that I'm not singling you out as a target, I'm using your history as an example for what I consider scummy play. Now, on to actually read the thread and see if I can respond to something. On September 28 2012 17:56 Alsn wrote:Wow, upon reading the thread I realise that kush has been following the exact pattern I just now specified to be the way not to play if he wanted to absolve himself in my eyes. In fact, I could go back to my initial posts to him in NMMXXV saying almost the exact same thing. As such, I think I have no choice but to cast a: FoS kushm4stakush, in order for me to let up, I want you to stop it with your ridiculous knee-jerk play and actually point out why you think other people are scummy as opposed to why you yourself is so obviously town. While the following idiom is quite ironic in a forum game, actions speak louder than words and you defending yourself is just that, meaningless words. Start proving to everyone that you are concerned with finding scum instead of worrying about your silly streak. That being said, I think everyone else is jumping the gun here, kush is an extremely easy target to pick on, especially since he almost never seems to think before he posts. The scumslip that Darth and others pointed out can definitely be seen as damning. However, I am not inclined to agree with the following post from Darth: Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 13:46 DarthPunk wrote:I am not flaming Kush. I am legitimately scum hunting. The contrast in this situation, to the one with shiao, are so stark that there is no point even bringing it up. You will know when I am flaming when you see it, and even then it is not really that big a scum tell. I can tell the difference between Scummy town and actual scum, and it is not 'illogical' to be able to do this. Kush right now is not scummy town. He has slipped HUGELY. He is conforming to his previous scum meta. Seriously...
There is no explanation for his town read on me. The only reason he would say that is if he was scum. This last part seems to overly simplify the matter to me. The only reason? I myself can see a few reasons, but I would like kush to reply himself before I comment further as I don't want to give him an easy out. I can state for the record that unless kush shapes up considerably, I'm all in favour of lynching him. Simply because him playing like his normal self would be a liability for town later on due to his inclination to just defend himself over hunting scum. However, I definitely want to give him the benefit of the doubt and allow him to actually try and show that he has town's best interest in mind. So until then, while I definitely would like everyone to share their reads on kush so far, that is not enough for D1. We need to start exploring different possibilities because if we decide to lynch kush and he flips green, spending all of D1 talking about him will put us back at square one minus two townies. I'll make another post within an hour or two on another topic as I think I've made myself perfectly clear on where I stand on kush, but right now I need breakfast. On September 28 2012 22:03 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 21:38 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 21:31 Alsn wrote:
he has pointed out that he doesn't agree with your tunneling of kush. I find it astonishing that you 'interpret' debears' post that way in context of your view of Z-Boson. The way in which you paraphrase things whilst obscuring the truth/ put your own angle on things has me very concerned. Astonishing how? I would like you to explain what's so amazingly pro-town about tunneling kush from the very beginning. I find the risks of that approach to be very high from a town perspective. There are two scenarios: A) He flips green, and unless he during the day completely changed his character we will have almost no way of distinguishing who among the people who pushed for his lynch were scum and who were town. B) He flips scum, at this point I just don't find that likely enough to risk A) happening. That fact alone is enough for me to see that post of debears as entirely reasonable, since both of you at the time were basically calling out kush for every single post he was making(for good reason, but not if that's the only thing you are doing). On September 29 2012 00:24 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 22:39 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 22:03 Alsn wrote:On September 28 2012 21:38 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 21:31 Alsn wrote:
he has pointed out that he doesn't agree with your tunneling of kush. I find it astonishing that you 'interpret' debears' post that way in context of your view of Z-Boson. The way in which you paraphrase things whilst obscuring the truth/ put your own angle on things has me very concerned. Astonishing how? I would like you to explain what's so amazingly pro-town about tunneling kush from the very beginning. I find the risks of that approach to be very high from a town perspective. There are two scenarios: A) He flips green, and unless he during the day completely changed his character we will have almost no way of distinguishing who among the people who pushed for his lynch were scum and who were town. B) He flips scum, at this point I just don't find that likely enough to risk A) happening. That fact alone is enough for me to see that post of debears as entirely reasonable, since both of you at the time were basically calling out kush for every single post he was making(for good reason, but not if that's the only thing you are doing). I was not just looking at Kush. I was looking at the reactions to my case on kush also, Namely debears. As far as I am concerned Kush is scum and therefore it is best for town to lynch him. I like to focus on one thing at a time. Especially when he is incredibly scummy and has SCUM SLIPPED It is a common scum hunting technique and has been recommended in Several postgames. Obviously It was not to the exclusion of all others because I am now looking at you and debears. If there was nothing to go on I would have changed tac. Turns out he is scum. So I try and get him lynched. Savvy? On September 28 2012 22:03 Alsn wrote:
That fact alone is enough for me to see that post of debears as entirely reasonable, since both of you at the time were basically calling out kush for every single post he was making(for good reason, but not if that's the only thing you are doing). So you don't find Kush likely to flip scum? good to know. Z -Boson hardly called out kush. I made a case. I was not tunnelling. (but I see that is the misconception you are trying to present) If by some miracle he flips green there is still a lot of info to go off. Your premise iswrong and thus your conclusions are wrong. I was calling out Kush for good reason? and at the same time Debears was entirely reasonable in shutting that down? ##FoS ALSN Given the evidence so far no, I don't, and frankly I don't see why that's so hard to believe. Given his history, it should be easy to see for anyone that while he has different town and scum metas(as pointed out by Hapahauli in the obs QT of NMMXVII), his comments so far this game is entirely in line with the way he usually posts during D1. Basically just writing up whatever is on his mind. That to me doesn't really increase or decrease the chances of him flipping either way(but the setup of the game says all else being equal, 75% of the players are green, 25% are scum) Yes, you called him out for good reason because his arguments(like so many times before this game) make little to no sense. But right now the only thing I really agree actually points to him being scum is what you call his scum slip. I just do not agree with you of just how damning that statement is. The first thing that sprang to mind when I saw you quoting that was simply that townie was an odd word to use, why not use player? But a confirmed scum slip? Come on, it's not like he said something that is entirely outside the realm of possibility for a town player to say. "Townie" wouldn't be the word I'd use, but I just can't see it as that obvious a scum slip. I'll accept that you are not necessarily wrong for thinking so however. Given that there are no other developments then sure, I'll admit that there's at least a higher chance of kush being scum than a random lurker being scum. But I would really like it if we could at least try to get better odds than that. Best case scenario for me would be actually having everyone talk, present cases and opinions and if no one else presents themselves as scummy, then and only then will I roll the dice on kush. Remember, there are 3 scum, not only one. Who knows, if he's scum as you say, he might look even scummier by lynch time. The case being what it is with kush, I can see now that what you were doing wasn't tunneling per se. However, I think you are doing the very thing you are accusing me of doing where you say debears was trying to "shut down" the case against kush. Like I've said several times now, that's not at all how I interpreted it, only that we shouldn't limit ourselves to a single discussion topic which at the time I felt debears was trying to suggest. Something that I happen to agree with. Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 22:39 DarthPunk wrote:I made a case. I was not tunnelling. (but I see that is the misconception you are trying to present) If by some miracle he flips green there is still a lot of info to go off. Your premise iswrong and thus your conclusions are wrong. This statement makes little sense to me. You say you were not tunneling, which I can now appreciate as probably true, but up until recently was not clear at all to me(and probably not to anyone else either). You had made quite a lot of posts in a row with kush as the only topic, as well as trying to convince others in the thread that he absolutely, 100%, no doubt whatsoever must be scum. I didn't find it unreasonable that someone would point that fact out to you. My "premise" was simply that if I find an argument reasonable, someone else trying to poke holes in that argument might not have the same motivations as myself, thus they are suspicious. The bolded line is ridiculous however, especially in context with the sentence before it. What makes you so sure that we would have "a lot of info to go off" in the case of everyone tunneling kush and us lynching him? My A) vs. B) scenario that you are referring to was dependent on the hypothetical scenario of everyone tunneling kush(which I already explained seemed to be where things were going at the time). I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you misunderstood what I was trying to say instead of deliberately using a red herring to try and discredit me. With that in mind, based on your willingness to put yourself out there, I have a slight town read on you. On September 29 2012 18:17 Alsn wrote:
First, I'd like to start things with stating so far D1 has pretty much lived up to my exact nightmare scenario that I speculated about when arguing with DP yesterday. Everyone is voting kush with only very little discussion about any other topic(mainly, the debears-boson exchange).
Looking at the vote count, the last official count says 7, and now corrosion added his vote for a total of 8. With myself that would be 9, the exact number of town in this game. From my point of view, unless kushm4sta, Djodref and Lesrah are the 3 scum, there are scum pushing this lynch.
Given that, I'm really starting to dislike this lynch. I agree however that kush has been mostly concerned with defending himself against perceived injustice rather than actually trying to hunt scum, this still does not convince me that he is scum. Lynching scum with an overwhelming majority D1 just seems like way too improbably. Sure, if we had to fight tooth and nail to get 7 votes, I might buy it, but that's not the case. It seems to me there must be scum sheeping onto this lynch.
Like I've stated before I can go along with the kush lynch, but I'd rather try and lynch my top scum read at this point and with the current developments, I see a kush lynch more as a last resort than my main scum read. Unfortunately, this argument is only available to people who have yet to vote and are town, as well as to scum since other than myself only scum are aware of my alignment. For everyone else, the "unless a, b and c are scum" argument will include me.
My argument is at least enough to convince myself, so I'll be scouring the thread for the next couple of hours to see if my "gut scum reads" so far have any merit and if so push that/those case(s) instead. If it turns out that they are going nowhere, I will vote kush. But I still feel we have enough time to at least have a discussion on the topic of "just wtf is going on here?!". On September 29 2012 18:28 Alsn wrote:
A quick addendum, I'm aware that scum pushing the lynch does not exonerate kush since they could be bussing him. However, given the assumption that kush is scum and there are active scum among the voters, I just find it more likely that they would try and find another solution than bussing, especially since it's D1. That's my main reason for not being convinced that kush is scum. On September 29 2012 21:15 Alsn wrote:
I've been doing some soul searching and I'm starting to agree that it's not worth it to try and push any other cases right now.
Mostly because my entire premise was that I was thinking it to be unlikely for kush to be scum. I realise that after trying to put into words why I think that is so, I have nothing other than the fact that I "feel" him to be town, which is a really stupid reason for absolving him. I thought I could back it up by saying he's been pressured to hard, there's no way he's responsible for not scum hunting. But in the end, I can't find a logical reason to forgive him if I exclude my own gut feeling from the equation.
I think now that my best option is to hold on to whatever small reads I have(because while I have some suspicions, I don't think they are rock solid) until after the lynch is over. Because at least then, we will have more information.
So for now, although my gut is screaming at me, I'll commit to voting for kush, mostly because most of what I said about BosoN has returned somewhat satisfactory answers, I really don't like the way a lot of people got away with not basically posting anything at all(I'm looking at you, Djodref, corrosion, Omniscient, RemedySC). I think that's probably what irks me the most, the thing I was most hoping would not happen, did happen.
##Vote: kushm4sta sup scum? anyone?
Yep. This.
As you have summed up this case so well I guess I can skip it. I will be posting on Debears and Djo still.
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Hi, just woke up, skimmed through the last couple of pages.
Not sure if you even want to know, but at the time of, as you say, act III - IV, I had a gut feeling that things were going way too easy for kush to be scum, and that made me doubt the motivations of DarthPunk, as well as the fact that I had found you pretty scummy from the day before. When I was going to make a case against either of you however, I only found the few questions I asked DP about, but which I then later found out was just him being rightfully(I thought he was out to get me for no apparent reason) suspicious of me.
Then as I went through your filter, you started to make more and more sense, just like I and everyone else has pointed out, your case against debears now has merit, which pretty much meant that I just didn't find you as scummy as I thought you would be. So yea, the two scum reads that I didn't actually have, weren't actually scummy. Trying to make a case against someone for no reason seemed like inherently anti-town, so I just gave up when I thought about just why I thought kush was town, what had he done that helped town? While I imagine being a victim like that would be pretty harsh, nothing he had done had tried to show that he really was a victim, so I went along with the lynch. I had to vote for someone.
That being said, this discussion helps no one, If you think I'm scummy, go ahead and think so, I won't be lynched for another 2,5 days either way so I'll have tons of time to make myself useful. Like I said to kush, actions speak louder than words, I don't expect anyone to judge me in any other way.
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I will be away from the thread for a few hours at least, so don't expect anything more from me for a little while at least.
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On September 30 2012 18:10 Alsn wrote:
Hi, just woke up, skimmed through the last couple of pages.
Not sure if you even want to know, but at the time of, as you say, act III - IV, I had a gut feeling that things were going way too easy for kush to be scum, and that made me doubt the motivations of DarthPunk, as well as the fact that I had found you pretty scummy from the day before. When I was going to make a case against either of you however, I only found the few questions I asked DP about, but which I then later found out was just him being rightfully(I thought he was out to get me for no apparent reason) suspicious of me.
Then as I went through your filter, you started to make more and more sense, just like I and everyone else has pointed out, your case against debears now has merit, which pretty much meant that I just didn't find you as scummy as I thought you would be. So yea, the two scum reads that I didn't actually have, weren't actually scummy. Trying to make a case against someone for no reason seemed like inherently anti-town, so I just gave up when I thought about just why I thought kush was town, what had he done that helped town? While I imagine being a victim like that would be pretty harsh, nothing he had done had tried to show that he really was a victim, so I went along with the lynch. I had to vote for someone.
That being said, this discussion helps no one, If you think I'm scummy, go ahead and think so, I won't be lynched for another 2,5 days either way so I'll have tons of time to make myself useful. Like I said to kush, actions speak louder than words, I don't expect anyone to judge me in any other way.
I thought you had a town read on me? But after that I am one of your scum reads and you try to build a case on me? That sort of doesn't match up with the afore mentioned town read.
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On September 30 2012 18:50 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 18:10 Alsn wrote:
Hi, just woke up, skimmed through the last couple of pages.
Not sure if you even want to know, but at the time of, as you say, act III - IV, I had a gut feeling that things were going way too easy for kush to be scum, and that made me doubt the motivations of DarthPunk, as well as the fact that I had found you pretty scummy from the day before. When I was going to make a case against either of you however, I only found the few questions I asked DP about, but which I then later found out was just him being rightfully(I thought he was out to get me for no apparent reason) suspicious of me.
Then as I went through your filter, you started to make more and more sense, just like I and everyone else has pointed out, your case against debears now has merit, which pretty much meant that I just didn't find you as scummy as I thought you would be. So yea, the two scum reads that I didn't actually have, weren't actually scummy. Trying to make a case against someone for no reason seemed like inherently anti-town, so I just gave up when I thought about just why I thought kush was town, what had he done that helped town? While I imagine being a victim like that would be pretty harsh, nothing he had done had tried to show that he really was a victim, so I went along with the lynch. I had to vote for someone.
That being said, this discussion helps no one, If you think I'm scummy, go ahead and think so, I won't be lynched for another 2,5 days either way so I'll have tons of time to make myself useful. Like I said to kush, actions speak louder than words, I don't expect anyone to judge me in any other way. I thought you had a town read on me? But after that I am one of your scum reads and you try to build a case on me? That sort of doesn't match up with the afore mentioned town read. Now you're just misunderstanding me, I had a gut scum read on you due to me feeling unjustifiably attacked. I didn't want to say that out loud while I was questioning you at the time. But like I explained when I examined your filter as well as when you replied to me, things became much clearer and thus I re-evaluated you.
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And now I'm actually leaving, be back later.
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After last night's post I've decide the lurker I found most suspicious is suspicious enough to call out. So far I've seen zero scum hunting from Djo. The best attempts I see are these two:
+ Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 13:17 Djodref wrote:Hey, guys ! I would like to bring up something that struck me in the post of corrosion about Darth. I didn't like this post in general because it didn't match my interpretations of the early events between Kush and Darth but I understand that our views can differ. But looking back at corrosion filter, he's trying to find scummy motivation for Darth to give his links to his previous game. Check the bolded part in the spoiler. + Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 04:29 corrosion wrote:I'm just going to address the "fight" between Darth and Kush. I'm going to focus on Darth for now. Looking more closely into Kush's contribution is something I think should be done well ahead of lynch time. I'm actually going to start by telling about some thoughts I had after reading my role PM. I was trying to figure out what players town should be focusing on. I had obsed NMMXXVII, and came to the conclusion that it might be reasonable to go after any player except Kush. I figured that Kush was going to make a lot of posts anyway, so I was thinking that we could get a good analysis of him without any early pressure. One of the first things Darth did was to antagonize Kush: + Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 08:34 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 06:58 kushm4sta wrote:
@sonic
getting everyone's thoughts on lurker policy is important. Don't argue about it but share your views on the matter please.. No it's not. It is simply a mechanism to get the discussion going and allows scum to seem to participate and to potentially mislynch an inactive townie. Any more talk of policy will get you FoS'd. I'm thinking that this could easily be an attempt to start a fight that would result in derailing the thread. Kush responded the way I expected him to, and these two posters exchanged arguments back and forth. In the middle of this, Darth made a remark against lurkers, but quickly changed his focus back on Kush. Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 10:36 DarthPunk wrote:
So is everyone just going to drop their welcome posts and then afk? I don't see why he should make this comment at this time, since it wasn't going to get looked at while there was a fight going on. Shortly afterwards, Kush makes his supposed scum slip. Darth jumps on it, and shortly afterwards he posts about his previous mafia games. I've watched the game where he played cop, and seen that he and Shady argued a lot on D1. So I was thinking that this seems to be Darth's town meta. But I also asked myself why he did post about his previous games at this point in time. Maybe this was all intentional. Suppose he suddenly remembered that game. He might not have wanted people to look at those games earlier, but now he realized that if he posted them he would be able to establish a town read on himself. I'm not sure if this is a strong case against Darth at the moment. I would like some input from the more experienced players here. If Kush hadn't made that slip, I think the derailing argument would have looked strong. Now it doesn't look so strong, because we've actually gotten new information. I'm not saying that I'm sure the scum slip is an actual slip, but if it is and it results in a succesful lynch, I think town got very lucky. Scum usually wouldn't slip in such an obvious manner. His cases against Debears and Alsn are something that might reveal useful information, but I've not studied them closely yet. I still think that Kush seems more suspicious when everything is taken into consideration but with all the focus that has been on him, I'm sure someone else can post a decent case on him before we need to consider our first lynch. But Darth was just answering a request from debears ! + Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 11:39 debears wrote:
As I said, I want a quick look at you first. Second, there isn't much more to add to what you said about it. It does give off the impression of extra information. I think corrosion was trying to cast scummy shadow on Darth to shift the focus on Kush. I did so by omitting/deforming some parts of the thread history. Also, he fits my definition of a semi-lurker trying to blend in. So, corrosion, until I got your explanations about this point, I got my eyes on you. ##FoS: corrosion
Here he brings up a point that had been brought up by Darth already, basically adding nothing on your own.
+ Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 16:19 Djodref wrote:
Also I don't understand you stances on my alignment. After your first case on me, I thought you were suspicious of me.
Later on, you recommend me to pm marv for help. You certainly know that marv is the town coach. So did you just let go your suspicions and consider me as town newbie ?
Your town motivation would be to help a fellow citizen but in this case why do you think I'm town ?
Your mafia motivation would be budding me and show pro-town behavior (unfortunately while slipping).
And I would like you to answer my questions clearly in the future and not throwing me a question back.
Again, this is a completely ripping off an earlier argument by Boson, adding nothing new. Aside from those two attempts, he's keeping his post count relatively high while not posting anything of value.
So yeah, I've encouraged newbies to post, but this is exactly what I call posting for the sake of posting. Adding nothing new and just getting along, and that's scummy. Further...
On September 30 2012 06:52 Djodref wrote:@AlsnI understand why I'm on your null read list so far but I'd like to point out something to you and everybody. Here is the post where Kush has made his scumslip. + Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 11:22 kushm4sta wrote:should not have looked at thread again now I have to respond... @debears yeah it's like exactly the same as last game. That's because I think up my first post almost word for word before I even get my roll pm. I did not get to follow through with it last game though since I rolled scum. Also sorry for the semiflame war. It was not that bad. Also he started it. Aside from that, I think the plan to start tunneling during the second half of the day is really bad. It helped us a lot last game as scum because we had an excuse not to vote for the people we were fosing. Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 11:09 Djodref wrote:@Kush thank you now I won't be nk Was it also a joke ? How can you be so sure you are not going to be NKed ? Because the most active townie is tunneling me? Obviously I'm not going to be nk. And yes it was a joke but the best jokes have truth to them. It is a joke in that it's purpose was to be funny since obviously it doesn't help the scumhunt or my defense. I'm actually proud of this one because he did it while answering one of my questions ^^ I think I deserve some town credit for that one even if I did buy kush's explanations about this slip later on.
This is not the first time you're trying to give yourself townie points for asking a question to Kush. Last time it was more thinly veiled but it still caught my attention:
On September 28 2012 15:00 Djodref wrote:
Nevertheless, Kush slipped by answering my question about the NK.
Asking Kush the question doesn't give you townie points. The thing with a scum slip is that it's obviously something which happens unintentionally, so if you were both scum it obviously wasn't planned anyway (or at least highly unlikely to have been). To be fair he did at least engage in the discussion, which can be seen as scum hunting, but not until Darth had aggresively called out Kush. What follows is this:
On September 28 2012 13:27 Djodref wrote:
It's a little illogical because you are saying that he looks scummy as town or as scum and yet you are able to make the difference between and scummy town Kush and a scummy scum Kush.
I also read through the last Newbie Mini Mafia games and I must agree he didn't mention night kills so much when he was town iirc.
I'm looking forward his explanations about his town read on you and I hope more people can give their opinion about your case on Kush.
As I was also reading the game where you were mafia roleblocker and I saw your ability to flame with Shiaopi, I'm not buying it yet.
Casting doubts on Darth's suspicion, downplaying it as a flame war. Even if Darth would be able to flame Kush as scum (he probably would), it's not the focus here, there are actually good arguments supporting the accusations.
On September 28 2012 15:00 Djodref wrote:
@Everyone
I'm going to take a stance on Kush when he explains why he thinks Darth to be town.
Here he is keeping his options open, which is a convenient strategy in a pressured situation. Then actually buying into Kush's silly explanation:
On September 28 2012 21:18 Djodref wrote:
Also I'm accepting Kush explanation for calling Darth a townie but it would be better for him to refrain calling someone a townie or a scum without explanations later on...
Finally jumping the wagon with weak reasoning (later claiming my post helped pursaude him):
On September 29 2012 12:53 Djodref wrote:I did accept his explanation at the time but I cannot let him off the hook for the posts where he said he didn't care about this game anymore. Also I really don't like the posts where he implies that debears is his scum partner. I don't see any pro-town motivation for such posts. That's why he's getting my vote now. ##Vote: kushm4staAlso a side note for the guys having trouble with my pseudo, you can call me Djo if you want 
I realize this can be the result of him being a total newbie, but his posts are really unconvincing and worthy of suspicion.
##FOS: Djodref
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On September 30 2012 17:13 Z-BosoN wrote:So I woke up a couple of hours earlier than I should have. Instead of going back to sleep, I decide to go read some filters. Sometimes I hate this game rofl. Anyways, I will agree with one thing DP said, alsn is scummy as shit. Look at his stance on kush throughout the thread. Brief timeline here: ACT I - Kush. If you are scummy like last game, I will lynch you no matter what.+ Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 16:54 Alsn wrote:Hey everyone, just woke up and was about to check when the game was supposed to start. Imagine my surprise when it's already started! Although looking closely the game started as I went to sleep, so I wouldn't have been able to participate until now either way. So in any case, I'm Alsn, I like logic. My previous mafia games so far amount to a single one, a game where I was NKd N1 as Vanilla Townie. My filter for that game can be found here. Other than that I have only ever played SC2 Mafia in any significant amounts(a game while using the same core rules, plays extremely different due to the time constraints and limits on discussion). If you are interested, I was also active in the /obs QT discussion of NMMXXVII which can be found here. So, with that out of the way, I read the first few posts and saw that this game continues the trend of lurker policy lynching. I agree that there needs to be pressure on scum to actually post, since without scum posts to analyse all the scumhunting in the world will almost certainly only turn up townies(due to lurkers generally being null reads). That said, I followed Tl Mafia LVII wherein there was a lot of discussion about lynching "trolly meta" players and I would like to take that one step further. Kush, while I realize that you have a posting style which by its nature is very confrontational and inflammatory, I feel that unless you actually provide some concrete analysis without using almost purely OMGUS argumentation that it is in town's best interest to just straight up lynch you right away. Simply put, unless your cases actually provide substance then I think you will just be a late game liability for town, mostly giving everyone a null read and potentially forcing people to make a town or scum read on you without having much of an idea what you are. So to sum up, kush, I can definitely forgive you for your "style" of posting but I will not under any circumstance forgive you for posting shitty content, just like I will not forgive anyone else for doing so either. Understand that I'm not singling you out as a target, I'm using your history as an example for what I consider scummy play. Now, on to actually read the thread and see if I can respond to something. On September 28 2012 17:56 Alsn wrote:Wow, upon reading the thread I realise that kush has been following the exact pattern I just now specified to be the way not to play if he wanted to absolve himself in my eyes. In fact, I could go back to my initial posts to him in NMMXXV saying almost the exact same thing. As such, I think I have no choice but to cast a: FoS kushm4stakush, in order for me to let up, I want you to stop it with your ridiculous knee-jerk play and actually point out why you think other people are scummy as opposed to why you yourself is so obviously town. While the following idiom is quite ironic in a forum game, actions speak louder than words and you defending yourself is just that, meaningless words. Start proving to everyone that you are concerned with finding scum instead of worrying about your silly streak. That being said, I think everyone else is jumping the gun here, kush is an extremely easy target to pick on, especially since he almost never seems to think before he posts. The scumslip that Darth and others pointed out can definitely be seen as damning. However, I am not inclined to agree with the following post from Darth: Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 13:46 DarthPunk wrote:I am not flaming Kush. I am legitimately scum hunting. The contrast in this situation, to the one with shiao, are so stark that there is no point even bringing it up. You will know when I am flaming when you see it, and even then it is not really that big a scum tell. I can tell the difference between Scummy town and actual scum, and it is not 'illogical' to be able to do this. Kush right now is not scummy town. He has slipped HUGELY. He is conforming to his previous scum meta. Seriously...
There is no explanation for his town read on me. The only reason he would say that is if he was scum. This last part seems to overly simplify the matter to me. The only reason? I myself can see a few reasons, but I would like kush to reply himself before I comment further as I don't want to give him an easy out. I can state for the record that unless kush shapes up considerably, I'm all in favour of lynching him. Simply because him playing like his normal self would be a liability for town later on due to his inclination to just defend himself over hunting scum. However, I definitely want to give him the benefit of the doubt and allow him to actually try and show that he has town's best interest in mind. So until then, while I definitely would like everyone to share their reads on kush so far, that is not enough for D1. We need to start exploring different possibilities because if we decide to lynch kush and he flips green, spending all of D1 talking about him will put us back at square one minus two townies. I'll make another post within an hour or two on another topic as I think I've made myself perfectly clear on where I stand on kush, but right now I need breakfast. On September 28 2012 22:03 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 21:38 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 21:31 Alsn wrote:
he has pointed out that he doesn't agree with your tunneling of kush. I find it astonishing that you 'interpret' debears' post that way in context of your view of Z-Boson. The way in which you paraphrase things whilst obscuring the truth/ put your own angle on things has me very concerned. Astonishing how? I would like you to explain what's so amazingly pro-town about tunneling kush from the very beginning. I find the risks of that approach to be very high from a town perspective. There are two scenarios: A) He flips green, and unless he during the day completely changed his character we will have almost no way of distinguishing who among the people who pushed for his lynch were scum and who were town. B) He flips scum, at this point I just don't find that likely enough to risk A) happening. That fact alone is enough for me to see that post of debears as entirely reasonable, since both of you at the time were basically calling out kush for every single post he was making(for good reason, but not if that's the only thing you are doing). On September 29 2012 00:24 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 22:39 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 22:03 Alsn wrote:On September 28 2012 21:38 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 21:31 Alsn wrote:
he has pointed out that he doesn't agree with your tunneling of kush. I find it astonishing that you 'interpret' debears' post that way in context of your view of Z-Boson. The way in which you paraphrase things whilst obscuring the truth/ put your own angle on things has me very concerned. Astonishing how? I would like you to explain what's so amazingly pro-town about tunneling kush from the very beginning. I find the risks of that approach to be very high from a town perspective. There are two scenarios: A) He flips green, and unless he during the day completely changed his character we will have almost no way of distinguishing who among the people who pushed for his lynch were scum and who were town. B) He flips scum, at this point I just don't find that likely enough to risk A) happening. That fact alone is enough for me to see that post of debears as entirely reasonable, since both of you at the time were basically calling out kush for every single post he was making(for good reason, but not if that's the only thing you are doing). I was not just looking at Kush. I was looking at the reactions to my case on kush also, Namely debears. As far as I am concerned Kush is scum and therefore it is best for town to lynch him. I like to focus on one thing at a time. Especially when he is incredibly scummy and has SCUM SLIPPED It is a common scum hunting technique and has been recommended in Several postgames. Obviously It was not to the exclusion of all others because I am now looking at you and debears. If there was nothing to go on I would have changed tac. Turns out he is scum. So I try and get him lynched. Savvy? On September 28 2012 22:03 Alsn wrote:
That fact alone is enough for me to see that post of debears as entirely reasonable, since both of you at the time were basically calling out kush for every single post he was making(for good reason, but not if that's the only thing you are doing). So you don't find Kush likely to flip scum? good to know. Z -Boson hardly called out kush. I made a case. I was not tunnelling. (but I see that is the misconception you are trying to present) If by some miracle he flips green there is still a lot of info to go off. Your premise iswrong and thus your conclusions are wrong. I was calling out Kush for good reason? and at the same time Debears was entirely reasonable in shutting that down? ##FoS ALSN Given the evidence so far no, I don't, and frankly I don't see why that's so hard to believe. Given his history, it should be easy to see for anyone that while he has different town and scum metas(as pointed out by Hapahauli in the obs QT of NMMXVII), his comments so far this game is entirely in line with the way he usually posts during D1. Basically just writing up whatever is on his mind. That to me doesn't really increase or decrease the chances of him flipping either way(but the setup of the game says all else being equal, 75% of the players are green, 25% are scum) Yes, you called him out for good reason because his arguments(like so many times before this game) make little to no sense. But right now the only thing I really agree actually points to him being scum is what you call his scum slip. I just do not agree with you of just how damning that statement is. The first thing that sprang to mind when I saw you quoting that was simply that townie was an odd word to use, why not use player? But a confirmed scum slip? Come on, it's not like he said something that is entirely outside the realm of possibility for a town player to say. "Townie" wouldn't be the word I'd use, but I just can't see it as that obvious a scum slip. I'll accept that you are not necessarily wrong for thinking so however. Given that there are no other developments then sure, I'll admit that there's at least a higher chance of kush being scum than a random lurker being scum. But I would really like it if we could at least try to get better odds than that. Best case scenario for me would be actually having everyone talk, present cases and opinions and if no one else presents themselves as scummy, then and only then will I roll the dice on kush. Remember, there are 3 scum, not only one. Who knows, if he's scum as you say, he might look even scummier by lynch time. The case being what it is with kush, I can see now that what you were doing wasn't tunneling per se. However, I think you are doing the very thing you are accusing me of doing where you say debears was trying to "shut down" the case against kush. Like I've said several times now, that's not at all how I interpreted it, only that we shouldn't limit ourselves to a single discussion topic which at the time I felt debears was trying to suggest. Something that I happen to agree with. Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 22:39 DarthPunk wrote:I made a case. I was not tunnelling. (but I see that is the misconception you are trying to present) If by some miracle he flips green there is still a lot of info to go off. Your premise iswrong and thus your conclusions are wrong. This statement makes little sense to me. You say you were not tunneling, which I can now appreciate as probably true, but up until recently was not clear at all to me(and probably not to anyone else either). You had made quite a lot of posts in a row with kush as the only topic, as well as trying to convince others in the thread that he absolutely, 100%, no doubt whatsoever must be scum. I didn't find it unreasonable that someone would point that fact out to you. My "premise" was simply that if I find an argument reasonable, someone else trying to poke holes in that argument might not have the same motivations as myself, thus they are suspicious. The bolded line is ridiculous however, especially in context with the sentence before it. What makes you so sure that we would have "a lot of info to go off" in the case of everyone tunneling kush and us lynching him? My A) vs. B) scenario that you are referring to was dependent on the hypothetical scenario of everyone tunneling kush(which I already explained seemed to be where things were going at the time). I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you misunderstood what I was trying to say instead of deliberately using a red herring to try and discredit me. With that in mind, based on your willingness to put yourself out there, I have a slight town read on you. On September 29 2012 18:17 Alsn wrote:
First, I'd like to start things with stating so far D1 has pretty much lived up to my exact nightmare scenario that I speculated about when arguing with DP yesterday. Everyone is voting kush with only very little discussion about any other topic(mainly, the debears-boson exchange).
Looking at the vote count, the last official count says 7, and now corrosion added his vote for a total of 8. With myself that would be 9, the exact number of town in this game. From my point of view, unless kushm4sta, Djodref and Lesrah are the 3 scum, there are scum pushing this lynch.
Given that, I'm really starting to dislike this lynch. I agree however that kush has been mostly concerned with defending himself against perceived injustice rather than actually trying to hunt scum, this still does not convince me that he is scum. Lynching scum with an overwhelming majority D1 just seems like way too improbably. Sure, if we had to fight tooth and nail to get 7 votes, I might buy it, but that's not the case. It seems to me there must be scum sheeping onto this lynch.
Like I've stated before I can go along with the kush lynch, but I'd rather try and lynch my top scum read at this point and with the current developments, I see a kush lynch more as a last resort than my main scum read. Unfortunately, this argument is only available to people who have yet to vote and are town, as well as to scum since other than myself only scum are aware of my alignment. For everyone else, the "unless a, b and c are scum" argument will include me.
My argument is at least enough to convince myself, so I'll be scouring the thread for the next couple of hours to see if my "gut scum reads" so far have any merit and if so push that/those case(s) instead. If it turns out that they are going nowhere, I will vote kush. But I still feel we have enough time to at least have a discussion on the topic of "just wtf is going on here?!". On September 29 2012 18:28 Alsn wrote:
A quick addendum, I'm aware that scum pushing the lynch does not exonerate kush since they could be bussing him. However, given the assumption that kush is scum and there are active scum among the voters, I just find it more likely that they would try and find another solution than bussing, especially since it's D1. That's my main reason for not being convinced that kush is scum. On September 29 2012 21:15 Alsn wrote:
I've been doing some soul searching and I'm starting to agree that it's not worth it to try and push any other cases right now.
Mostly because my entire premise was that I was thinking it to be unlikely for kush to be scum. I realise that after trying to put into words why I think that is so, I have nothing other than the fact that I "feel" him to be town, which is a really stupid reason for absolving him. I thought I could back it up by saying he's been pressured to hard, there's no way he's responsible for not scum hunting. But in the end, I can't find a logical reason to forgive him if I exclude my own gut feeling from the equation.
I think now that my best option is to hold on to whatever small reads I have(because while I have some suspicions, I don't think they are rock solid) until after the lynch is over. Because at least then, we will have more information.
So for now, although my gut is screaming at me, I'll commit to voting for kush, mostly because most of what I said about BosoN has returned somewhat satisfactory answers, I really don't like the way a lot of people got away with not basically posting anything at all(I'm looking at you, Djodref, corrosion, Omniscient, RemedySC). I think that's probably what irks me the most, the thing I was most hoping would not happen, did happen.
##Vote: kushm4sta sup scum? anyone?
I got a lot of thoughts on this case, but as I'm typing them out I realize I'd rather have Alsn respond in detail first. I'll just say I'm not convinced atm.
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On September 30 2012 20:29 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:After last night's post I've decide the lurker I found most suspicious is suspicious enough to call out. So far I've seen zero scum hunting from Djo. The best attempts I see are these two: + Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 13:17 Djodref wrote:Hey, guys ! I would like to bring up something that struck me in the post of corrosion about Darth. I didn't like this post in general because it didn't match my interpretations of the early events between Kush and Darth but I understand that our views can differ. But looking back at corrosion filter, he's trying to find scummy motivation for Darth to give his links to his previous game. Check the bolded part in the spoiler. + Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 04:29 corrosion wrote:I'm just going to address the "fight" between Darth and Kush. I'm going to focus on Darth for now. Looking more closely into Kush's contribution is something I think should be done well ahead of lynch time. I'm actually going to start by telling about some thoughts I had after reading my role PM. I was trying to figure out what players town should be focusing on. I had obsed NMMXXVII, and came to the conclusion that it might be reasonable to go after any player except Kush. I figured that Kush was going to make a lot of posts anyway, so I was thinking that we could get a good analysis of him without any early pressure. One of the first things Darth did was to antagonize Kush: + Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 08:34 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 06:58 kushm4sta wrote:
@sonic
getting everyone's thoughts on lurker policy is important. Don't argue about it but share your views on the matter please.. No it's not. It is simply a mechanism to get the discussion going and allows scum to seem to participate and to potentially mislynch an inactive townie. Any more talk of policy will get you FoS'd. I'm thinking that this could easily be an attempt to start a fight that would result in derailing the thread. Kush responded the way I expected him to, and these two posters exchanged arguments back and forth. In the middle of this, Darth made a remark against lurkers, but quickly changed his focus back on Kush. Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 10:36 DarthPunk wrote:
So is everyone just going to drop their welcome posts and then afk? I don't see why he should make this comment at this time, since it wasn't going to get looked at while there was a fight going on. Shortly afterwards, Kush makes his supposed scum slip. Darth jumps on it, and shortly afterwards he posts about his previous mafia games. I've watched the game where he played cop, and seen that he and Shady argued a lot on D1. So I was thinking that this seems to be Darth's town meta. But I also asked myself why he did post about his previous games at this point in time. Maybe this was all intentional. Suppose he suddenly remembered that game. He might not have wanted people to look at those games earlier, but now he realized that if he posted them he would be able to establish a town read on himself. I'm not sure if this is a strong case against Darth at the moment. I would like some input from the more experienced players here. If Kush hadn't made that slip, I think the derailing argument would have looked strong. Now it doesn't look so strong, because we've actually gotten new information. I'm not saying that I'm sure the scum slip is an actual slip, but if it is and it results in a succesful lynch, I think town got very lucky. Scum usually wouldn't slip in such an obvious manner. His cases against Debears and Alsn are something that might reveal useful information, but I've not studied them closely yet. I still think that Kush seems more suspicious when everything is taken into consideration but with all the focus that has been on him, I'm sure someone else can post a decent case on him before we need to consider our first lynch. But Darth was just answering a request from debears ! + Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 11:39 debears wrote:
As I said, I want a quick look at you first. Second, there isn't much more to add to what you said about it. It does give off the impression of extra information. I think corrosion was trying to cast scummy shadow on Darth to shift the focus on Kush. I did so by omitting/deforming some parts of the thread history. Also, he fits my definition of a semi-lurker trying to blend in. So, corrosion, until I got your explanations about this point, I got my eyes on you. ##FoS: corrosion Here he brings up a point that had been brought up by Darth already, basically adding nothing on your own. + Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 16:19 Djodref wrote:
Also I don't understand you stances on my alignment. After your first case on me, I thought you were suspicious of me.
Later on, you recommend me to pm marv for help. You certainly know that marv is the town coach. So did you just let go your suspicions and consider me as town newbie ?
Your town motivation would be to help a fellow citizen but in this case why do you think I'm town ?
Your mafia motivation would be budding me and show pro-town behavior (unfortunately while slipping).
And I would like you to answer my questions clearly in the future and not throwing me a question back. Again, this is a completely ripping off an earlier argument by Boson, adding nothing new. Aside from those two attempts, he's keeping his post count relatively high while not posting anything of value. So yeah, I've encouraged newbies to post, but this is exactly what I call posting for the sake of posting. Adding nothing new and just getting along, and that's scummy. Further... Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 06:52 Djodref wrote:@AlsnI understand why I'm on your null read list so far but I'd like to point out something to you and everybody. Here is the post where Kush has made his scumslip. + Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 11:22 kushm4sta wrote:should not have looked at thread again now I have to respond... @debears yeah it's like exactly the same as last game. That's because I think up my first post almost word for word before I even get my roll pm. I did not get to follow through with it last game though since I rolled scum. Also sorry for the semiflame war. It was not that bad. Also he started it. Aside from that, I think the plan to start tunneling during the second half of the day is really bad. It helped us a lot last game as scum because we had an excuse not to vote for the people we were fosing. Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 11:09 Djodref wrote:@Kush thank you now I won't be nk Was it also a joke ? How can you be so sure you are not going to be NKed ? Because the most active townie is tunneling me? Obviously I'm not going to be nk. And yes it was a joke but the best jokes have truth to them. It is a joke in that it's purpose was to be funny since obviously it doesn't help the scumhunt or my defense. I'm actually proud of this one because he did it while answering one of my questions ^^ I think I deserve some town credit for that one even if I did buy kush's explanations about this slip later on. This is not the first time you're trying to give yourself townie points for asking a question to Kush. Last time it was more thinly veiled but it still caught my attention: Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 15:00 Djodref wrote:
Nevertheless, Kush slipped by answering my question about the NK.
Asking Kush the question doesn't give you townie points. The thing with a scum slip is that it's obviously something which happens unintentionally, so if you were both scum it obviously wasn't planned anyway (or at least highly unlikely to have been). To be fair he did at least engage in the discussion, which can be seen as scum hunting, but not until Darth had aggresively called out Kush. What follows is this: Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 13:27 Djodref wrote:
It's a little illogical because you are saying that he looks scummy as town or as scum and yet you are able to make the difference between and scummy town Kush and a scummy scum Kush.
I also read through the last Newbie Mini Mafia games and I must agree he didn't mention night kills so much when he was town iirc.
I'm looking forward his explanations about his town read on you and I hope more people can give their opinion about your case on Kush.
As I was also reading the game where you were mafia roleblocker and I saw your ability to flame with Shiaopi, I'm not buying it yet.
Casting doubts on Darth's suspicion, downplaying it as a flame war. Even if Darth would be able to flame Kush as scum (he probably would), it's not the focus here, there are actually good arguments supporting the accusations. Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 15:00 Djodref wrote:
@Everyone
I'm going to take a stance on Kush when he explains why he thinks Darth to be town. Here he is keeping his options open, which is a convenient strategy in a pressured situation. Then actually buying into Kush's silly explanation: Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 21:18 Djodref wrote:
Also I'm accepting Kush explanation for calling Darth a townie but it would be better for him to refrain calling someone a townie or a scum without explanations later on... Finally jumping the wagon with weak reasoning (later claiming my post helped pursaude him): Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 12:53 Djodref wrote:I did accept his explanation at the time but I cannot let him off the hook for the posts where he said he didn't care about this game anymore. Also I really don't like the posts where he implies that debears is his scum partner. I don't see any pro-town motivation for such posts. That's why he's getting my vote now. ##Vote: kushm4staAlso a side note for the guys having trouble with my pseudo, you can call me Djo if you want I realize this can be the result of him being a total newbie, but his posts are really unconvincing and worthy of suspicion. ##FOS: Djodref
Yeah that stuff where he wants credit from the kush lynch is a bid scum tell. It is totally something that a scum bussing would do. Try and reap as much town cred as they possibly can from the lynch.
LOL Thanks guys 2 of my cases have been taken care of for me and There is a shit load of stuff on debears still, whom is probably the number one candidate for lynching IMO.
I have felt too lazy to make these cases all day and now I don;t have to. YAY!
I need to go to bed soon and I won't get up at 6am for the deadline, so I will make a final summary of my reads etc and then hang around for a bit in case anyone wants some questions answered or whatever.
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On September 30 2012 21:41 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 17:13 Z-BosoN wrote:So I woke up a couple of hours earlier than I should have. Instead of going back to sleep, I decide to go read some filters. Sometimes I hate this game rofl. Anyways, I will agree with one thing DP said, alsn is scummy as shit. Look at his stance on kush throughout the thread. Brief timeline here: ACT I - Kush. If you are scummy like last game, I will lynch you no matter what.+ Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 16:54 Alsn wrote:Hey everyone, just woke up and was about to check when the game was supposed to start. Imagine my surprise when it's already started! Although looking closely the game started as I went to sleep, so I wouldn't have been able to participate until now either way. So in any case, I'm Alsn, I like logic. My previous mafia games so far amount to a single one, a game where I was NKd N1 as Vanilla Townie. My filter for that game can be found here. Other than that I have only ever played SC2 Mafia in any significant amounts(a game while using the same core rules, plays extremely different due to the time constraints and limits on discussion). If you are interested, I was also active in the /obs QT discussion of NMMXXVII which can be found here. So, with that out of the way, I read the first few posts and saw that this game continues the trend of lurker policy lynching. I agree that there needs to be pressure on scum to actually post, since without scum posts to analyse all the scumhunting in the world will almost certainly only turn up townies(due to lurkers generally being null reads). That said, I followed Tl Mafia LVII wherein there was a lot of discussion about lynching "trolly meta" players and I would like to take that one step further. Kush, while I realize that you have a posting style which by its nature is very confrontational and inflammatory, I feel that unless you actually provide some concrete analysis without using almost purely OMGUS argumentation that it is in town's best interest to just straight up lynch you right away. Simply put, unless your cases actually provide substance then I think you will just be a late game liability for town, mostly giving everyone a null read and potentially forcing people to make a town or scum read on you without having much of an idea what you are. So to sum up, kush, I can definitely forgive you for your "style" of posting but I will not under any circumstance forgive you for posting shitty content, just like I will not forgive anyone else for doing so either. Understand that I'm not singling you out as a target, I'm using your history as an example for what I consider scummy play. Now, on to actually read the thread and see if I can respond to something. On September 28 2012 17:56 Alsn wrote:Wow, upon reading the thread I realise that kush has been following the exact pattern I just now specified to be the way not to play if he wanted to absolve himself in my eyes. In fact, I could go back to my initial posts to him in NMMXXV saying almost the exact same thing. As such, I think I have no choice but to cast a: FoS kushm4stakush, in order for me to let up, I want you to stop it with your ridiculous knee-jerk play and actually point out why you think other people are scummy as opposed to why you yourself is so obviously town. While the following idiom is quite ironic in a forum game, actions speak louder than words and you defending yourself is just that, meaningless words. Start proving to everyone that you are concerned with finding scum instead of worrying about your silly streak. That being said, I think everyone else is jumping the gun here, kush is an extremely easy target to pick on, especially since he almost never seems to think before he posts. The scumslip that Darth and others pointed out can definitely be seen as damning. However, I am not inclined to agree with the following post from Darth: Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 13:46 DarthPunk wrote:I am not flaming Kush. I am legitimately scum hunting. The contrast in this situation, to the one with shiao, are so stark that there is no point even bringing it up. You will know when I am flaming when you see it, and even then it is not really that big a scum tell. I can tell the difference between Scummy town and actual scum, and it is not 'illogical' to be able to do this. Kush right now is not scummy town. He has slipped HUGELY. He is conforming to his previous scum meta. Seriously...
There is no explanation for his town read on me. The only reason he would say that is if he was scum. This last part seems to overly simplify the matter to me. The only reason? I myself can see a few reasons, but I would like kush to reply himself before I comment further as I don't want to give him an easy out. I can state for the record that unless kush shapes up considerably, I'm all in favour of lynching him. Simply because him playing like his normal self would be a liability for town later on due to his inclination to just defend himself over hunting scum. However, I definitely want to give him the benefit of the doubt and allow him to actually try and show that he has town's best interest in mind. So until then, while I definitely would like everyone to share their reads on kush so far, that is not enough for D1. We need to start exploring different possibilities because if we decide to lynch kush and he flips green, spending all of D1 talking about him will put us back at square one minus two townies. I'll make another post within an hour or two on another topic as I think I've made myself perfectly clear on where I stand on kush, but right now I need breakfast. On September 28 2012 22:03 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 21:38 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 21:31 Alsn wrote:
he has pointed out that he doesn't agree with your tunneling of kush. I find it astonishing that you 'interpret' debears' post that way in context of your view of Z-Boson. The way in which you paraphrase things whilst obscuring the truth/ put your own angle on things has me very concerned. Astonishing how? I would like you to explain what's so amazingly pro-town about tunneling kush from the very beginning. I find the risks of that approach to be very high from a town perspective. There are two scenarios: A) He flips green, and unless he during the day completely changed his character we will have almost no way of distinguishing who among the people who pushed for his lynch were scum and who were town. B) He flips scum, at this point I just don't find that likely enough to risk A) happening. That fact alone is enough for me to see that post of debears as entirely reasonable, since both of you at the time were basically calling out kush for every single post he was making(for good reason, but not if that's the only thing you are doing). On September 29 2012 00:24 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 22:39 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 22:03 Alsn wrote:On September 28 2012 21:38 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 21:31 Alsn wrote:
he has pointed out that he doesn't agree with your tunneling of kush. I find it astonishing that you 'interpret' debears' post that way in context of your view of Z-Boson. The way in which you paraphrase things whilst obscuring the truth/ put your own angle on things has me very concerned. Astonishing how? I would like you to explain what's so amazingly pro-town about tunneling kush from the very beginning. I find the risks of that approach to be very high from a town perspective. There are two scenarios: A) He flips green, and unless he during the day completely changed his character we will have almost no way of distinguishing who among the people who pushed for his lynch were scum and who were town. B) He flips scum, at this point I just don't find that likely enough to risk A) happening. That fact alone is enough for me to see that post of debears as entirely reasonable, since both of you at the time were basically calling out kush for every single post he was making(for good reason, but not if that's the only thing you are doing). I was not just looking at Kush. I was looking at the reactions to my case on kush also, Namely debears. As far as I am concerned Kush is scum and therefore it is best for town to lynch him. I like to focus on one thing at a time. Especially when he is incredibly scummy and has SCUM SLIPPED It is a common scum hunting technique and has been recommended in Several postgames. Obviously It was not to the exclusion of all others because I am now looking at you and debears. If there was nothing to go on I would have changed tac. Turns out he is scum. So I try and get him lynched. Savvy? On September 28 2012 22:03 Alsn wrote:
That fact alone is enough for me to see that post of debears as entirely reasonable, since both of you at the time were basically calling out kush for every single post he was making(for good reason, but not if that's the only thing you are doing). So you don't find Kush likely to flip scum? good to know. Z -Boson hardly called out kush. I made a case. I was not tunnelling. (but I see that is the misconception you are trying to present) If by some miracle he flips green there is still a lot of info to go off. Your premise iswrong and thus your conclusions are wrong. I was calling out Kush for good reason? and at the same time Debears was entirely reasonable in shutting that down? ##FoS ALSN Given the evidence so far no, I don't, and frankly I don't see why that's so hard to believe. Given his history, it should be easy to see for anyone that while he has different town and scum metas(as pointed out by Hapahauli in the obs QT of NMMXVII), his comments so far this game is entirely in line with the way he usually posts during D1. Basically just writing up whatever is on his mind. That to me doesn't really increase or decrease the chances of him flipping either way(but the setup of the game says all else being equal, 75% of the players are green, 25% are scum) Yes, you called him out for good reason because his arguments(like so many times before this game) make little to no sense. But right now the only thing I really agree actually points to him being scum is what you call his scum slip. I just do not agree with you of just how damning that statement is. The first thing that sprang to mind when I saw you quoting that was simply that townie was an odd word to use, why not use player? But a confirmed scum slip? Come on, it's not like he said something that is entirely outside the realm of possibility for a town player to say. "Townie" wouldn't be the word I'd use, but I just can't see it as that obvious a scum slip. I'll accept that you are not necessarily wrong for thinking so however. Given that there are no other developments then sure, I'll admit that there's at least a higher chance of kush being scum than a random lurker being scum. But I would really like it if we could at least try to get better odds than that. Best case scenario for me would be actually having everyone talk, present cases and opinions and if no one else presents themselves as scummy, then and only then will I roll the dice on kush. Remember, there are 3 scum, not only one. Who knows, if he's scum as you say, he might look even scummier by lynch time. The case being what it is with kush, I can see now that what you were doing wasn't tunneling per se. However, I think you are doing the very thing you are accusing me of doing where you say debears was trying to "shut down" the case against kush. Like I've said several times now, that's not at all how I interpreted it, only that we shouldn't limit ourselves to a single discussion topic which at the time I felt debears was trying to suggest. Something that I happen to agree with. Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 22:39 DarthPunk wrote:I made a case. I was not tunnelling. (but I see that is the misconception you are trying to present) If by some miracle he flips green there is still a lot of info to go off. Your premise iswrong and thus your conclusions are wrong. This statement makes little sense to me. You say you were not tunneling, which I can now appreciate as probably true, but up until recently was not clear at all to me(and probably not to anyone else either). You had made quite a lot of posts in a row with kush as the only topic, as well as trying to convince others in the thread that he absolutely, 100%, no doubt whatsoever must be scum. I didn't find it unreasonable that someone would point that fact out to you. My "premise" was simply that if I find an argument reasonable, someone else trying to poke holes in that argument might not have the same motivations as myself, thus they are suspicious. The bolded line is ridiculous however, especially in context with the sentence before it. What makes you so sure that we would have "a lot of info to go off" in the case of everyone tunneling kush and us lynching him? My A) vs. B) scenario that you are referring to was dependent on the hypothetical scenario of everyone tunneling kush(which I already explained seemed to be where things were going at the time). I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you misunderstood what I was trying to say instead of deliberately using a red herring to try and discredit me. With that in mind, based on your willingness to put yourself out there, I have a slight town read on you. On September 29 2012 18:17 Alsn wrote:
First, I'd like to start things with stating so far D1 has pretty much lived up to my exact nightmare scenario that I speculated about when arguing with DP yesterday. Everyone is voting kush with only very little discussion about any other topic(mainly, the debears-boson exchange).
Looking at the vote count, the last official count says 7, and now corrosion added his vote for a total of 8. With myself that would be 9, the exact number of town in this game. From my point of view, unless kushm4sta, Djodref and Lesrah are the 3 scum, there are scum pushing this lynch.
Given that, I'm really starting to dislike this lynch. I agree however that kush has been mostly concerned with defending himself against perceived injustice rather than actually trying to hunt scum, this still does not convince me that he is scum. Lynching scum with an overwhelming majority D1 just seems like way too improbably. Sure, if we had to fight tooth and nail to get 7 votes, I might buy it, but that's not the case. It seems to me there must be scum sheeping onto this lynch.
Like I've stated before I can go along with the kush lynch, but I'd rather try and lynch my top scum read at this point and with the current developments, I see a kush lynch more as a last resort than my main scum read. Unfortunately, this argument is only available to people who have yet to vote and are town, as well as to scum since other than myself only scum are aware of my alignment. For everyone else, the "unless a, b and c are scum" argument will include me.
My argument is at least enough to convince myself, so I'll be scouring the thread for the next couple of hours to see if my "gut scum reads" so far have any merit and if so push that/those case(s) instead. If it turns out that they are going nowhere, I will vote kush. But I still feel we have enough time to at least have a discussion on the topic of "just wtf is going on here?!". On September 29 2012 18:28 Alsn wrote:
A quick addendum, I'm aware that scum pushing the lynch does not exonerate kush since they could be bussing him. However, given the assumption that kush is scum and there are active scum among the voters, I just find it more likely that they would try and find another solution than bussing, especially since it's D1. That's my main reason for not being convinced that kush is scum. On September 29 2012 21:15 Alsn wrote:
I've been doing some soul searching and I'm starting to agree that it's not worth it to try and push any other cases right now.
Mostly because my entire premise was that I was thinking it to be unlikely for kush to be scum. I realise that after trying to put into words why I think that is so, I have nothing other than the fact that I "feel" him to be town, which is a really stupid reason for absolving him. I thought I could back it up by saying he's been pressured to hard, there's no way he's responsible for not scum hunting. But in the end, I can't find a logical reason to forgive him if I exclude my own gut feeling from the equation.
I think now that my best option is to hold on to whatever small reads I have(because while I have some suspicions, I don't think they are rock solid) until after the lynch is over. Because at least then, we will have more information.
So for now, although my gut is screaming at me, I'll commit to voting for kush, mostly because most of what I said about BosoN has returned somewhat satisfactory answers, I really don't like the way a lot of people got away with not basically posting anything at all(I'm looking at you, Djodref, corrosion, Omniscient, RemedySC). I think that's probably what irks me the most, the thing I was most hoping would not happen, did happen.
##Vote: kushm4sta sup scum? anyone? I got a lot of thoughts on this case, but as I'm typing them out I realize I'd rather have Alsn respond in detail first. I'll just say I'm not convinced atm.
Not convinced about what?
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And to clarify a couple of things about my case on Djo now that I'm up to date on the thread:
1. Latching on to others reads: As newbie scum it's really hard to make original cases. I had first hand experience Cubu and Imcasey in XXVI. The only case Imcasey could make was against our scum buddy Xatalos (that's quite easy because he knew he was scum). We had a similar situation with Debears in XXVII, at least in the beginning where the only case he could make was a defense of Thrawn, which is easy to do because he knew knew he was town (well, he flipped SK, but Debears couldn't know).
2. How can anyone buy into Kush's defense that easily? A newbie town is usually very suspcicious and it was a really silly defense, at the very best null. Using "player" and "people" sounds awkward? How isn't that an obvious lie?
+ Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 20:12 kushm4sta wrote:
2. My supposed scumslip: huh? What else should I have called you? Player? Person? Maybe but to me those things sound awkward. Townie just seemed like the most non awkward word to use.
Innocent until proven guilty. That's how we do it in America bro.
As for the other lurkers, I don't find Remedy suspicious, rather the opposite although his post count is still low. Nothing really stuck out to me the same way Djo did when reading Omn's and Corrosion's filter.
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On September 30 2012 21:45 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 21:41 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:On September 30 2012 17:13 Z-BosoN wrote:So I woke up a couple of hours earlier than I should have. Instead of going back to sleep, I decide to go read some filters. Sometimes I hate this game rofl. Anyways, I will agree with one thing DP said, alsn is scummy as shit. Look at his stance on kush throughout the thread. Brief timeline here: ACT I - Kush. If you are scummy like last game, I will lynch you no matter what.+ Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 16:54 Alsn wrote:Hey everyone, just woke up and was about to check when the game was supposed to start. Imagine my surprise when it's already started! Although looking closely the game started as I went to sleep, so I wouldn't have been able to participate until now either way. So in any case, I'm Alsn, I like logic. My previous mafia games so far amount to a single one, a game where I was NKd N1 as Vanilla Townie. My filter for that game can be found here. Other than that I have only ever played SC2 Mafia in any significant amounts(a game while using the same core rules, plays extremely different due to the time constraints and limits on discussion). If you are interested, I was also active in the /obs QT discussion of NMMXXVII which can be found here. So, with that out of the way, I read the first few posts and saw that this game continues the trend of lurker policy lynching. I agree that there needs to be pressure on scum to actually post, since without scum posts to analyse all the scumhunting in the world will almost certainly only turn up townies(due to lurkers generally being null reads). That said, I followed Tl Mafia LVII wherein there was a lot of discussion about lynching "trolly meta" players and I would like to take that one step further. Kush, while I realize that you have a posting style which by its nature is very confrontational and inflammatory, I feel that unless you actually provide some concrete analysis without using almost purely OMGUS argumentation that it is in town's best interest to just straight up lynch you right away. Simply put, unless your cases actually provide substance then I think you will just be a late game liability for town, mostly giving everyone a null read and potentially forcing people to make a town or scum read on you without having much of an idea what you are. So to sum up, kush, I can definitely forgive you for your "style" of posting but I will not under any circumstance forgive you for posting shitty content, just like I will not forgive anyone else for doing so either. Understand that I'm not singling you out as a target, I'm using your history as an example for what I consider scummy play. Now, on to actually read the thread and see if I can respond to something. On September 28 2012 17:56 Alsn wrote:Wow, upon reading the thread I realise that kush has been following the exact pattern I just now specified to be the way not to play if he wanted to absolve himself in my eyes. In fact, I could go back to my initial posts to him in NMMXXV saying almost the exact same thing. As such, I think I have no choice but to cast a: FoS kushm4stakush, in order for me to let up, I want you to stop it with your ridiculous knee-jerk play and actually point out why you think other people are scummy as opposed to why you yourself is so obviously town. While the following idiom is quite ironic in a forum game, actions speak louder than words and you defending yourself is just that, meaningless words. Start proving to everyone that you are concerned with finding scum instead of worrying about your silly streak. That being said, I think everyone else is jumping the gun here, kush is an extremely easy target to pick on, especially since he almost never seems to think before he posts. The scumslip that Darth and others pointed out can definitely be seen as damning. However, I am not inclined to agree with the following post from Darth: Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 13:46 DarthPunk wrote:I am not flaming Kush. I am legitimately scum hunting. The contrast in this situation, to the one with shiao, are so stark that there is no point even bringing it up. You will know when I am flaming when you see it, and even then it is not really that big a scum tell. I can tell the difference between Scummy town and actual scum, and it is not 'illogical' to be able to do this. Kush right now is not scummy town. He has slipped HUGELY. He is conforming to his previous scum meta. Seriously...
There is no explanation for his town read on me. The only reason he would say that is if he was scum. This last part seems to overly simplify the matter to me. The only reason? I myself can see a few reasons, but I would like kush to reply himself before I comment further as I don't want to give him an easy out. I can state for the record that unless kush shapes up considerably, I'm all in favour of lynching him. Simply because him playing like his normal self would be a liability for town later on due to his inclination to just defend himself over hunting scum. However, I definitely want to give him the benefit of the doubt and allow him to actually try and show that he has town's best interest in mind. So until then, while I definitely would like everyone to share their reads on kush so far, that is not enough for D1. We need to start exploring different possibilities because if we decide to lynch kush and he flips green, spending all of D1 talking about him will put us back at square one minus two townies. I'll make another post within an hour or two on another topic as I think I've made myself perfectly clear on where I stand on kush, but right now I need breakfast. On September 28 2012 22:03 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 21:38 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 21:31 Alsn wrote:
he has pointed out that he doesn't agree with your tunneling of kush. I find it astonishing that you 'interpret' debears' post that way in context of your view of Z-Boson. The way in which you paraphrase things whilst obscuring the truth/ put your own angle on things has me very concerned. Astonishing how? I would like you to explain what's so amazingly pro-town about tunneling kush from the very beginning. I find the risks of that approach to be very high from a town perspective. There are two scenarios: A) He flips green, and unless he during the day completely changed his character we will have almost no way of distinguishing who among the people who pushed for his lynch were scum and who were town. B) He flips scum, at this point I just don't find that likely enough to risk A) happening. That fact alone is enough for me to see that post of debears as entirely reasonable, since both of you at the time were basically calling out kush for every single post he was making(for good reason, but not if that's the only thing you are doing). On September 29 2012 00:24 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 22:39 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 22:03 Alsn wrote:On September 28 2012 21:38 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 21:31 Alsn wrote:
he has pointed out that he doesn't agree with your tunneling of kush. I find it astonishing that you 'interpret' debears' post that way in context of your view of Z-Boson. The way in which you paraphrase things whilst obscuring the truth/ put your own angle on things has me very concerned. Astonishing how? I would like you to explain what's so amazingly pro-town about tunneling kush from the very beginning. I find the risks of that approach to be very high from a town perspective. There are two scenarios: A) He flips green, and unless he during the day completely changed his character we will have almost no way of distinguishing who among the people who pushed for his lynch were scum and who were town. B) He flips scum, at this point I just don't find that likely enough to risk A) happening. That fact alone is enough for me to see that post of debears as entirely reasonable, since both of you at the time were basically calling out kush for every single post he was making(for good reason, but not if that's the only thing you are doing). I was not just looking at Kush. I was looking at the reactions to my case on kush also, Namely debears. As far as I am concerned Kush is scum and therefore it is best for town to lynch him. I like to focus on one thing at a time. Especially when he is incredibly scummy and has SCUM SLIPPED It is a common scum hunting technique and has been recommended in Several postgames. Obviously It was not to the exclusion of all others because I am now looking at you and debears. If there was nothing to go on I would have changed tac. Turns out he is scum. So I try and get him lynched. Savvy? On September 28 2012 22:03 Alsn wrote:
That fact alone is enough for me to see that post of debears as entirely reasonable, since both of you at the time were basically calling out kush for every single post he was making(for good reason, but not if that's the only thing you are doing). So you don't find Kush likely to flip scum? good to know. Z -Boson hardly called out kush. I made a case. I was not tunnelling. (but I see that is the misconception you are trying to present) If by some miracle he flips green there is still a lot of info to go off. Your premise iswrong and thus your conclusions are wrong. I was calling out Kush for good reason? and at the same time Debears was entirely reasonable in shutting that down? ##FoS ALSN Given the evidence so far no, I don't, and frankly I don't see why that's so hard to believe. Given his history, it should be easy to see for anyone that while he has different town and scum metas(as pointed out by Hapahauli in the obs QT of NMMXVII), his comments so far this game is entirely in line with the way he usually posts during D1. Basically just writing up whatever is on his mind. That to me doesn't really increase or decrease the chances of him flipping either way(but the setup of the game says all else being equal, 75% of the players are green, 25% are scum) Yes, you called him out for good reason because his arguments(like so many times before this game) make little to no sense. But right now the only thing I really agree actually points to him being scum is what you call his scum slip. I just do not agree with you of just how damning that statement is. The first thing that sprang to mind when I saw you quoting that was simply that townie was an odd word to use, why not use player? But a confirmed scum slip? Come on, it's not like he said something that is entirely outside the realm of possibility for a town player to say. "Townie" wouldn't be the word I'd use, but I just can't see it as that obvious a scum slip. I'll accept that you are not necessarily wrong for thinking so however. Given that there are no other developments then sure, I'll admit that there's at least a higher chance of kush being scum than a random lurker being scum. But I would really like it if we could at least try to get better odds than that. Best case scenario for me would be actually having everyone talk, present cases and opinions and if no one else presents themselves as scummy, then and only then will I roll the dice on kush. Remember, there are 3 scum, not only one. Who knows, if he's scum as you say, he might look even scummier by lynch time. The case being what it is with kush, I can see now that what you were doing wasn't tunneling per se. However, I think you are doing the very thing you are accusing me of doing where you say debears was trying to "shut down" the case against kush. Like I've said several times now, that's not at all how I interpreted it, only that we shouldn't limit ourselves to a single discussion topic which at the time I felt debears was trying to suggest. Something that I happen to agree with. Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 22:39 DarthPunk wrote:I made a case. I was not tunnelling. (but I see that is the misconception you are trying to present) If by some miracle he flips green there is still a lot of info to go off. Your premise iswrong and thus your conclusions are wrong. This statement makes little sense to me. You say you were not tunneling, which I can now appreciate as probably true, but up until recently was not clear at all to me(and probably not to anyone else either). You had made quite a lot of posts in a row with kush as the only topic, as well as trying to convince others in the thread that he absolutely, 100%, no doubt whatsoever must be scum. I didn't find it unreasonable that someone would point that fact out to you. My "premise" was simply that if I find an argument reasonable, someone else trying to poke holes in that argument might not have the same motivations as myself, thus they are suspicious. The bolded line is ridiculous however, especially in context with the sentence before it. What makes you so sure that we would have "a lot of info to go off" in the case of everyone tunneling kush and us lynching him? My A) vs. B) scenario that you are referring to was dependent on the hypothetical scenario of everyone tunneling kush(which I already explained seemed to be where things were going at the time). I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you misunderstood what I was trying to say instead of deliberately using a red herring to try and discredit me. With that in mind, based on your willingness to put yourself out there, I have a slight town read on you. On September 29 2012 18:17 Alsn wrote:
First, I'd like to start things with stating so far D1 has pretty much lived up to my exact nightmare scenario that I speculated about when arguing with DP yesterday. Everyone is voting kush with only very little discussion about any other topic(mainly, the debears-boson exchange).
Looking at the vote count, the last official count says 7, and now corrosion added his vote for a total of 8. With myself that would be 9, the exact number of town in this game. From my point of view, unless kushm4sta, Djodref and Lesrah are the 3 scum, there are scum pushing this lynch.
Given that, I'm really starting to dislike this lynch. I agree however that kush has been mostly concerned with defending himself against perceived injustice rather than actually trying to hunt scum, this still does not convince me that he is scum. Lynching scum with an overwhelming majority D1 just seems like way too improbably. Sure, if we had to fight tooth and nail to get 7 votes, I might buy it, but that's not the case. It seems to me there must be scum sheeping onto this lynch.
Like I've stated before I can go along with the kush lynch, but I'd rather try and lynch my top scum read at this point and with the current developments, I see a kush lynch more as a last resort than my main scum read. Unfortunately, this argument is only available to people who have yet to vote and are town, as well as to scum since other than myself only scum are aware of my alignment. For everyone else, the "unless a, b and c are scum" argument will include me.
My argument is at least enough to convince myself, so I'll be scouring the thread for the next couple of hours to see if my "gut scum reads" so far have any merit and if so push that/those case(s) instead. If it turns out that they are going nowhere, I will vote kush. But I still feel we have enough time to at least have a discussion on the topic of "just wtf is going on here?!". On September 29 2012 18:28 Alsn wrote:
A quick addendum, I'm aware that scum pushing the lynch does not exonerate kush since they could be bussing him. However, given the assumption that kush is scum and there are active scum among the voters, I just find it more likely that they would try and find another solution than bussing, especially since it's D1. That's my main reason for not being convinced that kush is scum. On September 29 2012 21:15 Alsn wrote:
I've been doing some soul searching and I'm starting to agree that it's not worth it to try and push any other cases right now.
Mostly because my entire premise was that I was thinking it to be unlikely for kush to be scum. I realise that after trying to put into words why I think that is so, I have nothing other than the fact that I "feel" him to be town, which is a really stupid reason for absolving him. I thought I could back it up by saying he's been pressured to hard, there's no way he's responsible for not scum hunting. But in the end, I can't find a logical reason to forgive him if I exclude my own gut feeling from the equation.
I think now that my best option is to hold on to whatever small reads I have(because while I have some suspicions, I don't think they are rock solid) until after the lynch is over. Because at least then, we will have more information.
So for now, although my gut is screaming at me, I'll commit to voting for kush, mostly because most of what I said about BosoN has returned somewhat satisfactory answers, I really don't like the way a lot of people got away with not basically posting anything at all(I'm looking at you, Djodref, corrosion, Omniscient, RemedySC). I think that's probably what irks me the most, the thing I was most hoping would not happen, did happen.
##Vote: kushm4sta sup scum? anyone? I got a lot of thoughts on this case, but as I'm typing them out I realize I'd rather have Alsn respond in detail first. I'll just say I'm not convinced atm. Not convinced about what?
About the case. Like I said, I'd rather have Alsn respond first.
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OK. So here are my top scum reads in order.
Debears.
His flip-flopping around the kush lynch FoS'ing kush then soft defending him and trying to downplay the lynch after that are cause for concern. I am almost sure that he is scum. And he should be the next lynch candidate. Please reference the excellent case on him made by Z - Boson.
Djodref.
More flip flopping around the kush lynch. He was far far FAR to ready to believe kushes weak as anythign explanation for his slip. Something which all the candidates on my list have in common. The thing that really gets me though are the following.
Twice asking for a read on himself. This is something that I have the impulse to do as scum. (i don;t do it, but I would love to) If you are not being talked about you have no idea if what you are doing is working well. I.E. If you are behaving scummy or not. Probably not anything. But something that struck me as odd.
Trying to take credit twice from the kush lynch. Despite being wishy-washy at best and soft defending him at worst. As I have said earlier. Town cred is exactly what you want from a bus. And here is an already scummy player, who has not really scum hunted been incredibly wishy-washy etc. wanting town cred from a lynch he not only did not push but opposed and soft defended.
And his vote post was a 180 degree backflip if I have ever seen one.
On September 29 2012 12:53 Djodref wrote:Here is my last statement about Kush... Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 21:18 Djodref wrote:@corrosionI'm actually working in Korea so I don't enjoy so much free time  . But a big national holiday is coming this week end so I should be able to participate to the thread and finish to read all the guides. @everyone This also means party time ! I'm currently headed to get drunk all night so you shouldn't be hearing from me until tomorrow 12.00 pm KST. Also I'm accepting Kush explanation for calling Darth a townie but it would be better for him to refrain calling someone a townie or a scum without explanations later on... I did accept his explanation at the time but I cannot let him off the hook for the posts where he said he didn't care about this game anymore. Also I really don't like the posts where he implies that debears is his scum partner. I don't see any pro-town motivation for such posts. That's why he's getting my vote now. ##Vote: kushm4staAlso a side note for the guys having trouble with my pseudo, you can call me Djo if you want
Also there is a progression in his posting from kush may be town. To kush may be red to kush IS red. With no addition to the case or explanation.
On September 29 2012 20:11 Djodref wrote:
Hey guys !
I'm going out tonight again so I'll see you all after kush flips red ^^
I might check the thread drunken and all when I come back but it should be after the deadline so don't expect me to change my vote anymore.
See ya !
He knows kush is going to flip red. Before the flip. And his previous posts were not even close to this sure. In fact. He was inclined to believe kush's weak excuses. He said maybe and might.
Also read SDM's case on him.
Third is Alsn.
Soft defending Debears. Desperately trying to stop the kush lynch as hard as he could. Employer of WIFOM. Honestly Just look at Z- Boson's case against him.
Town reads
I have a probable town read on Z-Boson, and SDM. In no particular order.
Z - Boson is playing to his town meta from everything I have seen so far. And SDM has been very helpful and has contributed a lot.
It is only day one so take this with several grains of salt. But I thought I would put it out there in case I die.
Anyway. Feel free to ask me questions etc. I have stopped grinding solo q for the day. So now I am much more motivated for mafia lol.
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On September 30 2012 22:05 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 21:45 DarthPunk wrote:On September 30 2012 21:41 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:On September 30 2012 17:13 Z-BosoN wrote:So I woke up a couple of hours earlier than I should have. Instead of going back to sleep, I decide to go read some filters. Sometimes I hate this game rofl. Anyways, I will agree with one thing DP said, alsn is scummy as shit. Look at his stance on kush throughout the thread. Brief timeline here: ACT I - Kush. If you are scummy like last game, I will lynch you no matter what.+ Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 16:54 Alsn wrote:Hey everyone, just woke up and was about to check when the game was supposed to start. Imagine my surprise when it's already started! Although looking closely the game started as I went to sleep, so I wouldn't have been able to participate until now either way. So in any case, I'm Alsn, I like logic. My previous mafia games so far amount to a single one, a game where I was NKd N1 as Vanilla Townie. My filter for that game can be found here. Other than that I have only ever played SC2 Mafia in any significant amounts(a game while using the same core rules, plays extremely different due to the time constraints and limits on discussion). If you are interested, I was also active in the /obs QT discussion of NMMXXVII which can be found here. So, with that out of the way, I read the first few posts and saw that this game continues the trend of lurker policy lynching. I agree that there needs to be pressure on scum to actually post, since without scum posts to analyse all the scumhunting in the world will almost certainly only turn up townies(due to lurkers generally being null reads). That said, I followed Tl Mafia LVII wherein there was a lot of discussion about lynching "trolly meta" players and I would like to take that one step further. Kush, while I realize that you have a posting style which by its nature is very confrontational and inflammatory, I feel that unless you actually provide some concrete analysis without using almost purely OMGUS argumentation that it is in town's best interest to just straight up lynch you right away. Simply put, unless your cases actually provide substance then I think you will just be a late game liability for town, mostly giving everyone a null read and potentially forcing people to make a town or scum read on you without having much of an idea what you are. So to sum up, kush, I can definitely forgive you for your "style" of posting but I will not under any circumstance forgive you for posting shitty content, just like I will not forgive anyone else for doing so either. Understand that I'm not singling you out as a target, I'm using your history as an example for what I consider scummy play. Now, on to actually read the thread and see if I can respond to something. On September 28 2012 17:56 Alsn wrote:Wow, upon reading the thread I realise that kush has been following the exact pattern I just now specified to be the way not to play if he wanted to absolve himself in my eyes. In fact, I could go back to my initial posts to him in NMMXXV saying almost the exact same thing. As such, I think I have no choice but to cast a: FoS kushm4stakush, in order for me to let up, I want you to stop it with your ridiculous knee-jerk play and actually point out why you think other people are scummy as opposed to why you yourself is so obviously town. While the following idiom is quite ironic in a forum game, actions speak louder than words and you defending yourself is just that, meaningless words. Start proving to everyone that you are concerned with finding scum instead of worrying about your silly streak. That being said, I think everyone else is jumping the gun here, kush is an extremely easy target to pick on, especially since he almost never seems to think before he posts. The scumslip that Darth and others pointed out can definitely be seen as damning. However, I am not inclined to agree with the following post from Darth: Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 13:46 DarthPunk wrote:I am not flaming Kush. I am legitimately scum hunting. The contrast in this situation, to the one with shiao, are so stark that there is no point even bringing it up. You will know when I am flaming when you see it, and even then it is not really that big a scum tell. I can tell the difference between Scummy town and actual scum, and it is not 'illogical' to be able to do this. Kush right now is not scummy town. He has slipped HUGELY. He is conforming to his previous scum meta. Seriously...
There is no explanation for his town read on me. The only reason he would say that is if he was scum. This last part seems to overly simplify the matter to me. The only reason? I myself can see a few reasons, but I would like kush to reply himself before I comment further as I don't want to give him an easy out. I can state for the record that unless kush shapes up considerably, I'm all in favour of lynching him. Simply because him playing like his normal self would be a liability for town later on due to his inclination to just defend himself over hunting scum. However, I definitely want to give him the benefit of the doubt and allow him to actually try and show that he has town's best interest in mind. So until then, while I definitely would like everyone to share their reads on kush so far, that is not enough for D1. We need to start exploring different possibilities because if we decide to lynch kush and he flips green, spending all of D1 talking about him will put us back at square one minus two townies. I'll make another post within an hour or two on another topic as I think I've made myself perfectly clear on where I stand on kush, but right now I need breakfast. On September 28 2012 22:03 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 21:38 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 21:31 Alsn wrote:
he has pointed out that he doesn't agree with your tunneling of kush. I find it astonishing that you 'interpret' debears' post that way in context of your view of Z-Boson. The way in which you paraphrase things whilst obscuring the truth/ put your own angle on things has me very concerned. Astonishing how? I would like you to explain what's so amazingly pro-town about tunneling kush from the very beginning. I find the risks of that approach to be very high from a town perspective. There are two scenarios: A) He flips green, and unless he during the day completely changed his character we will have almost no way of distinguishing who among the people who pushed for his lynch were scum and who were town. B) He flips scum, at this point I just don't find that likely enough to risk A) happening. That fact alone is enough for me to see that post of debears as entirely reasonable, since both of you at the time were basically calling out kush for every single post he was making(for good reason, but not if that's the only thing you are doing). On September 29 2012 00:24 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 22:39 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 22:03 Alsn wrote:On September 28 2012 21:38 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 21:31 Alsn wrote:
he has pointed out that he doesn't agree with your tunneling of kush. I find it astonishing that you 'interpret' debears' post that way in context of your view of Z-Boson. The way in which you paraphrase things whilst obscuring the truth/ put your own angle on things has me very concerned. Astonishing how? I would like you to explain what's so amazingly pro-town about tunneling kush from the very beginning. I find the risks of that approach to be very high from a town perspective. There are two scenarios: A) He flips green, and unless he during the day completely changed his character we will have almost no way of distinguishing who among the people who pushed for his lynch were scum and who were town. B) He flips scum, at this point I just don't find that likely enough to risk A) happening. That fact alone is enough for me to see that post of debears as entirely reasonable, since both of you at the time were basically calling out kush for every single post he was making(for good reason, but not if that's the only thing you are doing). I was not just looking at Kush. I was looking at the reactions to my case on kush also, Namely debears. As far as I am concerned Kush is scum and therefore it is best for town to lynch him. I like to focus on one thing at a time. Especially when he is incredibly scummy and has SCUM SLIPPED It is a common scum hunting technique and has been recommended in Several postgames. Obviously It was not to the exclusion of all others because I am now looking at you and debears. If there was nothing to go on I would have changed tac. Turns out he is scum. So I try and get him lynched. Savvy? On September 28 2012 22:03 Alsn wrote:
That fact alone is enough for me to see that post of debears as entirely reasonable, since both of you at the time were basically calling out kush for every single post he was making(for good reason, but not if that's the only thing you are doing). So you don't find Kush likely to flip scum? good to know. Z -Boson hardly called out kush. I made a case. I was not tunnelling. (but I see that is the misconception you are trying to present) If by some miracle he flips green there is still a lot of info to go off. Your premise iswrong and thus your conclusions are wrong. I was calling out Kush for good reason? and at the same time Debears was entirely reasonable in shutting that down? ##FoS ALSN Given the evidence so far no, I don't, and frankly I don't see why that's so hard to believe. Given his history, it should be easy to see for anyone that while he has different town and scum metas(as pointed out by Hapahauli in the obs QT of NMMXVII), his comments so far this game is entirely in line with the way he usually posts during D1. Basically just writing up whatever is on his mind. That to me doesn't really increase or decrease the chances of him flipping either way(but the setup of the game says all else being equal, 75% of the players are green, 25% are scum) Yes, you called him out for good reason because his arguments(like so many times before this game) make little to no sense. But right now the only thing I really agree actually points to him being scum is what you call his scum slip. I just do not agree with you of just how damning that statement is. The first thing that sprang to mind when I saw you quoting that was simply that townie was an odd word to use, why not use player? But a confirmed scum slip? Come on, it's not like he said something that is entirely outside the realm of possibility for a town player to say. "Townie" wouldn't be the word I'd use, but I just can't see it as that obvious a scum slip. I'll accept that you are not necessarily wrong for thinking so however. Given that there are no other developments then sure, I'll admit that there's at least a higher chance of kush being scum than a random lurker being scum. But I would really like it if we could at least try to get better odds than that. Best case scenario for me would be actually having everyone talk, present cases and opinions and if no one else presents themselves as scummy, then and only then will I roll the dice on kush. Remember, there are 3 scum, not only one. Who knows, if he's scum as you say, he might look even scummier by lynch time. The case being what it is with kush, I can see now that what you were doing wasn't tunneling per se. However, I think you are doing the very thing you are accusing me of doing where you say debears was trying to "shut down" the case against kush. Like I've said several times now, that's not at all how I interpreted it, only that we shouldn't limit ourselves to a single discussion topic which at the time I felt debears was trying to suggest. Something that I happen to agree with. Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 22:39 DarthPunk wrote:I made a case. I was not tunnelling. (but I see that is the misconception you are trying to present) If by some miracle he flips green there is still a lot of info to go off. Your premise iswrong and thus your conclusions are wrong. This statement makes little sense to me. You say you were not tunneling, which I can now appreciate as probably true, but up until recently was not clear at all to me(and probably not to anyone else either). You had made quite a lot of posts in a row with kush as the only topic, as well as trying to convince others in the thread that he absolutely, 100%, no doubt whatsoever must be scum. I didn't find it unreasonable that someone would point that fact out to you. My "premise" was simply that if I find an argument reasonable, someone else trying to poke holes in that argument might not have the same motivations as myself, thus they are suspicious. The bolded line is ridiculous however, especially in context with the sentence before it. What makes you so sure that we would have "a lot of info to go off" in the case of everyone tunneling kush and us lynching him? My A) vs. B) scenario that you are referring to was dependent on the hypothetical scenario of everyone tunneling kush(which I already explained seemed to be where things were going at the time). I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you misunderstood what I was trying to say instead of deliberately using a red herring to try and discredit me. With that in mind, based on your willingness to put yourself out there, I have a slight town read on you. On September 29 2012 18:17 Alsn wrote:
First, I'd like to start things with stating so far D1 has pretty much lived up to my exact nightmare scenario that I speculated about when arguing with DP yesterday. Everyone is voting kush with only very little discussion about any other topic(mainly, the debears-boson exchange).
Looking at the vote count, the last official count says 7, and now corrosion added his vote for a total of 8. With myself that would be 9, the exact number of town in this game. From my point of view, unless kushm4sta, Djodref and Lesrah are the 3 scum, there are scum pushing this lynch.
Given that, I'm really starting to dislike this lynch. I agree however that kush has been mostly concerned with defending himself against perceived injustice rather than actually trying to hunt scum, this still does not convince me that he is scum. Lynching scum with an overwhelming majority D1 just seems like way too improbably. Sure, if we had to fight tooth and nail to get 7 votes, I might buy it, but that's not the case. It seems to me there must be scum sheeping onto this lynch.
Like I've stated before I can go along with the kush lynch, but I'd rather try and lynch my top scum read at this point and with the current developments, I see a kush lynch more as a last resort than my main scum read. Unfortunately, this argument is only available to people who have yet to vote and are town, as well as to scum since other than myself only scum are aware of my alignment. For everyone else, the "unless a, b and c are scum" argument will include me.
My argument is at least enough to convince myself, so I'll be scouring the thread for the next couple of hours to see if my "gut scum reads" so far have any merit and if so push that/those case(s) instead. If it turns out that they are going nowhere, I will vote kush. But I still feel we have enough time to at least have a discussion on the topic of "just wtf is going on here?!". On September 29 2012 18:28 Alsn wrote:
A quick addendum, I'm aware that scum pushing the lynch does not exonerate kush since they could be bussing him. However, given the assumption that kush is scum and there are active scum among the voters, I just find it more likely that they would try and find another solution than bussing, especially since it's D1. That's my main reason for not being convinced that kush is scum. On September 29 2012 21:15 Alsn wrote:
I've been doing some soul searching and I'm starting to agree that it's not worth it to try and push any other cases right now.
Mostly because my entire premise was that I was thinking it to be unlikely for kush to be scum. I realise that after trying to put into words why I think that is so, I have nothing other than the fact that I "feel" him to be town, which is a really stupid reason for absolving him. I thought I could back it up by saying he's been pressured to hard, there's no way he's responsible for not scum hunting. But in the end, I can't find a logical reason to forgive him if I exclude my own gut feeling from the equation.
I think now that my best option is to hold on to whatever small reads I have(because while I have some suspicions, I don't think they are rock solid) until after the lynch is over. Because at least then, we will have more information.
So for now, although my gut is screaming at me, I'll commit to voting for kush, mostly because most of what I said about BosoN has returned somewhat satisfactory answers, I really don't like the way a lot of people got away with not basically posting anything at all(I'm looking at you, Djodref, corrosion, Omniscient, RemedySC). I think that's probably what irks me the most, the thing I was most hoping would not happen, did happen.
##Vote: kushm4sta sup scum? anyone? I got a lot of thoughts on this case, but as I'm typing them out I realize I'd rather have Alsn respond in detail first. I'll just say I'm not convinced atm. Not convinced about what? About the case. Like I said, I'd rather have Alsn respond first.
This sounds interesting. I may have to wait around to see what happens.
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I'm back, just read through the last couple of posts. I don't see the benefit of me just continually defending myself, I've conceded that with the way I misread some posts my posts come off as quite scummy, since the only explanation I have is that my arguments contradicted obvious truths which unfortunately was unbeknownst to me at the time, thus leading me to suspect people for faulty reasons.
If you absolutely want me to respond in more detail I will, but I don't see the town benefit in me spending a bunch of time explaining my reasons for my posting so far, since anything I say at this point could just be seen as scum excuses. I made some mistakes in my reasoning, chiefly overreacting to Darth pressuring me, but also probably overestimated how scummy Z-BosoN's early comments were.
If anything, I'd rather be held responsible if I don't actually shape up from now on.
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On September 30 2012 22:03 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:And to clarify a couple of things about my case on Djo now that I'm up to date on the thread: 1. Latching on to others reads: As newbie scum it's really hard to make original cases. I had first hand experience Cubu and Imcasey in XXVI. The only case Imcasey could make was against our scum buddy Xatalos (that's quite easy because he knew he was scum). We had a similar situation with Debears in XXVII, at least in the beginning where the only case he could make was a defense of Thrawn, which is easy to do because he knew knew he was town (well, he flipped SK, but Debears couldn't know). 2. How can anyone buy into Kush's defense that easily? A newbie town is usually very suspcicious and it was a really silly defense, at the very best null. Using "player" and "people" sounds awkward? How isn't that an obvious lie? + Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 20:12 kushm4sta wrote:
2. My supposed scumslip: huh? What else should I have called you? Player? Person? Maybe but to me those things sound awkward. Townie just seemed like the most non awkward word to use.
Innocent until proven guilty. That's how we do it in America bro.
As for the other lurkers, I don't find Remedy suspicious, rather the opposite although his post count is still low. Nothing really stuck out to me the same way Djo did when reading Omn's and Corrosion's filter.
Yeah. Both excellent points. Number 2 in particular didn't really sit well with me. He was far more inclined to believe that kush was town rather than scum. Which is not the behaviour of a townie. As you say, townies are naturally inclined towards suspicion.
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I'm working on a post that might interest some of the people that have commented on me recently. I'm going to have some dinner now, but I'll try to get it out well before the end of the night. It's going to be a long one, and will probably have better content than some of my earlier posts. Maybe it will have some influence on the night actions as well.
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On September 30 2012 22:08 Alsn wrote:
I'm back, just read through the last couple of posts. I don't see the benefit of me just continually defending myself, I've conceded that with the way I misread some posts my posts come off as quite scummy, since the only explanation I have is that my arguments contradicted obvious truths which unfortunately was unbeknownst to me at the time, thus leading me to suspect people for faulty reasons.
If you absolutely want me to respond in more detail I will, but I don't see the town benefit in me spending a bunch of time explaining my reasons for my posting so far, since anything I say at this point could just be seen as scum excuses. I made some mistakes in my reasoning, chiefly overreacting to Darth pressuring me, but also probably overestimated how scummy Z-BosoN's early comments were.
If anything, I'd rather be held responsible if I don't actually shape up from now on.
Alright. Well I think there are some good arguments made against you, but some I find weak. At least that was my initial reaction to the case. I will have to think about the case some more to make sense of it all, but in any case I don't see any reason to give you potential easy outs.
Right now I'm most suspicious of Djo and Debears.
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On September 30 2012 22:08 Alsn wrote:
I'm back, just read through the last couple of posts. I don't see the benefit of me just continually defending myself, I've conceded that with the way I misread some posts my posts come off as quite scummy, since the only explanation I have is that my arguments contradicted obvious truths which unfortunately was unbeknownst to me at the time, thus leading me to suspect people for faulty reasons.
If you absolutely want me to respond in more detail I will, but I don't see the town benefit in me spending a bunch of time explaining my reasons for my posting so far, since anything I say at this point could just be seen as scum excuses. I made some mistakes in my reasoning, chiefly overreacting to Darth pressuring me, but also probably overestimated how scummy Z-BosoN's early comments were.
If anything, I'd rather be held responsible if I don't actually shape up from now on.
OK who are your top scum reads and why? Who are your top town reads and why?
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Wait. I almost forgot. Debears tried really hard to distance himself from the scum by association case. Before Kush flipped red. Like debears was trying to limit the damage.
On September 29 2012 16:31 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 15:21 debears wrote:
@djo
What parts of his case specifically do you believe?
His main case against me is contradiction. Look at my case against thrawn in the last game. What was the main point of that argument? Inconsistency. Its an easy point for scum to point out.
There are two possibilities for kushvin my eyes
1) a mafiab tryingbto pity his way out off a lynch
2) a townie acting likeva total noob with accusations against him.
Which has less assumptions? Number 1.
My problen with the scum by associstion is the case that i was defendung kush earky on. That us false i was trying ti communicate ti darth that his reasoning wad based off such a strong s assumption early in the game. In fact, I'd say that z-bosons case against me is the same. He looks at the mafia side only, which to me is a indicator of mafia. I can't make a case dur to drinking and being on my phone.
My read in you is that you are sheeping onto cases. I don't like it because i did the same.
Why do you think i would refer you to a coach? What are the townie and mafia motivations behind it.
@z-boson
The same question stated the line above refers to you
Why are you so desperate to distance yourself from a Kush red flip? Regardless of the answer, we can deal with any association cases between yourself and Kush after the flip. The fact is though. That is the weakest part of the case against you. So of course the only part that you really defend. You are essentially saying Z - Boson has confirmation Bias. This is not the case. His case against you stands on it's own merits. Your defense consists of trying to discredit it's author. That does not stop the facts being what they are. Z - Boson only brought them to light.
On September 30 2012 00:02 debears wrote:Alright guys, sobered up and reading to go into ass kicking mode. At this point, kush is going to be lynched. However, some of you faultily believe this “association case” linking me and kush by Boson and his case against me. I originally intended this to be a pure defense case, but after typing it out, Z-Boson comes across scummy to me. Anyways here we go. Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 05:29 Z-BosoN wrote:All right, I went through debears filter now, and I'm confident he is scum. Let's go through this more carefully now. His first post: + Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 11:05 debears wrote:Lol. Kush already going at it. Hey guys. I'm debears. This is my second game ever of mafia. I have a couple of things to add: + Show Spoiler +Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 09:18 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 09:10 Z-BosoN wrote:On September 28 2012 08:43 DarthPunk wrote:
It is not impossible to find scum on the first day. Policy lynches get you no info, you are most likely going to hit a townie, and you end up in the same position the next day minus 2 town. @Djodref your 'day plan' is unnecessary. Scum hunt, vote for your top scum read and everything else will fall into place. After LVII I'm rather liking the idea of policy lynches, in extreme cases. Killing lurkers in a lurker-infested town, for example, is something I'm inclined to agree on. If the town proves itself active, then whoever proves himself scummier will occupy the noose. Given that this is a newbie game, scums are generally more scared to post. While that is a general tendency, I don't agree with mass posters being cleared right off the bat, even if their posts seem meaningful. What I suggest in this game, is that people read. From my few games, much time is usually wasted discussing things that have not been read properly. On September 28 2012 06:56 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:
Cool, we're on. Pretty bad timing though, I'm off to bed and then I've got a day at uni before I can really start posting. I hope to God when I get back we've moved past the lurker policy discussion. My message to newbies: the best way for you to clear yourself is to post a lot. Don't post just for the sake of posting though, that'll make you look like scum because posting for the sake of posting is what scum do. This is a rather useless post. Newbie towns want to scumhunt. Newbie scum want to look like they are scumhunting. That =/= posting a lot but not for the sake of posting, or whatever you meant. And please tell me, what do you mean? You say you hope to have moved past the lurker discussion, and yet you are telling people to post a lot? In my eyes you are telling people not to lurk because that will make them seem scummy. It seems to me that you are indirectly stating your views on lurkers despite openly saying you don't want to talk about them. Meh. Don't like lurker policy lynches at all. It just tells scum: Post. and your safe. I have read every post so far as scummy and I don't see SDM's post as more or less scummy than the others. But posting a lot will let people get a good read on you so you should 100% be doing this as town. And then if all the townies are posting you force scum to. Which makes it much easier to nab them also. SO. Post a lot if you are town. You make scum uncomfortable and facilitate town reads on yourself and scum reads on scum. You also clutter the thread if you just post alot. Let me specify. Post quality as often as you can. That means reread the thread and build good cases. One liners don't do much good. Cases with multiple quotes and a few sentences of explanation per quote are good (most of the time). Also, USE YOUR COACHES TOWN. Thrawn pmed Hapa over 50 times last game and he had the best town performance. That isn't a coincidence. @Kush I don't like the way you are starting off this game kush. It's eerily similar as last game when you were mafia. You mention you're deathless streak, nk, and your scummy meta without anyone bringing it up. You should know that I most likely know you're trends better than anyone else in this game. The only difference between this game and last is that you have engaged in a flame war with Darth this game, which is unhelpful to our town. FOS Kush@everyone One more thing: Feel free to accuse and build cases on anyone you want for the first 24 hours. However, let's start tunneling for the second 24 hours. Also, I would like everyone to start considering a lurker (in your head) once we hit the second 24 hours as a backup. If we get close to the lynch deadline, and there are no scummy candidates, feel free to post a good case on which lurker would be the best candidate. First of all, his "I want town to win!!" post telling town to use their coaches. He then FoS's Kush, due to the fact that he's playing a similar game as the one he was scum. He says that DP + kush flame war is bad for the town, but doesn't attack Darthpunk, probably because he finds kush to be more scummy looking. Now, from a townie perspective, what does debear want? Information in order to lynch kush, as he pointed a FOS mostly based on a meta read. But suddenly, towards darthpunk:
snip --You could also say that you are too convinced in your reasons. What I am cautious of at this point is that you stated directly before the game that you were after kush if he plays like he has in his past 3 games. I feel like that may be clouding your judgement in this situation. Our main goal is to lynch mafia. Yes, kush has said some scummy things. However, I'm not gonna go around parading this early saying "kush is scum. Kush is scum. OMFG". Also, let the man defend himself instead of trying to rally everyone active behind your cause so early. If he is scummy, the votes will come. He is defensive towards kush. That's not how townies think. While I agree that DP is a bit overboard on kush, I don't agree that he failed to give arguments as to why he thinks that is so. A townie with a FOS on someone will want to deal with the arguments first. He doesn't do that, and suddenly becomes defensive on Kush. He says, later:
I'm not defending him as much as I'm trying to tell you that you are going overboard right now. You don't have to rush in annointing him scum. He is more bothered by DPs certainty than by his actual arguments. Inconsistency #1. He then comes up with two cases. One against me, and one against Djoref: @Boson
+ Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 09:10 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 08:43 DarthPunk wrote:
It is not impossible to find scum on the first day. Policy lynches get you no info, you are most likely going to hit a townie, and you end up in the same position the next day minus 2 town. @Djodref your 'day plan' is unnecessary. Scum hunt, vote for your top scum read and everything else will fall into place. After LVII I'm rather liking the idea of policy lynches, in extreme cases. Killing lurkers in a lurker-infested town, for example, is something I'm inclined to agree on. If the town proves itself active, then whoever proves himself scummier will occupy the noose. Given that this is a newbie game, scums are generally more scared to post. While that is a general tendency, I don't agree with mass posters being cleared right off the bat, even if their posts seem meaningful. What I suggest in this game, is that people read. From my few games, much time is usually wasted discussing things that have not been read properly. Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 06:56 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:
Cool, we're on. Pretty bad timing though, I'm off to bed and then I've got a day at uni before I can really start posting. I hope to God when I get back we've moved past the lurker policy discussion. My message to newbies: the best way for you to clear yourself is to post a lot. Don't post just for the sake of posting though, that'll make you look like scum because posting for the sake of posting is what scum do. This is a rather useless post. Newbie towns want to scumhunt. Newbie scum want to look like they are scumhunting. That =/= posting a lot but not for the sake of posting, or whatever you meant. And please tell me, what do you mean? You say you hope to have moved past the lurker discussion, and yet you are telling people to post a lot? In my eyes you are telling people not to lurk because that will make them seem scummy. It seems to me that you are indirectly stating your views on lurkers despite openly saying you don't want to talk about them. Boson, please try not to read too hard into a person's very first posts and make something out of nothing. It is pretty clear what sonic was saying. He wants newbies to post so that they don't get grouped under the lurker corral that usually follows up later. Last game, we had lurkers galore and it really messed up the town. Also, you mention that his post is useless. Now I will examine your two other posts in terms of uselessness. On September 28 2012 09:12 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 09:01 kushm4sta wrote:On September 28 2012 08:34 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 06:58 kushm4sta wrote:
@sonic
getting everyone's thoughts on lurker policy is important. Don't argue about it but share your views on the matter please.. No it's not. It is simply a mechanism to get the discussion going and allows scum to seem to participate and to potentially mislynch an inactive townie. Any more talk of policy will get you FoS'd. Sorry but who appointed this asshole boss? you get people's thoughts on lurker policy, so you can catch them deviating from it later and question them about it. And why are you that scared of a FOS? A one-liner. A question that really doesn't accomplish anything. In other words, a useless post. Also, your next post doesn't address his response although he responded right after and you posted within 30 minutes of his response in a pretty light thread. On September 28 2012 09:43 Z-BosoN wrote:
@DP
Saying we will lynch lurkers is one thing. Deciding whether a lurker should die later at day two is another.
What I said is I'm inclined to lynch a lurker if there aren't better choices, not that we will 100% lynch a lurker.
@Stutters
I'd like to see more posts from you. In XXIV you showed you were capable of making decent posts as town, so I encourage you to post eve more here.
@kush
What's your view on darthpunk? You said you don't like his coldness, but you don't like it in a "he's scum" sort of way? Yet again, nothing of substance here. You go more in depth about semantics (is that the right word I'm looking for?) about lynching lurkers and lynching lurkers at day two. Second, you call out stutters, who has already been warned by others and most likely the mods for no reason this early in the game. Finally, two sentences, two questions going on about the exact wording of kush's statements. It sounded like before the game you had stated that you have played in multiple games. Is that true? For someone who is telling other people to not post useless posts, you aren't doing a good job of it yourself. Looks more like you are trying to just be active while off the radar. In other words, you are a semi-active lurker who has bad post quality. Sounds like characteristics of a certain alignment. On September 28 2012 08:51 Djodref wrote:
@Darthpunk
Nevermind you look just more confident to get a scum on D1 than me.
Regarding my plan, I think we need general directions to follow because of the majority lynch.
It is a way to gather everybody around 2-3 suspicious players and secure a lynch. I'm assuming everyone agree on a no-lynch to be stupid.
Djoref, I don't like that statement at all. That's the second post you bring up about the likelihood of lynching a townie d1. As town, you should never have that mentality. I would probably less likely to bring this up if you were a total nooby. However, you said you "know Kush's meta" which means you have some decent understanding of the game for a noob. By saying this, it seems that you are setting yourself an excuse to be indecisive later in the day when the lynch voting comes around. Alone, it isn't much. However, your other posts don't help. On September 28 2012 08:44 Djodref wrote:
@Darthpunk
Considering that we are likely to lynch a town on D1, don't you think it's a lesser wrong to get rid of someone inactive ?
Inactivity means no scumhunt and room to hide for the mafia...
After playing mafia last game, I feel like heavy lurking is a bad play for mafia. It puts too much pressure on you are as a scum. Instead, posting lightly without much substance is more mafia indicative. Yet again, I feel you are just looking like you are contributing without saying much. Especially when you already covered your thoughts in a previous post. On September 28 2012 08:36 Djodref wrote:Hello everybody ! About meThis is my first game ever on forum but I've been playing on SC2mafia and also irl. But I've been lurking on the TL Mafia forum for a while (so I know your meta kush^^) and I decided to join this newbie game. I'm also a French guy and I live in Korea so my english is not on top and it's going to ne difficult for me to be around at deadline (5.00 am KST). Lurker policyFrom the games I've seen, unless you have a golden scumslip on d1, it's very difficult to lynch a scum the very first day.
So I have no problem ending up voting for the most suspicious lurker at the end of the day. I define most suspicious lurker as a semi-lurker just trying to blend in.Day PlanI don't think to be able to be around for the first deadline so I would like to propose a day plan to secure a lynch as we are using a majority vote. First 24 hours to find lynch candidates while scumhunting and next 20 hours to decide who is the scummiest. Last 4 hours to consolidate the vote or switch to a lurker. Please discuss Notice how you are just repeating points? It isn't helpful to us. Next post On September 28 2012 11:09 Djodref wrote:@Kush Was it also a joke ? How can you be so sure you are not going to be NKed ? A two sentence, two question post. I don't like these. They are worthless. Also, this question came quite a bit later after darthpunk already was asking questions about joking. You seem to be sheeping onto darth's case against kush. On September 28 2012 11:53 Djodref wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 11:22 kushm4sta wrote:
Because the most active townie is tunneling me?
I would also like to hear you explanations about this specific part. I don't have a read on Darth on the moment considering he has only been hard tunneling you. As you said yourself you have a scummy meta so you are an easy target for early game to put pressure on. So what makes him so much town ? Yet again, this post is just repeating what darth is saying. Another question. I don't like this. Your early posts are indicative of a semi-active scum. Sheeping, question posts, and rehashing things already said multiple times. Notice the similarity between the two. He attacks us for asking questions (later on denies that they provide any discussion whatsoever), and falls into the same "semi-active lurker" category he's sniffing about. I will ignore the quality of his arguments, which I personally think are horrible, and will look more towards their similarity. From his case against me:A one-liner. A question that really doesn't accomplish anything. In other words, a useless post. Also, your next post doesn't address his response although he responded right after and you posted within 30 minutes of his response in a pretty light thread. For someone who is telling other people to not post useless posts, you aren't doing a good job of it yourself. Looks more like you are trying to just be active while off the radar. In other words, you are a semi-active lurker who has bad post quality. Sounds like characteristics of a certain alignment. From his case against Djoref:A two sentence, two question post. I don't like these. They are worthless. Also, this question came quite a bit later after darthpunk already was asking questions about joking. You seem to be sheeping onto darth's case against kush. Your early posts are indicative of a semi-active scum. Sheeping, question posts, and rehashing things already said multiple times. See the similarity, especially the bolded part? It seems that he has this "semi-active scum" cake recipe that he is using to sniff out scum. He also calls us out on our posting quality, in my case saying it is bad. I won't address his next post towards me because I've already done so, and because it doesn't increase his scumminess , as "bad cases =/= scum" (although it pisses me off). Anyways, now to the main stuff. He has a case against me and Djoref, for pretty much the same reasoning. Yet, check out what his next post on Djoref is: On September 29 2012 01:55 debears wrote:@Djoref Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 15:22 Djodref wrote:
@DarthPunk
For your information, i consider the comments of debears on my posts legitimate. Let me say that I even don't like them. Currently reading the guides and older game analysis. Please pm marv for help. The coaches are great Wtf??? What ?? Where is his case against Djoref?? He goes from a scummy-looking sheep with one liners to a "townie who should pm marv for help"? Could he have forgotten that Djoref was one of his main suspicions? Inconsistency #2
Note that I no longer think that his defense of SDM is scummy. I've gone over that a few times and I admit that it can also come from a townie perspective. To summarize, here are the main inconsistencies in his play that scream to me SCUM: 1) He had a FOS on kush, then hurried on to defend him, in the manner I've shown above. I cannot fathom for the life of me having a FOS on someone and suddenly feel like I have to address an exaggeration on that person before I actually address the case.
2) He completely absolves Djoref for absolutely no reason. Townies do not throw around suspicions only to insta-drop them.3) The other supporting arguments I've shown above.debears is SCUM!##vote debears Note the use of red in this whole thing is to clarify what I’m refuting. Inconsistency 1 1) My “want to win”, use the coaches pm has mainly townie motivation. Why wouldn't I tell everyone to PM their coaches after last game? Hapapauli specifically mentioned how Thrawn was the only one actually getting help from him. There can be some mafia WIFOM argument, but that is assuming more than the fact I want to win and the obvious townie motivation for it. 2) Next, you say that I don’t attack DarthPunk. While I never attacked DarthPunk (he had good reasoning for suspecting kush), I did tell him to cool his jets and stop trying to convince others to his argument so early in the game, especially since kush was afk at the moment darth attacked kush. Now, because of his early hardcore tunnel, we are in a situation where the lynch is one sided. That doesn’t do really any good for us unless he is mafia. If he turns town, we gave the mafia a veil to hide under. Another townie side Z-Boson failed to address. 3) From a townie perspective, I wanted more information on kush, and I wanted to spread out some focus on other people early on to avoid a one sided lynch for the reasons in 2), hence the posts directed at Djo and Z-Boson early on. 4) Then, your points about me being defensive at kush were not defenses of kush’s actions. They were attempts to tell darth to chill out and subdue some of his power trip, which I said in both quotes that you post in that section. 5) When you say a townie with a FOS will want to deal with arguments first, that is true. However, kush was afk at the moment and darth was hammering him without kush able to defend himself at a very early point in time in the game. As stated above, look at the situation we are in now if kush flips town. Inconsistency 2 1) If you looked at my posts after my “PM marv for help” post, I believe corrosion instantly assumed that I confirmed him town. That is not true at all. Notice A) Djo is a noob and B) I said COACHES. The word townie was never said in the sentence. You guys are putting words in my mouth. Also, note how in one of Djo’s prior posts, he says he was going to go look at guides. I don’t understand why you guys are so eager to jump on someone trying to help a newbie. Yet again, townie motivation: If Djo is town, it will greatly help us if he gets help. Even if he isn't, it will raise the quality of this NEWBIE game and help us all improve if he gets help. Ending 1) I want to quote something from Bosons post. “Note that I no longer think that his defense of SDM is scummy. I've gone over that a few times and I admit that it can also come from a townie perspective.” By his logic, that does not factor into my case. Also, how do the other two reasons in your post not have a townie perspective/motivation? 2) The list of 1,2,3 Boson made at the bottom. If I read the post correctly, the only other argument is that my cases against Djo and Z-Bo early one were a "scum recipe". To that, I say duh. Semi-active lurker is a place where mafia can hide to look like they are contributing without actually doing so. I noticed this last game with JacobStrangeLove. I also read some guides that state that. Why wouldn't I call you out early when there's not much to go on? Now for z-bos next post right after the post in which he attacked me (5 min after to be exact): + Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 05:34 Z-BosoN wrote:
I'm not against a kush lynch atm, but from what I gather kush's case is mostly meta-based with a side dish of not-scumhunting and also general scummy-looking posts. I think my evidence against debear is much more damning. Please read carefully his posts and my case and see if you don't agree. So he bashs me for “defending kush” (according to himself) and then infers that the evidence against kush isn’t the greatest. That’s not very consistent. On September 29 2012 05:55 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 05:46 kushm4sta wrote:On September 29 2012 05:29 Z-BosoN wrote:All right, I went through debears filter now, and I'm confident he is scum. Let's go through this more carefully now. His first post: On September 28 2012 11:05 debears wrote:Lol. Kush already going at it. Hey guys. I'm debears. This is my second game ever of mafia. I have a couple of things to add: + Show Spoiler +Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 09:18 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 09:10 Z-BosoN wrote:On September 28 2012 08:43 DarthPunk wrote:
It is not impossible to find scum on the first day. Policy lynches get you no info, you are most likely going to hit a townie, and you end up in the same position the next day minus 2 town. @Djodref your 'day plan' is unnecessary. Scum hunt, vote for your top scum read and everything else will fall into place. After LVII I'm rather liking the idea of policy lynches, in extreme cases. Killing lurkers in a lurker-infested town, for example, is something I'm inclined to agree on. If the town proves itself active, then whoever proves himself scummier will occupy the noose. Given that this is a newbie game, scums are generally more scared to post. While that is a general tendency, I don't agree with mass posters being cleared right off the bat, even if their posts seem meaningful. What I suggest in this game, is that people read. From my few games, much time is usually wasted discussing things that have not been read properly. On September 28 2012 06:56 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:
Cool, we're on. Pretty bad timing though, I'm off to bed and then I've got a day at uni before I can really start posting. I hope to God when I get back we've moved past the lurker policy discussion. My message to newbies: the best way for you to clear yourself is to post a lot. Don't post just for the sake of posting though, that'll make you look like scum because posting for the sake of posting is what scum do. This is a rather useless post. Newbie towns want to scumhunt. Newbie scum want to look like they are scumhunting. That =/= posting a lot but not for the sake of posting, or whatever you meant. And please tell me, what do you mean? You say you hope to have moved past the lurker discussion, and yet you are telling people to post a lot? In my eyes you are telling people not to lurk because that will make them seem scummy. It seems to me that you are indirectly stating your views on lurkers despite openly saying you don't want to talk about them. Meh. Don't like lurker policy lynches at all. It just tells scum: Post. and your safe. I have read every post so far as scummy and I don't see SDM's post as more or less scummy than the others. But posting a lot will let people get a good read on you so you should 100% be doing this as town. And then if all the townies are posting you force scum to. Which makes it much easier to nab them also. SO. Post a lot if you are town. You make scum uncomfortable and facilitate town reads on yourself and scum reads on scum. You also clutter the thread if you just post alot. Let me specify. Post quality as often as you can. That means reread the thread and build good cases. One liners don't do much good. Cases with multiple quotes and a few sentences of explanation per quote are good (most of the time). Also, USE YOUR COACHES TOWN. Thrawn pmed Hapa over 50 times last game and he had the best town performance. That isn't a coincidence. @Kush I don't like the way you are starting off this game kush. It's eerily similar as last game when you were mafia. You mention you're deathless streak, nk, and your scummy meta without anyone bringing it up. You should know that I most likely know you're trends better than anyone else in this game. The only difference between this game and last is that you have engaged in a flame war with Darth this game, which is unhelpful to our town. FOS Kush@everyone One more thing: Feel free to accuse and build cases on anyone you want for the first 24 hours. However, let's start tunneling for the second 24 hours. Also, I would like everyone to start considering a lurker (in your head) once we hit the second 24 hours as a backup. If we get close to the lynch deadline, and there are no scummy candidates, feel free to post a good case on which lurker would be the best candidate. First of all, his "I want town to win!!" post telling town to use their coaches. He then FoS's Kush, due to the fact that he's playing a similar game as the one he was scum. He says that DP + kush flame war is bad for the town, but doesn't attack Darthpunk, probably because he finds kush to be more scummy looking. Now, from a townie perspective, what does debear want? Information in order to lynch kush, as he pointed a FOS mostly based on a meta read. But suddenly, towards darthpunk: snip --You could also say that you are too convinced in your reasons. What I am cautious of at this point is that you stated directly before the game that you were after kush if he plays like he has in his past 3 games. I feel like that may be clouding your judgement in this situation.
Our main goal is to lynch mafia. Yes, kush has said some scummy things. However, I'm not gonna go around parading this early saying "kush is scum. Kush is scum. OMFG".
Also, let the man defend himself instead of trying to rally everyone active behind your cause so early. If he is scummy, the votes will come. He is defensive towards kush. That's not how townies think. While I agree that DP is a bit overboard on kush, I don't agree that he failed to give arguments as to why he thinks that is so. A townie with a FOS on someone will want to deal with the arguments first. He doesn't do that, and suddenly becomes defensive on Kush. He says, later: I'm not defending him as much as I'm trying to tell you that you are going overboard right now. You don't have to rush in annointing him scum. He is more bothered by DPs certainty than by his actual arguments. Inconsistency #1. He then comes up with two cases. One against me, and one against Djoref: @Boson
+ Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 09:10 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 08:43 DarthPunk wrote:
It is not impossible to find scum on the first day. Policy lynches get you no info, you are most likely going to hit a townie, and you end up in the same position the next day minus 2 town. @Djodref your 'day plan' is unnecessary. Scum hunt, vote for your top scum read and everything else will fall into place. After LVII I'm rather liking the idea of policy lynches, in extreme cases. Killing lurkers in a lurker-infested town, for example, is something I'm inclined to agree on. If the town proves itself active, then whoever proves himself scummier will occupy the noose. Given that this is a newbie game, scums are generally more scared to post. While that is a general tendency, I don't agree with mass posters being cleared right off the bat, even if their posts seem meaningful. What I suggest in this game, is that people read. From my few games, much time is usually wasted discussing things that have not been read properly. Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 06:56 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:
Cool, we're on. Pretty bad timing though, I'm off to bed and then I've got a day at uni before I can really start posting. I hope to God when I get back we've moved past the lurker policy discussion. My message to newbies: the best way for you to clear yourself is to post a lot. Don't post just for the sake of posting though, that'll make you look like scum because posting for the sake of posting is what scum do. This is a rather useless post. Newbie towns want to scumhunt. Newbie scum want to look like they are scumhunting. That =/= posting a lot but not for the sake of posting, or whatever you meant. And please tell me, what do you mean? You say you hope to have moved past the lurker discussion, and yet you are telling people to post a lot? In my eyes you are telling people not to lurk because that will make them seem scummy. It seems to me that you are indirectly stating your views on lurkers despite openly saying you don't want to talk about them. Boson, please try not to read too hard into a person's very first posts and make something out of nothing. It is pretty clear what sonic was saying. He wants newbies to post so that they don't get grouped under the lurker corral that usually follows up later. Last game, we had lurkers galore and it really messed up the town. Also, you mention that his post is useless. Now I will examine your two other posts in terms of uselessness. On September 28 2012 09:12 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 09:01 kushm4sta wrote:On September 28 2012 08:34 DarthPunk wrote:On September 28 2012 06:58 kushm4sta wrote:
@sonic
getting everyone's thoughts on lurker policy is important. Don't argue about it but share your views on the matter please.. No it's not. It is simply a mechanism to get the discussion going and allows scum to seem to participate and to potentially mislynch an inactive townie. Any more talk of policy will get you FoS'd. Sorry but who appointed this asshole boss? you get people's thoughts on lurker policy, so you can catch them deviating from it later and question them about it. And why are you that scared of a FOS? A one-liner. A question that really doesn't accomplish anything. In other words, a useless post. Also, your next post doesn't address his response although he responded right after and you posted within 30 minutes of his response in a pretty light thread. On September 28 2012 09:43 Z-BosoN wrote:
@DP
Saying we will lynch lurkers is one thing. Deciding whether a lurker should die later at day two is another.
What I said is I'm inclined to lynch a lurker if there aren't better choices, not that we will 100% lynch a lurker.
@Stutters
I'd like to see more posts from you. In XXIV you showed you were capable of making decent posts as town, so I encourage you to post eve more here.
@kush
What's your view on darthpunk? You said you don't like his coldness, but you don't like it in a "he's scum" sort of way? Yet again, nothing of substance here. You go more in depth about semantics (is that the right word I'm looking for?) about lynching lurkers and lynching lurkers at day two. Second, you call out stutters, who has already been warned by others and most likely the mods for no reason this early in the game. Finally, two sentences, two questions going on about the exact wording of kush's statements. It sounded like before the game you had stated that you have played in multiple games. Is that true? For someone who is telling other people to not post useless posts, you aren't doing a good job of it yourself. Looks more like you are trying to just be active while off the radar. In other words, you are a semi-active lurker who has bad post quality. Sounds like characteristics of a certain alignment. On September 28 2012 08:51 Djodref wrote:
@Darthpunk
Nevermind you look just more confident to get a scum on D1 than me.
Regarding my plan, I think we need general directions to follow because of the majority lynch.
It is a way to gather everybody around 2-3 suspicious players and secure a lynch. I'm assuming everyone agree on a no-lynch to be stupid.
Djoref, I don't like that statement at all. That's the second post you bring up about the likelihood of lynching a townie d1. As town, you should never have that mentality. I would probably less likely to bring this up if you were a total nooby. However, you said you "know Kush's meta" which means you have some decent understanding of the game for a noob. By saying this, it seems that you are setting yourself an excuse to be indecisive later in the day when the lynch voting comes around. Alone, it isn't much. However, your other posts don't help. On September 28 2012 08:44 Djodref wrote:
@Darthpunk
Considering that we are likely to lynch a town on D1, don't you think it's a lesser wrong to get rid of someone inactive ?
Inactivity means no scumhunt and room to hide for the mafia...
After playing mafia last game, I feel like heavy lurking is a bad play for mafia. It puts too much pressure on you are as a scum. Instead, posting lightly without much substance is more mafia indicative. Yet again, I feel you are just looking like you are contributing without saying much. Especially when you already covered your thoughts in a previous post. On September 28 2012 08:36 Djodref wrote:Hello everybody ! About meThis is my first game ever on forum but I've been playing on SC2mafia and also irl. But I've been lurking on the TL Mafia forum for a while (so I know your meta kush^^) and I decided to join this newbie game. I'm also a French guy and I live in Korea so my english is not on top and it's going to ne difficult for me to be around at deadline (5.00 am KST). Lurker policyFrom the games I've seen, unless you have a golden scumslip on d1, it's very difficult to lynch a scum the very first day.
So I have no problem ending up voting for the most suspicious lurker at the end of the day. I define most suspicious lurker as a semi-lurker just trying to blend in.Day PlanI don't think to be able to be around for the first deadline so I would like to propose a day plan to secure a lynch as we are using a majority vote. First 24 hours to find lynch candidates while scumhunting and next 20 hours to decide who is the scummiest. Last 4 hours to consolidate the vote or switch to a lurker. Please discuss Notice how you are just repeating points? It isn't helpful to us. Next post On September 28 2012 11:09 Djodref wrote:@Kush Was it also a joke ? How can you be so sure you are not going to be NKed ? A two sentence, two question post. I don't like these. They are worthless. Also, this question came quite a bit later after darthpunk already was asking questions about joking. You seem to be sheeping onto darth's case against kush. On September 28 2012 11:53 Djodref wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 11:22 kushm4sta wrote:
Because the most active townie is tunneling me?
I would also like to hear you explanations about this specific part. I don't have a read on Darth on the moment considering he has only been hard tunneling you. As you said yourself you have a scummy meta so you are an easy target for early game to put pressure on. So what makes him so much town ? Yet again, this post is just repeating what darth is saying. Another question. I don't like this. Your early posts are indicative of a semi-active scum. Sheeping, question posts, and rehashing things already said multiple times. Notice the similarity between the two. He attacks us for asking questions (later on denies that they provide any discussion whatsoever), and falls into the same "semi-active lurker" category he's sniffing about. I will ignore the quality of his arguments, which I personally think are horrible, and will look more towards their similarity. From his case against me:A one-liner. A question that really doesn't accomplish anything. In other words, a useless post. Also, your next post doesn't address his response although he responded right after and you posted within 30 minutes of his response in a pretty light thread. For someone who is telling other people to not post useless posts, you aren't doing a good job of it yourself. Looks more like you are trying to just be active while off the radar. In other words, you are a semi-active lurker who has bad post quality. Sounds like characteristics of a certain alignment. From his case against Djoref:A two sentence, two question post. I don't like these. They are worthless. Also, this question came quite a bit later after darthpunk already was asking questions about joking. You seem to be sheeping onto darth's case against kush. Your early posts are indicative of a semi-active scum. Sheeping, question posts, and rehashing things already said multiple times. See the similarity, especially the bolded part? It seems that he has this "semi-active scum" cake recipe that he is using to sniff out scum. He also calls us out on our posting quality, in my case saying it is bad. I won't address his next post towards me because I've already done so, and because it doesn't increase his scumminess , as "bad cases =/= scum" (although it pisses me off). Anyways, now to the main stuff. He has a case against me and Djoref, for pretty much the same reasoning. Yet, check out what his next post on Djoref is: On September 29 2012 01:55 debears wrote:@Djoref On September 28 2012 15:22 Djodref wrote:
@DarthPunk
For your information, i consider the comments of debears on my posts legitimate. Let me say that I even don't like them. Currently reading the guides and older game analysis. Please pm marv for help. The coaches are great Wtf??? What ?? Where is his case against Djoref?? He goes from a scummy-looking sheep with one liners to a "townie who should pm marv for help"? Could he have forgotten that Djoref was one of his main suspicions? Inconsistency #2
Note that I no longer think that his defense of SDM is scummy. I've gone over that a few times and I admit that it can also come from a townie perspective. To summarize, here are the main inconsistencies in his play that scream to me SCUM: 1) He had a FOS on kush, then hurried on to defend him, in the manner I've shown above. I cannot fathom for the life of me having a FOS on someone and suddenly feel like I have to address an exaggeration on that person before I actually address the case. 2) He completely absolves Djoref for absolutely no reason. Townies do not throw around suspicions only to insta-drop them. 3) The other supporting arguments I've shown above.debears is SCUM!##vote debears Hi z bozon. Inconsistencies do not make someone scum. Also it's quite funny how you are so certain this early in the game. To summarize this awesome post: your case is not strong. you are overconfident in your scumread. But oh they can. Scum can't genuinely scumhunt, and will usually make mistakes in doing so. This early in the game, debears has managed to quickly change his mind about pursuing scum not once, but twice. Him just forgetting all about Djoref and basically assuming him to be town was just ??SDFG ?A?SDF?A?SDF?. His inconsistencies to me look more scummy then townie, especially when looking at how repetitive his arguments are. Who do you think is a better lynch then, kush? Grace us with a case. I would like to know how I changed my mind twice on scumhunting. Just because someone looks scummy, we don’t need to bash their heads in with the same evidence over and over and over again. In kush’s case, Darth had gone overboard and was sufficiently bashing in kush’s head by himself. What’s the point in me picking up a club and going after him when he was afk? In Djo’s case, I called him out for the quality of his posting. He is a newbie. I decided it was best to not attack him and let him actually get into the game. As I said, I don’t read too much into early posts. Also, the reason why I “changed my mind” is that Z-boson was becoming a scum read to me. His OMGUS FOS set off alarms in my head. His posts since then are picking out only the mafia motivations or stating the townie motivations and instantly discarding them. It is hard to split my focus on 3 people at a time, so I’d rather worry about Z-Bo and Kush than chase a newbie around. Alright on to another post + Show Spoiler +QUOTE]On September 29 2012 06:41 Z-BosoN wrote:
kush this "act" you are playing is not helping you, and is not helping town. Man the fuck up and make cases against people, try to defend yourself. I'd much rather lynch debears because I find the arguments against him to be much more substantial than the ones against you, which are mostly meta-based. I disagree with a meta-based lynch when I've provided real arguments against someone else (which, incidentally you shat on. It seems like you actually want to get lynched)
If you are town that is. If you are scum, go ahead and keep moaning, I'll gladly choose you over debears.
Yet again, he doesn’t like the case against kush, yet one of the main parts of his scumread on me was that I defended kush.
+ Show Spoiler + On September 29 2012 10:28 Z-BosoN wrote:
READ
An interesting snippet from the op: Show nested quote +Play to win.
This means you play your best to help your team win while you are alive and in the game. However, this does not mean that you should try to win by being a jerk to the other players so they all want to quit playing. So, read my exchange with him. I try a billion times to help him, and what does he do? Choose to mock me case and be insulting. That's not playing to win if he's town. His sudden change of attitude probably came from a mod-warning, due to what I've quoted, and I'll assume this to be true. Now I have two train of thoughts that I'm killing myself over: 1) Lynch him. He's bad to have in the endgame and is a detriment to the town, no matter his alignment. His change of attitude might have come from his scummy friends, because I sure as hell couldn't sway him. 2) Assume he is a townie. Why can we do that? Because I am almost certain that his change of attitude came from a mod-warning. If he was mafia he wouldn't have gotten a mod-warning, because his play could have very well been some schematics or whatever. However, there is no town-motivation for his play whatsoever, and the way he mocked me is a completely infant behavior that does not go with a "play-to-win" scenario. However... There is one instance where he could have gotten a mod-warning as mafia. Observe this post: Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 07:44 kushm4sta wrote:
debears I saved you bro...scumteam 4 lyfe If debears is indeed mafia, he would have gotten a mod-warning for basically giving in his teammate. This makes a lot of sense, if we can assume he got a mod-warning. And SO I propose.... We lynch him. If I am correct in my assessment and he flips scum, then debears is most likely also scum and kush managed to ruin the game. If he flips town, then we are down someone who will be a detriment to the town, so I'm confident he is a good lynch for us right now.
This post…..Not only is it an association case, it’s an association case BASED ON MOD WARNINGS and assuming a mod warning off one random post of kush’s, especially when that post references the scum team that I was on with kush in the last game…
Boson is going out of his way to pin me as scum, especially before kush even flips….I don’t get this.
Next post,
+ Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 11:03 Z-BosoN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 10:36 debears wrote:
@kush
The ambiguous statement i made qbout you in the start of my vote post was addressed to your feeling of hoplessness despite your early enthusiasm
@k boson
You're association case is assuming way too much. Use ockhams razor. We can't assume modwarnings. That is ridiculous. Especially when using that reason to cherrypick his posts to create an association case That only adds to the fact that I already have a strong scumread of you. Whatever his alignment, I'm pushing for you next.
So he says two things here.
1) That the post he quoted “added” to his scumread. Then he makes NO MENTION of why it does.
2) He specifically states that he is going for me no matter the outcome. Why has he already done this without seeing the flip? Seems like he knows kush’s alignment and doesn’t have to consider what is going on here today…
Next post
On September 29 2012 11:32 Z-BosoN wrote:
DP, did you read my exchange with him? It's pointless discussing with him.
I think it would be more productive if you would read my case on debears and see if you agree with it.
I don’t understand why Boson is lobbying his case against me still. It is a weak case based on mafia assumptions only. I hate this kind of play. If your case is good, people will believe it and vote for it. He is trying so hard to have his notions confirmed.
Final part of this (thank god)
On September 29 2012 14:12 Z-BosoN wrote:
They are probably just echoing the suspicion I posted earlier, concerning my assumption on mods.
It's a theory I have in case he pops scum. Don't treat it as an argument. Treat my case as an argument.
Everyone who’s experience knows association cases are dumb without a flip unless it’s late game. You are making an early game association case and you make a huge post about it. How is that not an argument? Now you have everyone saying “debears is likely scum”.
FOS Z-Boson
If kush did not implode this game, I would be voting for Z-Boson right now.
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