Newbie Mini Mafia XXVIII - Page 2

On September 29 2012 06:39 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:


Pointing out another scum slip at this point seems kind of redundant, but anyway, what the fuck? We're only like 24h into the game and you've got only 2 votes. Why would you give up at this point? You're being so anti-town it'll be hard for anyone not to vote on you, but if you shape up there's still a lot of time.

Anyway, really need to get some sleep now. I'm out.

it seems like I am.beyond helping myself. why would I want to help a town that is going to lynch me

Play to win.
This means you play your best to help your team win while you are alive and in the game. However, this does not mean that you should try to win by being a jerk to the other players so they all want to quit playing.

On September 29 2012 07:44 kushm4sta wrote:
debears I saved you bro...scumteam 4 lyfe

On September 29 2012 10:36 debears wrote:
@kush

The ambiguous statement i made qbout you in the start of my vote post was addressed to your feeling of hoplessness despite your early enthusiasm

@k boson

You're association case is assuming way too much. Use ockhams razor. We can't assume modwarnings. That is ridiculous. Especially when using that reason to cherrypick his posts to create an association case

I saw your town meta in XXVI. This is not it. You are capable of pro town play. This is not it.

On September 30 2012 00:02 debears wrote:
Alright guys, sobered up and reading to go into ass kicking mode. At this point, kush is going to be lynched. However, some of you faultily believe this “association case” linking me and kush by Boson and his case against me. I originally intended this to be a pure defense case, but after typing it out, Z-Boson comes across scummy to me. Anyways here we go.

Yea, I was already a suspect on your list, so at least you realized that people were expecting a case.




Note the use of red in this whole thing is to clarify what I’m refuting.

Inconsistency 1
1) My “want to win”, use the coaches pm has mainly townie motivation. Why wouldn't I tell everyone to PM their coaches after last game? Hapapauli specifically mentioned how Thrawn was the only one actually getting help from him. There can be some mafia WIFOM argument, but that is assuming more than the fact I want to win and the obvious townie motivation for it.

That's right, there can be some Mafia WIFOM. I chose to add all the things that can come from mafia WIFOM and would go along with mafia rationale, but I didn't use them as main arguments.

2) Next, you say that I don’t attack DarthPunk. While I never attacked DarthPunk (he had good reasoning for suspecting kush), I did tell him to cool his jets and stop trying to convince others to his argument so early in the game, especially since kush was afk at the moment darth attacked kush. Now, because of his early hardcore tunnel, we are in a situation where the lynch is one sided. That doesn’t do really any good for us unless he is mafia. If he turns town, we gave the mafia a veil to hide under. Another townie side Z-Boson failed to address.

Come on man. that's not even a supporting argument. I just said you didn't attack DP to make it crystal clear that your FOS on kush was entirely meta-based, because if the flame wars was any suspicious, then you would FOS DP as well.

3) From a townie perspective, I wanted more information on kush, and I wanted to spread out some focus on other people early on to avoid a one sided lynch for the reasons in 2), hence the posts directed at Djo and Z-Boson early on.

Yea, but you didn't say anything, your FoS on kush disappeared. It doens't look to me like a townie move. It looks more like a "empty FOS just to distance yourself from him" then a "I honestly think kush looks suspicious".

4) Then, your points about me being defensive at kush were not defenses of kush’s actions. They were attempts to tell darth to chill out and subdue some of his power trip, which I said in both quotes that you post in that section.

That's fine, I agree he was going overboard. I don't understand, however, your motivation for it. Like I said, you rushed in to critique DP BEFORE you dealt with his arguments against kush. I see you mention this below, so let's see....

5) When you say a townie with a FOS will want to deal with arguments first, that is true. However, kush was afk at the moment and darth was hammering him without kush able to defend himself at a very early point in time in the game. As stated above, look at the situation we are in now if kush flips town.

What? You wouldn't have been attacking kush. You would have been discussing DP's arguments. Why the fuck do you feel the need to help him defend himself? You feeling sorry or something? About someone you theoretically had a suspicion on? You say you weren't defending him, but in the way you've written point no.5), it's almost explicit that you were going for DP because he was hammering a defenseless kush. No, dude, no.

Inconsistency 2

1) If you looked at my posts after my “PM marv for help” post, I believe corrosion instantly assumed that I confirmed him town. That is not true at all. Notice A) Djo is a noob and B) I said COACHES. The word townie was never said in the sentence. You guys are putting words in my mouth. Also, note how in one of Djo’s prior posts, he says he was going to go look at guides. I don’t understand why you guys are so eager to jump on someone trying to help a newbie.

Yet again, townie motivation: If Djo is town, it will greatly help us if he gets help. Even if he isn't, it will raise the quality of this NEWBIE game and help us all improve if he gets help.

EXCEPT THAT YOU HAD A FOS ON HIM!!!! Do you know what it means to be suspicious of someone? You don't follow up a case you've made against someone with: "look for coaches", they help town a lot!! You didn't say explicitly that you thought him town, but you absolutely ignore your previous post on him only to never mention it again. This reeks of an empty case, you know, the ones that mafia are forced to make.

Ending

1) I want to quote something from Bosons post. “Note that I no longer think that his defense of SDM is scummy. I've gone over that a few times and I admit that it can also come from a townie perspective.” By his logic, that does not factor into my case. Also, how do the other two reasons in your post not have a townie perspective/motivation?

They don't. Town want to find scum, and when townies send out FoS's, they really mean it. They don't insta-drop them like you did. It's not scum-motivation, it's scum-slip.

2) The list of 1,2,3 Boson made at the bottom. If I read the post correctly, the only other argument is that my cases against Djo and Z-Bo early one were a "scum recipe". To that, I say duh. Semi-active lurker is a place where mafia can hide to look like they are contributing without actually doing so. I noticed this last game with JacobStrangeLove. I also read some guides that state that. Why wouldn't I call you out early when there's not much to go on?

My case isn't based on you calling me out. I just found it mention-worthy to say that your cases are really really similar (i.e fabricated). Even the wording at the end is the same. It doesn't strike me as legit cases.

Now for z-bos next post right after the post in which he attacked me (5 min after to be exact):

+ Show Spoiler +

I would like to know how I changed my mind twice on scumhunting. Just because someone looks scummy, we don’t need to bash their heads in with the same evidence over and over and over again. In kush’s case, Darth had gone overboard and was sufficiently bashing in kush’s head by himself. What’s the point in me picking up a club and going after him when he was afk?

What's the point in defending him if you find him scummy?

In Djo’s case, I called him out for the quality of his posting. He is a newbie. I decided it was best to not attack him and let him actually get into the game. As I said, I don’t read too much into early posts.

Yep. From suspicious semi-lurker one-line sheep to "townie who should ask coach for help" without any clarifications, without anything. k.

Also, the reason why I “changed my mind” is that Z-boson was becoming a scum read to me. His OMGUS FOS set off alarms in my head. His posts since then are picking out only the mafia motivations or stating the townie motivations and instantly discarding them. It is hard to split my focus on 3 people at a time, so I’d rather worry about Z-Bo and Kush than chase a newbie around.

Are you seriously that dense and think that my fos on you was OMGUS, after all I've written? What the fuck do you mean "only mafia motivations"? You are doing things that I find much more likely coming from a mafia then from a townie, period. This is the most ridiculous paragraph you've yet written.

Alright on to another post

+ Show Spoiler +
Yet again, he doesn’t like the case against kush, yet one of the main parts of his scumread on me was that I defended kush.
+ Show Spoiler +'

This post…..Not only is it an association case, it’s an association case BASED ON MOD WARNINGS and assuming a mod warning off one random post of kush’s, especially when that post references the scum team that I was on with kush in the last game…

Boson is going out of his way to pin me as scum, especially before kush even flips….I don’t get this.

Next post,

+ Show Spoiler +

So he says two things here.

1) That the post he quoted “added” to his scumread. Then he makes NO MENTION of why it does.

Read as: in addition to my scumread, there is this. Not "this adds to my scumread".

2) He specifically states that he is going for me no matter the outcome. Why has he already done this without seeing the flip? Seems like he knows kush’s alignment and doesn’t have to consider what is going on here today…

I don't know kushs alignment. I would rather lynch you because I find my arguments against you much more substantial. Hard to push a lynch on you though, when he refuses to act townie and basically begs himself to be lynched. I didn't think him, and still don't, more scummy than you, but he has put himself in a position where it's impossible for me to push a lynch on you.

Next post



I don’t understand why Boson is lobbying his case against me still. It is a weak case based on mafia assumptions only. I hate this kind of play. If your case is good, people will believe it and vote for it. He is trying so hard to have his notions confirmed.

You think it's a weak case. I don't. And that's exactly what I'm trying to do, get people to agree with it. Not everyone have the same opinions on what constitutes a "good" and a "bad" case.
And what exactly do you hate about this kind of play? Making a case and try to push it? Of course you hate it. You are scum.

Final part of this (thank god)


Everyone who’s experience knows association cases are dumb without a flip unless it’s late game. You are making an early game association case and you make a huge post about it. How is that not an argument? Now you have everyone saying “debears is likely scum”.

It's a theory that makes a lot of sense. I was asked not to discuss hypothetical mod actions in-thread, and so I can't feasibly use this as an argument. If kush flips red, you will have the entirety of that post against you, in addition to my case on you. If he flips green, you'll have just my case, which is strong by itself, imo. A case in which you've done a very poor job defending yourself against it.

FOS Z-Boson

If kush did not implode this game, I would be voting for Z-Boson right now.

So you agree that kush must die now, because he imploded, and would rather vote me. That's exactly the same thing that happened to me. Except that I tried to push a vote on you before he imploded, and you did not on me. Because you were scared that it would seem like you know his alignment, as you've stated in this very post. Because you are scum.

On September 29 2012 15:21 debears wrote:
@djo

What parts of his case specifically do you believe?

His main case against me is contradiction. Look at my case against thrawn in the last game. What was the main point of that argument? Inconsistency. Its an easy point for scum to point out.

There are two possibilities for kushvin my eyes
1) a mafiab tryingbto pity his way out off a lynch
2) a townie acting likeva total noob with accusations against him.

Which has less assumptions? Number 1.

My problen with the scum by associstion is the case that i was defendung kush earky on. That us false i was trying ti communicate ti darth that his reasoning wad based off such a strong s assumption early in the game. In fact, I'd say that z-bosons case against me is the same. He looks at the mafia side only, which to me is a indicator of mafia. I can't make a case dur to drinking and being on my phone.

My read in you is that you are sheeping onto cases. I don't like it because i did the same.

Why do you think i would refer you to a coach? What are the townie and mafia motivations behind it.

@z-boson

The same question stated the line above refers to you

On September 30 2012 04:58 debears wrote:
@zbo

I'm gonna try to do this from my phone.



When did i have a FOS against djo? You put this under the section against djo.

I misspoke. Not a FOS, but a case against him.

Another thing i want to address is your assumption that early d1 posts and cases carry a lot of weight. They don't.my cases against you and djo were based on the suspiciousness of your posts. They weren't full on you're scum in depth cases. Besides, people change their minds a bit on d1.

It's how they change their minds that concern me. There is nothing between your two posts in the thread that can even begin to ward off suspicion

The next thing i want to address is your assumption on the weight and meaning of a fos. To me, a fos is a heads up that Im suspicious of you qnd ill be watching. It doesnt necessarily mean I'm gonna make a huge case on you.

Finally, i want to address your assumptions of what townies do d1. As a townie, i have no idea who is what. Its confusing as hell. Why wouldnt i change my mind and explore more than kush d1. There are more than 1 scum.

You definitely can explore more than one person. But I'm tired of repeating myself of why I find you scummy, I believe I've made that clear

How am i supposed to know whether darth himself is scum trying to push an easy target (i will expand more on this tonight when i am at my computer) or whether he is a townie truly overconfident in his belief about kush being scum. A good case doesnt necessarily mean someone is town. Look at my case against thrawn last game.

Finally, why does everyone seem so damn confident in their reads? Especially on day 1?

On September 29 2012 13:24 DarthPunk wrote:


Nice pick up. I already posted about this, But I assume you just picked it up as you were going through the thread. I was surprised no one else seemed to catch on to this.

I would like some further elaboration on your kush vote as you have black flipped somewhat from your earlier position.