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On August 25 2012 04:41 Lvdr wrote:
@shady My initial 'town call' on shady was mostly in order to stimulate discussion. Yes, he did match his meta for the most part, but it was extremely early to decide that someone was already town. At this point I am pretty suspicious that he decided kush's JK claim is scummy enough to insta-vote him. Seems like textbook play from a mafia jumping on the mistakes of a newbie.
please read.
Wait a second. You do a town call on me, knowing full well it's early for a town call, just so you can trap people later, then when no one falls for your trap you turn around and FoS me? This makes a lot of sense. Not.
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On August 25 2012 04:42 Lvdr wrote:
Remember FOS is a tool in order to stimulate discussion. My earlier FOS were largely manufactured because of lack of evidence. Right now our focus needs to be widespread so that we dont have a situation where, for example kush gets tunneled hard and we have no evidence on anyone else.
This is suspicious to me. We certainly shouldn't focus on one person (kush) if he's not scummy, but we shouldn't be FoS'ing everyone. At this point we actually want to be narrowing down our discussions so that we're not pressed a few hours before vote time. Casting a wide net of suspicion is what mafia want, so they don't have to give strong reads on anyone.
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On August 25 2012 02:42 Shady Sands wrote:
I don't believe the JK claim. That's why I voted Kush. If you don't believe the claim, then you should pretty much auto-vote him. But that doesn't mean I think there's more to talk about with Kush than there is with Lvdr. Does that make sense?
So basically you started accusing lvdr after he began to accuse you. I see this as you just trying to save yourself and again turn the focus on others.
Tell me who to save and I will do it to prove that I am jk.
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@mkfuba I have made 3 FOS so far. 2 for clearly stated reasons on you and kush. 1 for the case that I just made on shady. I am not mindlessly splurging them around, rather I am using them intentionally and with my reasoning up front.
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@kush wait until the night post to discuss that stuff.
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On August 25 2012 04:46 mkfuba07 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 04:42 Lvdr wrote:
Remember FOS is a tool in order to stimulate discussion. My earlier FOS were largely manufactured because of lack of evidence. Right now our focus needs to be widespread so that we dont have a situation where, for example kush gets tunneled hard and we have no evidence on anyone else. This is suspicious to me. We certainly shouldn't focus on one person (kush) if he's not scummy, but we shouldn't be FoS'ing everyone. At this point we actually want to be narrowing down our discussions so that we're not pressed a few hours before vote time. Casting a wide net of suspicion is what mafia want, so they don't have to give strong reads on anyone.
Yes, it's bad to suspect too many people just lightly.
Lvdr's suggestion to have a "widespread focus" (which doesn't exist, you either focus, a.k.a. tunnel OR your suspicions are widespread) seems a bit fishy to me.
It's all good and well to keep an open mind to changes in suspicions, and change targets sometimes.
But trying to scumhunt in a "widespread" way looks VERY suspicious to me. In my (albait limited) experience, FoS'ing and lightly suspecting a bunch of people at once is what SCUM wants to do to appear like they are scumhunting. + Show Spoiler +Case in point, Promethelax' play in XXIII. He did just that.
For trying to push this kind of scumhunting, my first FoS of the game goes to Lvdr:
##FoS: Lvdr
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On August 25 2012 04:43 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 04:41 Lvdr wrote:
@shady My initial 'town call' on shady was mostly in order to stimulate discussion. Yes, he did match his meta for the most part, but it was extremely early to decide that someone was already town. At this point I am pretty suspicious that he decided kush's JK claim is scummy enough to insta-vote him. Seems like textbook play from a mafia jumping on the mistakes of a newbie.
please read. Wait a second. You do a town call on me, knowing full well it's early for a town call, just so you can trap people later, then when no one falls for your trap you turn around and FoS me? This makes a lot of sense. Not.
I did an early town call to gauge reactions. At that point there was NO content AT ALL. Somebody has to offer something. Now that there has been actual posting, I find your attacks on Kush suspicious. Therefore, I FOS you.
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@Dandel I am not just splurging suspicion all over, I put a FOS on kush for bad play, and a FOS of mkfuba for fluff/lack of content. The goal there is to improve play, not that I have found scum 2 hours into the game. My first real scum read is shady as i outlined in my case.
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On August 25 2012 04:50 kushm4sta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 02:42 Shady Sands wrote:
I don't believe the JK claim. That's why I voted Kush. If you don't believe the claim, then you should pretty much auto-vote him. But that doesn't mean I think there's more to talk about with Kush than there is with Lvdr. Does that make sense? So basically you started accusing lvdr after he began to accuse you. I see this as you just trying to save yourself and again turn the focus on others. Tell me who to save and I will do it to prove that I am jk.
Flaw in your logic there.... if we tell you who to save, we have no way of actually knowing that you did it. There's nothing to be proven by stating that you are going to save someone when we have no idea what the mafia's night actions are.
Also, does this "So basically you started accusing lvdr after he began to accuse you. I see this as you just trying to save yourself and again turn the focus on others" mean you think that shady is scum?
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On August 25 2012 04:50 kushm4sta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 02:42 Shady Sands wrote:
I don't believe the JK claim. That's why I voted Kush. If you don't believe the claim, then you should pretty much auto-vote him. But that doesn't mean I think there's more to talk about with Kush than there is with Lvdr. Does that make sense? So basically you started accusing lvdr after he began to accuse you. I see this as you just trying to save yourself and again turn the focus on others. Tell me who to save and I will do it to prove that I am jk.
Pick the person yourself and claim who it is ~5 minutes before deadline. (so scum don't have time to react)
That person can just tell us if he was jailed afterwards.
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On August 25 2012 05:05 Dandel Ion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 04:50 kushm4sta wrote:On August 25 2012 02:42 Shady Sands wrote:
I don't believe the JK claim. That's why I voted Kush. If you don't believe the claim, then you should pretty much auto-vote him. But that doesn't mean I think there's more to talk about with Kush than there is with Lvdr. Does that make sense? So basically you started accusing lvdr after he began to accuse you. I see this as you just trying to save yourself and again turn the focus on others. Tell me who to save and I will do it to prove that I am jk. Pick the person yourself and claim who it is ~5 minutes before deadline. (so scum don't have time to react) That person can just tell us if he was jailed afterwards.
EBWOP: That's what I'd do at least.
Well, not exactly, I wouldn't claim JK in the first 24 hours at all, but you know what I mean.
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On August 25 2012 04:50 kushm4sta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 02:42 Shady Sands wrote:
I don't believe the JK claim. That's why I voted Kush. If you don't believe the claim, then you should pretty much auto-vote him. But that doesn't mean I think there's more to talk about with Kush than there is with Lvdr. Does that make sense? So basically you started accusing lvdr after he began to accuse you. I see this as you just trying to save yourself and again turn the focus on others. Tell me who to save and I will do it to prove that I am jk.
Actually, my FoS on Lvdr came hours before Lvdr launched his FoS on me. By your logic, Lvdr should be the one guilty of turning the focus to others.
And your jk save point is moot if scum don't even hit the person you profess to save. And that's assuming you are JK, which at this point I don't think so.
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Weetee, Spaghetticus, Alsn--what are your reads?
Brief recap for you guys if you're just coming into the thread/just waking up:
1) Kush roleclaimed jailkeeper
2) Dandel disbelieved JK roleclaim and accused Kush
3) I didn't believe the roleclaim and voted Kush; also built case/FoS'd Lvdr
4) Lvdr drew a null read on Kush and FoS'd me for voting Kush
5) Mkfuba followed up on Lvdr and said null tell on Kush
6) Dandel said null tell on Kush
7) Thrawn followed up on Lvdr and said null tell on Kush
8) Dandel followed up on Lvdr and FoS'd him
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Just woke up a little earlier, will be posting something within an hour or so.
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@Shady Sands maybe you can explain this to me. If you are a townsperson why would you vote for me? Won't it become clear if I'm really the JK or mafia after the first night? I will say I'm going to roleblock someone then I'm going to do it. Why would the real JK, if it weren't me, roleblock the same person I say I'm going to roleblock? They would roleblock someone else to show the town my guilt.
If you are mafia why would you vote for me? Now this is clear. It's so you don't have to kill me during the night (because you know I'm JK). You get the town to lynch me so you can kill a better player in the nighttime. That is your motivation for voting for me.
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So, right now I get the feeling that the feud between Shady and Lvdr is what is most likely to yield fruitful results, seeing as kush has been told several times over about what the situation is and what he should be doing.
With that in mind, I feel I must take Lvdr's side in this. I had had a long running suspicion against Lvdr since before I went to bed and was planning on making a case against him when I woke up, this was mostly because of his general lack of content in his posts. Upon closer inspection of his filter however, while he has a lot of very short posts, to me they all seem to lead in the proper direction, often mirroring my own thoughts on the matter.
Not so with Shady, the last thing he wrote of substance before I went to bed was the following:+ Show Spoiler +On August 24 2012 15:43 Shady Sands wrote:Oh :S my bad then. I'm going to say we should just do one of two things:
1) We collectively decide he's town and ignore him as a major target for the remainder of D1, move the discussion onto other folks
2) We lynch him first and get him out of the way
Let's figure this out fast, before we use up the rest of D1 just talking about him.
At first, I thought this was a sound argument, but upon closer inspection I get the feeling that he just wanted to be able to later on get a wagon going against kush and I'll explain why.
The first option of ignoring him completely just seems too extreme. Why is this the only other option? This sounds to me as if he is trying to force everyone to conclude that only the second option is worthwhile. Also, this statement is similar to other statements made by myself and others(Shady included) earlier in the thread that we should focus on other people instead of tunneling kush, but with a subtle difference. It suggests to ignore him completely! Then he tries to stress us into making a decision fast. The argument can be made for stressing the point being a town motivated idea to spur on conversation and getting out hopeful scumslips, but he completely abandons the idea later when it does not take hold.
Later on he accuses Lvdr and puts a FoS on him. That was something that I was in full agreement with before I went to bed but as the thread continued on, I no longer agree. Lvdr having a town agenda makes sense to me from the posts he has made. Letting up on kush when we all agree that it's not leading anywhere could be seen as a scum move due to everyone already having come to the same conclusion, but on the other hand doubling down on kush makes very little sense to me.
The issue of the roleclaim is something I want kush to defend himself against, but until such a thing happens and we get closer to having to come to a consensus(I'll be awake from now until lynch time), I don't think kush is someone we should be focusing too much on. He absolutely must start partaking in dicussion without knee-jerk responses though!
Because of this, I'm changing my read on kushm4sta to a null read, while declaring a:
FoS Shady Sands
This is all with the caveat that I cannot deny Shady's last point about wanting input from Weetee, myself and Spaghetticus, and I'm not entirely happy with kush's, mkfuba's and Dandel Ion's contributions so far either.
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EBWOP: Just wanted to clarify a statement.
Later on he accuses Lvdr and puts a FoS on him. That was something that I was in full agreement with before I went to bed but as the thread continued on, I no longer agree. Lvdr having a town agenda makes sense to me from the posts he has made. Letting up on kush when we all agree that it's not leading anywhere could be seen as a scum move due to everyone already having come to the same conclusion, but on the other hand Shady doubling down on kush makes much less sense to me.
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On August 25 2012 08:28 kushm4sta wrote:
@Shady Sands maybe you can explain this to me. If you are a townsperson why would you vote for me? Won't it become clear if I'm really the JK or mafia after the first night? I will say I'm going to roleblock someone then I'm going to do it. Why would the real JK, if it weren't me, roleblock the same person I say I'm going to roleblock? They would roleblock someone else to show the town my guilt.
If you are mafia why would you vote for me? Now this is clear. It's so you don't have to kill me during the night (because you know I'm JK). You get the town to lynch me so you can kill a better player in the nighttime. That is your motivation for voting for me. I would like to point out that this kind of reasoning will not help your case. While I find Shady's reasons for voting you suspicious, you can argue however much you want about your ability to roleblock during the night. At this point noone but scum can believe anything you say about your supposed JK role, which leads all argumentation about it to be useless.
You should immediately abandon using it as a way to prove your innocence and take everyone's advice that we have given you several times throughout the thread, try to prove your innocence through discussion that helps town. This because even if it turns out you really are a JK, noone disputing that fact can really be held accountable for calling you out on it.
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@Lvdr:
@Shady:
It really seems to me like you are carrying over an existing argument/exchange from another ongoing mafia game.
I guess it's pretty hard to do (and coincidentially the reason I won't sign up for multiple games, ever), but please try to seperate this game from the other one.
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On August 25 2012 09:07 Dandel Ion wrote:
@Lvdr:
@Shady:
It really seems to me like you are carrying over an existing argument/exchange from another ongoing mafia game.
I guess it's pretty hard to do (and coincidentially the reason I won't sign up for multiple games, ever), but please try to seperate this game from the other one. Ok, now this make me all confused... I guess it doesn't invalidate my concerns about Shady, but one the reasons I initially suspected him was because I didn't consider Lvdr scummy enough but he did.
That being said, I think I would like to let my current argumentation stand until we get some clarification from either of them.
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EPT
