Newbie Mini Mafia XXIV - Page 48

On August 24 2012 07:52 Z-BosoN wrote:
Like I said, if you dismiss my post as WIFOM, then you must dismiss the argument that "A scum boson would definitely do this and want us to think this" as WIFOM as well. Otherwise it becomes just bias, you are seeing just what you want to see.

On August 24 2012 08:03 Solarsail wrote:


You're correct, that would be biased deduction. But that's not what happened. The arguments of the two posts against you have been:

Goodkarma: "Z-Boson's scummy behavior is related to the last minute vote switch request"

Obvious: "The guy who has been laying into YH the entire game has a change of heart just before the deadline."

Those aren't "A scum Boson would be doing X". Those are, "Boson's behaviour here and here is scummy". Please give town motivations for the listed behaviour.

On August 24 2012 08:03 Z-BosoN wrote:
@DarthPunk

So, according to you, everyone should mindlessly base themselves on goodkarma? I don't think that's good for the town. What's good for the town is making discussions and reaching thought-out conclusions. At the end, if no compromise is made, THEN we make decisions based on gk. Am I wrong here?

On August 24 2012 08:03 Solarsail wrote:


You're correct, that would be biased deduction. But that's not what happened. The arguments of the two posts against you have been:

Goodkarma: "Z-Boson's scummy behavior is related to the last minute vote switch request"

Obvious: "The guy who has been laying into YH the entire game has a change of heart just before the deadline."

Those aren't "A scum Boson would be doing X". Those are, "Boson's behaviour here and here is scummy". Please give town motivations for the listed behaviour.

Please Follow GK town!

I will, nonetheless, answer you. "Boson's behaviour here and here is scummy". Is this not saying "A scum boson would likely do this?" I don't see the difference. I already gave you my town motivations. You just choose not to see it.

On August 24 2012 08:18 Z-BosoN wrote:
You didn't use the word mindlessly, but one can interpret this from:



The town purpose? Stimulate discussion. Force people to make their own reads.
A blind band wagon will ultimately succeed based only on the choice of the leader's target...
The town purpose is that the eggs choose what basket they should jump into, and not have one egg choose it for them. That way it is easier to prove that I'm innocent if I'm innocent, and harder to prove that if I'm scum.

IF I DIE. Please follow GK town!

On August 24 2012 08:19 Z-BosoN wrote:
@Darthpunk

Stop saying "this is suspicious", and say why you think it is.
Explain to me the difference. Again,

On August 24 2012 07:42 Z-BosoN wrote:
You say you don't even need to explain why it makes me look suspicious. I say you do.

Okay, here's why last minute vote switching is heavily scum motivated. As scum if you drive a mislynch you win. If Solar's town, scum would love to get the vote switched to him. And your motive for last minute switching is pretty poor. You describe YourHarry as a "strong scum read," yet you feel compelled to last minute switch your vote... Really? I have to explain this to you???

And if you can get just enough votes off YourHarry, with even one town on Solar you could have secured a lynch because of plurality rules. Taking advantage of a potentially afk townie and last minute switching, even would have been an option. There are so many ways scum could benefit from a last minute switch, and so few that town could (assuming you actually meant it when you said YourHarry was scum...) that this is a pretty ridiculous question.

Ok, so it seems the MAIN thing that makes me scummy is my pressure to vote switch at the end.

It's far from the main thing. There are several things I discuss in my case, including the timing of your FOS on me day 3 and YourHarry's FOS that makes most sense as a way to distance himself from you...

Let me get this straight.
At least one mafia member bussed YH. That much is for certain. You think that I, fearing for my partner, would decide to wait until the last minute to unvote him and go for Solar. WHY IN THE WORLD did I not go for solar as soon as it was tied up? Why in the world did I wait for it to be 5 votes to 1 on Solar for me to start acting? Because going for Solar that early on would make me look suspicious? As if I wouldn't think that sticking my neck out to attempt a very risky Solar lynch 1 hour and a half before nightfall is not?

Okay so briefly let's get the timeline straight: 1) I vote YourHarry, 2) You FOS me, 3) Stutters votes YourHarry, 4) you vote YourHarry... Scum could and honestly probably should have bused the exact way that you did. With the YourHarry lynch gathering momentum it was better for scum to jump on it early than to just take it easy and let it happen. You would have looked even more suspicious getting on the bandwaggon late.

You tried defending YourHarry at first, of course, by trying to undermine my leadership position by putting suspicion on me with an FOS. But when that wouldn't work, you HAD to get behind YourHarry as damage control. ALL THE PIECES FIT...

And as for the Solar wagon, if Solar had gained momentum and you were around I'm certain you would have used that as a reason to jump on it. But the fact of the matter was there was me, and there was DarthPunk as pretty established town. If you went against either of us, you would have been under heavy suspicion, so when three vote momentum was gained on SolarSail and DarthPunk switched sides before you got back, you missed your "window of opportunity."

Oh, and even better, you think that my plan, as scum, was to attack uncompromisingly my erratic and unpredictable partner all game long, bother making long and quoty posts on him, only to abruptly change my mind after I realize that all my work actually was gonna get him killed?

You sure do like to make a point of this don't you? Haven't you mentioned this before in passing, without any real reason?

On August 23 2012 07:58 Z-BosoN wrote:
Well, let's see who is present. All of me, Obvious, you and Darthpunk are present. All of us still have one hour to switch. Are we sure we want to go through with YH? Emotions aside (I've been ranting against him and his posting all game, basically), the more I think about it, the more doubt I have. Especially considering how wishy-washy thrawn also was, and how much circumstantial evidence made him look guilty.

It's as though you need us to know this... Scum can easily coordinate attacks on each other. In fact that you were so into attacking YourHarry without ever doing anything about it (like voting for him...) makes you look even more suspicious...

This makes 0 sense to me. If I were scum and this was my plan, I would CERTAINLY join the Solar train as soon as it came out. It wouldn't give me 1/20th of the suspicion that my sticking my head out did (which, according to your theory, is generally what scums love to do), and would have a MUCH higher chance of working.

Okay, already explained...

But instead, you are naive and think that I was suddenly terrified of losing my partner in a already MYLO situation.
Guys, don't be naive, this does not make the slightest of sense. The real scum is one who quietly voted for YourHarry without drawing up suspicion. Because guess what? One misslynch and the game still ends, we are not out of MYLO yet.

Doing what I did, as scum, would seem like the stupidest shit anyone could do, it is completely unnecessary for a victory as scum right now. Do you HONESTLY think that is my brilliant plan?

It's believable. Scum was close to the finish line. I find it completely plausible that scum would try to sway a mislynch on SolarSail to clinch the victory.

If you said yes, then wow, I don't know what to say, you must be very biased. If you said "that's what he wants us to think", then your MAIN argument against lynching someone who has been heavy on the analysis and reads on players all game long is purely WIFOM.

Also, your strategy for fishing evidence that is not there is pretty horrible.
"Z-BosoN, please make your reads!"
THen you skim it, nitpick one meaningless quote I didn't give the slightest shit to when I was writing, because that was not even close to the main point I was making, AND that was explained later, and throw the rest of it down the toilet.

How bout you go back and read my post, unbiased, pretending it was one of your town reads that made it, and tell me why you think solar is town after a HUGE STASH of HARD EVIDENCE has been thrown in your way.

In the case of Solar: Being a lurking, sheeping player (though definitely anti-town) is hardly a HUGE STASH of evidence, and could mean a townie or scum. You, on the other hand, have acted in such a way that would support a scum agenda...

Also, please answer as logically and as precise as you can. I know your impulse is to go through this post and try to find something that "inequivocally" proves me scum and ignore the rest, but read it seriously and explain to me your EXACT reasoning as to why I'm most definitely scum. Point by point.

I wasn't fishing for evidence. I legitimately wanted your reads. It was your chance to establish yourself as town... The quote I put in of yours regarding Golbat was cut out of your entire post, and so could be considered out of context. However, it remains that "Golbat is town because SolarSail is scum" is pretty weak reasoning. And that you also tried to be wishy-washy and go back on this instead of up-front explaining how you had a "town read" is pretty scummy behavior. It serves an agenda, as Golbat is even more guilty than SolarSail of lurking. So making him look less suspicious would serve the agenda of keeping him alive enough for a SolarSail lynch, which, if I am to trust my reads, would in fact be a mislynch and the end of the game.

Well, most certainly one of us is scum, but as far as I know, we agreed to follow suit.
I suggest we all unvote, discuss, and vote again, as we still have 40 minutes. If the scums don't follow suit and don't unvote, it will be clear who they are, they would certainly not risk it.

I don't necessarily agree with this choice. YourHarry has a ton of shit, but he has a lot of pro-town posts. I read Obvious' case and DarthPunk's case on him, and I have to agree, he certainly looks scummy as hell. His play is even more ridiculous than YH.

Then I read my case on YourHarry, and your case again. What obvious said made me retrospect, because the type of evidence YH is getting lynched for is almost identical the type of evidence that thrawn was, happenstance arguments.

YES WE DO HAVE TIME.

I propose this, all of us here now unvote, and if, at 8:50, not all of us are unvoted, we go ahead and vote for YH. By 8:55 all our votes are made, to the same person discussed.

Essentially it is up to you, GK, because without you we won't be able to switch votes, and I strongly feel taht we should. Think about what has been said, and think quickly. Is YH the right choice??

##Unvote

errr. this seemed to easy in retrospect. I expect a mislynch. anyway GG>

too late now. Should have been here earlier. If you are town, then Sorry I guess.

On August 24 2012 08:31 DarthPunk wrote:

One question would ask SOLAR?

You tried to alter the vote at the last minute whilst you were the other leading candidate. Who would you have voted for and why? if we had decided to not vote for YH.

solarsail wrote:



You do if you all verbally agree that you'd do it at 10 minutes to, and anyone that didn't would be immediately voted at 5 minutes to. IRC mafia decisions can be done in much less time with everyone there.

On August 24 2012 08:39 goodkarma wrote:
I've addressed Z-Boson's case as best I can in the short time remaining. I currently still firmly believe the evidence is there that Z-Boson is scum. My comments are in red.



And let me upfront explain this too, as I'm sure it will at some point be brought up, regarding YourHarry's Golbat vote day 3:

YourHarry softdefended Golbat and only made his vote after I pressured him. What's more, he called it a "pressure vote," meaning he had little conviction behind it... Look at the interactions between YourHarry and Golbat, as well as how he behaves when actually called out for defending Golbat day 3, and I'm confident you'll agree Golbat's likely the second scum. Unfortunately, due to time constraints that's all the detail I can go into right now, but the evidence is there if you look for it.