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On August 15 2012 10:36 Solarsail wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 10:34 Shady Sands wrote:On August 15 2012 10:29 Solarsail wrote:On August 15 2012 10:23 Shady Sands wrote:On August 15 2012 10:20 Solarsail wrote:On August 15 2012 10:15 Shady Sands wrote:On August 15 2012 10:10 Solarsail wrote:On August 15 2012 10:01 Shady Sands wrote:Solarsail, why post this? Imagine how scared of posting you would be if you'd signed up for your first game and rolled Mafia. Your posts would be short, infrequent, and not hold any information that disagrees with the general direction so as not to stand out. Because I've played one game of Mafia in my life, it was on another forum and that happened. But I forgot that "Newbie" in the title means that everyone is a fucking veteran and doesn't need to be told anything. I have no idea what a good post is, please enlighten me on how I can make completely flawless first posts with zero information. Stutters. Stutters said something perfectly townish which you tried to soft twist into scummy play. On August 15 2012 09:13 Stutters695 wrote:
I'm not going to quote the entire post, but I'd strongly recommend the town to read Hapahauli's post following XXIII(http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=355874¤tpage=58#1160). Was watching that game while I was waiting for this to start and based off of his scumhunting track record it contains some good advice. Since it's probable we will mislynch we need to get as much out of Day 1 as possible. Then you say: Imagine how scared of posting you would be if you'd signed up for your first game and rolled Mafia. Your posts would be short, infrequent, and not hold any information that disagrees with the general direction so as not to stand out. You're basically accusing stutters without accusing him directly. Why? Lol you think in my first serious attempt at a game I'd start implying stuff with multiple layers of meaning? I wanted to post something day one that would at least show I had read the TL guides and was making an effort to participate. Feel free to read into it like I'm a pro though. Go on.Everyone IS DOING THE SAME THING today, which is trying NOT TO DIE AT THE FIRST MENTION OF AN INCONSISTENCY. If you don't stop I will vote you. Only scum focus on trying to survive. Town focuses on scumhunting. Why would you devote your first post to trying to show participation? Wow. Guess I'm scum then. ##Vote: Shady Sands Seriously this is not worth your amazing detective skills, case solved already, go look at someone else. Or just realise that I'm trying and shut up. LOL why are you voting me? To get you to stop quoting me. It's NOT HELPING ANYONE. Go post about someone else.
How is quoting you not helping anyone? Why should I post about someone else? And how does your vote get me to stop quoting you?
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On August 15 2012 11:33 goodkarma wrote:Regarding lynch all lurkers: Yeah. Got me last game as scum with that but tbh I would have been just about as active day one as town. I still don't really have day one figured out, so don't expect me to go into hyperactive mode for day one this game. In the context of last game, it was used as a last resort which imho is the only time it should be considered. Active discussion of suspects and the cases created day one are far more valuable than trying for a "lucky lynch." And regarding the vote for Shady Sands: If you're going to make a vote try to make at least a few "case points" behind it. Otherwise we're going to have a pretty ridiculous situation where everyone finger points each other over pretty much nothing. Look at Mordanis's (who was town) play in NMM XXII. He started the game with a WIFOM case, and lo and behold was actively accused all game. That suspicion could have been better spent elsewhere, so make your cases thorough before voting please. Lastly: Now would be a great time to discuss policy. The ever-popular "lurker-lynch" policy is a great point of discussion. Also, if there's an experience that comes to mind that you feel we could benefit from via a policy feel free to bring it up  .
GK, could you put up filters from XXIII and XXII?
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Heading out for the night.
Great job keeping up the pressure on Solarsail.
+ Show Spoiler [Thrawn] +On August 15 2012 11:18 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 10:35 Shady Sands wrote:On August 15 2012 10:32 thrawn2112 wrote:
Most of Solarsail's posts so far have contained quite a bit of emotion which has made his points less articulate than they otherwise would have been. Solarsail, if you are in fact town then I'm sure all the other townies would greatly appreciate it if you weren't so quick to use profanities and typing in all caps, it distracts from whatever arguments are being made. What's even more interesting that Solarsail didn't even try to defend himself from this accusation: Only scum focus on trying to survive. Town focuses on scumhunting. Why would you devote your first post to trying to show participation? Instead, he answered with sarcasm and an OMGUS vote. Most of the discussion right now is about solarsail. I don't think there's anything wrong with this because so far his posts haven't seemed very useful but we have still yet to hear from several players. He could easily be town and just reacting to everyone immediately jumping on his case as soon as the game starts. In that case it would be easy for the mafia players to roll in later and pile more suspicion on solar and therefore away from themselves. As far as I could see most of the drama was based on your post asking why he is devoting his first post to appearing as town rather than use it to scumhunt. I think it's worthwhile pointing out that at the time of his original posting there were only a few D1 posts so far and not much to scumhunt on. I think right now we are still in a waiting game, people that haven't spoken up yet need to!
In addition to questioning why Solarsail is devoting his first post to appearing as town, we should also be asking why he made this comment:
Imagine how scared of posting you would be if you'd signed up for your first game and rolled Mafia. Your posts would be short, infrequent, and not hold any information that disagrees with the general direction so as not to stand out.
Right after Stutters made the short comment about Hapa's XXIII postscript to open the game.
+ Show Spoiler [mkfuba] +On August 15 2012 11:19 mkfuba07 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 11:08 Solarsail wrote:On August 15 2012 11:01 mkfuba07 wrote:On August 15 2012 10:55 Solarsail wrote:On August 15 2012 10:47 thrawn2112 wrote:On August 15 2012 10:37 Shady Sands wrote:On August 15 2012 10:32 thrawn2112 wrote:
Most of Solarsail's posts so far have contained quite a bit of emotion which has made his points less articulate than they otherwise would have been. Solarsail, if you are in fact town then I'm sure all the other townies would greatly appreciate it if you weren't so quick to use profanities and typing in all caps, it distracts from whatever arguments are being made. Quick question: If you've never played with Solarsail before, how would you know whether his points are less or more articulate than they could be? Seconding your point on the profanities though. I wouldn't know if they are more or less articulate than however he may have been in previous games, but for this purpose of this game it's making his posts a little unclear. Unclear could just mean unclear OR mafia, but the end result is that I pay more attention to his posts. O WOW IM BEING PAID ATTENTION TO ITS ALL I DREAMED OF Let's go with the meta-meta-analysis of tiny comments without adding anything new, that's sure to help. When Shady Sands stops the 'thing' he has going I'll vote for who you're "paying attention to" because that's an objective measure appreciated by town players everywhere. Alright, I feel like Shady was overreacting too, but there needs to be a starting point for discussion. Your reactions have been completely emotionally based and by virtue of not being pro-town, appear scummy by default. Might his posts have been a bit contrived? Yes. From what I can see, he's scumhunting no matter what. Whether he actually believes that your first few posts were scummy, your follow-up posts aren't helping town in any way. You say you'll vote for someone when someone else makes a case for them based on reasoning, so start trying to do that instead of screaming at Shady. > Drops in from ceiling > Why, yes, I can see some of argument A but I can also see some of argument B, aren't I so fair and reasonable good sirs > Let me give advice to you, for I am a kind and generous spirit ................ ...... .. . . . Dude, you're not helping your case. I didn't give anything that Shady had said any weight until you followed up his questions with overly emotional fluff and OMGUS. Your responses don't answer the questions he's raised, and provide nothing in the way of new content. While my read on you still says panicked townie, you have to cool off. Either respond to his questions seriously or make another case, or you're not helping town. Step it up. Playing the sarcastic martyr wins you no points.
Great job keeping the discussion on track. Other than Solarsail, any other reads at the moment?
@ Solarsail
Note that when I began the entire train of questions at Solarsail, I was never directly accusing him of being scum:
On August 15 2012 10:01 Shady Sands wrote:Solarsail, why post this? Show nested quote +Imagine how scared of posting you would be if you'd signed up for your first game and rolled Mafia. Your posts would be short, infrequent, and not hold any information that disagrees with the general direction so as not to stand out.
He immediately responded with hostility:
On August 15 2012 10:10 Solarsail wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 10:01 Shady Sands wrote:Solarsail, why post this? Imagine how scared of posting you would be if you'd signed up for your first game and rolled Mafia. Your posts would be short, infrequent, and not hold any information that disagrees with the general direction so as not to stand out. Because I've played one game of Mafia in my life, it was on another forum and that happened. But I forgot that "Newbie" in the title means that everyone is a fucking veteran and doesn't need to be told anything. I have no idea what a good post is, please enlighten me on how I can make completely flawless first posts with zero information.
This is what I want everyone to focus on. Why would Solarsail do this?
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On August 15 2012 11:43 thrawn2112 wrote:
Shady, can you explain your reasoning for initially jumping all over solar? It could be that you, as mafia, know he is town and are taking advantage of solar's emotional reactions by drawing them out even further and immediately sidetracking everyone onto solar's case.
Still waiting for several people to post up... I'm gonna take a break for an hour or so and I will join back in once more people have posted.
Basically I read this:
Imagine how scared of posting you would be if you'd signed up for your first game and rolled Mafia. Your posts would be short, infrequent, and not hold any information that disagrees with the general direction so as not to stand out.
And it didn't make sense to me. Why would Solar make this post if he's town? It's not pro-town to post on which style a scum might or might be playing. Then I read his post in context of the first post that stutters made, and it seemed like Solar is trying to soft accuse stutters--because stutters post was short, and didn't hold any information that disagrees with the general direction (as telling people to read a guide is about as plain as someone can get.)
The second possibility here, aside from soft-accusing stutters, is that Solar is trying to look participatory. He states this himself, later. Why would a townie try to look participatory from his first post onwards? No one has accused Solar of anything yet, so why the desire to look like he's contributing (as opposed to actually saying something of substance instead of guessing at what the scum must be feeling?)
Both these possibilities lead to a scum Solarsail.
## FoS Solarsail
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On August 15 2012 11:59 YourHarry wrote:
@Z-boson, posting filters is pretty easy. Why not.
@Shady Sands. You are accusing Solarsail of being hostile? You think scums are more likely to respond with hostility?
Thrawn on the other hand is busy posting fluffs and WIFOM statement like "It could be that you, as mafia, know he is town and are taking advantage of solar's emotional reactions by drawing them out even further and immediately sidetracking everyone onto solar's case."
##Vote Thrawn
I agree here. Thrawn's first post on the SK was extremely WIFOM:
+ Show Spoiler [Thrawn on SK] +On August 15 2012 09:55 thrawn2112 wrote:
Does anyone have experience playing in a game where a serial killer was a possible role? If there did end up being a serial killer, how big a role did they play and how high would you rate the importance and achieveability of sniffing them out early? In other words, would it be a worthwhile use of the town's time and investigation to try to figure out who, if anyone, is the serial killer? I can see how it would be very important to find out who is SK early on, but I also can see how it might be way more difficult than figuring out who is mafia, and thus not a good use of time. One distinction between the serial killer and the mafia is that the mafia are in communication and will be working together while the serial killer is separated from both town and mafia. Any player who is suspected to be not of town affiliation could either be mafia or SK, so while in either case they are a good target for lynching, having knowledge of their actual role would be way more valuable than just an uninformed hit on a supposed non-town player.
If there isn't an SK, then this line of discussion is a complete waste of time and we would be doing the mafia's job for them, which is why I asked if anyone has experience in games with an SK so that we all can get a better idea of what the risk/reward anaylsis should be on determining whether or not and when to focus on a potential SK.
Concerning shady sand's post, this is my first game so I have no previous history to reference.
Why is Thrawn so concerned with getting town's attention on thinking about a SK, when SK is actually a bigger threat to scum than it is to town?
His response to my question was yet more WIFOM:
+ Show Spoiler +On August 15 2012 10:11 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 09:59 Shady Sands wrote:On August 15 2012 09:55 thrawn2112 wrote:
Does anyone have experience playing in a game where a serial killer was a possible role? If there did end up being a serial killer, how big a role did they play and how high would you rate the importance and achieveability of sniffing them out early? In other words, would it be a worthwhile use of the town's time and investigation to try to figure out who, if anyone, is the serial killer? I can see how it would be very important to find out who is SK early on, but I also can see how it might be way more difficult than figuring out who is mafia, and thus not a good use of time. One distinction between the serial killer and the mafia is that the mafia are in communication and will be working together while the serial killer is separated from both town and mafia. Any player who is suspected to be not of town affiliation could either be mafia or SK, so while in either case they are a good target for lynching, having knowledge of their actual role would be way more valuable than just an uninformed hit on a supposed non-town player.
If there isn't an SK, then this line of discussion is a complete waste of time and we would be doing the mafia's job for them, which is why I asked if anyone has experience in games with an SK so that we all can get a better idea of what the risk/reward anaylsis should be on determining whether or not and when to focus on a potential SK.
Concerning shady sand's post, this is my first game so I have no previous history to reference. Why are you so worried about the SK? SK is a bigger threat to scum than to town. I am not really worried, but am trying to learn from other people's experiences if there is any reason to worry. I thought I was pretty clear that I was undecided on the importance of SK, and that if SK is unimportant in D1 it's a complete waste of time to worry about it. My current opinion is that it is something to worry about, but not on D1. Therefore I'm not going to continue posting about it until something happens along the lines of way too many unexplained town deaths.
Note the following sentence:
I thought I was pretty clear that I was undecided on the importance of SK, and that if SK is unimportant in D1 it's a complete waste of time to worry about it. My current opinion is that it is something to worry about, but not on D1.
Then he says he won't post about it until it becomes obvious there is an SK. Basically Thrawn is fluffing up his posts here with a mostly useless discussion. I'd like to see Thrawn commit to a case. Until then,
## FoS Thrawn2112
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Alright, heading off for the night. Good luck everyone.
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On August 15 2012 12:09 YourHarry wrote:
Did we just catch 2 scums??
Given that half the town hasn't posted yet, I think we should still be careful to jump into voting for Thrawn or Solar. Once the whole town has gotten a chance to talk and we have a full day's worth of posts to go off of, then I think we can say for sure who is scum and who isn't.
But right now, Thrawn and Solar are looking like the leading lynch candidates.
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On August 15 2012 12:16 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 11:59 YourHarry wrote:
@Z-boson, posting filters is pretty easy. Why not.
@Shady Sands. You are accusing Solarsail of being hostile? You think scums are more likely to respond with hostility?
Thrawn on the other hand is busy posting fluffs and WIFOM statement like "It could be that you, as mafia, know he is town and are taking advantage of solar's emotional reactions by drawing them out even further and immediately sidetracking everyone onto solar's case."
##Vote Thrawn My last post might have seemed to be quite a stretch, but I am still of the opinion that solar's posts are somewhat likely to be emotional overreactions rather than scummy. Based on that opinion it's not a stretch to be suspicious of shady's motives and thus I made that post. All that being said, the more solar posts the more wary I am of him. All of his posts are sarcastic, attempts at humor, or name calling. Solar, you really need to make your posts more about content than your emotions so that if you are truly town we will be able to get a better read on you. Shady, the main focus of your attention on solar is based on this: Show nested quote +Imagine how scared of posting you would be if you'd signed up for your first game and rolled Mafia. Your posts would be short, infrequent, and not hold any information that disagrees with the general direction so as not to stand out. I'm not sure I'm getting why you think this is scummy, could you explain? His posts since that point are what caused me to be suspicious of him, but I never quite understood the reasoning behind your initial interrogation.
Not to repeat myself, but here's the reasoning:
And it didn't make sense to me. Why would Solar make this post if he's town? It's not pro-town to post on which style a scum might or might be playing. Then I read his post in context of the first post that stutters made, and it seemed like Solar is trying to soft accuse stutters--because stutters post was short, and didn't hold any information that disagrees with the general direction (as telling people to read a guide is about as plain as someone can get.)
The second possibility here, aside from soft-accusing stutters, is that Solar is trying to look participatory. He states this himself, later. Why would a townie try to look participatory from his first post onwards? No one has accused Solar of anything yet, so why the desire to look like he's contributing (as opposed to actually saying something of substance instead of guessing at what the scum must be feeling?)
Both these possibilities lead to a scum Solarsail.
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On August 15 2012 12:18 goodkarma wrote:
EBWOP:
Vanilla Townie is NMM XXII
Godfather is NMM XXIII
Thanks GK.
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On August 15 2012 12:27 YourHarry wrote:
Shady, do you agree?
Can you explain your reasoning?
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On August 15 2012 12:34 YourHarry wrote:
Right now is not the good time to explain. Really, you don't see it?
This is going to get you FoS'd YourHarry. Remember this?
If someone isn't forthcoming with information ("I have a read but I'm not going to share it because of blah") lynch them.
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On August 15 2012 13:20 YourHarry wrote:
Shady. I guess there is a small chance that I could be wrong. But if I am right, it is not a good idea to reveal this information. Let's move on for now.
What is the information? Why are you so sure he's town?
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On August 15 2012 13:41 YourHarry wrote:
Shady, unless GK or someone starts accusing me I standby my decision.
What do you think about mkfuba. He in one hand defends Solar against your case, but non-committingly adds that Solar is not acting against pro-town behavior. Scum mkfuba motivated to push Solar mislynch, expecting subsequent emotional and "snarky" behavior from Solar.
Why would you wait for GK to accuse you before changing your decision?
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On August 15 2012 13:41 YourHarry wrote:
Shady, unless GK or someone starts accusing me I standby my decision.
What do you think about mkfuba. He in one hand defends Solar against your case, but non-committingly adds that Solar is not acting against pro-town behavior. Scum mkfuba motivated to push Solar mislynch, expecting subsequent emotional and "snarky" behavior from Solar.
Again, why are you so sure Solar is town?
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EBWOP: I'm not sure what YH is doing when he keeps enigmatically referring to some magical way he knows Solarsail is town.
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3 people have still yet to post:
Golbat
Och
Jhuyt
YH, don't just take back your assertions when people ask for reasons--that's not pro-town casework. I want to know what made you think Solar was town.
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On August 15 2012 17:39 DarthPunk wrote:Hey guys I have been in the Hospital all day. I kept up with the thread somewhat from my phone. Shady SandsThe case that shady posted was incredibly weak. The first 'read' shady got certainly wasn't there. Even when shady clarified his reasoning it was a huge stretch. The whole 'soft accusing thing was nonsense and seems to be fabricated by shady out of thin air in order to pursue an agenda (this may be mis-lynching a townie or stimulating discussion) however something felt off about the whole thing, and was certainly not the same way shady was playing in XXII. I took a look through Shady's filter, the vast majority of posts contain one liner questions which add nothing to any cases. After this incredibly weak initial 'case' Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 10:15 Shady Sands wrote:On August 15 2012 10:10 Solarsail wrote:On August 15 2012 10:01 Shady Sands wrote:Solarsail, why post this? Imagine how scared of posting you would be if you'd signed up for your first game and rolled Mafia. Your posts would be short, infrequent, and not hold any information that disagrees with the general direction so as not to stand out. Because I've played one game of Mafia in my life, it was on another forum and that happened. But I forgot that "Newbie" in the title means that everyone is a fucking veteran and doesn't need to be told anything. I have no idea what a good post is, please enlighten me on how I can make completely flawless first posts with zero information. Stutters. Stutters said something perfectly townish which you tried to soft twist into scummy play. On August 15 2012 09:13 Stutters695 wrote:
I'm not going to quote the entire post, but I'd strongly recommend the town to read Hapahauli's post following XXIII(http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=355874¤tpage=58#1160). Was watching that game while I was waiting for this to start and based off of his scumhunting track record it contains some good advice. Since it's probable we will mislynch we need to get as much out of Day 1 as possible. Then you say: Imagine how scared of posting you would be if you'd signed up for your first game and rolled Mafia. Your posts would be short, infrequent, and not hold any information that disagrees with the general direction so as not to stand out. You're basically accusing stutters without accusing him directly. Why? He does none of the 'scum hunting' that he has been speaking at length about nor adds to his case with anything but OMGUS until others board the bandwagon. In fact almost his entire filter is Fluff. Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 10:16 Shady Sands wrote:On August 15 2012 10:12 mkfuba07 wrote:On August 15 2012 10:04 Shady Sands wrote:
Mkfuba, please post your posting history from the prior games. Thanks Is this normal? Just wonderin' XXIII - goon for 0.5 then vanilla townie from then on. It isn't normal, but it should speed up our scumhunting tremendously. Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 10:27 Shady Sands wrote:On August 15 2012 10:20 Solarsail wrote:On August 15 2012 10:15 Shady Sands wrote:On August 15 2012 10:10 Solarsail wrote:On August 15 2012 10:01 Shady Sands wrote:Solarsail, why post this? Imagine how scared of posting you would be if you'd signed up for your first game and rolled Mafia. Your posts would be short, infrequent, and not hold any information that disagrees with the general direction so as not to stand out. Because I've played one game of Mafia in my life, it was on another forum and that happened. But I forgot that "Newbie" in the title means that everyone is a fucking veteran and doesn't need to be told anything. I have no idea what a good post is, please enlighten me on how I can make completely flawless first posts with zero information. Stutters. Stutters said something perfectly townish which you tried to soft twist into scummy play. On August 15 2012 09:13 Stutters695 wrote:
I'm not going to quote the entire post, but I'd strongly recommend the town to read Hapahauli's post following XXIII(http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=355874¤tpage=58#1160). Was watching that game while I was waiting for this to start and based off of his scumhunting track record it contains some good advice. Since it's probable we will mislynch we need to get as much out of Day 1 as possible. Then you say: Imagine how scared of posting you would be if you'd signed up for your first game and rolled Mafia. Your posts would be short, infrequent, and not hold any information that disagrees with the general direction so as not to stand out. You're basically accusing stutters without accusing him directly. Why? Lol you think in my first serious attempt at a game I'd start implying stuff with multiple layers of meaning? I wanted to post something day one that would at least show I had read the TL guides and was making an effort to participate. Feel free to read into it like I'm a pro though. Go on. Everyone IS DOING THE SAME THING today, which is trying NOT TO DIE AT THE FIRST MENTION OF AN INCONSISTENCY. If you don't stop I will vote you. Also, could you please link your play from the other game from the other forum? So we can see your meta? Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 10:34 Shady Sands wrote:On August 15 2012 10:29 Solarsail wrote:On August 15 2012 10:23 Shady Sands wrote:On August 15 2012 10:20 Solarsail wrote:On August 15 2012 10:15 Shady Sands wrote:On August 15 2012 10:10 Solarsail wrote:On August 15 2012 10:01 Shady Sands wrote:Solarsail, why post this? Imagine how scared of posting you would be if you'd signed up for your first game and rolled Mafia. Your posts would be short, infrequent, and not hold any information that disagrees with the general direction so as not to stand out. Because I've played one game of Mafia in my life, it was on another forum and that happened. But I forgot that "Newbie" in the title means that everyone is a fucking veteran and doesn't need to be told anything. I have no idea what a good post is, please enlighten me on how I can make completely flawless first posts with zero information. Stutters. Stutters said something perfectly townish which you tried to soft twist into scummy play. On August 15 2012 09:13 Stutters695 wrote:
I'm not going to quote the entire post, but I'd strongly recommend the town to read Hapahauli's post following XXIII(http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=355874¤tpage=58#1160). Was watching that game while I was waiting for this to start and based off of his scumhunting track record it contains some good advice. Since it's probable we will mislynch we need to get as much out of Day 1 as possible. Then you say: Imagine how scared of posting you would be if you'd signed up for your first game and rolled Mafia. Your posts would be short, infrequent, and not hold any information that disagrees with the general direction so as not to stand out. You're basically accusing stutters without accusing him directly. Why? Lol you think in my first serious attempt at a game I'd start implying stuff with multiple layers of meaning? I wanted to post something day one that would at least show I had read the TL guides and was making an effort to participate. Feel free to read into it like I'm a pro though. Go on.Everyone IS DOING THE SAME THING today, which is trying NOT TO DIE AT THE FIRST MENTION OF AN INCONSISTENCY. If you don't stop I will vote you. Only scum focus on trying to survive. Town focuses on scumhunting. Why would you devote your first post to trying to show participation? Wow. Guess I'm scum then. ##Vote: Shady Sands Seriously this is not worth your amazing detective skills, case solved already, go look at someone else. Or just realise that I'm trying and shut up. LOL why are you voting me? Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 10:16 Shady Sands wrote:On August 15 2012 10:12 mkfuba07 wrote:On August 15 2012 10:04 Shady Sands wrote:
Mkfuba, please post your posting history from the prior games. Thanks Is this normal? Just wonderin' XXIII - goon for 0.5 then vanilla townie from then on. It isn't normal, but it should speed up our scumhunting tremendously. Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 10:40 Shady Sands wrote:
FYI
These are the players that haven't posted yet:
Darth
GK
Golbat
Jhuyt
Z-BosoN
Ochrow
YourHarry
As a reminder, please link your filters and roles from prior games. Thank you. Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 10:41 Shady Sands wrote:On August 15 2012 10:41 thrawn2112 wrote:On August 15 2012 10:35 Shady Sands wrote:On August 15 2012 10:32 thrawn2112 wrote:
Most of Solarsail's posts so far have contained quite a bit of emotion which has made his points less articulate than they otherwise would have been. Solarsail, if you are in fact town then I'm sure all the other townies would greatly appreciate it if you weren't so quick to use profanities and typing in all caps, it distracts from whatever arguments are being made. What's even more interesting that Solarsail didn't even try to defend himself from this accusation: Only scum focus on trying to survive. Town focuses on scumhunting. Why would you devote your first post to trying to show participation? Instead, he answered with sarcasm and an OMGUS vote. Sorry for the bother, but could you describe what OMGUS means? It's one of the several expressions I see used in the mafia forums of which I have no idea what they mean. http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=OMGUSOMGUS stands for "Oh My God, You Suck (for voting for me)!". it is sometimes used as a shorthand to indicate that you are voting for someone primarily because they voted for you. Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 10:43 Shady Sands wrote:On August 15 2012 10:36 Solarsail wrote:On August 15 2012 10:34 Shady Sands wrote:On August 15 2012 10:29 Solarsail wrote:On August 15 2012 10:23 Shady Sands wrote:On August 15 2012 10:20 Solarsail wrote:On August 15 2012 10:15 Shady Sands wrote:On August 15 2012 10:10 Solarsail wrote:On August 15 2012 10:01 Shady Sands wrote:
Solarsail, why post this?
[quote] Because I've played one game of Mafia in my life, it was on another forum and that happened. But I forgot that "Newbie" in the title means that everyone is a fucking veteran and doesn't need to be told anything. I have no idea what a good post is, please enlighten me on how I can make completely flawless first posts with zero information. Stutters. Stutters said something perfectly townish which you tried to soft twist into scummy play. On August 15 2012 09:13 Stutters695 wrote:
I'm not going to quote the entire post, but I'd strongly recommend the town to read Hapahauli's post following XXIII(http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=355874¤tpage=58#1160). Was watching that game while I was waiting for this to start and based off of his scumhunting track record it contains some good advice. Since it's probable we will mislynch we need to get as much out of Day 1 as possible. Then you say: Imagine how scared of posting you would be if you'd signed up for your first game and rolled Mafia. Your posts would be short, infrequent, and not hold any information that disagrees with the general direction so as not to stand out. You're basically accusing stutters without accusing him directly. Why? Lol you think in my first serious attempt at a game I'd start implying stuff with multiple layers of meaning? I wanted to post something day one that would at least show I had read the TL guides and was making an effort to participate. Feel free to read into it like I'm a pro though. Go on.Everyone IS DOING THE SAME THING today, which is trying NOT TO DIE AT THE FIRST MENTION OF AN INCONSISTENCY. If you don't stop I will vote you. Only scum focus on trying to survive. Town focuses on scumhunting. Why would you devote your first post to trying to show participation? Wow. Guess I'm scum then. ##Vote: Shady Sands Seriously this is not worth your amazing detective skills, case solved already, go look at someone else. Or just realise that I'm trying and shut up. LOL why are you voting me? To get you to stop quoting me. It's NOT HELPING ANYONE. Go post about someone else. How is quoting you not helping anyone? Why should I post about someone else? And how does your vote get me to stop quoting you? Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 11:34 Shady Sands wrote:On August 15 2012 11:33 goodkarma wrote:Regarding lynch all lurkers: Yeah. Got me last game as scum with that but tbh I would have been just about as active day one as town. I still don't really have day one figured out, so don't expect me to go into hyperactive mode for day one this game. In the context of last game, it was used as a last resort which imho is the only time it should be considered. Active discussion of suspects and the cases created day one are far more valuable than trying for a "lucky lynch." And regarding the vote for Shady Sands: If you're going to make a vote try to make at least a few "case points" behind it. Otherwise we're going to have a pretty ridiculous situation where everyone finger points each other over pretty much nothing. Look at Mordanis's (who was town) play in NMM XXII. He started the game with a WIFOM case, and lo and behold was actively accused all game. That suspicion could have been better spent elsewhere, so make your cases thorough before voting please. Lastly: Now would be a great time to discuss policy. The ever-popular "lurker-lynch" policy is a great point of discussion. Also, if there's an experience that comes to mind that you feel we could benefit from via a policy feel free to bring it up . GK, could you put up filters from XXIII and XXII? All these posts from his filter. No scum hunting which he has SAYS is the most important thing to do. Simply policy talk, OMGUS and one weak case. then after others have actually contributed to the thread: Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 11:53 Shady Sands wrote:Heading out for the night. Great job keeping up the pressure on Solarsail. + Show Spoiler [Thrawn] +On August 15 2012 11:18 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 10:35 Shady Sands wrote:On August 15 2012 10:32 thrawn2112 wrote:
Most of Solarsail's posts so far have contained quite a bit of emotion which has made his points less articulate than they otherwise would have been. Solarsail, if you are in fact town then I'm sure all the other townies would greatly appreciate it if you weren't so quick to use profanities and typing in all caps, it distracts from whatever arguments are being made. What's even more interesting that Solarsail didn't even try to defend himself from this accusation: Only scum focus on trying to survive. Town focuses on scumhunting. Why would you devote your first post to trying to show participation? Instead, he answered with sarcasm and an OMGUS vote. Most of the discussion right now is about solarsail. I don't think there's anything wrong with this because so far his posts haven't seemed very useful but we have still yet to hear from several players. He could easily be town and just reacting to everyone immediately jumping on his case as soon as the game starts. In that case it would be easy for the mafia players to roll in later and pile more suspicion on solar and therefore away from themselves. As far as I could see most of the drama was based on your post asking why he is devoting his first post to appearing as town rather than use it to scumhunt. I think it's worthwhile pointing out that at the time of his original posting there were only a few D1 posts so far and not much to scumhunt on. I think right now we are still in a waiting game, people that haven't spoken up yet need to! In addition to questioning why Solarsail is devoting his first post to appearing as town, we should also be asking why he made this comment: Imagine how scared of posting you would be if you'd signed up for your first game and rolled Mafia. Your posts would be short, infrequent, and not hold any information that disagrees with the general direction so as not to stand out. Right after Stutters made the short comment about Hapa's XXIII postscript to open the game. + Show Spoiler [mkfuba] +On August 15 2012 11:19 mkfuba07 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 11:08 Solarsail wrote:On August 15 2012 11:01 mkfuba07 wrote:On August 15 2012 10:55 Solarsail wrote:On August 15 2012 10:47 thrawn2112 wrote:On August 15 2012 10:37 Shady Sands wrote:On August 15 2012 10:32 thrawn2112 wrote:
Most of Solarsail's posts so far have contained quite a bit of emotion which has made his points less articulate than they otherwise would have been. Solarsail, if you are in fact town then I'm sure all the other townies would greatly appreciate it if you weren't so quick to use profanities and typing in all caps, it distracts from whatever arguments are being made. Quick question: If you've never played with Solarsail before, how would you know whether his points are less or more articulate than they could be? Seconding your point on the profanities though. I wouldn't know if they are more or less articulate than however he may have been in previous games, but for this purpose of this game it's making his posts a little unclear. Unclear could just mean unclear OR mafia, but the end result is that I pay more attention to his posts. O WOW IM BEING PAID ATTENTION TO ITS ALL I DREAMED OF Let's go with the meta-meta-analysis of tiny comments without adding anything new, that's sure to help. When Shady Sands stops the 'thing' he has going I'll vote for who you're "paying attention to" because that's an objective measure appreciated by town players everywhere. Alright, I feel like Shady was overreacting too, but there needs to be a starting point for discussion. Your reactions have been completely emotionally based and by virtue of not being pro-town, appear scummy by default. Might his posts have been a bit contrived? Yes. From what I can see, he's scumhunting no matter what. Whether he actually believes that your first few posts were scummy, your follow-up posts aren't helping town in any way. You say you'll vote for someone when someone else makes a case for them based on reasoning, so start trying to do that instead of screaming at Shady. > Drops in from ceiling > Why, yes, I can see some of argument A but I can also see some of argument B, aren't I so fair and reasonable good sirs > Let me give advice to you, for I am a kind and generous spirit ................ ...... .. . . . Dude, you're not helping your case. I didn't give anything that Shady had said any weight until you followed up his questions with overly emotional fluff and OMGUS. Your responses don't answer the questions he's raised, and provide nothing in the way of new content. While my read on you still says panicked townie, you have to cool off. Either respond to his questions seriously or make another case, or you're not helping town. Step it up. Playing the sarcastic martyr wins you no points. Great job keeping the discussion on track. Other than Solarsail, any other reads at the moment? @ Solarsail Note that when I began the entire train of questions at Solarsail, I was never directly accusing him of being scum: On August 15 2012 10:01 Shady Sands wrote:Solarsail, why post this? Imagine how scared of posting you would be if you'd signed up for your first game and rolled Mafia. Your posts would be short, infrequent, and not hold any information that disagrees with the general direction so as not to stand out. He immediately responded with hostility: On August 15 2012 10:10 Solarsail wrote:On August 15 2012 10:01 Shady Sands wrote:Solarsail, why post this? Imagine how scared of posting you would be if you'd signed up for your first game and rolled Mafia. Your posts would be short, infrequent, and not hold any information that disagrees with the general direction so as not to stand out. Because I've played one game of Mafia in my life, it was on another forum and that happened. But I forgot that "Newbie" in the title means that everyone is a fucking veteran and doesn't need to be told anything. I have no idea what a good post is, please enlighten me on how I can make completely flawless first posts with zero information. This is what I want everyone to focus on. Why would Solarsail do this? Shady agrees with everyone who is inclined to jump on his bandwagon and congratulates them on keeping up the pressure on solar. He adds very little if anything to his already weak case yet tries to maintain momentum on this obvious bandwagon. The conclusion of his 'case' is not even a statement. It is simply a question of his motive. Something which requires little commitment and which you may easily back away from following a mislynch. What concerns me Is that he openly states that he would like everyone to focus on this. Focusing everyones attention on the mislynch of a bad townie is the perfect situation for scum. then we have this. Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 12:07 Shady Sands wrote:On August 15 2012 11:59 YourHarry wrote:
@Z-boson, posting filters is pretty easy. Why not.
@Shady Sands. You are accusing Solarsail of being hostile? You think scums are more likely to respond with hostility?
Thrawn on the other hand is busy posting fluffs and WIFOM statement like "It could be that you, as mafia, know he is town and are taking advantage of solar's emotional reactions by drawing them out even further and immediately sidetracking everyone onto solar's case."
##Vote Thrawn I agree here. Thrawn's first post on the SK was extremely WIFOM: + Show Spoiler [Thrawn on SK] +On August 15 2012 09:55 thrawn2112 wrote:
Does anyone have experience playing in a game where a serial killer was a possible role? If there did end up being a serial killer, how big a role did they play and how high would you rate the importance and achieveability of sniffing them out early? In other words, would it be a worthwhile use of the town's time and investigation to try to figure out who, if anyone, is the serial killer? I can see how it would be very important to find out who is SK early on, but I also can see how it might be way more difficult than figuring out who is mafia, and thus not a good use of time. One distinction between the serial killer and the mafia is that the mafia are in communication and will be working together while the serial killer is separated from both town and mafia. Any player who is suspected to be not of town affiliation could either be mafia or SK, so while in either case they are a good target for lynching, having knowledge of their actual role would be way more valuable than just an uninformed hit on a supposed non-town player.
If there isn't an SK, then this line of discussion is a complete waste of time and we would be doing the mafia's job for them, which is why I asked if anyone has experience in games with an SK so that we all can get a better idea of what the risk/reward anaylsis should be on determining whether or not and when to focus on a potential SK.
Concerning shady sand's post, this is my first game so I have no previous history to reference. Why is Thrawn so concerned with getting town's attention on thinking about a SK, when SK is actually a bigger threat to scum than it is to town? His response to my question was yet more WIFOM: + Show Spoiler +On August 15 2012 10:11 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 09:59 Shady Sands wrote:On August 15 2012 09:55 thrawn2112 wrote:
Does anyone have experience playing in a game where a serial killer was a possible role? If there did end up being a serial killer, how big a role did they play and how high would you rate the importance and achieveability of sniffing them out early? In other words, would it be a worthwhile use of the town's time and investigation to try to figure out who, if anyone, is the serial killer? I can see how it would be very important to find out who is SK early on, but I also can see how it might be way more difficult than figuring out who is mafia, and thus not a good use of time. One distinction between the serial killer and the mafia is that the mafia are in communication and will be working together while the serial killer is separated from both town and mafia. Any player who is suspected to be not of town affiliation could either be mafia or SK, so while in either case they are a good target for lynching, having knowledge of their actual role would be way more valuable than just an uninformed hit on a supposed non-town player.
If there isn't an SK, then this line of discussion is a complete waste of time and we would be doing the mafia's job for them, which is why I asked if anyone has experience in games with an SK so that we all can get a better idea of what the risk/reward anaylsis should be on determining whether or not and when to focus on a potential SK.
Concerning shady sand's post, this is my first game so I have no previous history to reference. Why are you so worried about the SK? SK is a bigger threat to scum than to town. I am not really worried, but am trying to learn from other people's experiences if there is any reason to worry. I thought I was pretty clear that I was undecided on the importance of SK, and that if SK is unimportant in D1 it's a complete waste of time to worry about it. My current opinion is that it is something to worry about, but not on D1. Therefore I'm not going to continue posting about it until something happens along the lines of way too many unexplained town deaths. Note the following sentence: I thought I was pretty clear that I was undecided on the importance of SK, and that if SK is unimportant in D1 it's a complete waste of time to worry about it. My current opinion is that it is something to worry about, but not on D1. Then he says he won't post about it until it becomes obvious there is an SK. Basically Thrawn is fluffing up his posts here with a mostly useless discussion. I'd like to see Thrawn commit to a case. Until then, ## FoS Thrawn2112 Another weak case which follows the pattern established with his initial case on Solarsail. He takes a VERY EARLY post by thrawn and twists it into something that is at best a stretch. He accuses Thrawn of 'fluffing up his posts with mostly useless discussion' which shady himself is guilty of. And posts meaningless questions on why you would ask about a SK and presents them as some form of case. This is not the Shady Sands I saw in XXII, Something feels off. and thus, a FoS is declared. FoS## Shady Sands
Given that XXII was my very first game of Mafia ever, it should be expected that my posting style has grown up between now and then. If you look near the end of the XXII game, you'll see me doing now what I was doing then--prodding people with questions and keeping the town's posting rhythm extremely high.
That being said, I'm curious to know what you think about the Thrawn and Solar cases. You say they're weak. Why?
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On August 15 2012 16:03 Stutters695 wrote:Good work guys. I go to play league for a couple hours and come back to this. Regarding Solarsail:I didn't see that post as a soft accusation of me. My reasoning for thinking this is that it was the second post of the game. Likewise to a few other people, the thought hadn't occurred to me until Shady brought it up. From a scum perspective he has absolutely nothing to gain by accusing me of being scum that early. Taking this as anything more than a null read currently is a mistake IMO. What's more telling currently is his responses to what should have been a joke of pressure that early in Day 1. His sarcastic arguing and OMGUS vote leave me a lot more suspicious. @Solarsail You need to stop trolling and try and get some info or you're just asking to be lynched, regardless of wether or not you're town. @Shady Sands In your first post you say that of policy that we should "stop OGMUS wars" (emphasis mine, kept the whole quote for context). Yet other than pre-game banter your only posts until halfway through the 2nd page of your filter are all about confrontations to Solarsail/defending your accusation of a very, very weak case. Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 09:42 Shady Sands wrote:+ Show Spoiler [Thoughts on XXIII] +I'm still really mad at Hapa for essentially winning on luck in XXIII. Had GK actually spoken up in the game, Hapa wouldn't have had the GK lynch to work off of and we scum could have safely NK'd him without worrying about a medic save. Howdy town. Let's kick some scum ass. A few policy notes: - Lynch all lurkers. That's how town caught scum in XXIII. But don't overly rely on this, scum can fake D1 activity pretty well.
- Observe, observe, and observe. If someone acts strangely, lynch them. This includes checking everyone's metas from previous games.
- All players here--please list all the games you have played previously, as well as which roles you played, along with filters for your posts. Here are my links:
My XXIII Filter, where I was scum
My XXII Filter, where I was Mason with Keirathi
- If someone isn't forthcoming with information ("I have a read but I'm not going to share it because of blah") lynch them.
- If someone isn't actively pushing new cases with their posts, press them on it.
- Stop OMGUS wars. They're not productive. If two people are OMGUSing each other, tell them to stop, don't just sit there and let them keep yelling at each other. The only ones who win off mass OMGUSing are scum.
That's all for now, good luck everyone. So far you've accused Solarsail for soft-accusing me and focused on administrative stuff (getting filters, posting who hasn't posted yet) for a combined 14 posts. I understand that you're trying to get conversation started which is great, but I noticed you missed or ignored Z-BosoN's post directed towards you about Meta-Analysis. He's asked this twice and you've ignored him both times. Show nested quote +@Shady SandsLynch all lurkers. That's how town caught scum in XXIII. But don't overly rely on this, scum can fake D1 activity pretty well.
Observe, observe, and observe. If someone acts strangely, lynch them. This includes checking everyone's metas from previous games.
All players here--please list all the games you have played previously, as well as which roles you played, along with filters for your posts. Here are my links:
My XXIII Filter, where I was scum
My XXII Filter, where I was Mason with Keirathi Regarding meta. As mentioned in earlier mafias, metas are good to keep in mind, but they are weak to base your arguments on. What we want to look at people's earlier games are their reasoning, their ferocity in detecting and attacking suspicious behavior, and their general ability to detect flaws in arguments. Even with equal roles, one player will most likely not post in the same manner or the same tone as in past games. My question to you is: Why do you feel that getting filters is so necssary? The best way to catch scum is still to hunt in tthe thread with meta-analysis only serving as the final nail in the coffin. The repeated posts on this makes me feel like there is the possibility that you're using this to be active without really hunting (1 weak accusation and 1 glaringly obvious accusation so far). Your overall level of activity makes me believe this isn't the case but I want to hear your explination.
I find filters a good way to figure out how people react to the stress of either being rightfully or wrongfully accused. For example, I tend to look at how someone responds when they're scum and they're being pressured, to then figure out better and more efficient ways to tunnel them and trap them. I think that every townie needs to have this sort of information on all other townies, in order to make this thread as stressful and difficult a place for scum to post as possible.
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On August 15 2012 15:18 Golbat wrote:
Hey guys! This is my second game (Not counting XXIII where I /obs'd after the reset). Hopefully I play better than I did in my last game t.t
So far, I think that the scummiest person i've seen is thrawn. He's not really said much of substance, which is of course understandable being so early in the game, but his fixation on making sure people know there could be an SK in the game is a little bit strange. The other person I find a little bit unnerving is Shady Sands. I feel like after the fiasco that was day 1 of XXII, Shady might have learned that new players who make emotionally-charged defenses of themselves and generally overreact to being targeted by someone is a trait of someone who is town. Perhaps Shady preparing a wagon that is simple to wash your hands of after the flip ("Well he WAS acting pretty scummy")
Golbat, please link your filter, thanks.
Good points on the XXII read. The biggest frustration with Solar isn't that he's being emotional, it's that he's offering no logical defense of his own posting even though the entire town is asking for it.
As for Thrawn, he's someone to watch out for, sure. Aside from his SK fixation though, what else about his posting strikes you as odd? Why is he your scummiest read?
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On August 15 2012 16:56 Ochrow wrote:
I feel like the general consensus is that shady was reading too much into Solar's first post, as to any motives behind that I can't yet speak. And along the same lines everyone seems to feel that Solar is now playing a pro-town style be this scummy or not I feel it is something we need to watch for as even if he isn't scum I think it will sidetrack a lot of discussions and hinder the scumhunting in general.
How can you say that everyone seems to feel that Solar is now playing a pro-town style? Who has said this?
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EPT
